Palious13's page

We actually recruited her help early on. We were goning to go aqrcane trickster, so gave her another level of rogue. owever, as of writing this we are gonna make the rest of her levels sorceror and give her touch spells, range touch spells and Spectral Hand. She will also retrain her 1st level spells to more useful, probably mage armor and magic missile.

2ndGenerationCleric wrote:

Oh wow. I just realized I think I was talking about something tougher than everyone else. I wasn't referring to simply swinging from one side to the other, I was talking about swinging to the far side of the ship. Like, to get behind the enemy. In case I hadn't made that clear.

As mentioned before, the Rogue archetype Pirate has Swinging Reposition. Why not let your players take that particular trick as a feat? A standard feat gets a rogue talent, and this class feature replaces a rogue talent. GM fiat to say it is also available as a feat seems reasonable. If they take it, they got all the rules needed to use. Anything not covered would use the more difficult rules discussed above.

/cevah

I disagree. If you start letting players take abilities from classes as feats, where does it end? I'm a fighter with backstab. I'm a Barbarian that can channel energy. Or even more simply, why would a rogue give up trapfinding for it when he could just take it asa feat?

RE: the original questions...

** spoiler omitted **

In our campaign, I am playing Ameiko's brother who has been fascinated with samurai and Minkai for many years, infact he is a Samurai. After a lot of unpleasantness in the campaign, alot of it caused by Ameiko, she has settled down and has named 2 primary advisors. I am one of them. One of my areas is to help train her in the culture of Minkai and prepare her to rule the Land of the Samurai. Fortunately, I have Suishen to help as everything my character knows, or thinks he knows has come from a small collection of books. I have been trying ever since we left Sandpoint to inform the others of the great difference in culture between Avistan and Tian Xa. There is little actual information on Tian Xa, a primer and a gazateer. Mostly the DM has allowed me to make up the culture as we go. As stated in the gazateer, I have based alot of it on feudal Japan.

We have as our group,

Tanaka- Male,Human Samurai, Order of the Warrior-Ameiko's Younger brother

Zaigan-Male,Aasimar Cleric of Desna, raised by Koya, (I'm not sure on this one)

Celestine-Female,Human Wizard Universalist, raised by Koya

Dessie- Female,Halfling rogue, raised by Koya

Felix- Male,half-elf Ranger, crush on Ameiko

I am the Samurai.

The other thing you might want to look at is playing up the scope of a caravan encounter vs. a standard player encounter. As written when you run into goblins while on your caravan it is a small horde of them like 15-30 and the CR is still only like 1/3 as if taking on a single one. Use this to play up the strength of the caravan in relation to the standard party. Heck if you want to get a little more crazy you might want to develop a system so that your party can retreat to the caravan and proc caravan combat, dropping the CR of difficult normal or random encounters (and therefore lowing the XP they recieve) but allowing them a better chance at survival.

That is early on. It doesn't take long for it to be easier for the PCs to take on the group attacking rather than the caravan. Our caravan only does like 1d6+8, while the enemies will be doing 4D8+20. Our AC is like 15 whuiles theirs is 20+. Our attack bonus is +8 while their's is +15. Whereas our party is 7th level, and can cast fireball, attack with powerful weapons and do a ton of damage.

In our campaign, my character is the only one to have leadership. I am a Sorceror and the King. My followers are all in low level positions in various other councilor's departments to help me keep an eye on things for me.

My cohort actually comes from my character's back story. I was a relative of the King of Taldor and raised a revolt against him because of his inability to stop the downward slide of Taldor. Of course we failed, but put up a good fight. My cohort was a cavalier devoted to our cause. Now he is an order of the Lion as I am the King. He serves two purposes.

1. While adventuring,he is my bodyguard/muscle. He was actually very useful for a long period he was our front line fighter. He is more useful because we have found some old feats that boost the Leadership feat, and I have one that lets him be onoly one level lower than me. he is also the only other lawful character besides me in the group.

2. He is the head of the Order of the Dragon, so named because I have a draconic bloodline. It is and order of cavaliers of the Lion that serve as a group of elite bodygaurds and extra-military organization. They are not a part of the army and therefore do not fall under that jurisdiction. I have been laying the ground work for this since book one.

Let's see. We have our capitol city of Shrikewall (2 districts). Then there is Olegsburg where Oleg's outpost was. Then there is Tatzlford where we defeated the tatzlworms. Finally, there is Elkhaven at the Temple of Erastil. Each one has one district. NPC's actually run the cities, although as Duke, the DM and I pretty much run the domain turns.

Oh, and we just started the Varnhold Vanishing.

Let's see. We have our capitol city of Shrikewall (2 districts). Then there is Olegsburg where Oleg's outpost was. Then there is Tatzlford where we defeated the tatzlworms. Finally, there is Elkhaven at the Temple of Erastil. Each one has one district. NPC's actually run the cities, although as Duke, the DM and I pretty much run the domain turns.

A goblin strong enough to defeat the Stag Lord and his ilk is probably strong enough to forge a kingdom. He could also be trying to create a safe haven for other goblins. He could build to try to impress the other kingdoms that he is "civilized" so as to prevent an early destructive war. As to where all of these goblins come from, keep in mind the huge prolific rate of goblins. I admit I haven't studied Glorian goblins, but other goblins are like rats and can produce a huge number in a short time. That is the threat of goblins, individually very weak, but there is never only one or two. I believe they invented the term horde.

As to whether Restov would use goblinoids, there I have no answer. Maybe some powerful, corrupt noble believes he can control, or eventually takeover himself. It could add a whole new subplot later on. IN the end, if your players want to do it, and you are OK with it, go with it. Have fun. That is what the game is for.

I am playing a sorceror (infernal bloodline, convinced everyone it is a Draconic bloodline) who is the ruler. I think just about any classs would be a good ruler, if you don't care about the stats. Of course even if you do care, just put your secondary abilty scores in Charisma. It is entirely possible that even a fighter or wizard could have 14 Charisma which is well above average.

Also I noticed no one mentioned Summoner. I think a Summoner would make an excellent leader. First the majority of their power comes from their pet. Leaving them free to concentrate on other things. And second, since their power comes from their pet, they are already adept at giving orders. And finally, Charisma is the most important stat.

How about a huge feast? Like in a wedding or something? Or even better in this setting, how about a hunt? Nobles loved to hunt and then have huge feasts to celebrate.

I will have to echo on the sentiment of BP, you can get out only a fraction of what a BP is worth in golds worth, but unconverted its worth a lot more in building materials, kingdom resources, manpower and labour, services and goods, goodwill of the community etcetc.

And it says right in the book that a building does not take up the entirety of the square/block it occupies. It's assumed the building is surrounded by residence, workshops, supportive structures, smaller backalleys, roads etcetc. It's an abstract system, you have to look at it from an abstract view and form your own imagination of it. You might want to define the size of the castle with your players, and no doubt as others have mentioned, there are other things in the same "block" as well. Considering that the Stag Lords fort is on a hill, I would think it's possible that the hill could have become a form of nobles district, where the wealthy builds their houses across its slope.

While I agree that some buildings d like houses and shops don't take up the full block, i would say the larger buildings like Cathedrals, Castles, and Arenas do take up the whole area. I have no evidence, it is just how I feel. In the end it is up to the DM and players to decide what actually is in the area. For example, we have a Tavern built. Our DM has also placed a dance/supper club in the area. However, in our castle are all of the things the castles need, a stable, a barracks, keeps, guest quarters, a well, even a garden.

What's the point exactly of building several cities? Aside from the one per city buildings(which are really really expensive), I see very little reason(aside from realism) to create more than one city.

And even the cities they can get freely, what point is there to invest any BPs in anything but one city?

Aside from realism, and aside from the larger one per city buildings, it spreads out your cities. If a war erupts,(hint, hint) then your enemy takes out your one city and your country is crippled save wise. While the loss of one city of many can be dangerous, it will probably not destroy your kingdom.

My character, who has become the ruler, is a sorceror. Pretty straight forward? Not a chance. He is from Taldor and is the sousin of the King of Taldor. Still not that unusual. However, his Grand father made pacts with devils so that his grandson would become a great king. Obviously he thought that meant a great king of Taldor and stop the decline of that country. But one must be careful when dealing with devils and it did not come to pass. Although my character did start a revolution and lasted quite awhile. Only when betrayed by a spy and convinced to give battle was the rebellion crushed. He has since been in hiding (and his powers have atrophied) for several years. He has since learned that a powerful potion called the elixir of Nex (a poyion developed by Nex to stay young and alive forever) is in the stolen lands. Much of our army and a few of our leaders were survivors of the rebellion. His name is Palious Pendragon. He is a 7th level Infernal Human Sorcerer. and He will dominate!

I was just wondering, if anyone had thought of using Cavalier armies? I saw the new armies in the River books (great source by the way) and the royal aarmies used paladins. I figured cavalier armies would be useful also. The thing is Cavaliers get their mounts for free. I feel this should decrease intial consumption, but not consumption per week. The cavalier is such a useful clas in Kingmaker, as opposed to any other AP, that a cavalier leading a cavalier unit, of like order, seems natural. Any thoughts?

In our game, our DM has added several "fey lords." He also added a group called the Twilight Hammer. (Yes, name from WOW) They are an anti-fey group. They are humanoids and try to work within the law. Even so, most of the party has sided with the fey. I am the lord and personally I have sypmpathy for the Hammer. However, their actions are causing the fey to become hostile to average citizens. We have taken out the third in command when he tried to kill the Dryad and satyr. It has just fored them underground. And now the sister of our elven ranger Marshall has helped form a Fey kingdom in the Narlmarches, around the old elven castle. One of the rey lords, the White Lady, has decided to seduce our general, who is reluctant at best.

There are several other subplot elements going. The most interesting is our Royal Executioner (assasin), a Half-orc rogue, has found his father from the Orcan lands has a powerful divining magic item that has told him that his son will help form a very powerful country that will help determine the future of the world. He assumes it will be orcan and is determined that he shall rule and is trying to get our half-orc back.

As for my character, my brother has shown up and tried to convince people I was unfit to rule. After some strong negotiation, he s now second to the General, who doesn't trust me anyway. My brother blames mme for the death of our sister. without going too much into my backstory, in a way he is. He is a cousin to the king of Taldor. His grandfather made a deal with a devil and that's how my character was born. (I am a sorceror with infernal bloodline) When it was time, Irana revolution against the King because I felt that Taldor had declined enough. Needless to say I lost and fled from Taldor to Brevoy and obscurity. In retribution, the King killed our sister, who had nothing to do with the rebellion. That is why he blames me. Of course, my character does feel guilty. My sister was one of the few people who treated me as a human when we were young. Technically they are my half-siblings.

Our DM loves to add stuff. I'd say almost 40% of our exp and 65% of our time has been dealing with his add ons. I am not complaining, I love the stuff he has added in. So Kudos to all DMs who take the time to enrich the adventures with their personalized stuff. Thanks guys! You make the games fun and personable.

How'd we get so far off topic. All he wanted to know was how it would work in campaign. He never said what position he wanted, or even if he wanted a leadership position. And here we are arguing about racism in Golarian. The truth is like any place, Golarian has racism. How wide spread it is is up the DM. We are all gamers, we all play and love Pathfinder. Everyone's version of the world will be different. None are wrong, they are just different. Whether the world is a perfect fantasy place where all "good" races are allied and perfectly friendly against the "dark" races, or it is very gritty, and there is racism in the world, elves believing themselves so superios, dwarves being insulsar and not wanting anything to do with the world, and humans believeing that they should rule everything is up to ecah DM. There is no right or wrong answer.

As for the original question, I think a gnome ranger would be fun for you. I think you will not weaken yourself too much by taking some levels of Oracle. It will affect BAB. I usually prefer one class, maybe two if it makes it easier to get to a prestige class. But, it is your character. Have fun with it. As long as YOU enjoy plaing it, it will be successful. I remember a player creating and playing quite successfully a halfing barbarian. Another person created a half-orc monk who was raised by dwarves. So, have fun, that is the main thing. Any character can be survivable, just use smart tactics that bring you advantages out and limit your disadvatnges.

i guess it all depends how you want your game. our kingdom, while human-centric has a growing halfling population as word of a halfling-led kingdom has begun to spread.

just because you are a "haughty elf" doesn't mean people won't accept you for leader if you're the best person for the job (there's even a form of government called a meritocracy). not all humans are ignorant and racist and if the gm is playing them all that way he is doing everyone a disservice.
however as you said if you are having fun go nuts.
i'm not trying to be a jerk or call anyone racist (gamers have been in my experience the least racist people out there), i'm just a bit tired of the "i'm different race so humans won't want me to be king" argument. my two cents (before taxes).

I have to agree, and disagree. I say if the party is ok with it, you could have any race in the ruler position. While realism can be nice, don't let it interfer with the enjoyment of the game.

Having said that, a human does not have to be racist to not want to be ruled by another race. Other races, with the possible exception of elves, simply don't understand the human mentality enough to rule a kingdom of humans. An elven kingdom actually makes alot of sense in this area. The Stolen Lands have alot of forest with fey, a typical backdrop for elven kingdoms. The only problem with elves is that since they live so long, the kingdom building would go very slow, because wy go fast if you live for several hundred years. If there are any shorter lived races in the party, they will be ong dead before you are ready for the 5th book.

Personally humans are my favorite race to play. I love the extra skill point and feat. Plus, I know ow humans work and think.

Greetings, fellow travellers.

I would actually go for a human character. Sure, you might meet a couple of gnomes along the way, but the whole region is "run" by humans. Imagining a gnome in a leadership position, hm, doesn't work for me.

Ruyan.

I could actually except a gnome in the position of Magister. Gnome illusionists are famous worldwide. another good class for the gnome would be the alchemist. A GM gnome NPC from a previous campaign loved to throw "Tinkerbottom Bombs (his name was Tinkerbottom)." This was before the alchemist class, but that is what he would be.

I doubt there is a "true" reply, it all depend on how your master and your group see the area.

Based on the river kingdoms description and those few encounters with local you have in the initial module I see reasons to say that there is a sparse population of trappers, farmers and loners, enough to say it is sparsely settled wilderness and not a totally empty land.

I will avoid spoilers from later modules, but the general description of the area say that the rivers were used to ferry crusaders going to the Worldwound.
If barges moving people along the rivers were reasonably common till recent times I think that at least some people will have settled along the route to cater to the crusaders need.

** spoiler omitted **

Agreed. It is not a wasteland devoid of human life. However, it is probably even more sparsely populated because of the heavy bandit activity in the area under the Stag Lord. Many Farmers, hunters, etc have been run off or killed because they wouldn't give in to the bandit's "requests." But, yes I agree there would be farmers,hunters, and trappers in the Greenbelt. Otherwise, where would the bandits get there food? They have to steal it from someone.

Palious13 wrote:

Good point. My group has no halfing party members, so they haven't done anything specifically to encourage halfling immigration, but they have enacted strong anti-slavery laws (slavery is illegal, anyone entering the kingdom with slaves has those slaves confiscated and freed, and is then expelled from the kingdom, second offense leads to incarceration, third offense to execution) which could be a draw.

Thanks for the tip. I will look it up. Also. Don't forget that even if those countries do take exception, at least Andorran will stand by them. :-)

I agree totally. 99.9% of the time I try to avoid totally evil characters. But That .1% can be fun. I especially love the bad guy that spys in the group only to be redeemed (with the DMs permission of course). But again there are different levels of evil. I could never play a truly evil character. My "evil" characters always are loyal to their friends and only do evil to those who threaten them or their friends. The whole "no quarter to enemies" thing.

Good point. My group has no halfing party members, so they haven't done anything specifically to encourage halfling immigration, but they have enacted strong anti-slavery laws (slavery is illegal, anyone entering the kingdom with slaves has those slaves confiscated and freed, and is then expelled from the kingdom, second offense leads to incarceration, third offense to execution) which could be a draw.

The only problem with that is it will discourage alot of trade from countries like Cheliax or Katapesh that hold slaves. I knwo it won't affect the game mechanics at all, and even in RP it most likely won't comeup, It is something to remember that there are several important culutures that allow slavery. Even in the River Kingdoms, slavery IS outlawed, but they will not forcefully take another's property. This act could anger a lot of powerful people who could possibly make life harder for them. Don't get me wrong, I am totally against slavery myself. I agree outlawing it is preferrable, but I think freeing any slaves who come into your territory is a little extreme, and undiplomatic.

I'd just add that it would be perfectly within reason to require PC leaders for armies to have ranks in Profession (soldier) to increase their army's CR, or to have a minimum number of ranks to grant a Tactic to their army.

I never liked the Profession(Soldier). To tie something a wariior or fighter might need to Wisdom, seemed a little unfair. If you wanted to have a godd "natural ability" at soldiering you have to sacrifice one of your Physical stats, which are needed in regular combat. I know it gets better as you advance in levels, but think about, a Wizards with Craft(alchemy) use their primary stat. So I wouldn't suggest making Profession(soldier) a requirement for anything,except maybe a prestige class. I bet Aragorn didn't have Profession (soldier), and he was a great general.

You should always be ready to run away. When we started the 4th module (BfB) the 1st random encounter we rolled was the toughest one in the module. It's a good thing we scout with an eidolon and could run away.

I here you. We were 1st level in the forest exploring and ran into a shambling mound. Fortunately, we all had horses and were smart enough to realize we were totally out classed. As a gamer, I understand hating to run from a fight, but I understand a hatred of TPKs more.

I have a question about the map. There are several hexes along the Western, Eastern. and southern borders that are like 99% on the map, in fact it looks like all they are missing are the black line borders. Are those explorable and able to be annexed? I ask because the rules say you can only explore hexes fully on the map.

Maybe a turn off for land, but don't forget, it is a land of technology. That could be very tempting, maybe not for conquest but for raids. And also, it is not a country but a group of independent cities. Easy pickings for a country like the PCs.

Ok. Thanks. Talking with my DM, I think I have discovered part of the problem. I basically learned most of what I know about gaming from him. We started back in second addition. His favorite world is Ravenloft. In his ravenloft campaigns, story was much more important than the combats. So I realy didn't learn how to create Uber powerful characters. Although, when it comes to sory and the social aspect, I rule.

#1 mastake made in AP's. by players. Not planing out your character and not planing out group.

A: AP's are set up to chalange players.
B: My group hase hade 1 AP compleation. And 2 AP TPK.
#2 Most TPK can be prevented by the players.
A: Players did not plan well in advance.
B: Players did not make use of the players guide. (I have seen this one way to meny times. This is what hapend in both of the TPK.)
#3 No amount of planing can remove all danager.
A: Be perpared for any thing.
B: Make a group of characters that can handle any thing.

If you have 5 players what are they playing?
Do they work well with each other?

Im runing Kingmaker right now for a group of 5.
Oracle of Battle (King)
Warlord (Tome of Secrets) (General)
Ranger (Marshal)
Rogue (Spy Master)
Bard (Councilor)

They made the party focused on combat. They lack any real spell caster. The bard and warlord are given me hell. The bard inspire courage +2 and Warlord Comanding Presence +1 give the party a +3 to hit and damage. The bonus damage from this for one round is 21 as two of them are two weapon fighting. So most encounters do not last long.
Level 8 Comanding Presence +2 total +4 (Bonus damge for one round 56)
Level 11 Inspire Courage +3 total +5 (70)
Level 16 Comanding Presence +3 total +6 (138)
Level 17 Inspire Courage +4 Total +7 (161)
Thats just from the Inspire Courage and Comanding Presence abilitys. That is there path to power abilitys that work to gether to make them greater then the sum of the parts. If your group dose not have a path to power you need to find it befor you do any thing past level 12. befor then it is not as critical. After you get there it's to late to try and find it.

The next group we are making is. You just need to have characters that work well to gether.
Halfling jinx caster spec in Evil Eye. Level 9 -7 to all saves.
Bard (Majican) caster buffs.
Socerer (bloodline unknow as of yet.)

I believe we fit together. We have a:

My group and I absolutely LOVE Pathfinder. We have run several of the APs and are really looking forward to KM.

However, that being said, we have a problem. We usually smash everything in books 1,2, and 3 with little effort. Book 4 provides a good challenge and then we die in either book 5 or 6. We have yet to complete an AP successfully. We do have a large group, 6 people(though in kingmaker we only have 5). We are currently in the middle of RRR and so far are doing great. I don't want this campaign to end in tragedy like the rest. Any ideas?

Palious13 wrote:

Who would come to the defense of poor shopkeeper in the face of the secret police, army, and what have you?

Almost every character I have ever played.

Seriusly, folks who employ goon methods to steal from their citizens (and that's what this is) are likely to attract attention from do-gooders, some of whom might be powerful enough to cause problems. Being the target of a paldin's smite should get their attention.

I can see some limited justification for seizing property in the name of the public good if the kingdom faces an imminent threat that the entire population is aware of and agrees is a threat (WW II, for example), but not if the threat is more distant and not all agree it is a threat (Vietnam, for example). Even then, it will be resented, particularly if the government could afford to pay for itbut chooses not to.

And why do players want to do this kind of stuff? It is basically having your character be an a&#*&%!. Do people really want to roleplay a+&#~*!s or play with people who roleplay a+@$!&$s? Aren't there more than enough of them in the real world to deal with?

My point is, no good character would steal from their people.

As to who would want to play such characters, it is role playing. It is a chance to be someone and something you could never do in real life. Besides, it is the villins who make a story great. Where Peter Pan be without Captain Hook. Where would G.I.Joe be without Cobra. Where would... well you get the idea. Granted most of the time it is great to play a hero who saves the world and gets the girl. But this can be cliche and once in awhile it is good to break away and be the villain. I'm just saying.

We are also getting quite a few exiled nobles and knights from Galt. We welcome them and help get them back on their feet. They give us a nobility.

Also, many people misunderstand what I say. We will NOT militariy try to conquer the River Kingdoms. For one, There is no way we have the resources. I was thinking an Empire more like the Holy Roman Empire (not to be confused with the Roman Empire). Each kingdom will have it's own Prince, Duke, Baron, etc. There will be a central Government to regulate trade and combine resources in times of "extreme need." (For some reason I believe there will be alot of those. I must be psychic.)

Plus, if you have the Book of the River Kingdoms, look at the map. There is a lot of territory not under anyone's jurisdiction.

I personally think that NPCs make the campaign interesting and keeps our party from killing each other as it gives us other people to talk to. Here are some of our NPCs:

Oleg: around middle aged, moved to our capital and has become our treasurer, secretly wishes to return to his outpost, which is now our second city, Olegsburg.

Svetlana: slightly younger wife of Oleg, keeps him from taking on more than he can chew. Currently our councilor. Feels she is in over her head, but won't quit until a suitable replacement an be found. Together with Oleg she is probably the only person everyone trusts fully.

Jhod: priest of Erastil. desires to make amends with the church and be reinstated. Has accomplished this. Currently our High Priest.

Akiros: A fallen paladon from Taldor. While he no longer a paladin, he wishes to find a place for himself with a leader he can truly believe in. And he has found it as he is currently a body guard for our rulers. (He stays behind when our Baron goes adventuring to guard the Baroness, who is not a PC.

Lily: an ambitious woman from Brevoy who is looking to improve her station and has a very flirtateous personality

Chief Sootscale: Leader of the Sootscale tribe and loyal ally of PCs, will probably be in charge of silver mine.

These are the game NPCs that have survived to serve the kingdom. There are sooooo many DM NPCs as to take up too much rrom here.

Yeah, that is probably the best thing to do. Cause it would suck if our kingdom was like "The Dire Wolves" and I appear to be a big stag. Cause when winter is coming, that will never turn out good. :/

Nice Game of thrones reference. :-)

Being a player that's already run through the first adventure in the AP, I know we were constantly heading back to Oleg's during our first portion of the adventure. Ammunition and rations were the two main things, along with cashing in treasure. In later chapters it was often to obtain a new mount for someone...

I agree. We made for Oleg's quite often as well. We never spent more then a week out at first. Of course, our DM added a lot of his own to the game and If we were out longer, Oleg's was endanger of being destroyed. At one point, anecromancer sent some zombies, skeletons, and some bandits(he had made a deal with the Stag Lord) to attack Oleg's. We had to stay and help defend it.

It got a little old, but it did help our characters relate to Oleg and Svetlana and ot us some much needed exp beofre venturing too fat into the man killing fields known as the Stolen Lands.

I don't think you have to worry too much about overextending the NPC pool. Like you said a good DM will find people. Remember, they have a new kingdom springing up from nowhere. There will probably be people crawling out of the wood work. The problem will be at least a few will be unsavory. And, since each PC is in a different city, they can't help each other in personal combat if it comes to that.

I also don't think war between the PCs is likely. Most players will try to avoid it as such a war would devestate all, and leave them open to forces like Drevlev or Mivon to walk in and claim their kingdoms. Such a war would definitely be in the interest of many.

I think the biggest problem will be with the distribution of the wealth. The starting BPs are designed to get a good start on a single city district and one kingdom. If you divide it up 4,5, or especially 6 ways, it will go nowhere near as far. And you are right, none of them will probably make king. One or two MIGHT make Duke. This could cause some jealously as the players with less will wonder why.

A passable solution would be to make sure they have definite "sphere's of influence" so as not to step on each other's toes. Also treat it like a confederation of city states. Have one main treasury where the BPs are kept. Each player can take out so much(agreed upon in advance) each turn. Also remember, the resources of the greenbelt are very limited. About half of the hexes are forest, good for cties, but no farms can be built, thus no reduction in consumption.

All in all, they probably won't be as strong as one nation, and thus less likely to survive in an area where many have failed beforebut, if this is what they want, let them try and have fun. I say good luck!

Kamelguru wrote:

I approve of the idea of a council instead of a king. After all, this is the River Kingdoms, they do not like courts and kings, and in such a demanding realm, having a meritocratic oligarchy (which is the only thing I can really think of calling a group of PCs that might need to change out some positions when someone dies during adventuring) is much more logical.

Also removes having to deal with one player being in charge and telling the other players what to do, which not a whole lot of people appreciate.

Actually, my group is steadfastly rejecting being identified as a River Kingdom. Most of them have their origins either in Brevoy or the dwarven kingdoms of the Five Kings Mountains, and they look down on the River Kingdoms as little more than bandit lords with pretensions. Many of their immigrants come from the River Kingdoms, however, and have been pressing the rulers to adopt the River Freedoms. The Baroness and her Council have accepted some but not all and written them into their laws. They've had diplomatic engagement with Mivon and Pitax, primarily to set borders to limit potential expansion(successfully with Mivon, but not with Pitax), but don't think much of either neighbor.

Good and valid point about one player being in charge, and you're right that that isn't the way it usually works in a party. Strangely enough, though, some of the players have begun to defer decisions to the Baroness, particularly when dealing with diplomatic and political issues. Out in the field adventuring, however, she isn't even the party leader, and defers to the dwarven fighter (General) and the cleric of Cayden Cailean.

I agree. My character hates the chaotic nature of the River Kingdoms. He is here to establish law & order. He is actually from Taldor. I fully intend to mold a new empire in the River Kingdoms. My DM is really great with the role playing, but hates evil characters. So I made myself LN and so is the kingdom. The DM also warns to be careful because of the River Freedoms. I have adopted several of them. Though the one about having what you hold seems to me to start a lot of fights and am preparing to change that. He says to be careful because the settlers are from the River Kingdoms and are very protective of their rights. My response is so was Rome until Julius Ceasar showed that they could be conquerors instead.

As for Goverment, we went with the traditional Baron and council. IN theory I could over rule anyone of them. However, I play my character as realizing he doesn't know everything (unsual for a PC, I know). There currently four PC's. One more may be joining shortly. We are all on the council.So far this has worked. Our DM adds alot of personal stuff for our characters. So most of them are too busy to worry about ruling. just so you know, I am playing a sorceror with the INfernal Bloodline. I am evil and ruthless to my enemies or the enemies of MY kingdom. However i am also very loyal and generous to friends and henchmen. I don't send people off to die for no reason. Hence, the LN alignment.

One question, any thoughts on forging the "First River Empire."

While we are still on the subject of Items I'll have to add a few points from my views as a player and DM:

If there is any campaign in which a PC could get away with demanding an item for free this would be it in my mind. You can make any moral justification according to your alignment for this action. A good character can see a threat to his kingdom nearby and see a powerful item that would without a doubt aid in the defense of the common good, at that point it could become an evil act to not take the item(perhaps he just wants to borrow it for a month). Neutrals and evil PCs could act in the same way.Furthermore the Sixth River Freedom is "you have what you hold" in a land where even the common people may have taken a turn a banditry to survive, the disloyalty factor does not make a lot sense to me.Lastly merchants usually don't care what happens to the competition unless they are a consortium/incorporated monopoly.

So my alternative would be to let it happen once or even twice, after that it's clear this may be a habit of the new king and slam a -2 penalty to the economy or send an assassin. If it continues increase the penalty or simply use the existing rules.

As for the Kingdom erupting into civil strife because the King seized the Uber Axe +1. That sounds like a fault with the system and very hilarious.

"How dare the King seize that axe I could never hope to afford, off with his head!"

Either way it seems like a tricky issue that will most likely come up for a few people. I don't even want to think about PCs merely requesting discounts or free mundane items.

I think the most important thing here is the River Freedom. "You have what you hold." This doesn't mean you can steal anything. You have to be able to fight for it. In a ruler's or even a council member's case, what commoner or expert is oing to fight and (if extremely lucky) win or even kill. We know how PCs can hold grudges. I don't think good characters would take. They might establish a loan plan or something of that nature. Evil characters would. But they have minions and alot of them. Who would come to the defense of poor shopkeeper in the face of the secret police, army, and what have you.

On the other hand, if you are a DM, and the players do decide o go ahead and try, remember a powerful character had to create the item. A pity for the players if he happens to be there to "discourage" theft, not necessarily from the PC's.

In our campaign, I was the ruler and indeed everyone was pushing me to get married as soon as possible. As an adventuring sorceror, myife expectancy was not great. Lily was considered but discarded but me as too "common." (My character is actually a cousin of the King of Taldor) A varisian harrower was very breifly considered because she had the charm. But again, she was a commone, and a varisian, not a good choice for a leader. There were a few others. In the end, I decided on a candidate from Restov. My grand Diplomat, a cleric of Abadar (my religion as well)suggested her, as she was a childhood friend. She is a broke noble woman. She is quite loved by the common folks and despite it being an arranged marriage, we have grown quite fond of each other. Only after marrying her did we find out she had a 18 charisma. Extra bonus for Ruler additions.

I know several DMs that would never run an evil campaign. My experience with this campaign was good. Our DM actually said we could be evil if we wanted, but it had to be lawful evil. When we created the kingdom, it was lawful neutral. I was a lawful evil Infernal sorceror who became the king. I modeled him more on Palpatine before becoming emperor, or a Good Roman Emperor, like Augustus. He was really only evil to the enemies of his coutry. And that worked. I admit he did plant evidence that Grigori was a spy from a foreign country that our lawful neutral warden found. It turned out alright as he admitted it in return for exile instead of execution. And off he went never to be seen again.

I agree with Brian. talk with the rest of the party. If none of them want the rulership keep him as an NPC. If they would rather have a player in the position then chose on of the ways mentioned to get rid of him. But as you are leaving it should be up to the group remaining.