Boar style

[Enaris]

I have a few questions about the boar style feats in Ultimate combat.
These feats read:
Boar style (combat)
Prerequisites: Improved unarmed strike, Intimidate 3 ranks
You can deal bludgeoning damage or slashing damage with your unarmed strikes—changing damage type is a free action. While using this style, once per round when you hit a single foe with two or more unarmed strikes, you can tear flesh. When you do, you deal 2d6 bleed damage with the attack.

Boar Ferocity (Combat)
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Boar Style, Intimidate 6 ranks.
Benefit: You add piercing damage to the damage types you can deal with your unarmed strikes. Further, you gain a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks to demoralize opponents. While using Boar Style, whenever you tear an opponent’s flesh, you can spend a free action to make an Intimidate
check to demoralize that opponent.

Boar Shred (Combat)
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Boar Ferocity, Boar Style, Intimidate 9 ranks.
Benefit: You can make an Intimidate check to demoralize an opponent as a move action. While using Boar Style, whenever you tear an opponent’s flesh, once per round at the start of that opponent’s turn he takes 1d6 bleed damage. The bleed damage dealt while using Boar Style persist even
if you later switch to a different style.

The extra bleed damage in this third feat confuses me. Since bleed damage does not normally stack with itself, and since you have already torn flesh and therefore activated the 2d6 bleed from boar style, the 1d6 bleed damage from boar shred has no effect. It does not stack, and all bleed damage occurs on the opponent's turn in the first place.
Does it stack, so when you tear flesh that opponent takes 3d6? Does it progress, so they take 2d6 then 3d6 then 4d6, etc?

[Stynkk]

My reading is that the designers intended this to be an extra 1d6 of bleed damage at the beginning of the opponent's turn.

So, on the opponent's turn the opponent will take 2d6 from Tearing (Boar Ferocity) and an additional 1d6 from Boar Shred.

This is unusual because (as you said) bleed damage of the same type (HP) usually don't stack together, but I think the bleed from these two feats was meant to stack.

I do not think it will stack beyond the 3d6, so it will cap at 3d6.

[Skull]

I found the 1st 2d6 bleed damage to be incorrect. I think what they tried doing was emulation TW rend. So I would see that as 2d6 damage "that does not apply to DR" rather than actual bleed till healed.

Honest, a little goblin sensei told me so...

[vidmaster]

hmm my impression is that the intial bleed damage (2d6) is just the 2d6 and doesn't continue its just the type of damage it deals. then the other effect the 1d6 would be as it says unless you use the other maneuver for the 2d6 that might overshadow.

[Bobson]

I think 2d6 bleed is too strong for the first feat as well, since it's already a moderately decent feat and the start of a whole chain. I suspect the intent was "2d6 rend" instead, and then the last feat adds true bleeding. FAQ time.

[Mathwei ap Niall]

Stynkk wrote:

My reading is that the designers intended this to be an extra 1d6 of bleed damage at the beginning of the opponent's turn.

So, on the opponent's turn the opponent will take 2d6 from Tearing (Boar Ferocity) and an additional 1d6 from Boar Shred.

This is unusual because (as you said) bleed damage of the same type (HP) usually don't stack together, but I think the bleed from these two feats was meant to stack.

I do not think it will stack beyond the 3d6, so it will cap at 3d6.

I'm going to have to agree with Stynkk here. As written it states it as an exception to the usual bleed stacking rules so yeah, 3D6 bleed damage per round if you hit with 2 strikes.

HOWEVER once the devs look at it and realize that they gave out 3D6 un-soakable bleed damage with no save I fully expect it to quickly be errated into the 2D6 being regular damage and only the final 1D6 being bleed.

[Chris Kenney]

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Stynkk wrote:

My reading is that the designers intended this to be an extra 1d6 of bleed damage at the beginning of the opponent's turn.

So, on the opponent's turn the opponent will take 2d6 from Tearing (Boar Ferocity) and an additional 1d6 from Boar Shred.

This is unusual because (as you said) bleed damage of the same type (HP) usually don't stack together, but I think the bleed from these two feats was meant to stack.

I do not think it will stack beyond the 3d6, so it will cap at 3d6.

I'm going to have to agree with Stynkk here. As written it states it as an exception to the usual bleed stacking rules so yeah, 3D6 bleed damage per round if you hit with 2 strikes.

HOWEVER once the devs look at it and realize that they gave out 3D6 un-soakable bleed damage with no save I fully expect it to quickly be errated into the 2D6 being regular damage and only the final 1D6 being bleed.

Since, as-written, a third level monk can take it and kill anything such a character would be fighting in one round (Sure, the target might still be shuffling around for a bit afterwards, but the fight is largely academic after that...)

....yeah, I can't believe this was intended to be "Bleed" damage on the first feat.

[Stynkk]

Currently it states bleed damage, so that is what I was working with, but it could be errata'd to some other type of damage.

[Kaisoku]

Apparently when you switch stances, the bleed damage stops. As the third feat states that it continues even if you switch stances.

So with only one feat, you do 2d6 bleed damage.
If you switch stances, the bleeding somehow stops.

With all three feats, you do 2d6 bleed damage (doesn't stack).
But when you switch stances, it changes to 1d6 bleed damage until healed.

This flies in the face of a lot of core mechanics, so I think I might wait on errata for this one.

[Enaris]

Kaisoku wrote:

Apparently when you switch stances, the bleed damage stops. As the third feat states that it continues even if you switch stances.

So with only one feat, you do 2d6 bleed damage.
If you switch stances, the bleeding somehow stops.

With all three feats, you do 2d6 bleed damage (doesn't stack).
But when you switch stances, it changes to 1d6 bleed damage until healed.

This flies in the face of a lot of core mechanics, so I think I might wait on errata for this one.

I think that this highlights the fact that the 2d6 from Boar Style is bleed type damage, but does not continue after round one. The fact that I copied this right out of the book and onto this page, and no one has said QUITE the same thing pretty much screams errata.

The third feat states that the bleed damage from the style (I.e. as a whole) does not end if you switch styles.

[Chris Kenney]

Enaris wrote:

I think that this highlights the fact that the 2d6 from Boar Style is bleed type damage....

The thing is, "bleed" is not a damage type, it's a condition. By definition the damage continues from round to round if it's called "bleed" until stopped, by default by any healing effect.

[Enaris]

Chris Kenney wrote:

Enaris wrote:

I think that this highlights the fact that the 2d6 from Boar Style is bleed type damage....

The thing is, "bleed" is not a damage type, it's a condition. By definition the damage continues from round to round if it's called "bleed" until stopped, by default by any healing effect.

But also, it does not stack. Something is off with these feat descriptions, and its more a matter of what it means than what it says, because what it says is nonsensical.

[Chris Kenney]

Enaris wrote:

Chris Kenney wrote:

Enaris wrote:

I think that this highlights the fact that the 2d6 from Boar Style is bleed type damage....

The thing is, "bleed" is not a damage type, it's a condition. By definition the damage continues from round to round if it's called "bleed" until stopped, by default by any healing effect.

But also, it does not stack. Something is off with these feat descriptions, and its more a matter of what it means than what it says, because what it says is nonsensical.

Right. Home games, this is my working assumption for what happened: In Development, Boar Style simply read "2d6 additional damage," to be interpreted as "of the type dealt." Then, in editing, someone saw that Boar Shred did "An additional 1d6 bleed damage" and, ignorant of the fact that "bleed" has specific rules connotations attached felt that it read better if the 'type' of damage in both feats matched and changed Boar Style accordingly.

[rainsinger]

Chris Kenney wrote:

Enaris wrote:

Chris Kenney wrote:

Enaris wrote:

I think that this highlights the fact that the 2d6 from Boar Style is bleed type damage....

The thing is, "bleed" is not a damage type, it's a condition. By definition the damage continues from round to round if it's called "bleed" until stopped, by default by any healing effect.

But also, it does not stack. Something is off with these feat descriptions, and its more a matter of what it means than what it says, because what it says is nonsensical.

Right. Home games, this is my working assumption for what happened: In Development, Boar Style simply read "2d6 additional damage," to be interpreted as "of the type dealt." Then, in editing, someone saw that Boar Shred did "An additional 1d6 bleed damage" and, ignorant of the fact that "bleed" has specific rules connotations attached felt that it read better if the 'type' of damage in both feats matched and changed Boar Style accordingly.

My assumption (as was mentioned above) and probably the most accurate, IMO, of the possibilities here, was that the intention of Boar Style was to give a "rend" effect for 2d6, and then Boar Shred was intended to be an actual Bleed. It could be read either way, of course (which is the problem), but note that in Boar Style it makes it sound like they are supposed to take the damage immediately "While using this style, once per round when you hit a single foe with two or more unarmed strikes, you can tear f lesh. When you do, you deal 2d6 bleed damage with the attack."

[Drejk]

I agree with interpretation that Boar Style was intended to give rend-like effect with caveat that it does not affect creatures immune to bleed damage and Boar Shred was intended to be actual bleed.

[Talonhawke]

They way we handled it was that its all bleed but like the third one says that whenever you tear flesh once per round at the start of that opponents turn they take 1d6 bleed. So for us it lets you restart the bleed each round if they are healed and if no healing the damage carries over even if you change styles. But if you change styles you can't start someone bleeding again until you tear flesh again.

Boar Shred (Combat)
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Boar Ferocity, Boar Style, Intimidate 9 ranks.
Benefit: You can make an Intimidate check to demoralize an opponent as a move action. While using Boar Style, whenever you tear an opponent’s flesh, once per round at the start of that opponent’s turn he takes 1d6 bleed damage. The bleed damage dealt while using Boar Style persist even if you later switch to a different style.

[The Shining Fool]

This is marked as answered in FAQ. I'm not seeing it. Is it in the Ultimate Combat FAQ, or somewhere else?

[The Shining Fool]

Hopeful bump

[The Shining Fool]

One more hopeful bump, then I'll give up.

[Molten Dragon]

I too am interested in the answer to these questions.

Side question (not to derail or highjack). Does a critter with fast heal end the bleed effect? Which happens first FH or bleed at start of its turn?

[Omikapsi]

I would also like to know, and am bumping this thread rather than starting another one.
Also, I checked the FAQ, both Core and Ultimate combat, and found no mention of Boar Style or Bleed in either of them.

[The Shining Fool]

To be clear, the question being asked here is:

1) What is the intended text of Boar Style and Boar Shred feats?

and

2) If the the text is correct as written, does the 1d6 bleed damage from Boar Shred stack with that from Boar Style?

Please FAQ this post if you, like me, are curious about these issues.

[Barry Armstrong]

I always read it as:

The first feat requires two successful unarmed strikes, and the extra damage dice are applied immediately, once, on that turn only.

The second feat requires the first feat to be applied, and the extra damage die is applied the next round, once, at the start of that turn only.

The term "bleed damage" is simply a label for the damage type, to separate it from other extra damage types. It is not a "bleed effect". It is simply damage labeled bleed. Minor but significant semantic distinction (and one that needs to be clarified by someone "official").

Neither need to worry about stacking because their damage is immediate, applied only once, and separated. When the second feat's bleed damage is applied, the first feat's bleed damage mechanic is "expired", and vice-versa.

[ArmouredMonk13]

Why label it at all if it isn't a bleed effect? Why not say its additional precision damage like other feats that add damage, and furthermore, why say the bleed damage persists in Boar Shred? Labeling it bleed suggests that the target will take bleed damage each round.

[Barry Armstrong]

The first question I cannot answer, as I didn't write the feat. The lack of clarity is why I play it as above, so it works per RAW. I can say that it's not precision damage, though, as it is not specified as precision, and in fact doesn't rely on the strikes hitting the same place. Just the same opponent. You could hit him in the head and in the kneecap and still trigger the flesh rending.

The second feat's wording is to clarify that that extra 1d6 will trigger on your opponent's turn no matter what, even if you're no longer in Boar Style.

For instance, if your turn ends, and right away, when the opponent's turn happens, you utilize a swift action to go from Boar to Dragon, that bleed damage from Boar Shred will still happen.

I liken Boar Style to sword combat in Kill Bill. If you notice, the hits have huge spurts of blood, but then in the next combat sequence, they're not bleeding anymore (until hit again).

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

Enaris wrote:

I have a few questions about the boar style feats in Ultimate combat.

These feats read:
Boar style (combat)
Prerequisites: Improved unarmed strike, Intimidate 3 ranks
You can deal bludgeoning damage or slashing damage with your unarmed strikes—changing damage type is a free action. While using this style, once per round when you hit a single foe with two or more unarmed strikes, you can tear flesh. When you do, you deal 2d6 bleed damage with the attack.

Boar Ferocity (Combat)
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Boar Style, Intimidate 6 ranks.
Benefit: You add piercing damage to the damage types you can deal with your unarmed strikes. Further, you gain a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks to demoralize opponents. While using Boar Style, whenever you tear an opponent’s flesh, you can spend a free action to make an Intimidate
check to demoralize that opponent.

Boar Shred (Combat)
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Boar Ferocity, Boar Style, Intimidate 9 ranks.
Benefit: You can make an Intimidate check to demoralize an opponent as a move action. While using Boar Style, whenever you tear an opponent’s flesh, once per round at the start of that opponent’s turn he takes 1d6 bleed damage. The bleed damage dealt while using Boar Style persist even
if you later switch to a different style.

The extra bleed damage in this third feat confuses me. Since bleed damage does not normally stack with itself, and since you have already torn flesh and therefore activated the 2d6 bleed from boar style, the 1d6 bleed damage from boar shred has no effect. It does not stack, and all bleed damage occurs on the opponent's turn in the first place.
Does it stack, so when you tear flesh that opponent takes 3d6? Does it progress, so they take 2d6 then 3d6 then 4d6, etc?

While I cannot find any back up to RAW terms of this, IMHO it comes off as the initial 2d6 Bleed Damage as being Immediate in both happening and ending. (Perhaps the blood sprays/spurts out from the initial Raking of your fingers)The 1d6 Bleed Damage seems to be the bleed damage that starts with the opponents turn and persists until they either die or are healed in some fashion to make the bleeding stop. (Perhaps this bleeding damage is less on the surface and deeper within the muscle and tissue or possibly ravages some of the bigger arteries of the opponent) This is my interpretation of it.

FAQ'd even still. I look forward to an official answer for it.

[Barry Armstrong]

Correct. Even I was missing some wording in my interpretation.

At closer glance, Boar style does immediate bleed damage once. Boar Shred does bleed damage every round.

[Michael Sayre]

Omikapsi wrote:

I would also like to know, and am bumping this thread rather than starting another one.

Also, I checked the FAQ, both Core and Ultimate combat, and found no mention of Boar Style or Bleed in either of them.

Ditto'd, very curious about what FAQ these are supposed to be answered in....

[TGMaxMaxer]

They should just change Boar Style to be a rend effect, which means it happens once, and Boar Shred a bleed effect every round until healed.

[The Shining Fool]

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

They should just change Boar Style to be a rend effect, which means it happens once, and Boar Shred a bleed effect every round until healed.

I agree, but in the meantime I'll go for a FAQ. :-P

[Barry Armstrong]

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

They should just change Boar Style to be a rend effect, which means it happens once, and Boar Shred a bleed effect every round until healed.

Concur. It sure seems this is a typo. A confusing one.

[Pink Dragon]

My read is that in the first turn when the attack is made and there are two successful hits, the opponents takes 2d6 bleed damage from the boar style feat. Every turn thereafter the opponent takes an additional 1d6 bleed damage from the original wound if the attacker also had the boar shred feat.

For the sake of balance, I would rule that any additional 2d6 bleed done to the same opponent from boar style feat does initiate another 1d6 bleed due to the boar shred feat.

[Shoga]

Just a note, the description in the Feat list Ultimate Combat page 86. The feat Boar Style has a typo stating " Unarmed strikes deal bludgeoning or piercing damage." Which should read "Unarmed strikes deal bludgeoning or slashing damage."

And I was curious about the "bleed damage" as well.

One more thing I noticed.

Boar Ferocity (Combat)
Your flesh-ripping unarmed strikes terrify your victims.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Boar Style, Intimidate 6 ranks.
Benefit: You add piercing damage to the damage types you can deal with your unarmed strikes. Further, you gain a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks to demoralize opponents. While using Boar Style, whenever you tear an opponent's flesh, you can spend a free action to make an Intimidate check to demoralize that opponent.

Boar Shred (Combat)
The wounds you inflict with your unarmed strikes bleed, giving you renewed vigor.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Boar Ferocity, Boar Style, Intimidate 9 ranks.
Benefit: You can make an Intimidate check to demoralize an opponent as a move action . While using Boar Style, whenever you tear an opponent's flesh, once per round at the start of that opponent's turn he takes 1d6 bleed damage. The bleed damage dealt while using Boar Style persist even if you later switch to a different style.

The demoralize check goes from a free action to a move. Seems kinda backwards to me.

Shogahin

[Devilkiller]

I think the move action Intimidate is a separate benefit which allows you to use Intimidate to demoralize an opponent as a move action rather than a standard action. This wouldn't require hitting the opponent twice and tearing its flesh first like the free action Intimidate from Boar Ferocity would.

[Shoga]

Ok, allow me to state this differently. For Boar Shred, if you intimidate as a move action, you cannot make a full attack which means you won't be getting more than 1 attack per round (usually) so no rending damage nor any bleed damage. I wouldn't be using this option. I would be using Boar Style, rend then use free action to intimidate.

Shoga

[Imbicatus]

It gives you the ability to make two Demoralizes a round. You can spend a Move to Demoralize one, and then a Standard to Demoralize another. It gives you more options.

[Shoga]

Imbicatus wrote:

It gives you the ability to make two Demoralizes a round. You can spend a Move to Demoralize one, and then a Standard to Demoralize another. It gives you more options.

True. So depending on what you want to do. 1) Make a full attack and demoralize one opponent or 2)Demoralize an opponent, one attack and then demoralize another opponent.

Options are a good thing...

Shogahin

[Avatar_name_1]

Could you use this style feat line and use stunning fist as part of a monk's flurry of blows and make them shaken and then upon hitting them at least twice use your free action to make them frightened with boar ferocity? Each states in their description that you can't use that same source to cause a foe to be frightened, but what about using two different sources?

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

Omikapsi wrote:

I would also like to know, and am bumping this thread rather than starting another one.

Also, I checked the FAQ, both Core and Ultimate combat, and found no mention of Boar Style or Bleed in either of them.

I just checked these as well, and found no mention of boar anything. It says answered in faq, so where's the faq?

[Michael Sayre]

I think this may have been a victim of a "bug" they had a while back that was causing items to automatically be marked as answered and kicked out of the queue. Whether the bug was digital or biological in nature I have no idea, but the best thing to do here may be to start a new thread and start stumping for FAQ clicks again. Since this is already marked answered it won't hit their radar again (at least not through FAQs in this thread).

[GM Enaris]

I believe this was marked answered incorrectly. I'm not sure who to contact about this, but I don't want to spam threads looking for the answer. I know I'm kind of raising this from the dead but I decided to rule it as rend damage at the style level and bleed damage at the shred level.
Feel free to FAQ The Shining Fool's excellent recap, just a few posts above.

[Ravingdork]

Yeah, this is in no way addressed in the FAQ. Undo! Undo!

[DM Under The Bridge]

Lol, I just take bleeding attack and boar style, no need to take all of them. Seems a bit unnecessary.

[Ar'ruum]

I can agree that boar style seems to be a bit powerful for a 3rd level feat. I can agree that there is probably typo there somewhere.

However, to try to say that in this case "bleed damage" is simply identifying the type of damage and it somehow doesn't signify 'Bleed Damage' I think is a bit erroneous. It reads, B L E E D D A M A G E, just like every other reference to bleed damage. So if I were to make an interpretation on this, I would say that it is ongoing bleed damage.

With the current "Bleed Damage" rules, there does not seem to be anything that suggests that it ends if you change forms, except for the confusing caveat mentioned in the Boar Shred description.

Frankly, it would make much more sense if the descriptions for Boar Shred and Boar Style were swapped. This would make the progression look like this:

Boar Style wrote:

You can make an Intimidate check to demoralize an opponent as a move action. While using Boar Style, whenever you tear an opponent’s flesh, once per round at the start of that opponent’s turn he takes 1d6 bleed damage. The bleed damage dealt while using Boar Style persist even if you later switch to a different style.

Boar Ferocity wrote:

You add piercing damage to the damage types you can deal with your unarmed strikes. Further, you gain a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks to demoralize opponents. While using Boar Style, whenever you tear an opponent’s flesh, you can spend a free action to make an Intimidate check to demoralize that opponent.

Boar Shred wrote:

You can deal bludgeoning damage or slashing damage with your unarmed strikes—changing damage type is a free action. While using this style, once per round when you hit a single foe with two or more unarmed strikes, you can tear flesh. When you do, you deal 2d6 bleed damage with the attack.

So now we have the intimidate that progresses in action, as well as an increase to the intimidate roll (+2 bonus on intimidate rolls):

(Normal) Standard Action -> (Boar Style) Move Action-> (Boar Ferocity) Free Action

You do have stacking bleed damage that starts small (1d6 bleed) and becomes much more substantial after investing 3 feats (+2d6 bleed) along with a demoralized victim.

Lastly, as with a few of the other style feats, you gain the option of ONE different type of damage, this then scales to more damage types options as the style path progresses, finishing in essentially making each damage type an option.

This is how I believe it should be errata'd.

[KingMeander]

BLUF:I just want to echo the confusion already expressed by others. I do see that the original post is marked as "Answered in the FAQ" but when I checked the FAQ: Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat section I found no reference to the feat. Has this actually been answered in the FAQ? If it has, could someone point out where?

*********

I found this post because I, like many others, read the description of Boar Style and my first reaction was "Wow, that's amazing!" immediately followed by "there's no way that's how it's supposed to work..."

I have read many of the suggestions given by other posters but I can't help but want an official ruling. Meaning no disrespect, if I just wanted a collaborative interpretation I would talk to my own GM. I want to know if the developers really did intend to give a 3rd level character access to 2d6 points of bleed damage because, all interpretations aside, that is what this feat appears to do as written.