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My players are under the impression the castle (which they spent the appropriate BP's for) is huge, since it covers 4 squares on the grid. I told them it's a mere improvment on the Staglord's fort, but then they asked why buy a castle and not just spend BP's for a Keep, which the Fort really is? I'm also assuming little can be done in winter (No Camelot overnight). I'd like to know some ideas about what footage such a castle might be.
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I ruled in favor of how your players concueve it. A castle is supposed to be a fallback for the rest of the village to last in during the siege, it encompasses multiple building including suites for nobility and staff, rooms for Crafting, gardens, storage, barracks. A castle is expensive because it's a lot of things rolled into one.
If verisimilitude is a problem say that the castle is made of mostly wood the first month and that gets replaced over the next year with stone. Describe people working on it in the background while PCs go about their business in the castle. No need to fiddle with the rules or take away expensive shiniest from the players after all.
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I told my players that is a cheap keep from the 3.5 stronghold builders guide. THat if they wish to imporve it then in the city improvment phase then they can use one of there city build option then they can.
The 3.5 stronghold builders guide book. It has different options like a Fancy throne room. Castle barraks. Fancy rooms, servant quarters.
that sort of stuff. Try using that. My players have plans to make their castle a flying one which i think i worked it out to be something like 2000 bp or something like that
I highly recommend the "Stronghold Builder's Guide" awesome reference. I would probably let them have quite a few options from that book after they've paid the BPs for it. I'm not sure how much though. Just starting second book with my group this weekend.
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My players are under the impression the castle (which they spent the appropriate BP's for) is huge, since it covers 4 squares on the grid. I told them it's a mere improvment on the Staglord's fort, but then they asked why buy a castle and not just spend BP's for a Keep, which the Fort really is? I'm also assuming little can be done in winter (No Camelot overnight). I'd like to know some ideas about what footage such a castle might be.
Well, according to the kingdom building info, a city block is approx 750'x750'. So, four of those would make 1500'x1500'. Now, that's not counting a street in between, but you could just say that is taken up by the moat...
so, 1500x1500=2,250,000 sq. ft. of space. for the first floor... I'd say at least two levels, possibly dungeon level too. So say somewhere between five and nine million square feet. though your walls are probably thick, so not that much, but that could be close to what you're looking at. Though there's sure to be a big courtyard that would take a lot of that space, but still...
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Why cheat them on the castle size and/or construction time? Does it break the game in some way? Construction times are pretty abstract...
Seems to me four blocks means four blocks.
-Kle.
Well, it took a great deal of time to make a castle. If you translate build points into GP value for what a castle would cost, I don't think 50 BP would be much of a castle. Seeing one of large size spring up in two months seems a little beyond my suspension of disbelief.
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If you translate build points into GP value for what a castle would cost, I don't think 50 BP would be much of a castle.Really?
Seems to me that 200,000gp would build a pretty nice building.You can buy an magical dirigible or a really primitive mecha for 80,000gp... 200,000gp gets you eight Wishes...
-Kle.
+ 1
But BP and gold aren't directly interchangeable. That 50BP doesn't mean you ahve 200,000gp lying around, it means you have connections, labor, political maneuvering space, the goodwill of the people, supplies and raw materials, and the funds to get something accomplished. That's one reason I thought withdrawing BP gets you 2,000gp BP per while depositing costs 4,000gp per BP. It's not as easy to turn the goodwill, favors owed, raw materials, and labor into coin, and it's also risky.
So I'd say the 50BP is more like 100,000gp in value, but even that's iffy, and your PCs don't need the world when it comes to their castle. That said, I would probably go a little more elaborate than the Cheap Keep from the Stronghold Builder's Guide and let them have some funds to elaborate it whatever way they wish.
But BP and gold aren't directly interchangeable. That 50BP doesn't mean you ahve 200,000gp lying around, it means you have connections, labor, political maneuvering space, the goodwill of the people, supplies and raw materials, and the funds to get something accomplished. That's one reason I thought withdrawing BP gets you 2,000gp BP per while depositing costs 4,000gp per BP. It's not as easy to turn the goodwill, favors owed, raw materials, and labor into coin, and it's also risky.
So I'd say the 50BP is more like 100,000gp in value, but even that's iffy, and your PCs don't need the world when it comes to their castle. That said, I would probably go a little more elaborate than the Cheap Keep from the Stronghold Builder's Guide and let them have some funds to elaborate it whatever way they wish.
By that logic, 50 BP is 100,000gp of value in raw material and funds, AND connections, labor, political maneuvering space, and the goodwill of the people.
You could build something amazing with all that.
Ultimately, people are just not used to the the Reverse Pay System of Kingmaker's Kingdom Building. In everything else, we are used to pay, then work commences, then it is completed. Sometimes that may be broken up into chunks along the way, but even in construction you pay the contractor first, because you pay him not only for his time but for the materials he will purchase on your behalf for the project. The counterpoint is that he is licensed and bonded so that there are legal consequences and options if he takes your money and runs. Regardless, most of us are used to a chain of events of Pay Cost - Build Starts - Build Completes - Structure Useable. From Starcraft to Monopoly, this is how it works.
Kingmaker switches things up by not putting the Pay phase at the start. In this system, it goes Building Starts - Pay Cost - Build Completes - Structure Useable.
People just seem to not like the aspect of "having to look backwards" to say things like "the castle has been worked on for months, and is just now complete." They feel like it breaks the sense of immersion to retcon in the presence of such a major building. Yet with smaller buildings like shops and houses, often they don't feel that way, because its easy to imagine the shop being built during the month that the cost is paid.
Its ultimately an issue with perspective and an the difficulties people have in shifting to said perspective. That said, I honestly can not see a method that eliminates the perspective issue without radically complicating the system. While not perfect, the rules work well for both scope and simplicity.
I will have to echo on the sentiment of BP, you can get out only a fraction of what a BP is worth in golds worth, but unconverted its worth a lot more in building materials, kingdom resources, manpower and labour, services and goods, goodwill of the community etcetc.
And it says right in the book that a building does not take up the entirety of the square/block it occupies. It's assumed the building is surrounded by residence, workshops, supportive structures, smaller backalleys, roads etcetc. It's an abstract system, you have to look at it from an abstract view and form your own imagination of it. You might want to define the size of the castle with your players, and no doubt as others have mentioned, there are other things in the same "block" as well. Considering that the Stag Lords fort is on a hill, I would think it's possible that the hill could have become a form of nobles district, where the wealthy builds their houses across its slope.
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That's one reason I thought withdrawing BP gets you 2,000gp BP per while depositing costs 4,000gp per BP. It's not as easy to turn the goodwill, favors owed, raw materials, and labor into coin, and it's also risky.
So I'd say the 50BP is more like 100,000gp in value, but even that's iffy, and your PCs don't need the world when it comes to their castle. That said, I would probably go a little more elaborate than the Cheap Keep from the Stronghold Builder's Guide and let them have some funds to elaborate it whatever way they wish.
Nope.
50BP is worth exactly 100,000gp in cash money.
50BP is worth at least 200,000gp in construction resources and labor. An argument can be made that it is even worth more than that in construction resources and labor, since a magic sword doesn't necessarily convert well into "generic kingdom economic development units".I still don't see any reason why you (the OP) want to take something away from the players that has no game impact whatsoever, that they apparently want, and that the rules say they get. Are you going to arbitrarily downgrade all the other buildings they build, so that the Inn is a filthy squat, and the Arena is a cockfighting ring, and the Jail is a set of stocks by a road, and the Piers is a rowboat dragged ashore in the mud?
Or by making their Castle (and it's outbuildings, as Philip Knowsley pointed out) crummy, are you also reducing it's defense value?
-Kle.
+1
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I will have to echo on the sentiment of BP, you can get out only a fraction of what a BP is worth in golds worth, but unconverted its worth a lot more in building materials, kingdom resources, manpower and labour, services and goods, goodwill of the community etcetc.
And it says right in the book that a building does not take up the entirety of the square/block it occupies. It's assumed the building is surrounded by residence, workshops, supportive structures, smaller backalleys, roads etcetc. It's an abstract system, you have to look at it from an abstract view and form your own imagination of it. You might want to define the size of the castle with your players, and no doubt as others have mentioned, there are other things in the same "block" as well. Considering that the Stag Lords fort is on a hill, I would think it's possible that the hill could have become a form of nobles district, where the wealthy builds their houses across its slope.
While I agree that some buildings d like houses and shops don't take up the full block, i would say the larger buildings like Cathedrals, Castles, and Arenas do take up the whole area. I have no evidence, it is just how I feel. In the end it is up to the DM and players to decide what actually is in the area. For example, we have a Tavern built. Our DM has also placed a dance/supper club in the area. However, in our castle are all of the things the castles need, a stable, a barracks, keeps, guest quarters, a well, even a garden.
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This isn't correct. The game year is divided into twelve "turns" of euqal length, and while they each correspond to a month for ease of play the truth is is that these rules are very abstract.
Not really. We track each day of the campaign on the pathfinder calander. The realm of Brevony is very frigid and cold in the witner months, and we've just turned into 'March' month. The small community built little in the grip of winter. Even using the heat-stones they purchased, it would take quite a bit to dib a cellar, well or midden, or pull logs through the snow for lumber. And of course, at night, the Wendol or other critters come calling...
While I agree that some buildings d like houses and shops don't take up the full block, i would say the larger buildings like Cathedrals, Castles, and Arenas do take up the whole area. I have no evidence, it is just how I feel. In the end it is up to the DM and players to decide what actually is in the area. For example, we have a Tavern built. Our DM has also placed a dance/supper club in the area. However, in our castle are all of the things the castles need, a stable, a barracks, keeps, guest quarters, a well, even a garden.I will have to echo on the sentiment of BP, you can get out only a fraction of what a BP is worth in golds worth, but unconverted its worth a lot more in building materials, kingdom resources, manpower and labour, services and goods, goodwill of the community etcetc.
And it says right in the book that a building does not take up the entirety of the square/block it occupies. It's assumed the building is surrounded by residence, workshops, supportive structures, smaller backalleys, roads etcetc. It's an abstract system, you have to look at it from an abstract view and form your own imagination of it. You might want to define the size of the castle with your players, and no doubt as others have mentioned, there are other things in the same "block" as well. Considering that the Stag Lords fort is on a hill, I would think it's possible that the hill could have become a form of nobles district, where the wealthy builds their houses across its slope.
I have to disagree with this for the most part. It would make the default castle a gigantic structure the likes of which Mideval Europe never saw. A 2x2 structure is HUGE. I mean, its a 1/4 mile per side.
I mean, a quick google search puts your average castle beween 10K and 100K square feet. That would be 1/2 a square, not 4. A 4 square structure would be 6-7M square feet. Its very likely that your castle has a large surrounding area, possibly with outer walls, that contains graizing area, farmland, a safe water source, and a good ammount of buildings. But the strong defensible structure would not be nearly as large as you are proposing.
One of my solutions to this problem was to halve the size of a city block.
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I still don't see any reason why you (the OP) want to take something away from the players that has no game impact whatsoever, that they apparently want, and that the rules say they get. Are you going to arbitrarily downgrade all the other buildings they build, so that the Inn is a filthy squat, and the Arena is a cockfighting ring, and the Jail is a set of stocks by a road, and the Piers is a rowboat dragged ashore in the mud?
I actually seee you concerns to be preposterous. I can't understand how you assume anything is being taken away from the players.
First of all to assume that all rules as written have no room for embellisment, improvement, alterations, modifications, or cherry-picked for a non society organizaed event is a misnomer.
No author of any RPG ever said - "you are not allowed to change these rules".
Nothing is being taken away from a player. If a player showed up with a large pizza, and didn't intend to share, and you reached over and took one - THEN you'd be taking something from the player.
But to assume that everything in the Core Rule book, Ultimate Combat, Magic, Alternate Players Guide, Kingmaker building guide or other is written in stone is simply not something most gamers would agree on.
If you never tell a player that a "castle can be built in a month" and instead say "It takes four months" then nothing has been taken away, it's merely been altered for the specific DMs preference.
The kingdom building documents are a foundation - a suggestive building block of barely tested and proven ideolgies that should work well enough for most persons, but theres always room for finaggling things a bit different. Even the authors themselves admitted it wasn't a robust system (yet) and hinted that a whole book would be devoted to it later. They stated that the one month per building irrespective of building size was merely for simplicity sake. They never stated that this was a hard-fast iron-clad rule that had to be obeyed.
Since the AP release there has been hordes of additional player and DM content added to make these more enjoyable; not all of the player content would be as widely accepted as others, just as not all of the original print would be solidy accepted as written.
Trust me - nothing is being taken from the players. There's no rule either that says Pathfinder players should be awarded every bennie, and bone that a DM comes across. It simply is faulty logic to assume otherwise.
EDIT: Incidentally, I strongly recommend you NOT change this for "realism" sake. Denying PCs three months of build time during the first years changes the dynamic of what can already be somewhat risky mathematics and stands a good chance of ending the campaign prematurely.
As a DM of Kingmaker myself, I have in fact been playing the "1 month of construction per square" - thus castles take 4 turns. My campaign hasn't imploded.
Granted the players are experiencing the types of grandiose successes and obviosly not the ballooned kingdoms of 80 hexes and 150 BP per turn earnings at 8th level that I've read about on here....but that's not how we wanted things anyways.
They're 6 years into the campaign and we see this a huge generation spanning process. It's our pace of more believeable immersed stories and greater stories and roleplaying. But that's how we're having the fun.
Every group is different. I've added ALOT of features into the Kingmaker game that wasn't there to begin with - and I've removed certain features, or altered others that didn't fit my overall feel of what I wanted the campaign and kingdom building to look like.
That's just part of being a DM. So long as both sides are enjoying themselves, nothing else really matters. Most of my players are stating that this is the best campaign they've ever been a part of.
The rules are indeed abstract and we use them for the basic principle of the kingdom expansion, but we still leave room for story and roleplaying to affect them - such as another suggested, sometimes winter and storms slow down the process, sometimes the opposite is true. The rules set a nice set of boundaries with which to draw from but we let the story dictate the rules, not the other way around.
Truthfully the only thing I've really taken away from my players is their Friday nights with their spouses cuz they keep wanting to come back for more.
Robert
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Yeah, because we as DM's love to give out (or even make available) eight wishes at 5th level....Again, making things unavailable to the players that are spelled out in the rules... If you don't want the, to buy things with the money, maybe you shouldn't bother giving them the money. If you don't want them to have a castle, then running Kingmaker seems downright ridiculous... What's next, they can't run a country either, since that seems 'too much'?
-Kle.
He wasn't saying that he didn't want his players to buy anything - he was supporting his stance that 50 BP does not necessarily equate to 200,000 gp.
Because by 8th level, most DMs aren't eage to give 8 wishes to players - or 200,000 gp.
While 200,000 gp can buy 50 BP in theory, you also have to take into account that the BP includes not just money, but buy invested time, labor, materials, man-hours, injuries sustained during building, etc etc etc.
And only half of that would be able to be spent on the PCs regardless as it equates to only half if you "borrow" money from your BP treasury. Of course the Unrest from that may just kill your kingdom anyways
Robert
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I still don't see any reason why you (the OP) want to take something away from the players that has no game impact whatsoever, that they apparently want, and that the rules say they get. Are you going to arbitrarily downgrade all the other buildings they build, so that the Inn is a filthy squat, and the Arena is a cockfighting ring, and the Jail is a set of stocks by a road, and the Piers is a rowboat dragged ashore in the mud?
I actually seee you concerns to be preposterous. I can't understand how you assume anything is being taken away from the players.
First of all to assume that all rules as written have no room for embellisment, improvement, alterations, modifications, or cherry-picked for a non society organizaed event is a misnomer.
No author of any RPG ever said - "you are not allowed to change these rules".
Nothing is being taken away from a player. If a player showed up with a large pizza, and didn't intend to share, and you reached over and took one - THEN you'd be taking something from the player.
But to assume that everything in the Core Rule book, Ultimate Combat, Magic, Alternate Players Guide, Kingmaker building guide or other is written in stone is simply not something most gamers would agree on.
If you never tell a player that a "castle can be built in a month" and instead say "It takes four months" then nothing has been taken away, it's merely been altered for the specific DMs preference.
The kingdom building documents are a foundation - a suggestive building block of barely tested and proven ideolgies that should work well enough for most persons, but theres always room for finaggling things a bit different. Even the authors themselves admitted it wasn't a robust system (yet) and hinted that a whole book would be devoted to it later. They stated that the one month per building irrespective of building size was merely for simplicity sake. They never stated that this was a hard-fast iron-clad rule that had to be obeyed....
Even Jacobs was wont to change the Kingdom building rules too much. If the players invested a lot of BPs and didn't get anything for it for several months it would seem a little harsh. As BPs, especially in the beginning of RR is at a premium. It is good your group is enjoying your 'changes'. I hope my group makes sensible decisions when it comes to kingdom building.
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Sure.
Your initial post wasn't titled "House Rule suggestions for construction times and building sizes?" though, it was titled "How big is a castle made from build points?".The answer to that is "four blocks".
You can do anything you want in your game; that's stipulated. However, if you are running the hugely modified game of Kingmaker that you describe above, it isn't especially useful to ask people about it, w/o explaining all the things you've changed.
Agreed.
But to be fair - I was not the original poster of this thread - I didn't ask the question at all.
I was merely responding to commentary that implied by changing rules, you're "taking away something from the players."
You have still failed to explain why you think they should have to settle for a crummy castle that takes forever to be finished, compared to the default, abstract rules, other than "I don't think they should". That's fine, it's your game - however, it seems arbitrary to some other people. You shouldn't be surprised that everyone doesn't agree with you, really.
-Kle.
Again it wasn't my stance at all. I allow them to build a castle in its full glory - but in 4 turns vs 1.
The flavor of the text of course could be that in turn 1 it's the foundation, thereafter it continues to be ugraded - much like the OP suggested the castle takes the shape as.
But in the end it's still a 50BP castle as defined in the Kingmaker AP book.
And one more thing - I apologize if my "tone" came off as hostile sounding - when I re-read it today I admit it could be construed as such.
I will admit that I do get defensive when I hear that whining complaint from players all the time that have a self-serving "Me" factor who feels that they're entitled to everything available in the published world of RPGs; and feel that a DM is "taking away something from the players if they don't allow the "All Masters Munchin Complete Guide to Ultimate Superior Characters Handbook III"
As a DM that only uses CORE rule books (no expansions, supplements etc), I find it a bit disheartening and insulting when the belief is that you cannot have a good and successful game without opening up all content to players or that DMs can't alter setting or adventure to mold more within his preferences, and that DMs shouldn't change anything for fear that players will feel deprived.
In my world, less is more.
Robert
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Sure.
Your initial post wasn't titled "House Rule suggestions for construction times and building sizes?" though, it was titled "How big is a castle made from build points?".The answer to that is "four blocks".
You can do anything you want in your game; that's stipulated. However, if you are running the hugely modified game of Kingmaker that you describe above, it isn't especially useful to ask people about it, w/o explaining all the things you've changed.
Agreed.
But to be fair - I was not the original poster of this thread - I didn't ask the question at all.
I was merely responding to commentary that implied by changing rules, you're "taking away something from the players."
You have still failed to explain why you think they should have to settle for a crummy castle that takes forever to be finished, compared to the default, abstract rules, other than "I don't think they should". That's fine, it's your game - however, it seems arbitrary to some other people. You shouldn't be surprised that everyone doesn't agree with you, really.
-Kle.
Again it wasn't my stance at all. I allow them to build a castle in its full glory - but in 4 turns vs 1.
The flavor of the text of course could be that in turn 1 it's the foundation, thereafter it continues to be ugraded - much like the OP suggested the castle takes the shape as.
But in the end it's still a 50BP castle as defined in the Kingmaker AP book.
And one more thing - I apologize if my "tone" came off as hostile sounding - when I re-read it today I admit it could be construed as such.
I will admit that I do get defensive when I hear that whining complaint from players all the time that have a self-serving "Me" factor who feels that they're entitled to everything available in the published world of RPGs; and feel that a DM is "taking away something from the players if they don't allow the "All Masters Munchin Complete Guide to Ultimate Superior Characters Handbook III" ...
+1
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Why not just let the players have a bigger sized castle at each step up in the hexes claimed chart.
1-10 Keep sized as per Fort Tuskwater
11-?? Larger building with a few extras like turrets, a moat, a decently furnished throne room etc
next level Larger than previous with upgrades
and so on.
Don't worry about what it costs or how long it takes. Make it a reward for the players growing their kingdom and let the cost/time play through behind the scenes. As they explore and grow, their castle is being repaired, upgraded, etc.
There is enough in the kingdom building and adventure path as is.