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According to the rules, the Evil Eye Hex does NOT have the "a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for another 24 hours" modifier.
And it doesn't say in the Hex rules anywhere that you can't stack the same hex on a creature.
So, technically, that means that a Witch can cast Evil Eye on a critter multiple times and then have it stack or have a different application each time?
For example, it could be -2 on saving throws the first time, then -2 on attacks the second time, -2 on AC the third, etc.
And of course use Cackle to keep it going.
Is anyone doing this?
According to the rules, the Evil Eye Hex does NOT have the "a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for another 24 hours" modifier.
And it doesn't say in the Hex rules anywhere that you can't stack the same hex on a creature.
So, technically, that means that a Witch can cast Evil Eye on a critter multiple times and then have it stack or have a different application each time?
For example, it could be -2 on saving throws the first time, then -2 on attacks the second time, -2 on AC the third, etc.
And of course use Cackle to keep it going.
Is anyone doing this?
If I don't see any use in using a spell during a point in combat I will usually throw out and evil eye or fortune (Yes is can be used to affect multiple aspects i.e. AC/Saves). In fact I spend most of my rounds using hexes as opposed to spells you simply can't go wrong with evil eye as there is nothing the enemy can do to completely negate it (unless they save and somehow stop you from cackleing). Easilly the best hex imo
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According to the rules, the Evil Eye Hex does NOT have the "a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for another 24 hours" modifier.
And it doesn't say in the Hex rules anywhere that you can't stack the same hex on a creature.
So, technically, that means that a Witch can cast Evil Eye on a critter multiple times and then have it stack or have a different application each time?
For example, it could be -2 on saving throws the first time, then -2 on attacks the second time, -2 on AC the third, etc.
And of course use Cackle to keep it going.
Is anyone doing this?
You can absolutely do this. Bonuses and penalties from the same source don't stack, so you couldn't stack up a -2x penalty to saves by evil eyeing x times, but you could stack up -2 to lots of different things.
And yes, cackle keeps it all going, which is especially painful with Evil Eye since it has a duration of 1 round even on a successful save, so as long as you have a free move action every round and they stay in range of the cackle, you can keep it up indefinitely with no save from them. It's one of the things which makes the witch awesome.
According to the rules, the Evil Eye Hex does NOT have the "a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for another 24 hours" modifier.
And it doesn't say in the Hex rules anywhere that you can't stack the same hex on a creature.
So, technically, that means that a Witch can cast Evil Eye on a critter multiple times and then have it stack or have a different application each time?
For example, it could be -2 on saving throws the first time, then -2 on attacks the second time, -2 on AC the third, etc.
And of course use Cackle to keep it going.
Is anyone doing this?
I had a witch do that to me as a GM. It is legal though. Wait until level 8, and it becomes a -4 penalty.
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yep, it's glorious. I'll sometimes use evil eye to soften an enemy saving throw so I can lock a misfortune on him, then after the misfortune I go back to the evil eye targeting attack rolls.
then I cackle (literally) as every time it attacks it must roll twice at -4 and take the worse result. Relax and watch the party rip it to shreds. Who needs spells?
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According to the rules, the Evil Eye Hex does NOT have the "a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for another 24 hours" modifier.
And it doesn't say in the Hex rules anywhere that you can't stack the same hex on a creature.
So, technically, that means that a Witch can cast Evil Eye on a critter multiple times and then have it stack or have a different application each time?
For example, it could be -2 on saving throws the first time, then -2 on attacks the second time, -2 on AC the third, etc.
And of course use Cackle to keep it going.
Is anyone doing this?
You can absolutely do this. Bonuses and penalties from the same source don't stack, so you couldn't stack up a -2x penalty to saves by evil eyeing x times, but you could stack up -2 to lots of different things.
And yes, cackle keeps it all going, which is especially painful with Evil Eye since it has a duration of 1 round even on a successful save, so as long as you have a free move action every round and they stay in range of the cackle, you can keep it up indefinitely with no save from them. It's one of the things which makes the witch awesome.
I hate BBEG that are immune to it tho.. :(
Stupid undead.
I hate BBEG that are immune to it tho.. :(
Stupid undead.
Kindly ask one of your companions to play an undead scourge, You'll stop meeting them.
Well against those you can at least still use Misfortune.
According to the rules, the Evil Eye Hex does NOT have the "a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for another 24 hours" modifier.
And it doesn't say in the Hex rules anywhere that you can't stack the same hex on a creature.
So, technically, that means that a Witch can cast Evil Eye on a critter multiple times and then have it stack or have a different application each time?
For example, it could be -2 on saving throws the first time, then -2 on attacks the second time, -2 on AC the third, etc.
And of course use Cackle to keep it going.
Is anyone doing this?
I'm not quite sure that is legal, for the same reason they don't stack, in a strict reading of the stacking rules the new Evil Eye would over write the previous one. Which would mean only the most recent penalty would be active.
You wouldn't be able to stack differing penalties because as soon as the new Evil Eye (the source of the penalty) takes effect, the old penalty gets replaced with the new penalty. Same "spell", just different option on the "final result." It wouldn't have to be spelled out in the hex wording as it is already explained in the core rule book.
Isn't it the same type of modifiers from the same source can't be stacked? Since they are different mods, even from the same source, they should be able to stack.
There has to be some kind of errata on this somewhere.... i just had to re-read the srd really quick, and hopefully there will be some errata. I would really like to play it with super evil eye de-buffing but my DM and other Pc's would totally call OP without something backing me up.
I hate BBEG that are immune to it tho.. :(
Stupid undead.
I assume that means evil eye is an enchantment/charm effect, and
Well against those you can at least still use Misfortune.
that means misfortune is not.
Bur where does it say so? I didn't find any reference.
I hate BBEG that are immune to it tho.. :(
Stupid undead.I assume that means evil eye is an enchantment/charm effect, and
Well against those you can at least still use Misfortune.that means misfortune is not.
Bur where does it say so? I didn't find any reference.
Since nothing is automatically mind affecting you would actually need a source to state or at least infer that it is.
Evil Eye is specifically called out as mind affecting so it is.
Misfortune is not called out or implied that it is, so it is not.
My witch rarely gets to cast spells either. Ill cast long durations at the beginning of the day, and nearly always have quite few spells left at the end of the day due to hexing. Just reached 5th so am throwing stinking cloud into the mix too
The -4 penalty at level 8 plus three-fold-form for uber Int boost, may even make phantasmal killer a viable spell
Evil Eye is specifically called out as mind affecting so it is.Misfortune is not called out or implied that it is, so it is not.
Ah yes, I took a closer look.. now I see it, too. rtfm, I guess...
I'd agree that the spell rules do imply that different Evil Eye modifiers shouldn't stack, but here's a LINK to a Developer claiming it should work.
Since the official rule isn't 100% clear, I'd go with that.
Yes. But those are spell rules. Supernatural abilities are completely different (No AoO, No Spell Resistance, etc.). I am more inclined to rule that we can in no way treat a supernatural ability like a spell, otherwise it would be a Spell-Like Ability.
Thanks for the reference to SKR. That helps put some umph behind stacking.
Supernatural abilities are spell like effects, they just are easier to get off on a target (no AoO or SR as you mentioned). Just because something says SU doesn't exempt it from the stacking rules. Using your reasoning a creature that casts Bulls Strength as an SU ability to gain a bump to STR could stack that stat. Do you see the flaw in your arguement now? Spells are the most common way to add stats, but abilities that give bonuses are still covered under the stacking rules regardless of SP or SU (or even EX if one existed). "It works because it is SU" is plain and simple wishful thinking unfortunately, the rules don't back that.
As for the post I don't see him saying they stack, I see him saying they can spend several rounds adding penalties, a witch could spend one round to debuff saves and then realize it is a heavy hitter and debuff attack rolls the next. The party wizard was planning on casting a SoS spell the third round so the witch went back to debuffing saves again. He said the witch could spend their actions debuffing the target, he didn't mention all the debuffs actually accumulating anywhere in there that I can see.
What he said and you are saying are two different things still. There are many things in the game that can be repeated round after round that don't give you added benefits for doing so. I'm okay with it if it is meant to stack, but RAW doesn't allow for it to do so via stacking rules, and so errata would be nice if in fact it is supposed to work that way.
I'd agree that the spell rules do imply that different Evil Eye modifiers shouldn't stack, but here's a LINK to a Developer claiming it should work.
Since the official rule isn't 100% clear, I'd go with that.
Yes. But those are spell rules. Supernatural abilities are completely different (No AoO, No Spell Resistance, etc.). I am more inclined to rule that we can in no way treat a supernatural ability like a spell, otherwise it would be a Spell-Like Ability.
Thanks for the reference to SKR. That helps put some umph behind stacking.
Supernatural abilities are spell like effects, they just are easier to get off on a target (no AoO or SR as you mentioned). Just because something says SU doesn't exempt it from the stacking rules. Using your reasoning a creature that casts Bulls Strength as an SU ability to gain a bump to STR could stack that stat. Do you see the flaw in your arguement now? Spells are the most common way to add stats, but abilities that give bonuses are still covered under the stacking rules regardless of SP or SU (or even EX if one existed). "It works because it is SU" is plain and simple wishful thinking unfortunately, the rules don't back that.
As for the post I don't see him saying they stack, I see him saying they can spend several rounds adding penalties, a witch could spend one round to debuff saves and then realize it is a heavy hitter and debuff attack rolls the next. The party wizard was planning on casting a SoS spell the third round so the witch went back to debuffing saves again. He said the witch could spend their actions debuffing the target, he didn't mention all the debuffs actually accumulating anywhere in there that I can see.
What he said and you are saying are two different things still. There are many things in the game that can be repeated round after round...
He says you can spend rounds adding penalties. Adding is cumulative. This implies that evil eye penalties to different things stack with other evil eye penalties, just not with penalties to the same thing.
Also, he is answering "yes" to a specific question:
Quote="Sean C. MacDonald (OP)"]So can a creature be affected by Evil Eye multiple times but just by a different effect each time? -2 to AC this round, -2 to saves next round, -2 to skill checks the round after that... until you run out?
You couldn't run out if it was replacing the penalty each round. The only way to "run out" of things to penalize is if everything is penalized.
I'd agree that the spell rules do imply that different Evil Eye modifiers shouldn't stack, but here's a LINK to a Developer claiming it should work.
Since the official rule isn't 100% clear, I'd go with that.
Yes. But those are spell rules. Supernatural abilities are completely different (No AoO, No Spell Resistance, etc.). I am more inclined to rule that we can in no way treat a supernatural ability like a spell, otherwise it would be a Spell-Like Ability.
Thanks for the reference to SKR. That helps put some umph behind stacking.
Supernatural abilities are spell like effects, they just are easier to get off on a target (no AoO or SR as you mentioned). Just because something says SU doesn't exempt it from the stacking rules. Using your reasoning a creature that casts Bulls Strength as an SU ability to gain a bump to STR could stack that stat. Do you see the flaw in your arguement now? Spells are the most common way to add stats, but abilities that give bonuses are still covered under the stacking rules regardless of SP or SU (or even EX if one existed). "It works because it is SU" is plain and simple wishful thinking unfortunately, the rules don't back that.
As for the post I don't see him saying they stack, I see him saying they can spend several rounds adding penalties, a witch could spend one round to debuff saves and then realize it is a heavy hitter and debuff attack rolls the next. The party wizard was planning on casting a SoS spell the third round so the witch went back to debuffing saves again. He said the witch could spend their actions debuffing the target, he didn't mention all the debuffs actually accumulating anywhere in there that I can see.
What he said and you are saying are two different things still. There are many things in the game that can be repeated round after round...
As long as you debuff a different thing with each use they do stack.
Example:
Round 1. Debuff saves and the target fails the save. (-x to save throws)
Round 2. Debuff attack rolls and the target succeeds the save (-x to save throws and attack rolls)
Round 3. Debuff AC and the target fails the save (-x to save throws and AC)
Round 4. Debuff attack rolls again (-x to saves, AC and attack rolls).
This is because you are not stacking the effects on the same thing -- it would be like saying that because a character cast bestow curse on another character and gave them a penalty on their Intelligence you can't cast bestow curse on the same target affecting strength.
The same spell different effects wording is referring to doing something like casting beast shape 2 to become a big cat and then casting it to become a bear -- being a bear renders being a big cat out by default but if something happens to the spell producing the bear form the cat form is still there underneath.
Thanks again Sean for cleaning things up!
As a side note. If you evil eye on your turn, and they make the save, it expires at the beginning of your next turn before you can cackle. As such, you should always cackle AFTER you evil eye.
I have a question about this. It seems to be possible, but this thread seems to imply that, so I just want to be sure. Let's say this round actions:
1) Evil Eye, -2 saves to BBEG.
[BBEG gets -2 saves]
2) Evil Eye, -2 AC, cackle.
[BBEG gets -2 saves and AC]
3) Evil Eye, -2 to hit, cackle.
[BBEG gets -2 saves, AC, to hit?]
And so on cackling like Evils Presley (wordplay :D)...
I mean, is this legal?
In other words, if I cackle Evil Eye, adding multiple effects each round, can I mantain all the effects with a single cackling? Rules seem to consent this. And moreover, as now as I'm reading, it seems that the wording of cackle imply that I need only to cackle once each round to mantain ALL active hexes in 30 feet range... Is that correct? That seems uber.
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Right (but all hexes mentioned in Cackle, not all witch hexes). Even those cast by other witches.
Except that, in the first round, you need to cackle as your move action after using your standard for evil eye.
Note that the "cackle every round" is only necessary if they succeed at their saves against your evil eye.
You can also cackle twice in a round (standard used as a move + move) to free your following full round.
My GM plays it you don't know if a target saves against an SU ability. So, my witch cackles religiously when he does.
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My GM plays it you don't know if a target saves against an SU ability. So, my witch cackles religiously when he does.
If so, you should check with your GM that the target does not know a SU ability was used against him even if he saved. Which would be an interesting trade.
Otherwise, it is really a big nerf to the Witch IMO.
If you are outdoors, ride a mount. Then you don't lose mobility since you can Cackle while your mount moves.
Right (but all hexes mentioned in Cackle, not all witch hexes). Even those cast by other witches.
Obviously I'd mean the cackle-able hexes. But I'm not agree that I effect even other witches' hexes:
"A witch can cackle madly as a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round."Except that, in the first round, you need to cackle as your move action after using your standard for evil eye.
That's because the round end at the start of my next turn?
Note that the "cackle every round" is only necessary if they succeed at their saves against your evil eye.
Yup, but can you point me in the rules where is stated that I know if a saves is successful or not? I don't remember the point, and it may come in handy with my master. I've tried to search in the spells section, but didn't found.
You can also cackle twice in a round (standard used as a move + move) to free your following full round.
Never noticed that. Thanks for the tip. :)
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Right (but all hexes mentioned in Cackle, not all witch hexes). Even those cast by other witches.Obviously I'd mean the cackle-able hexes. But I'm not agree that I effect even other witches' hexes:
"A witch can cackle madly as a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round."
You are right. My bad.
Except that, in the first round, you need to cackle as your move action after using your standard for evil eye.That's because the round end at the start of my next turn?
Yes
Note that the "cackle every round" is only necessary if they succeed at their saves against your evil eye.Yup, but can you point me in the rules where is stated that I know if a saves is successful or not? I don't remember the point, and it may come in handy with my master. I've tried to search in the spells section, but didn't found.
Because it is in the Magic section, under Saving Throw : "Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells."
Of course, I also use the rule saying that Supernatural abilities are similar to Spell-like abilities (and thus spells) unless noted otherwise.
You can also cackle twice in a round (standard used as a move + move) to free your following full round.Never noticed that. Thanks for the tip. :)
You're welcome. I just noticed it too.