| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wierd. I thought Golarion already had psionics.
They do... in the background. Paizo has yet to actually make any mechanics / classes that use them though, which is what I think all the clamor is about. But then again, as many people have pointed out, there is the Dreamscarred Psionicist book. (I'm not actually interested in psions in my pathfinder so, I've never actually checked it out)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...you need mechanics to play a psionic character?
Wraithstrike speaking as a representative of power points fans:
If you try to tell them to pretend the sorcerer is a psion they will mind blast you, don't do it. <Teleports Away>
Ha, worse than that.
I tell them to pretend the Wizard is a psion. :)
LOL. If it was not so early and people were sleep the nerdrage from that would shut down the website.
Gunslingers and psionists? Psshaw. They're just archers and spellcasters.
Monks? -- Now they scare me.
Good god: did the most broken-at-high-level class need to get any stronger? I guess it did.
Rogue?
|
They blow fort and will saves just as fast as they always did -- a rogue could spend every talent he has on personal defense abilities and still not have as much ass-saving class bling as a monk gets for free.
From all the whining I hear on other threads about how weak rogues are, if UC made 'em better, then they must be only catching up.
I don't know much about this psionic hoo-ha, but is it the kind of thing that could just be a class feature, like with Ki and Grit? Or is there some huge convoluted system established around it?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
People assumed the 3.5 version was bad because the previous versions were.No, we thought the 3.5 version was bad because the 3.5 psion took the sorcerer (who was already in the upper third of class power), increased his flexibility by replacing slots with power points, made all his spells still and silent for free, gave him a bonus feat progression, and then pretended this was "balanced".
Sure, it wasn't "broken" in the sense that it failed horribly if you tried to play it, but that's because it was the magic system, just powered up.
I agree, people assumed the 3.5 version was bad because they didn't know the rules.
Being published by a third party :p
The comments Paizo has made regarding psionics taught me that even if they did do it, I likely will not like the end results.Respectfully disagree about the Dreamscarred stuff, but differing tastes gonna differ.
There's a lot of "Paizo, do psi!" and not a lot of people making pitches or clearly articulating what they want or why.
I forget who but someone in Paizo stated that they thought psions were the most overpowered class in 3e and that if they did psionics it would be tied to vancian casting.
Thus, even if Paizo did do Psionics, I likely would not like the end results.
notsureiftrolling.jpg
I can never tell on these forums. There's a few folks here who complain about clerics being too weak - and they legit mean it. Hell we have a thread going on now about how wizards aren't versatile enough.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have always liked Psionics in fantasy as its always been there :) They shamans seem to have had it and the Celts and such. Dreams and Visions. Psychic abilities are a staple of fantasy. Golarion has had Psi from the beginning with the Vudrans, Irori, Half Elves being their Psi race and the other planet in their solar system having a Psionic based life ecosystem.
Dreamscarred Press has a great Pathfinder Psionic System so why not run with that. It works rather well and is balanced :)
I'm all for Psionics as long as they follow the traditional Vancian style of resource allotment.
3.0 and 3.5 both aptly demonstrated "spell points" mechanics break the game, in this gamer's opinion. The whole "it's balanced against as long as you run the prescribed number of encounter per day!" argument stops holding true when you reach the levels where it literally is possible for one high level spell to effectively end an encounter, or neuter it to the degree where you don't need to use any more spells and powers.
Psionicist-style character tend to overshadow the rest of the party when they're allowed to "go nova" in any capacity, and that behavior needs to be eliminated before I would feel comfortable supporting any push for psionics. That generally means the elimination of "x-point" mechanics and a push into the same mold as the remaining casters use.
|
I have to politely disagree with those who have said that 3.5 psionics was really no different than the magic system just the same concepts re-named. As someone who played a psychic warrior to 20th level in an Age of Worms Campaign the psionics system was much more flexible than the magic system. The idea of power points and being able to apply them as you will was in my opinion a great idea and actually played a lot more like how fantansy magic is represented in most modern novels. You have a limited amount of "juice" you could ration it all day doing little things (effectively the same as the vancian system) or blow it all at once exhausting your power because you really need if if you are going to survive that Dragon or other BBG.
That being said if you read Paizo books carefully (I specifically noticed this in Ultimate Combat but maybe Ultimate Magic as well)a lot of the powers from the psionic system are now spells. So we don't have a psionic system from paizo but a lot of the powers that were so fun to use are now spells that we can use.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm all for Psionics as long as they follow the traditional Vancian style of resource allotment.
3.0 and 3.5 both aptly demonstrated "spell points" mechanics break the game, in this gamer's opinion. The whole "it's balanced against as long as you run the prescribed number of encounter per day!" argument stops holding true when you reach the levels where it literally is possible for one high level spell to effectively end an encounter, or neuter it to the degree where you don't need to use any more spells and powers.
Psionicist-style character tend to overshadow the rest of the party when they're allowed to "go nova" in any capacity, and that behavior needs to be eliminated before I would feel comfortable supporting any push for psionics. That generally means the elimination of "x-point" mechanics and a push into the same mold as the remaining casters use.
Psionics-under-3.5/XPH weren't broken, even ignoring the encounters per day argument. Build any damn 3.5/XPH psion you like and adhere to all the rules and power point limitations, and 9 times out of 10, I can out-"Nova" you with a sorcerer. No sweat. As respectfully as possible, there is no psionics-only "Nova"-ing to be eliminated. A player willing to attempt this behavior with a psion will do the same damn thing with a sorcerer, wizard, summoner, druid, or cleric. Don't blame bad behavior of a certain type of player on a PC class.
If anyone doesn't like the power point mechanics, or having another set of non-Vanican rules to master, or feels psionics is "too sci-fi" (which many disagree with it)... fine. Play your games with whatever works for you. But don't tar and feather the 3.5/XPH psionics system because it is "broken"... because it isn't.
|
|
and I know people will scream nova, nova, nova but really power gamers are going to find ways to break the system no matter what it is. Really, there was no power creep in the vast majority of the psionic system. Yes a 15th level psion could do 15 d6 damage with a 1st level power but he would need to use a pile of power points to do it. This was effectively the same as a 15th level mage doing 15 d6 damage with a 7th level spell delayed blast fireball.
Now I am sure that someone will jump on me with 10 pages of statistical analysis that required a masters in accounting and 10 years of experience not to mention many hours of work that will show just how wrong I am, but that it kinda my point. I am not a power gamer. I have never done an analyis of optimal feat usage or damage output per round and no one ever complained that my psionic character overshadowed everyone else. In fact the archer, scout, rogue, wiz, arcane archer that was doing hundreds of points of damage per round by level 15+ put my guy to shame. Power gamers will find ways to break any system. Psionics in this regard was no different.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Few issues are more divisive then Guns and Psionics, well perhaps the “edition wars” were more divisive, but thankfully they are over now.
Bwahahahahahahahawhahahahahahaha!
Aaaahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
:D
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
[ Until then I think they should let Dreamscarred run with it for as long as possible.
How good it is? I like psionics in most RPG games but I never found a version I liked much for D&D/AD&D.
So if it is really good and mesh well with Pathfinder it would be worth buying it up.
d20pfsrd contains the Psionics Unleashed material.
There will also be a Psionics Expanded book with lots of extra psionics material. It is right now being released in pieces, each new part focussing on something specific. Mind over Body was about psionic healing, Find the Mark about psionic archery. You can "subscribe" to those parts and you get them all, and the final book itself for the same price as the final book alone will cost (so you basically get previews).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wraithstrike speaking as a representative of power points fans:
If you try to tell them to pretend the sorcerer is a psion they will mind blast you, don't do it. <Teleports Away>
Teleporting won't help you. We'll just reroute your teleport.
What happens to you then depends on what discipline the guy who has you is fondest of. Maybe you're in the metaphorical clutches of a kineticist, who'll either just turn the air around (and in) your body into superheated poison gas, or he'll take control of your body and break every bone you have (if he's nice, you're getting to choose the order - alphabetically, directionally, from least to most painful, etc). A nomad might teleport parts of you away. The real fun comes with telepaths, though. Mind blast is too good for you, you know. They'll probably mess your mind up so bad that you'll experience soothing joy at the sight of chthonian horrors straight from the Cthulhu Mythos. }>
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Paizo has hinted that psionics exists Golarion, it's more common with the Vudrani and I think one of the other planets.
Castrovel, IIRC?
My husband is actually at work on an alternate psionics system in the form of feat trees. Not sure when he'll be ready to actually show it to the public, but even so.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Build any damn 3.5/XPH psion you like and adhere to all the rules and power point limitations, and 9 times out of 10, I can out-"Nova" you with a sorcerer.
Listen to the chaos-pretender!
To elaborate on the point: Manifesters (i.e. those classes that manifest psionic powers instead of casting spells) have a power point pool (how high that is depends on your class/level and ability score/level). Powers have levels just like spells, but they also have an associated (minimum) pp cost equal to (2*level)-1 (1 for 1st, 3 for 2nd, 5 for 3rd etc).
However, a lot of powers can be augmented, which means you pay more power points but the power's effect is increased (which is an advantage in some instances, such like a charm person-equivalent turning into a charm-monster equivalent if you pay extra, but in other instances this is actually a drawback, since damage usually depends on how many PP you want to shell out, not your manifester level)
You cannot pay more PP for a single power than your manifester level.
It's easy to see where this is going: A psion can "go nova", manifest a power at full power each round (or more than one if you use Quicken Power - which is the psi-version of Quicken Spell) and run out of power points pretty fast. Once that happens, you're mostly out of juice (the psi classes get some extra goodies similar to bloodline or school powers nowadays).
So on the surface, it looks like psi users can go nova like nobody else: You can blow all your PP on maximum power powers in a few rounds and then have no PP left at all. So you have just play brightest star for 10 rounds or something like that, but now you're useless.
However, sorcerers, while at first looking incapable of doing this (since they can't convert lower-level slots into higher-level ones), are actually just as good or even better at it, when you remember one important detail:
Low-level spells are a lot less useful then high-level ones! The highest spell level you have is where you find the real fun stuff. One level below tends to be decent, too. And maybe the one after, but already, the drop in power is notable.
To crunch some numbers here:
Let's look at a sorcerer and a psion. Let's assume level 10 in both instances, and a 24 in the relevant ability score (usually charisma for the sorcerer, and int for the psion).
The psion will have 123 power points (though that only includes PP from the class and ability score - they might get more from their race, favoured class options, or Feats). Since they can blow no more than 10 pp on any power, they could nova for 12 rounds and then be virtually out of juice.
The sorcerer will have 4 5th-level slots and 6 4th-level slots. That's 10 spells of the highest levels.
While this comparison ignores 24 other spell slots (8 each for levels 1-3), the thing is that once you blew those 4th and 5th-level slots, you are, in many ways, not much better than a 6th-level character (sure, you get more spells than the 6th-level sorcerer, and of course your spells pack a higher punch, but you can't do the higher-level stuff other 10th-level sorcerers can do any more).
I have seen this behaviour: The same people who will blast everything with fully augmented psi powers until they're empty will often also use their highest-level stuff at every opportunity, and when they have depleted their highest levels, they call for a rest, since these low-level toys don't cut it.
The prudent player, however, will augment only when necessary, will usually have powers that work well without augmentation, and will generally not fry every kobold commoner they see with everything they've got and then some, just like they won't blindly use their highest-level slots at every opportunity.
My husband is actually at work on an alternate psionics system in the form of feat trees.
I never liked feat trees for magic or psionics. I don't think psionics is something you just dabble in, and Pathfinder is a class-based system, so delegating it to a secondary system like Feats instead of the primary system (= class abilities) trivialises it.
It can make sense, like magic in Midnight, but there, magic wasn't supposed to be as easy and ubiquitous as in your usual D&D setting.
While I am glad Paizo took a look at guns, developed rules and put them into the Ultimate combat, as a matter of personal taste, I do not like guns in what I think of as a “Sword and Sorcery” setting. I have a violent dislike for guns So I won’t be allowing guns in my home campaigns, no matter how much whining I get.
You're not talking about Golarion being a 'Sword & Sorcery' setting? Because guns are written into it. As is technology, and through Numeria, psionics should come about.
I love the fact that Paizo develops rules for everything, rather than just Sword & Sorcery.
I don't think Paizo should do a psionics book. But that's not because I don't like psionics, it's because the Dreamscarred stuff is perfectly fine.
I do, however, want Paizo to do some Psionics stuff, like more mention of it, especially since a book about the other planets is in the work - Castrovel is supposed to be crawling with psi.
They should just use the Dreamscarred stuff.
I would even go as far as asking for a whole AP or at least linked group of modules that focuses on Castrovel or Vudra and that considers Psionics Unleashed as a core book.
I want that partially because I like psionics, and partially because it would really piss those naysayers off. People with that "I don't like it so nobody should have it" mentality must be annoyed and punished as often, as hard, and as cruelly as possible! :P
Remember: The Pathfinder Chronicles creed is "Best of all possible worlds". Inclusion, not exclusion.
Maybe Telepathic attacks take place in a pseudo alternate reality (like a Decker running the Matrix in Shadowrun or like 'The Will and the Way' (an old Darksun add-on)).
God no. Never. Never again.
I have played a Decker with the Matrix book. That was my single worst gaming experience with regard to the system itself (I've had worse experience but those were with creepy guys and not relevant to the system).
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I just wish that if people are going to bring Psionics into the game, that they exercise their god given imagination and create a different set of powers/abilities rather than just copy the Wizard!
Then the wizard is going to have to lose some spells.
What are the classical psionic style powers. Lots of telekinesis and telepathy, I bet.
Detect thoughts? Teleport? Levitation? Telepathic communication? telekenises? These are all wizard spells.
What about your "Firestarter" style psion. Fire blasts and fire bolts and fire...balls?
See, there's no niche protection when everything must be a spell. You want psionics to have different powers then the wizard - like what? What niche of magic does the wizard not currently claim?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, No. Turning it into its own mini game inside the game is a bad idea.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, No. Turning it into its own mini game inside the game is a bad idea.Seriously? So, saying "the defender throws up a wall to defend himself against your attack" "I turn into a mouse and seek to find a way through" etc. is a bad idea? Why?
For the same reason it's bad in Shadowrun while decking/hacking... the rest of the party stands around twiddling their thumbs while the psions go at each other.
For the same reason it's bad in Shadowrun while decking/hacking... the rest of the party stands around twiddling their thumbs while the psions go at each other.Yeah, No. Turning it into its own mini game inside the game is a bad idea.Seriously? So, saying "the defender throws up a wall to defend himself against your attack" "I turn into a mouse and seek to find a way through" etc. is a bad idea? Why?
Yep,Although SR 4e fixed this greatly.
We're talking about two different things. As I said before, I'm talking about the Psion seeing combat in a virtual reality and -not- forcing him to adventure on his own.
I know I pointed this out earlier.
You're going to have to explain this in more detail, as your example is a very poor one if it's what you're arguing for.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
2e psionics were a major headache, especially the whole different methods of attack and defense and all that. I'd rather not see them replicated.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just wish that if people are going to bring Psionics into the game, that they exercise their god given imagination and create a different set of powers/abilities rather than just copy the Wizard!Then the wizard is going to have to lose some spells.
Which I seriously hope does happen in Pathfinder 2E. The current philosophy behind d20 fantasy games is that if any "new" power enters the game, from whatever source, the wizard should get a spell that allows him that power. The sole exception is healing, which has, thus far, mostly been restricted to divine spellcasters.
I'd like for magic in Pathfinder 2E to be more used to enhance someone who's already good at whatever. Maybe instead of a pure invisibility spell, there's a spell that gives a decent boost to a character's stealth modifier. Instead of "Knock" there's a spell that allows a character a bonus on their lockpicking checks. I'd like to see it move away from the typical party consisting of wizard, meat shield, and guys who do stuff when the wizard didn't memorize spells that trample all over their specialties.
I'd also like to see mechanical differences in arcane magic, divine magic, and psionics. To me, it makes little sense that the Mana Wastes somehow render a god's power impotent...just because arcane magic is blocked, that doesn't mean that divine should be as well.
| 13 people marked this as a favorite. |
Also, also, much of my work has been done for me. Really, the psionic apologists here are pretty much spot-on. I'd still like to comment on a few things.
Before I start, please note that if I pull out a post to comment on it, I'm not so much choosing that post because it's something that particular person says that I disagree with/agree with/whatever (although that is likely the case), it's just the most functionally useful for spring-boarding into a particular topic and/or I feel that it covers most clearly what I've been reading in the debate here.
ALSO, I talk/type/whatever WAY too much. So it's in spoiler tags so you don't have to read it all and can skip to the parts you care about.
As far as that goes...
2e psionics were a major headache, especially the whole different methods of attack and defense and all that. I'd rather not see them replicated.
Also, it was a neat tie-in to the illithids' mind blast, AND it was a neat way to find your opponents weakness (since 3.0 tied each discipline to a different ability score). But every battle with psionics was either going to end in daze-effects or ability damage, the latter of which required constant rest - and LOTS of it, as psions were very likely to take more than one point of ability damage. This ensured that it was either very rare, or a complete pain to be a psion in a psionic-themed adventure. Plus, the power point system in 3.0 was rather gimped - it basically made a psion into a nova-prone variant sorcerer (spell-point based) with an occasional jewel of niftyness somewhere in there.
I think many people looked at this version, thought "well, that's bogus", and left. Some might have even tried it out, but got burned (it was quite broken, too). When 3.5 came out later, they looked at it, and thought they looked too similar and left. This is analagous to people looking at Pathfinder and going "eh, it's 3.5, only chewy, so I don't need it" and moving on. It makes sense, but is incorrect. I know, because I was one of those latter (Pathfinder/3.5) until I actually TRIED Pathfinder and discovered (and am still discovering) the incredibly cool differences. I still prefer some 3.X stuff, but over all pathfinder is a far superior experience. So, too, it is with 3.0/3.5 psionics - there are some apparent similarities, but really, it's a much better experience in 3.5, and quite well balanced. That's something I'll touch on later in this post.
Psionics needs to be different:I just wish that if people are going to bring Psionics into the game, that they exercise their god given imagination and create a different set of powers/abilities rather than just copy the Wizard!Make the pay off worth the cost of admission. Make Psionics fundamentaaly different and WITH FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT POWERS. Maybe the Psionic doesn't have to cast divinations ahead of time, they trigger on their own as needed. Maybe Telepathic attacks take place in a pseudo alternate reality (like a Decker running the Matrix in Shadowrun or like 'The Will and the Way' (an old Darksun add-on)).
What really irritates the crap out of me and the biggest reason, by far, that I *hate* psionics is that the game desinger who created it for 3x was very lazy (or fell behind schedule) and just turned it into a Wizard with spell points.
Fix this steaming turd and change the name to 'mysticism' and a lot of the people who hate psionics now will end up liking it.
What I expect will happen is that Paizo will leave Psionics to Dreamscarred except, perhaps, to create an archetype for Sorcerers.
The problem, however, is that it's very, very complicated. It runs off of "strain" (basically non-lethal damage) requires large amount of nested groups of feats and skills - each feat allows a certain skill to be a class skill and you use that skill for that particular sub-set of abilities - like a power - and it requires tons of micro-management. It's not bad... in fact, it's a very cool idea, however it can cause serious problems for GMs AND players to keep track of and focus on. From my admittedly limited experience, it's not a good system. I like it, and have even enjoyed it - it's just not strong enough to stand on its own, or to really add anything and requires too much micro-management.
Which brings me to: the light gist of the description of your proposed system makes sense, to a point, but only because it's so light; in addition to the possible problems I've listed, we've got nothing to work with to give feedback of "here's X and Y problems with Z mechanic". It'd be like me saying "Hey, guys, we should have a new miracle-caster class, called a cleric, and it wouldn't use spells, but miracles, so it wouldn't step on anyone's toes! See, you have two clerics, kneeling and praying, and everyone else can do their own thing, including attacking the cleric (or not) in battle, but they have a test of faith, and can't break off their prayers, or else! What could go wrong?" Plenty, but there's no way to know if I don't give rules.
The first (wrong) impression that the ranger is over-powered. Yes, its saves are better than either the rogue or fighter, it's a better base attack than a rogue, more skills (by far) than a fighter, AND it casts a few spells, but really, it's (slightly) underpowered compared to the other two. Now don't get me wrong - I like all three classes as-is, but the ranger just isn't as powerful (this is not actually a bad thing, the ranger fills its own niche, and I'm not picking up this thread again, regardless of anyone else saying anything about this topic).
The second (wrong) impression is that these guys are all "the same". All of them focus on hitting stuff. Often. And killing it. With weapons! In fact, all three have different flavor "iconic" concepts of dual-wielding, though I admit the rogue is the least stressed of these. Surely they are all the same! Nope. Not even close. Even though you can easily build all three to be bowyer-archers or dual wielders fairly easily, and even though all three are focused on hitting stuff until it stops moving, there are huge differences in the application of HOW each of them hits things until they stop moving. Sure you could have a high-dexterity fighter, ranger, and rogue who all specialize in dual-wielding daggers and wearing armor... but none of them would feel the same, disregarding the fact that none of those are really good builds, outside of specific prestige class choices.
All of that is to say that it's similar (in some ways) to psionics and other magic-users (specifically wizards, in this case). Psions have powers that do stuff. Wizards have spells that do stuff. Both require saves. Both have (varying) ability to deal damage based on the "<caster/manifester> level" of the <"caster"/"manifester">. Sometimes they even overlap! Teleportation (a long-time staple of psychic powers, not-so-much mages)! Telekinesis (as before)! Telepathic goodness (again, as before)!
But whereas wizards cast spells, psionics manifests powers... and not only do they use a different empowering mechanic (power points v. vancian fire-and-forget) they are also organized very differently, so that groupings of powers are far more sensible than 'similar' groupings of spells.
For example, why is "fly" under transmutation? Yes, I get the concept - you alter the person to allow them to do something they wouldn't normally be able to do - but really, fly is a transport style ability, NOT an alteration ability. Why are leomund's tiny hut and mordenkainan's magnificent mansion (sorry, "tiny hut" and "magnificent mansion") different spell schools? Rope trick? Okay, well at least evocation makes sense, what with it's fireballs, lightning bolts, scintillating spheres, magic missiles, daylight, darkness, wait, what? Why are those last two there? Wouldn't those be, you know, illusion? You know, manipulation of light? While we're on the topic, why is illusion so wrapped up in shadow spells, but HAS NO LIGHT SPELLS. "Illu" is the first part of the word, and it means "to bring light", or at least has the implication of control and modification of it. Why are the fear spells necromancy instead of enchantment... the latter being the school that controls the mind and emotion? Many of the divisions of magic are both arbitrary and annoying to anyone seeking logic within it.
On the other hand, the psionic abilities are generally grouped by their function: moving stuff, making stuff, damaging stuff up, modifying stuff (mostly the self), manipulate thinking stuff, and knowing stuff. Generally, if it falls into one of those categories, it falls into a sensibly similar disciplines. Is it perfect? Nah. In fact there are a few flaws with it. But it's a far-cry better than the wizard.
Further, psionics allows for a fascinating simplification of overly complex and (again) entirely arbitrary distinctions by allowing for augmentation. Spells: Charm Person, Charm Animal, Charm Monster. Power: Charm. The former requires three spells to function appropriately, while the latter requires only one power with scaling abilities of how much you want to spend.
There are, of course, cries that one power = three spells is unbalanced! Well, yes, it is. Except that so many other spells are unbalanced within themselves. Also the preponderance of magical spells can do things NO psionic power can. Conjuration effects specifically (summoning and calling, especially), although many spells from abjuration, illusion, necromancy, and transmutation all have their own ability to entirely bypass psionic strengths. Between the two, psionics comes out the loser, nova or no, and as many others have explained, the nova isn't really a psionic - mages do it to. That's all I'll go into (this post) on balance, but...
As to mages having psionic powers... yeah, they do. That's because mages have EVERYTHING. Wish doesn't even protect divine spells from mages, as they can imitate things they can't cast themselves, and can create items that allow them to create the higher level effects anyway. To be fair, this has been heavily limited by Pathfinder, however looking at 3.5 psionic stuff, and comparing it to 3.5 wizard stuff... it's not that psions copy wizards, its that wizards gain all a psions' signature powers, traits, skills, and abilities already... just by being a wizard. It would be like saying that druids shouldn't have healing spells, summoning spells, or anything that looks remotely like cleric spells, because the cleric did it first. Nevermind that druids (in popular myth and legend, not history) were known for their ability to mend wounds, their advanced herbal remedies, and spellcasting while clerics (and priests in general) are NOT often thought of as spell-casters of any kind (although they often were in non-Judeo-Christian heritages). Class-wise, clerics were just made first and mightier. Further, the lists were partially replicated because of one important thing: game balance. Without functionally similar abilities to heal people, and even raise them from the dead, druids would be vastly less useful for a party, and often virtually unplayable. Similarly, without some abilities that mages claimed for themselves, psions would be rendered rather impotent.
That said, I don't much like psionics, psionics is pseudoscientific, there are people who claim to have mind powers in the real world, and I'd much prefer to draw a clear distinction between fantasy worlds and real ones. If something is magical and not real, lets just admit it and not try to blur the distinction, there is no evidence for psionics in the real world, none, lets save this for a superheroes campaign, there you can have characters with mind powers among many others, psionics fits well into those.
There IS some science in some super-hero comics, but the most accurate science-fiction comic in existence is none other than: Donald Duck. Accept for the talking ducks, Donald has made no less than five scientific and/or cultural creations only made popular years later. That is something that has never been replicated by super hero (or any other!) comics. Oh, sure, teleportation may be theoretically possible now, but gaining teleportation (or whatever) by being dosed in radiation (or similar ludicrous plot device); or, for that matter, gaining the ability to create machines that eject long strands of specialized polymers, to climb walls, super-strength and super-dexterity, and precognitive processes by being BITTEN BY A RADIOACTIVE (or mutated or genetically engineered, or whatever) SPIDER - regardless of how much I like Spiderman - is nothing but pure fantasy. Being born with the ability to absorb solar rays and channel them as destructive beams through the eyes? Cyclops is awesome, but total fantasy. On that note, absorbing solar rays and gaining: flight, super strength, laser beam eyes, x-ray vision, nigh-indestructibility, freeze-breath (possibly hypnotic, possibly not), etc? Completely nonsensical fantasy. None of that makes one lick of scientific sense. Being from another planet doesn't mean our sun gives you super powers. It's ludicrous, if lots of fun. Again, science does exist in super hero comics (I have a great book on that), but science ALSO exists in myriads of fantasy settings and worlds and books, including Tolkien (fireworks and specialized advanced metallurgy, off the top of my head)
My own statements:
In the end, if you don't like psionics: don't use it. That's fine. It's a valid viewpoint. However, don't claim that this is true psionics is less balanced than sorcerer/wizard magic (untrue), or that it's not fantasy/is sci-fi (also untrue), or that it's not Sword-and-Sorcery (very untrue). Also, Pathfinder presumes "psionics" exists in Golarion, although, as it's not been defined, it's open to the GM to interpret what that means - whether it's mind magic (variant spellcaster) or an actual different system mechanic, that's up to the GM.
I haven't checked the Pathfinder equivalent psionics (Dreamscarred), but I've heard great things (here and elsewhere), so until I do, I can't say that 3.5 psionics, as it stands, is or is not balanced with PATHFINDER. But then again, Pathfinder is a different system. A 3.5 sorcerer is definitely not balanced with Pathfinder, either. Nor is a 3.5 fighter. At all. 3.5 =/= Pathfinder. It's close... really close, sometimes, but Pathfinder is a better balanced (it seems, so far) system over-all, and much more fun. Within the realm of 3.5, however, psionics was generally better than the core stuff for balance up through high levels of play.
Anyhoo, I'm looking forward to looking at the Ultimate Combat thing. And seeing where Paizo (eventually) goes with Vudran psionics. I understand it's not popular on the staff, so they're going to do their own thing, which is fine. One thing I could easily see is dealing with ki energy as a form of psionics. I'm not sure that's the route they're going for, but it's quite possible. I'll be waiting... and really hoping it's NOT Vancian. Side note: Vancian actually kind of makes more sense for psionics than magic. But because it's magic's domain, and I'm not too fond of it (as it's kind of broken, as others have already described), I'm hoping it's not Vancian.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Now, one major problem (I had) with 3.5 psionics: the Complete Psionics.
NO
SHUT UP
NO
IT NEVER HAPPENED
THAT BOOK NEVER HAPPENED
