Ok this problem has shown its ugly head in my game.
I have a play that has just gotten the Fabricate spell and plans on useing it to create master work swords and armor.
The spell reads as fallows
Fabricate
School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 5; Domain artifice 5
CASTINGCasting Time see text
Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)
EFFECTRange close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
DESCRIPTIONYou convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.
Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected by the spell.
He has the right craft skills and with his curent spells per day he can cast that spell 3 times a day.
If i am reading the craft rules rigth he is with in the rules ...yet a sword smith takes at least a month to make one standard sword. This means my player puts every sword & armor smith out of work in short order, then crashes the market in that city shortly after.
Am I wrong ...have i missed something?
Any help with this problem would be great
it's not that i want it to work .....I don't want him to walk into a city and create 3 master work sword a day for the week of down time the party takes, and put common folk out of work and crash the economy of a city as he floods the market with master work equipment.
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He is giving away casting of a 5th level spell?
I think that the local wizards may go after him for undercutting them. Per the PRD, getting a spell cast in town normally costs Caster level × spell level × 10 gp. So a level 12 wizard casting a 5th level spell would be 1080 GP base, + the cost of components (and that is for a standard sword +more if masterwork). The way I see it, the cost to have a masterwork longsword created via spell would be about 1200 GP.
You are correct... fabricate is better than mundane crafting in all situations (inexplicably).
However, if introducig 21 masterwork swords into the market crashes your economy, then the town must be in real trouble when a wandering salesman ventures into town.
And as Happler said, he could probably make a lot more by casting other spells for the populace.
He is giving away casting of a 5th level spell?
I think that the local wizards may go after him for undercutting them. Per the PRD, getting a spell cast in town normally costs Caster level × spell level × 10 gp. So a level 12 wizard casting a 5th level spell would be 1080 GP base, + the cost of components (and that is for a standard sword +more if masterwork). The way I see it, the cost to have a masterwork longsword created via spell would be about 1200 GP.
12 × 5 × 10 gp = 600, not 1080.
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it's not that i want it to work .....I don't want him to walk into a city and create 3 master work sword a day for the week of down time the party takes, and put common folk out of work and crash the economy of a city as he floods the market with master work equipment.
Let's do some math:
Our guy is selling masterwork longswords.
Purchase price 315 gp. sell price 157 gp and 5 sp (he is subject tot he standard selling rules unless he open a shop)
Production cost: 1/3 of the item final price in raw materials, so 105 gp (he still need to get the raw materials, even with fabricate)
Net profit for each sword sold: 52 gp and 5 sp (and he will have to go around the shops in the city trying to sell his wares)
This guy is at least level 9.
If he was to sell his spellcasting services he would get, for a level 5 spell like fabricate, a minimum of 450 gp for each casting.
Honestly if your player is willing to say that he get 4.725 gp for a month of work casting fabricate 3 times a day and then taking the time to sell the stuff, more power to him.
The day something untoward happen and all his 5th level spell slots are used up by Fabricate spells he will wise up.
it's not that i want it to work .....I don't want him to walk into a city and create 3 master work sword a day for the week of down time the party takes, and put common folk out of work and crash the economy of a city as he floods the market with master work equipment.
He has any way to know that the downtime will be exactly a week?
or it is "approximately a week but we could hit the road earlier or later" or "something could happen in the meantime" and so on?|
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12 × 5 × 10 gp = 600, not 1080.He is giving away casting of a 5th level spell?
I think that the local wizards may go after him for undercutting them. Per the PRD, getting a spell cast in town normally costs Caster level × spell level × 10 gp. So a level 12 wizard casting a 5th level spell would be 1080 GP base, + the cost of components (and that is for a standard sword +more if masterwork). The way I see it, the cost to have a masterwork longsword created via spell would be about 1200 GP.
You are correct. Stupid typo (been a monday and a half here).
But my point still stands. He is still massively undercutting his value.
12 × 5 × 10 gp = 600, not 1080.He is giving away casting of a 5th level spell?
I think that the local wizards may go after him for undercutting them. Per the PRD, getting a spell cast in town normally costs Caster level × spell level × 10 gp. So a level 12 wizard casting a 5th level spell would be 1080 GP base, + the cost of components (and that is for a standard sword +more if masterwork). The way I see it, the cost to have a masterwork longsword created via spell would be about 1200 GP.
Yeah, the math is a bit wonky, but the wizard would charge 600 plus the cost of material components, which in this case is 1/3 market cost of the item, which is 105 (300 mwork + 15 sword).
HOWEVER, when crafting masterwork things, the masterwork is a separate component and receives its own check. If you want to clamp down on this, force the caster to cast the spell twice. Once for the sword and once for the masterwork component. The crafter must make 2 separate craftings, after all.
So now the cost is 600+5(sword)+600+100(masterwork)=1305gp to hire a wizard to craft a masterwork longsword for you. This is nearly 4 times the price the regular smith is charging. The wizard does it faster, yeah, but at a much higher price.
And if your PCs are going into towns and crashing their economies by undercutting local merchants and casters, then they will find themselves to be unwelcome guests VERY soon. Towns have a vested interest in protecting their economies, and will do so even at the cost of higher priced goods (see: every protectionist tarrif in history). Make them pay taxes to the local government if they do this, or have the guard flat out not let them in, or have the local merchants and wizards hire some other adventuring parties to even out the competition (that is, kill your PCs).
In other words, turn it into an adventure hook.
Shouldn't he be out saving the world or something? In most settings 10th level wizards don't grow on trees. They don't disrupt the world economy because there might only be a few dozen wizards at that power scale IN the world, and most have better things do do with their life then make a few gold. And as others have pointed out, it's not even that much gold. He could be using that time to scribe spells, research stuff, craft useful magic items, etc...
Let him ruin the economy.
Then have him deal with the consequences.
How many can he sell a day anyway?
The average person isn't off buying masterwork weapons; he'd probably make as much/more selling fast moving consumer goods like horseshoes, buckets, plows and shovels.
How many can he sell a day anyway?
The average person isn't off buying masterwork weapons; he'd probably make as much/more selling fast moving consumer goods like horseshoes, buckets, plows and shovels.
Agreed. Not to mention word is going to get out he's not paying taxes to the local authorities.
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Agreed. Not to mention word is going to get out he's not paying taxes to the local authorities.
Undercutting the Artisans and Craftsmens Guilds.
Undercutting the local Mages and Spellcasters.Not paying Sales taxes.
Not paying the local Thieves Guild their due.
/body found face down in the river within a week.
As he plans to use this trick to build the next set of bridges for the partys kingdom upkeep phase of their King maker adventure ....it is all wonderfull food for thought.
Thank you
If any of these groups have characters of higher than lvl 9, this money is a paltry sum and no one is going to hunt him down.
Well he's a 9th level character sure, but flooding a market and disrupting economies is going to get ugly.
Just for giggles ...does anyone know what the taxes & dues for setting up a shop is under the pathfinder rules system?
Just for giggles ...does anyone know what the taxes & dues for setting up a shop is under the pathfinder rules system?
This of course would depend on if you are renting/buying a stall or an actual storefront :)
I don't think there are rules for this.
If i am reading the craft rules rigth he is with in the rules ...yet a sword smith takes at least a month to make one standard sword. This means my player puts every sword & armor smith out of work in short order, then crashes the market in that city shortly after.
Am I wrong ...have i missed something?
There is absolutely no possible way that the player is going to have any significant impact on the economy in a week. Not to mention the fact that he still going to have find someone to buy the swords. Look at it this way: There are only 3 possible states for the local economy in regards to MW weapons.
1. The local smiths are making more MW weapons than the local economy can absorb in a week. Result: Nobody buys the PC's weapons, no effect on economy.
2. The local smiths are making fewer MW weapons than the local economy can absorb in a week. Result: Somebody buys the PC's weapons, no effect on economy.
3. The local smiths are making exactly the right number of MW weapons that the local economy can absorb in a week. Result: Absolute worst case is that the smiths lose a week of income, negligible effect on local economy, even assuming that the local authorities do not intervene.
Seriously, don't worry about it. Contrary to popular belief, it is practically impossible for any small group of people to have more than a temporary effect on a local economy, no matter their wealth, even if they are trying to. They simple cannot consume enough to make any appreciable difference over the short term.
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Captain Xenon touched indirectly an interesting point: the wizard can produce multiple blades with one casting?
The spell say "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material." and the quantity produced is based on volume. So technically it can produce multiple items, but on the other hand he will not be capable to produce a complete sword in one casting.
A sword is made of several pieces made from different materials, the hilt is made generally by 2 wood pieces with a leather cover, the hilt is often bronze.
So depending by the interpretation he can need one casting to produce the blades, one to produce the hilts and another to produce the crosspieces, then he need to assemble the pieces by hand (technically Fabricate will not work with different materials).
He would produce a larger quantity of swords but it will be a more involved process.
I prefer the non RAW interpretation where you can build 1 finished sword with one casting but the limitation about working with only 1 kind of material is an interesting one.
Note: that you will have to start with already produced steel, BTW, not with iron and coal. And with bronze, not copper and tin.
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The cost of a shop.
If we take the cost of the raw materials (iron, coal, and so on) we don't get the production cost of a item (i.e. we don't use 5 gp of iron and coal to produce a sword), so we can assume that in the production costs the taxes and shop expenses are already included.
As Captain Xenon pointed out "a cubic foot of iron is 450 pounds, or 45 gold worth of iron," and we can do plenty of sword blades with 450 pound of iron.
You can be a lot more damaging to the economy than that. Take Craft Papermaking. Check the price of paper in the Core Rulebook. Compare that to cubic feet. Note the number of board feet in your average tree and the fact that Fabricate specifically mentions building a bridge out of trees. Make a huge industrial ream of paper instead. Profit!
The trouble with this equation is, while it's perfectly logical that people would do this, it means you're very quickly playing in Eberron instead of Golarion or some other world to have the industrial revolution replaced by magic.
The solution is to simply explain the world to players and ask them not to break it too badly.
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You can be a lot more damaging to the economy than that. Take Craft Papermaking. Check the price of paper in the Core Rulebook. Compare that to cubic feet. Note the number of board feet in your average tree and the fact that Fabricate specifically mentions building a bridge out of trees. Make a huge industrial ream of paper instead. Profit!
The trouble with this equation is, while it's perfectly logical that people would do this, it means you're very quickly playing in Eberron instead of Golarion or some other world to have the industrial revolution replaced by magic.
The solution is to simply explain the world to players and ask them not to break it too badly.
Medieval/renaissance technology. you don't make paper with cellulose from trees.
You use rag paper made from hemp, linen or cotton fibres, so the raw material cost is way higher.
Alkenstar's tech goes up to mid-1800s, so it's in the realm of possibility.
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Alkenstar's tech goes up to mid-1800s, so it's in the realm of possibility.
Barely, For librarian work 1830 is the reference year for the use of cellulose paper.
To know the right process you need to be from Alkensta, have the skill and then your paper is of noticeably lower quality. It will nor sell at the same price of rag paper.
I, if I was a wizard or a scribe, would not use cellulose paper for anything important. Similarly I doubt it is appropriate for scroll use.
A sheet of rag paper can resist for centuries with little care. The early kinds of cellulose paper would become brittle and brown in a few years.
Even today most legal documents are written on rag paper.
Just for giggles ...does anyone know what the taxes & dues for setting up a shop is under the pathfinder rules system?This of course would depend on if you are renting/buying a stall or an actual storefront :)
I don't think there are rules for this.
I've seen it done with a Profession: Merchant check, just like anyone else making a weeks wages. It does not matter if you are selling pies or magic swords, your profit is the same. You figure Magic shops are going to have a higher overhead (more security, bribes, etc) and do a very low volume of high price items. The guy selling pies on the other hand can work off the back of a wagon, just needs a stern glare to keep the kids off his wares, and his bribes consist of a free slice to the guards wandering around.
Remember, we're not playing "Office & Accountants". The economic rules in Pathfinder are sketchy at best. I understand that sometimes things tend towards the economic/logistical side of things, but if you push too hard, things break. Particularly when you take modern world-views and put them into a psudo-midevil fantasy world.
Between raw materials, the chance of failing craft checks, and what not he won't be making enough money to rock the boat.
If the worst thing you have a caster do in their down time is make some master work swords instead of a metric ton of scrolls/potions/who knows what other horrible magic item the only thing you want to do is encourage them.
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Selling hundreds, if not thousands of fabricated weapons in a week is easy. Simply make a deal with the local lord or king. They have armies that are constantly in need of upkeep.
Tell him you will equip his army with masterwork armor, weapons, horshoes, tools, and anything else he might need at its normal value. However, tell him that, unlike the royal armorers/weaponsmiths/blacksmiths, you can do this in three days (one day to get the materials, one day to craft the gear, and the third day to equip the lord's men).
Sure you will piss off the local guilds and such for stealing their business away, but now you are under the protection of the local lord.
Props to people who make the offer to an underdog army a week before they go to war against a superior force. Further props to the people if they were the ones who started the war from behind the scenes.
ok so what i'm getting mainly is that the player would still need to make the craft check ...other wise the spell is wasted and nothing is made?
The way the player is taking it ...is that the fabricate spell takes the place of the skill check, but he would still need ranks in the skill to use the spell.
looking over his character sheet ...at this point he only has a +6 in craft weapon smith and a +6 in craft silver smith(aka jewlery).
Is the player right?
Wouldn't the towns economy spike, seeing as the town couldn't afford all the swords in the first place, the wizard would either keep them for later , or sell them cheaply, meaning the merchants/blacksmiths could sell it to future visitors for extra profit.
Remember that merchants don't have infinite pockets like in a video game, they only buy what they can get a profit on, meaning a small town with one smith and a few visitors would MAYBE buy one or two.
ok so what i'm getting mainly is that the player would still need to make the craft check ...other wise the spell is wasted and nothing is made?
The last line of Fabricate says: you must make an appropriate Craft check (skill check) to fabricate articles with a high degree of craftsmanship.
So they'd need to succeed at these checks for making masterwork swords.
ok so what i'm getting mainly is that the player would still need to make the craft check ...other wise the spell is wasted and nothing is made?
The last line of Fabricate says: you must make an appropriate Craft check (skill check) to fabricate articles with a high degree of craftsmanship.
So they'd need to succeed at these checks for making masterwork swords.
But they can always take 10, unless someone has them at arrowpoint and threatening to shoot them unless they cast fabricate to create the MW sword.