Monk Weapons List


Rules Questions


4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

I was always assumed that Monks were proficient in all "Monk" weapons, but several posters have indicated that this seems not to be the case. Are they proficient with all such weapons or not? If not, have there been any updates to the Monk's weapons list that was published in the Core Rules?

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I have always understood the RAI to be that they are proficient. Although at the moment this is not supported by the RAW.

A simple addition to the Monk section of the CRB would fix this.


What specific monk weapons are being questioned here? All the ones in the APG were specifically marked as monks being proficient with them and all of the core rulebook monk weapons have are on the monk's proficiency list as well. I don't have ultimate combat yet so I can't comment on those.


Monk weapons are simply those that can be used as part of a flurry of blows attack. This does not always mean that a monk is automatically proficient in the use of such items; check a monk weapon's description to see if a monk character is automatically trained in its use.

I don't know of any update to the core list; just check the descriptions of monk weapons on a case-by-case basis.

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Abraham spalding wrote:
What specific monk weapons are being questioned here? All the ones in the APG were specifically marked as monks being proficient with them and all of the core rulebook monk weapons have are on the monk's proficiency list as well. I don't have ultimate combat yet so I can't comment on those.

I don't have access to it either. But I am under the impression from other threads that monk weapons in UC are without any such text.


From the first UC preview blog, here is the Monk weapon group:

Monk: bo staff**, brass knuckles**, butterfly sword**, cestus*, dan bong**, double chained kama**, double chicken saber**, emei piercer**, fighting fan**, jutte**, kama, kusarigama**, kyoketsu shoge**, lungshuan tamo**, monk's spade**, nine-ring broadsword**, nine-section whip**, nunchaku, quarterstaff, rope dart**, sai, sansetsukon**, seven-branched sword**, shang gou**, shuriken, siangham, tiger fork**, tonfa**, tri-point double-edged sword**, unarmed strike, urumi**, wushu dart**

In case you do not go and read the blog entry, the weapons with the ** are all new weapons in UC. Also, I do not have a copy of Ultimate Combat yet, so I cannot tell you if the Monk is automatically proficient with all of these or not.

(edited while Mage Evolving was posting)

Also, at least the way it is worded in the CRB, the weapons with the special descriptor of "monk" on the weapons tables are those that can be used with flurry of blows and not to simply mean the monk is proficient with it. There are three weapons in the APG with the "monk" special descriptor and the text of each of those three says a monk is proficient with them. So yes, while the books do not anywhere that I know of specifically say that the "monk" special descriptor means both a monk is proficient with it and that it can be used with flurry of blows, I think it is safe to say that is really what it means by the way it is used.


I don't have a copy of UC but I just did a once over of the APG and core book. Every weapon up to now that he can flurry with he is proficient with. I've no reason to doubt that these new weapons would be any different.

Silver Crusade

Mage Evolving wrote:

I don't have a copy of UC but I just did a once over of the APG and core book. Every weapon up to now that he can flurry with he is proficient with. I've no reason to doubt that these new weapons would be any different.

In fact, that is an issue that I have written about because I have seen the UC and the monk weapons do NOT indicate proficiency. Not a peep from the powers that be whether this is as intended or an oversight.


I would say that it's intended that monks are not automatically proficient with all Monk weapons. Fighters aren't proficient with all Exotic weapons, monks shouldn't necessarily gain proficiency with a ton of exotic weapons either, especially since some of them are better than their closest martial counterparts.

From a RAW point of view, just because the weapons in the APG specifically stated that monks were proficient with them, doesn't mean that they're proficient with all other weapons with the Monk property. Because there is no specific rule stating that monks are automatically proficient in all Monk weapons, it's on a case-by-case basis. If none of the UC weapons say monks are proficient, then they're not. Simple enough.


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Proficiency with all monk weapons does feel like something that some Monk Archetypes should get, mainly thinking of the Weapon Adept here.

All simple and martial monk weapons should be auto proficiencies for all monk and a monk bonus feat that gives proficiency for the exotic ones, but all of them for a single feat not 1 per feat.


Mynameisjake wrote:
I was always assumed that Monks were proficient in all "Monk" weapons, but several posters have indicated that this seems not to be the case. Are they proficient with all such weapons or not? If not, have there been any updates to the Monk's weapons list that was published in the Core Rules?

With the caveat that I don't have access to UC yet, so I can't speak to those monk weapons.

Every other weapon with the monk descriptor has, in the text of the weapon description, a note that monks have proficiency with the weapon.


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For what it matters, the Unarmed Fighter archetype for fighters is proficient with all monk weapons, making an explicit inclusion of Exotic Monk Weapons.

I'd say thats pretty clear evidence that not all monk weapons are equal as far as proficiency is concerned; unless the description of a particular weapon notes monks can use it (and none that I recall in UC do), they need to spend a feat.


http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9okw

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The FAQ Will linked says:

Quote:

Monk Weapons: If a weapon is specified as a monk weapon, does that mean that monks are automatically proficient with that weapon?

No. It means that they can use this weapon while using flurry of blows. It does not mean that it is added to the list of weapons that a monk is proficient with, unless the weapon description says otherwise.


This seems to indicate that the powers that be, answered this question in the negative. HOWEVER, Based on Original Intent, it actually looks as though, ALL Monk Weapons that are capable of being used with a FoB's, they should be proficient with. Why? Because, unlike EVERY other base class in the Core rule book, the Monk is not proficient with a set class of weapons or more, such as simple, or Martial. Instead they have a very specific set of weapons that they are proficient with. EVERY ONE of the weapons that they are proficient with, can be utilized with Flurry of Blows. That being the case, it seems to suggest that IF a weapon can be used with Flurry of Blows, that it belongs to a special 'Monk class' of weapons, and since EVERY Monk class of weapon in the Core book they are proficient with, it seems to indicate that the two ideas (proficient and use with FoB's) are one and the same. I would guess, that the FAQ was written after the fact, by different writers than the ones that wrote the original game, and so in any home game, I would run it that way.


Super thread Necromancy on this one, Unchained Monk is proficient with all monk weapons where as normal monk is not, thus I believe that since an errata has not occurred that I am aware of then it is that way intentionally.


It was never Paizo policy/habit to errata things like this.

I actually think it wasn't intentional. Most of the CRB is copy-pasted from 3.5, which did not have weapon property keywords. In 3.5, every weapon special propery hat to be mention in the weapon description, and thus the concept "weapon with the monk special weapon quality" simply did not exist (t least not in a way that makes it a definitive list). Thus, the only way for Monk's proiciency and Flurry of Blows to do what they're made to do was to list every single qualifying weapon. Paizo copy-pasted the proficiency list, without realization (or without consideration) that they had a prime opportunity to futureproof the Monk's proficiency.

When the first non-CRB monk weapons came along, they had a line stating that Monks were proficient (temple sword and cestus). This is actually a strong indication of intend for monk special property = proficiency for Monks. I think the authors of subsequent monk weapons didn't know/didn't understand that such a line was necessary for every single such weapon.


Sporkus wrote:
Super thread Necromancy on this one, Unchained Monk is proficient with all monk weapons where as normal monk is not, thus I believe that since an errata has not occurred that I am aware of then it is that way intentionally.

Clearly when the PF Unch came out the "new" Unch Monk got a pedantic RAW weapon list upgrade. That doesn't mean it changed the CRB Monk Class.

The Unch Summoner was a clear attempt to create a clearer description with more game balance, clearer eidolon progression, and standardized spell list that could be used by Org Play to Replace the APG Summoner. My sense at the time was Unch Summoner was a replacement whereas Unch Monk was a new option.

Gaining a weapon proficiency is an expensive process at 1 feat per proficiency and there's no way around that other than a spell or very open magical weapon quality that seems misnamed. Armor and Shield proficiency is treated as a category where many specific types are gained. So in many ways weapon proficiency has been a sacred cow of sorts.

While a few areas with minor changes did get an upgrade through "stealth errata" (magic item body slots for familiars & animal companions for example), the CRB Monk starting proficiency list did not.

I think most savvy GMs consider making the change to give CRB Monk class starting weapon proficiency with all or most monk weapons in their home game.


Azothath wrote:

...

Gaining a weapon proficiency is an expensive process at 1 feat per proficiency and there's no way around that other than a few traits, spell or very open magical weapon quality that seems misnamed. Armor and Shield proficiency is treated as a category where many specific types are gained. So in many ways weapon proficiency has been a sacred cow of sorts.
...

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