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I think this is a cool addition, alot like the Dragon Age computer game. I don't know if (1) I'll get a chance to GM this soon or (2) How many of the player's I'd have would go for this option, but I really like it's inclusion as an option and I hope to see more of this kind of thing in the future.
Me too - in fact, the entire Relationship Score thing felt extremely Dragon Age-y to me (and lest I confuse anyone, I love Dragon Age). More of this please!
I would also like to see this in future APs
A big "me too!" here.
I'm really excited about these rules as well, although I do have one concern.
Is the DC meant to be this high? Also, do you have to make that check first before attempting the (much more reasonable) Diplomacy check to secure the relationship, or can you just try the check each level and hope for the best?
Well, perhaps he can ask one of his friends to make the test in his place. You know, like we used to do in High School...
Dear Shalelu,
Do you like me? Please mark yes or no.
Love, Seltyiel
Okay Lem, now let me know what she says...
Creative Director
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I'm really excited about these rules as well, although I do have one concern.
** spoiler omitted **
Well...
Knowing whether or not an NPC is interested in your PC should indeed be tough, but that shouldn't impact your PC trying to woo them. Keep in mind as well that we sort of want an NPC/PC romance to be something worth fighting for, something that's hard to earn, and something that may well take several adventures to establish.
And if you're really desperate, find someone to cast detect thoughts, I guess.
I'm really excited about these rules as well, although I do have one concern.
** spoiler omitted **
Well...
** spoiler omitted **
Will we see more of this mechanic in future APs?
Will we see more of this mechanic in future APs?
Ask again after six months when Paizo will know opinions those who played through the AP.
I think this is a cool addition, alot like the Dragon Age computer game. I don't know if (1) I'll get a chance to GM this soon or (2) How many of the player's I'd have would go for this option, but I really like it's inclusion as an option and I hope to see more of this kind of thing in the future.Me too - in fact, the entire Relationship Score thing felt extremely Dragon Age-y to me (and lest I confuse anyone, I love Dragon Age). More of this please!
After reading about gifts... Do you think like me, that, completly unexpectedly of course, Koya Mvashti will happen to be connoisseur of ales and beers?
I'm really excited about these rules as well, although I do have one concern.
** spoiler omitted **
Perhaps grant them a bonus equal to their relationship score to the NPC to the Sense Motive check?
Perhaps grant them a bonus equal to their relationship score to the NPC to the Sense Motive check?I'm really excited about these rules as well, although I do have one concern.
** spoiler omitted **
IRC the DC of that check is equal to Relationship score required to initiate romance, which means that it would be automatic success when romance becomes possible - which would make the check somwhat redundant. Getting the right moment to move relation into something more romantic is crucial. Too early or too late can spoil everything...
And on completly unrelated note, quote from one of my favorite movies:
- You were through here before!
- How many times?
Depends how much folks get a kick out of the mechanic in Jade Regent. Which is only just now coming out. In several months, we'll have a better idea if folks love it or hate it overall.Will we see more of this mechanic in future APs?
I have made this mechanic before, but only worked about 75%, and it did include psychological syndromes like "nightingale syndrome." You did a better job at the system then me, so good job (not sarcastic).
I think mine failed due to me trying to cover the numerous complexities and I used Charisma, 2ed's Comeliness (updated to 3.5), and Wisdom in the interactions.
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After reading about gifts... Do you think like me, that, completly unexpectedly of course, Koya Mvashti will happen to be connoisseur of ales and beers?I think this is a cool addition, alot like the Dragon Age computer game. I don't know if (1) I'll get a chance to GM this soon or (2) How many of the player's I'd have would go for this option, but I really like it's inclusion as an option and I hope to see more of this kind of thing in the future.Me too - in fact, the entire Relationship Score thing felt extremely Dragon Age-y to me (and lest I confuse anyone, I love Dragon Age). More of this please!
"Is it... cloves?"
"IT IS! By the Stone, you're a woman after my own heart!"
If we are using movie quotes the perfect paraphrase of one for Ameiko would be..
"Off all the bars, in all the towns, in all the world I had to walk into hers"
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Depends how much folks get a kick out of the mechanic in Jade Regent. Which is only just now coming out. In several months, we'll have a better idea if folks love it or hate it overall.Will we see more of this mechanic in future APs?
This system, the caravan system, the ones in kingmaker. Those are the type of grey area's that make for interesting little sub systems I find very neat and would like to see more of them. Like the one for pirate building in the next AP. So just adding my vote now for seeing this used again in the future.
As for the topic of how hard it is to tell if a NPC likes you, just do what I do. Charm them and if they make there save kill them. Then you have no doubts. :)
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I also liked the romance system, and I'd very much enjoy seeing it again.
Specifically, I like the need to nuture the romance over a long period (i.e., a high Relationship score, with in-game justification in the NPC's background) and the chance for romance to spring from conflict a la Han Solo/Princess Leia.
Re. knowing when the NPC is interested:
Next time around, please suggest some alternative ways to initiate a romance with an NPC without super-high Sense Motive. It makes sense that PC insight should greatly help romantic timing, but it'd be nice if even the slightly clueless had a chance at love. Would the NPC ever initiate the romance?
Also, what happens to the NPC's Relationship score if the PC acts too soon?
How would you model a relationship with someone like Isabella from Dragon Age II? I suspect that the lusty, commitment-phobic CG or CN NPC might be an attractive romance option to some players.
The romance system could certainly be tagged onto Skull and Bones..what self respecting Swashbuckler doesn't have a love interest.
It certainly didn't do Messers Flynn,Power and Fairbanks any harm
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As always, RPing should set the bar. In my game, relationships are not only governed by mechanics but RP. If a player really puts in the time to RP their aspirations, or if a player acts particularly heroic or charming, then romance could be in the air.
It would be fun to have an NPC develop the crush, especially if the PC was oblivious. The player might realize, but the character remains in the dark.
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Just as in real life, not every character can be equally good at starting romances. Some are better at it than others, for a variety of reasons including but not limited to higher Charisma scores, better skills, or just plain old luck.
That makes sense: It would be silly if the Chr 6 dwarf ranger would be as attractive a romantic partner as a Chr 17+ half-elf bard. And an ability to "read' people would be very helpful in knowing when to approach someone romantically.
But if a mandatory Sense Motive check is above 20, it makes it really, really hard--or impossible--for many characters ever to make the check. It seems as if it would limit romance only to the characters who specialize in Sense Motive (or who use a magical workaround). Should those high-skill characters have an advantage? Certainly--it's plausible, and it rewards them for their abilities. That's only fair. But an absolute bar to non-specialists in Sense Motive?
Personally, I'll probably house-rule by lowering the Sense Motive DC to 20 or the NPC's Bluff check (for an NPC attempting to hide true feelings). I'll also let the PC attempt to start a romance without making a Sense Motive check at all. But if they act too early, the NPC's Romance score gets increased by 2, and the PC gets to hear the "You're a really good friend" speech.
I'll be interested in seeing what people playing through the AP say about how the original rules work in practice.
I think I'll use Koya Mvashti as a matchmaker for those PC that fail their checks, probably in the form of a harrow reading... but only if they have bothered to befriend her.
I think I'll use Koya Mvashti as a matchmaker for those PC that fail their checks, probably in the form of a harrow reading... but only if they have bothered to befriend her.
Ooh. This is good. I like this. Provided my players don't try and throw me a curve by trying to play matchmaker themselves, and hooking the NPCs up, I think I'll go with this too.
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But if a mandatory Sense Motive check is above 20, it makes it really, really hard--or impossible--for many characters ever to make the check. It seems as if it would limit romance only to the characters who specialize in Sense Motive (or who use a magical workaround). Should those high-skill characters have an advantage? Certainly--it's plausible, and it rewards them for their abilities. That's only fair. But an absolute bar to non-specialists in Sense Motive?
House ruling the Sense Motive check to something lower is an option... but also, keep in mind a few things:
1) The Player's Guide specifically talks about how Sense Motive is handy in determining if an NPC is interested in your character, and the players will read that. A player who wants to romance an NPC and wants to know when an NPC is interested in their character, as a result, should make sure he or she has a good Sense Motive check. Either by having a good Wisdom, lots of ranks, or probably both.
2) Romances should last the entire AP, and often won't even BEGIN until a few adventure in. Plenty of chances to make Sense Motive checks, and plenty of opportunities to increase your Sense Motive skill.
3) Knowing if someone's interested in you by making a Sense Motive check doesn't grant you bonuses on romancing that NPC. Nor does not knowing make you not able to romance an NPC. If people in the real world only ever pursued possible romances with others whom they know for a fact are interested in them... well... we'd have a lot fewer relationships in the world.
4) Other people in the party can make Sense Motive checks. As can NPC allies. So even if a specific character keeps failing their Sense Motive checks, they can ask friends, "Do you think Ameiko likes me?" and that friend can then make a check for the oblivious PC.
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Good points about the check
Thanks for the clarifications! Your comment 3) seems to rule out my biggest concern. I had mistakenly interpreted the romance rules as stating that the PC must make the check to start the romance. But if PCs can start a romance even if they don't know the NPC feels the same way, high Sense Motive DCs are fine.
A really high, non-disclosed DC could force a player to act without being able to calculate a PC's chance of success. Expecially in romance, the resulting anxiety seems very realistic, as do desperate attempts to get a friend's advice.
Love the romances mechanic. Love the caravan rules even more.
These little subsystems used in the APs are a big part of what I look forward to in an AP. What will Paizo introduce this time? The fact that most of them are easy to integrate into an ongoing campaign is a fantastic bonus.
Keep 'em coming!
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Love the romances mechanic. Love the caravan rules even more.
These little subsystems used in the APs are a big part of what I look forward to in an AP. What will Paizo introduce this time? The fact that most of them are easy to integrate into an ongoing campaign is a fantastic bonus.
Keep 'em coming!
Pretty much exactly this. We just need a hardback compilation of all of those rules subsystems sometime, as a de facto GMG 2.
Agreed! I'd pre-order it today if I could.
pretty brave that part with konya. and a bunch of 15yo wet behind the ears kiddos dating someone old enough to be their grandmother.... and may even have functioned as a unoffical one.
Or for even more weird fun. be a younger brother of ameiko, then date her. "Oh ofcourse im CN with Socothbenoth as my patron, why?" ;)