Best trap a pc can buy is a bear trap, cheap, really strong for its level (to get out of), and only a full round action to set it. My PC has four, they are magically enchanted by this point so there still relevant at mid level+1 This.
The traps are a joke, the bear trap and 'poachers boot' are the only traps worth using. The CR and construction costs are laughably huge.
Like I mean really?
The Vietnam war must have cost trillons for the Viet Cong for all those improvised punji pits etc...
MINIMUM cost of a pit is 250gp?? What, does that come with the title deeds of the land as well or something?
this must be why all traps are useless - to make a decent one would cost more than the value of any items it would be used to protect.
;-)
A CR 1 pit isn't just a 10-foot deep hole in the ground. They're covered with something, as you wouldn't need a DC 20 perception check to notice and a DC 20 disable device to disable a Large hole in the ground.
I craft a suit of masterwork chainmail +20 take a 10 -> 30 at 900 sp per week -> 4 weeks
I craft a suit of mithril chainmail with the exact same skill -> 48 weeks.
I could understand mithril taking longer, but 12 times longer is just way out of whack. There are a lot of goofy things like that when it comes to crafting.
You want to really cry?
It takes ten times longer to craft a gold ring than an identical one except made of silver ;)
Anyway, trap rules are messed up. The make-your-own rules are terrible, but the example traps are often horribly mis-CRed.
Actually I can imagine 20 ft pit costing a lot just try to find out how much it costs to have a well dug, and that is with modern tools and machinery. How much would you ask for digging 1 meter of packed earth and then chsseling two more through stone, no questions asked not remembered where it was?
\
Why can't you dig it yourself?
It's really not hard to dig a 10' x 10'x10' hole.
I have to dig stupid holes like that all the time with an entrenching tool. Tiring and tedious, sure, but not something it takes a feat of brilliance to achieve...! I wanna know where my 250gp is at :)
It'd be even easier to make a hole with magic...
I think traps should hamper the party as they are in combat or doing something else important.
* Wall Scythe Trap CR4 whilst crossing a narrow plank under enemy fire. The trap can be disabled from the other side (ie the rogue has to cross to disable it)
* Frost Fangs Trap (duration 3 rounds, 3d6 cold damage/round) at a locked door - did they notice the trap? Now how quickly can the rogue unlock the door? Throw in an Ice Golem for fun.
* Summon Monster trap (customise to the party's level) has a Perception DC 31 - put it next to a trap with a much lower Perception DC.
* A Pit trap (CR 1) full of water (CR +5) and an Ingested Poison, such as ID moss (CR +? ingested ones aren't listed). Place two of them in a row so that wizard has to make a 20' leap, and/or don't give them space for a running start. What's the ACP for breastplate, and do you have ranks in Swim to avoid swallowing the poisoned water?
* Cover the 'controls' for any trap with a contact poison - will the rogue dare touch it?
* Electric Arc trap on a wall section that needs to be climbed.
* Fireball trap having retrieved something valuable yet highly flammable.
* Camouflaged Pit Trap full of lantern oil, followed by Fireball Trap in the next room.
* Combine two deadly traps - Disabling one triggers the other, how do you want to die?
* Place a pit trip at the obvious source of cover.
* The door cannot open unless the trap is sprung.
* Add Alarm or some other loud effect to each trap, to alert the bugbears.
* Shocking Floor trap used when the enemy all have Fly.
* Swinging Axe Trap that will destroy the Glass Goddess statuette (value 2000gp) if it doesn't hit someone when triggered.
* An Improved Overrun or Bullrush or Trip trap (a heavy bag swinging round with CMB +10?, duration 2d4) triggered in combat. Naturally, the enemy knows where it is and how to use it to their advantage.
Make your own traps based on your favourite spells.
* A Colour Spray trap sprung during combat.
* A Bag of Trick trap. A new fuzz-ball falls from the roof every round till disabled.
* Fog Cloud and Summon Swarm (bats for the blind sense).
* Web and Alarm to alert the bugbears.
* Reverse Gravity traps with a spiked ceiling.
Augment the listed traps. Especially fun is changing Reset to Auto (CR +1) with poison dart/arrow/spear traps. Hit the PCs with multiple doses of poison.
Have the kobolds take cover behind crates that built in poison dart traps with auto reset.
Look at Haunts as an alternative to traps, but also as an inspiration for mundane traps.
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A 20x10x10 pit is 2000 cubic feet. Let's say you're digging through fairly loose soil and it only takes 10 minutes to dig 35 cubic feet (roughly one cubic meter). That's still roughly an hour of digging.
Believe me, I know all about digging. If you ever have the joy of serving as an Infantryman you will learn all you ever wanted to know about digging defensive positions... from small shell scrapes through to fighting bays, trenches etc.
When you are digging short term fortifications like that yuo are going to be spending more than an hour doing it, you might have your good self and a couple of friends digging for a good afternoon or more, and with scrubby little entrenching tools - not the best piece of gear, but works well enough.
If you aren't staying long then digging a pit (10' deep would be plenty) is something that can be achieved with just some sweat and tears... you don't need to protect it too well as it is there as a temporary defensive measure.
So why does it cost 250gp?
Similarly, if I could cast move earth why can't I just make a pit trap, why is it still 250gp to manufacture?
2nd ed did improvised traps MUCH better.
Ok so we go back to the 'improvised' trap.
Substitute 'us' for 'Hobkobgoblins', and the 'Hobkobgoblins' are building a pit traps and spiked traps around their camp as they know nasty adventurers are coming. These are all still CR1.
There aren't separate rules for improvised traps, all we have is trap-traps.
So either we have trap-traps per RAW, or no trap.
Similarly the costs don't reference the material they are built into on any significant basis... you pay for the trap.
I applaud the new Ranger Trapper in UM, but would like to see it extended.
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Actually I can imagine 20 ft pit costing a lot just try to find out how much it costs to have a well dug, and that is with modern tools and machinery. How much would you ask for digging 1 meter of packed earth and then chsseling two more through stone, no questions asked not remembered where it was?\
Why can't you dig it yourself?
It's really not hard to dig a 10' x 10'x10' hole.
I have to dig stupid holes like that all the time with an entrenching tool. Tiring and tedious, sure, but not something it takes a feat of brilliance to achieve...! I wanna know where my 250gp is at :)It'd be even easier to make a hole with magic...
I'm guessing the 10x10x10 250gp only comes into play in a stone dungeon... a beautiful work of masonry, professional flip plate, some art to conceal the plate from the rest of the hallway stones / blend it in the surrounding pattern, ets.
In a forest though, any DM worth its salt would handwaive that cost and allow you to craft it for free if you have a few strong dudes with shovels... I would ask for a Craft: Trapmaking check to conceal the hole (opposed by Perception to find it)
Too simple? maybe
Do I care? no
now, the costs get really screwy with poison. look at the cost difference between a CR 1 arrow trap, and the same trap with a wyvern poison to make it cr 6. thats +5000gp just to poison an arrow in a trap. the poison itself is listed as costing 3000gp, so where does the other 2000gp go?
That's not even the crazy part. That 5000gp? Yeah, that doesn't actually cover the cost of the poison. The full price of the poison is added on as an additional cost. So now we are looking at a one shot CR 6 trap that costs 9,000gp in total to set up and install.
After you've determined the cost by Challenge Rating, add the price of any alchemical items or poison you incorporated into the trap. If the trap uses one of these elements and has an automatic reset, multiply the poison or alchemical item cost by 20 to provide an adequate supply of doses.
So yeah... it apparently costs 5000gp to properly, and safely apply poison to the trap. And heaven forbid if you want the trap to spring more than one time...
Actually I can imagine 20 ft pit costing a lot just try to find out how much it costs to have a well dug, and that is with modern tools and machinery. How much would you ask for digging 1 meter of packed earth and then chsseling two more through stone, no questions asked not remembered where it was?\
Why can't you dig it yourself?
It's really not hard to dig a 10' x 10'x10' hole.
I have to dig stupid holes like that all the time with an entrenching tool. Tiring and tedious, sure, but not something it takes a feat of brilliance to achieve...! I wanna know where my 250gp is at :)It'd be even easier to make a hole with magic...
You are an adventurer - your time is VALUABLE. As DM I'd certainly let you do it yourself for lesser cost, but you should consider what else you could have achieved during that time.
I have learned a lot about traps and crafting from this thread. Very interesting.
You are an adventurer - your time is VALUABLE. As DM I'd certainly let you do it yourself for lesser cost, but you should consider what else you could have achieved during that time.
Well sometimes building traps and pits is part of being an adventurer... the life of a Soldier is not all glamour and fancy uniforms to pull hot chicks. It's not all action and swinging swords... its actually 90% boredom.
So for our adventurers, we can handwave along the abstracted time with 'you dig a pit for two days' then spend the session swinging swords and doing the fun stuff... :)
If we are utilising 10' pit traps then we are probably lower end, and then the answer to your question about what else we could have been doing with our valuable time becomes 'not much, other than hanging out at the nearest tavern and bothering the barmaids' :p
You are an adventurer - your time is VALUABLE. As DM I'd certainly let you do it yourself for lesser cost, but you should consider what else you could have achieved during that time.Well sometimes building traps and pits is part of being an adventurer... the life of a Soldier is not all glamour and fancy uniforms to pull hot chicks. It's not all action and swinging swords... its actually 90% boredom.
So for our adventurers, we can handwave along the abstracted time with 'you dig a pit for two days' then spend the session swinging swords and doing the fun stuff... :)
If we are utilising 10' pit traps then we are probably lower end, and then the answer to your question about what else we could have been doing with our valuable time becomes 'not much, other than hanging out at the nearest tavern and bothering the barmaids' :p
Two days of digging traps could be two days of rolling random encounters as well...
This is a pet peeve of mine but trapfinding being a rogue ability? Ha!!
Ways to get trapfinding:
1) 1st level rogue (a bunch of archetypes give that up)
2) 3rd level urban ranger
3) 1st level trapper ranger
4) 1st level seeker oracle*
5) 1st level seeker sorcerer*
6) 1st level crypt breaker alchemist
7) 2nd level detective bard*
8) The 2nd level bard/alchemist/wizard spell Aram Zey's focus (too bad the duration is only 1 minute per level)
9) 2nd level archevist bard*
10) 6th level archeologist bard*
11) 1st level sandman bard*
*those 6 get trapfinding in everything but the name
This list is pre-ARG and pre-UM so there might be even more ways to get trapfinding.
Now as you can see trapfinding is quite common, in fact there is even a SPELL that can give you trapfinding.
This is a pet peeve of mine but trapfinding being a rogue ability? Ha!!Ways to get trapfinding:
1) 1st level rogue (a bunch of archetypes give that up)
2) 3rd level urban ranger
3) 1st level trapper ranger
4) 1st level seeker oracle*
5) 1st level seeker sorcerer*
6) 1st level crypt breaker alchemist
7) 2nd level detective bard*
8) The 2nd level bard/alchemist/wizard spell Aram Zey's focus (too bad the duration is only 1 minute per level)
9) 2nd level archevist bard*
10) 6th level archeologist bard*
11) 1st level sandman bard**those 6 get trapfinding in everything but the name
This list is pre-ARG and pre-UM so there might be even more ways to get trapfinding.
Now as you can see trapfinding is quite common, in fact there is even a SPELL that can give you trapfinding.
Geez. Major thread necromancy here. Didn't you guys know necromancy is evil? :)
But, yep too many people got trapfinding. The magic types should use magic (or alchemy as the case may be). Some could do without it. You can fix that easy in the home game though. As for detective and archeologist, better as Rogue archtypes imo. And, on the original old OP, yeah traps used to be scarier than most "monster" encounters.
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Some random comments:
1) divide the price of most traps by 10 and you won't go far wrong.
2) digging a 10'x10'x10' pit in a forest is going to be seriously hard work. You will need lots of shovels (ideally steel), pickaxes, axes to chop through roots, rope & buckets to lift the 40+ tons of spoil out of the hole, a wheelbarrow to take the spoil away and hide it, ideally with planks to make a road, a ladder to climb out of this crumbling hole, maybe some boards or bricks & mortar to shore the sides up and some way to cover the evidence of all the manual labour that's been going on around this supposedly secret hole. And then it'll probably fill with 2' of water at the bottom so does nonlethal damage.
3) Pits are good for catching animals and slowing people down. If you want to hurt someone with a pit, put spikes in it. A pit like that need only be about 4' deep. And a non-concealed pit can use the spoil to make the walls higher.
4) The list of non-rogue methods missed the Cleric 2 spell Find Traps which has existed since the Dark Ages.
Some random comments:
1) divide the price of most traps by 10 and you won't go far wrong.
Agreed, they are way overpriced.
2) digging a 10'x10'x10' pit in a forest is going to be seriously hard work. You will need lots of shovels (ideally steel), pickaxes, axes to chop through roots, rope & buckets to lift the 40+ tons of spoil out of the hole, a wheelbarrow to take the spoil away and hide it, ideally with planks to make a road, a ladder to climb out of this crumbling hole, maybe some boards or bricks & mortar to shore the sides up and some way to cover the evidence of all the manual labour that's been going on around this supposedly secret hole. And then it'll probably fill with 2' of water at the bottom so does nonlethal damage.
Why fill it with water?
3) Pits are good for catching animals and slowing people down. If you want to hurt someone with a pit, put spikes in it. A pit like that need only be about 4' deep. And a non-concealed pit can use the spoil to make the walls higher.
That won't hurt anyone unless you are treating the pit like caltrops.
And then it'll probably fill with 2' of water at the bottom so does nonlethal damage.
Why fill it with water?
That's the rain. Or the ground water. If you dig a hole deep enough, it'll fill with water to the level of the water table. A forest needs water to grow; without water you get plains or scrub. Obviously it won't fill so much in summer or whatever dry season you have, but in winter it'll be soaking, and so will half the mud you're digging out.
That won't hurt anyone unless you are treating the pit like caltrops.3) Pits are good for catching animals and slowing people down. If you want to hurt someone with a pit, put spikes in it. A pit like that need only be about 4' deep. And a non-concealed pit can use the spoil to make the walls higher.
It'll hurt as much as the DM decides it'll hurt. I recommend 1d6. Try stepping off a table (about 2'6") onto some 1' spikes. I imagine it'll hurt.