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This isn't the usual 'Summoner are imba' thread. But the amount of AC an eidolon can reach is somewhat frightening.
It begins pretty harmless. A first level eidolon will have an AC between 15 and 17. This already assumes the Improved Natural Armor Evolution but no additional increases to dexterity or feats. With Mage Armor and Shield, this AC can be increased by eight, but only for a short time.
At fifth level, it becomes more serious. Mage Armor can now be active most of the time, the eidolon's dexterity has been increased twice and it can take the Improved Natural Armor evolution twice. I'll only take a look at the biped since it's the eidolon with the lowest AC.
10 (base) +10 (natural armor) + 4 (mage armor) +2 (dexterity)=26
With shield, it can be increased to 30. Other classes can achieve a comparable AC at this level, but they have to spend a large amount of their resources to do so. All it costs for the summoner and his eidolon are two evolution points and a few first level spells.
At 20th level, a huge eidolon can have an AC of
10 + 38 (natural armor including barkskin) + 8 (bracers of armor) + 5 (ring of deflection +5) +3 (dexterity) -2 (size)=62
According to the Book of the Damned 2, a CR 25 opponent should have an attack value around +36. Again, the eidolon still remains a strong combatant (it has a strength of 40, after all), unlike users of Combat Expertise and Tower Shield. The Touch AC of the eidolon will be rather horrible, but opponents that target touch AC aren't that common. If you don't want to use bracers, the AC is 4 less with Mage Armor, still too high for the Tarrasque to hit on anything that isn't a natural 20.
I'm not sure what's the best way to address it (and I don't see tailoring opponents that would kill the rest of the party easily just to be a threat to the eidolon as a viable solution), but it is kind of a problem, especially with premade adventures that don't take eidolons into account.
I played a summoner in Kingmaker and by the end the Eidolon's AC was often well over 40. Magearmor was on most of the time, Barkskin when I expected battle and there were times I threw Shield in there as well.
Even with high AC the Eidolon died often. Now I admit I would always send him in to act as meatshield, and the DM also pulled no punches. Since my group didn't have much healing (I used UMD to act as the main healer), I was always hesitant to donate too many of my hp to the eidolon since to do otherwise would be to risk a tpk. In a group with good healing the objective is to take the summmoner or the Eidolon with magic. One of them is probably going to have crappy saves.
If the eidolon is spending all its evos on AC increasing things rather than more and bigger attacks, it's just like a fighter that does the same thing (spends all his assets increasing AC). Keep it busy with mooks fighting defensively, since they need a 20 anyway, while the heavy hitters hit the squishies. When the summoner goes down, so does the eidolon.
from what i understand.. its a monster so u dont add 10 to your ac its not a character.. plus when u summon a dog.. they have and ac of like 6 which would be similar to your eidolon.. thats how im playing mine at least.. or else they would be way overpowering...
from what i understand.. its a monster so u dont add 10 to your ac its not a character.. plus when u summon a dog.. they have and ac of like 6 which would be similar to your eidolon.. thats how im playing mine at least.. or else they would be way overpowering...
No. Everyone gets a Base 10 AC.
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If the eidolon is spending all its evos on AC increasing things rather than more and bigger attacks, it's just like a fighter that does the same thing (spends all his assets increasing AC). Keep it busy with mooks fighting defensively, since they need a 20 anyway, while the heavy hitters hit the squishies. When the summoner goes down, so does the eidolon.
I would not call 5 out of at least 26 evolution points 'all'.
every character gets plus 10 ac.. eidolon isnt a character.. when u summon a monster with summon monster one.. it doesnt have a ac of 16 it is usually 6 or something like that.
Armor Bonus: The number noted here is the eidolon’s base total armor bonus. This bonus may be split between an armor bonus and a natural armor bonus, as decided by the summoner. This number is modified by the eidolon’s base form and some options available through its evolution pool. An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner’s connection to the eidolon.
it says its modified by base for evolutions and the ac bonus they give you no where does it say add 10 to that.. i think your classifing and eidolon as a character.. they are basically just another summoned creature.. if i used summon monster 1 my dog wouldnt have a ac of 16 it would be 6.. you guys are just reading the rules the way you want too.. and overpowering it...
and u also know that they share spell slots.. so if eidolon is useing bracers the summoner cant. same with rings.. ect....
Can you give a breakdown of where the +38 natural armor comes from?
@Jakesand2000: I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong. Every creature (not just character) has 10 base AC, which is then adjusted by size, dexterity, etc. Your summoned dog also has 10+ AC.
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Can you give a breakdown of where the +38 natural armor comes from?
+16 Every 20th level eidolon gets that bonus
+2 base form+10 (Improved Natural Armor Evolution x5)
+5 Huge Evolution
+5 Barkskin
With feats like Improved Natural Armor, even higher values are possible, but doing so takes more resources than the 5 evolution points.
The huge evolution is mostly done for the damage increase since the net gain in AC is only +1 due to the reduction to dexterity and the size penalty to AC.
Armor Bonus: The number noted here is the eidolon’s base total armor bonus. This bonus may be split between an armor bonus and a natural armor bonus, as decided by the summoner. This number is modified by the eidolon’s base form and some options available through its evolution pool. An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner’s connection to the eidolon.
it says its modified by base for evolutions and the ac bonus they give you no where does it say add 10 to that.. i think your classifing and eidolon as a character.. they are basically just another summoned creature.. if i used summon monster 1 my dog wouldnt have a ac of 16 it would be 6.. you guys are just reading the rules the way you want too.. and overpowering it...
This is just wrong, all creatures have a 10+
All creatures in the game have an Armor Class. This score represents how hard it is to hit a creature in combat. As with other scores, higher is better. This is the target number enemies need to hit you. Your basic AC is 10 + Dex modifier + armor bonus + shield bonus + spells or magic items that grant an AC bonus.
every character gets plus 10 ac.. eidolon isnt a character.. when u summon a monster with summon monster one.. it doesnt have a ac of 16 it is usually 6 or something like that.
This is incorrect.
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and u also know that they share spell slots.. so if eidolon is useing bracers the summoner cant. same with rings.. ect....
What bracers would the summoner want to wear? They can wear mithral breastplate without many problems.
As for rings, both can wear a ring of protection if the summoner needs one.|
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Armor Bonus: The number noted here is the eidolon’s base total armor bonus. This bonus may be split between an armor bonus and a natural armor bonus, as decided by the summoner. This number is modified by the eidolon’s base form and some options available through its evolution pool. An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner’s connection to the eidolon.
it says its modified by base for evolutions and the ac bonus they give you no where does it say add 10 to that.. i think your classifing and eidolon as a character.. they are basically just another summoned creature.. if i used summon monster 1 my dog wouldnt have a ac of 16 it would be 6.. you guys are just reading the rules the way you want too.. and overpowering it...
sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.
everything gets 10 +dex+size+whatever else applies
Spellcasters certainly have some very good ways to deal with summoners and eidolns, such as maze, but melee combatants stop being much of a threat.
Interesting build, optimized for AC it would be nigh invulnerable to standard melee combatants.
However, my standard rule as a GM is that I will match optimization with optimization, so think hard before you choose to start the arms race.
In general, any static AC is just a target for people to aim at, and I'm certain many of the better optimizers on the board can come up with nasty CR 25 optimized melee characters and monsters that can hit a 62 fairly reliably.
In other words, comparing hyper-optimized builds to standard monsters or builds is not terribly useful, unless you are playing in a campaign set permanently on Easy mode.
And, as you admit, there is touch AC, the bane of all big creatures. It ain't all that uncommon.
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It's not that optimized. I'd say Improved Natural Armor and Huge are no-brainers as far as evolutions go. Just using a shield would increase the AC by 7.
I don't doubt that a sufficiently optimized opponent would have a greater chance of hitting the eidolon. But such an opponent would be even better at hitting other melee characters in the party.
In other words, comparing hyper-optimized builds to standard monsters or builds is not terribly useful, unless you are playing in a campaign set permanently on Easy mode.
I think focusing on the 62 AC at level 20 you're sort of missing the forest for the trees.
The main point, in my opinion, is that it's typically pretty easy for the Eidolon to have a pretty high AC for its level without giving up much offense. I sort of feel like the Eidolon was balanced as though it wouldn't typically have much in the way of AC boosting spells, where in practice the Eidolon will typically have these spells.
The one in a game I'm running currently has Mage Armor 24/7 and Shield any time the party expects a fight (which, the AP I'm running being the AP I'm running and being written the way it is, they usually have a pretty good idea when they're heading into danger.) As a result the Eidolon's walking around at around level 10 with an AC around 40 most of the time without investing much in defense. A fighter who hit the same AC would have to go a lot harder at it.
I'm not saying the Summoner is better than everything anytime or anything silly like that; I do think it's too easy for eidolons to get too high of an AC relative to other characters. For the kind of encounter that can be won by plugging a door with a huge high-AC Eidolon (and there's a lot of them, even if it isn't every fight) it gets pretty boring fast. There isn't much incentive for the rest of the group to even get involved in the fight.
It's not that optimized. I'd say Improved Natural Armor and Huge are no-brainers as far as evolutions go. Just using a shield would increase the AC by 7.
I don't doubt that a sufficiently optimized opponent would have a greater chance of hitting the eidolon. But such an opponent would be even better at hitting other melee characters in the party.
I wouldn't say Improved Natural Armor x 5 is a no-brainer. That's a lot of evolutions to devote to one thing. Lots of opportunity cost. And by optimized, I don't mean that it is the best eidolon overall. It is merely optimized with regard to AC, which is just one important aspect of a character. It can be defeated by equal optimization on attack. It's not an "I win" button.
It can be defeated by equal optimization on attack. It's not an "I win" button.
The problem in terms of balancing encounters is that to hit an eidolon with a moderate (not all-in) investment in AC, say, a quarter of the time on attacks, you've probably built an attacker that hits almost everything else in the party on a 2.
It's hard to make an encounter like that fun for everyone.
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The one in a game I'm running currently has Mage Armor 24/7 and Shield any time the party expects a fight (which, the AP I'm running being the AP I'm running and being written the way it is, they usually have a pretty good idea when they're heading into danger.) As a result the Eidolon's walking around at around level 10 with an AC around 40 most of the time without investing much in defense. A fighter who hit the same AC would have to go a lot harder at it.
Kingmaker?
In other words, comparing hyper-optimized builds to standard monsters or builds is not terribly useful, unless you are playing in a campaign set permanently on Easy mode.
I think focusing on the 62 AC at level 20 you're sort of missing the forest for the trees.
The main point, in my opinion, is that it's typically pretty easy for the Eidolon to have a pretty high AC for its level without giving up much offense. I sort of feel like the Eidolon was balanced as though it wouldn't typically have much in the way of AC boosting spells, where in practice the Eidolon will typically have these spells.
The one in a game I'm running currently has Mage Armor 24/7 and Shield any time the party expects a fight (which, the AP I'm running being the AP I'm running and being written the way it is, they usually have a pretty good idea when they're heading into danger.) As a result the Eidolon's walking around at around level 10 with an AC around 40 most of the time without investing much in defense. A fighter who hit the same AC would have to go a lot harder at it.
I'm not saying the Summoner is better than everything anytime or anything silly like that; I do think it's too easy for eidolons to get too high of an AC relative to other characters. For the kind of encounter that can be won by plugging a door with a huge high-AC Eidolon (and there's a lot of them, even if it isn't every fight) it gets pretty boring fast. There isn't much incentive for the rest of the group to even get involved in the fight.
Valid points. Of course, the Achilles heel of any melee brute Eidolon is the summoner, in theory. Haven't had enough experience yet playing or running summoners to see how this plays out, but I suspect it will vary wildly table to table, as many things do.
And dude, you need to have more combats when you don't expect it. What fun is it being an adventurer if you don't have to fight your way out of ambush after ambush?
Kingmaker?
Legacy of Fire, in this case. Lots of dungeons and the PCs invading or infiltrating indoor locations held by enemies. Not too hard to figure out that when you kick down the door of the bad guy's evil warehouse that combat might happen in the next ten minutes, so let's cast Shield.
Not 100%, but I'd say 90%+ of the time combat breaks out in LoF it's because they PCs are barging into a place they have good reason to think is dangerous.
It can be defeated by equal optimization on attack. It's not an "I win" button.The problem in terms of balancing encounters is that to hit an eidolon with a moderate (not all-in) investment in AC, say, a quarter of the time on attacks, you've probably built an attacker that hits almost everything else in the party on a 2.
It's hard to make an encounter like that fun for everyone.
That's probably a little bit of an exaggeration. I don't think it will have an AC 13 points higher than all other party members. And of course, one of those party members is the summoner, who has chosen to use his buff spells and some of his magic items for his Eidolon rather than himself, reinforcing strength rather than shoring up weakness. A viable strategy, but risky, considering anybody who takes out the summoner doesn't need to worry about the eidolon at all.
[Valid points. Of course, the Achilles heel of any melee brute Eidolon is the summoner, in theory. Haven't had enough experience yet playing or running summoners to see how this plays out, but I suspect it will vary wildly table to table, as many things do.
Yeah, or adventure to adventure.
My experience has been that in a dungeon or other enclosed space, it's pretty easy for a large or huge Eidolon to plug a door while the summoner is down the hall, around the corner, or in a nearby room safe from combat. When the summoner HAS been a valid target he is considerably squishier than the eidolon, although, he's still wearing armor and has mid-grade hit points.
And dude, you need to have more combats when you don't expect it. What fun is it being an adventurer if you don't have to fight your way out of ambush after ambush?
I'm running an AP that almost doesn't have any. There's a couple places one can be shoehorned in, and I have.
Basically I'd be happier if the Eidolon for some reason couldn't have either Shield or Mage Armor, or if it just flat out had around 5 less base AC for whatever reason.
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Wow, I just spent like 30 minutes typing out a whole dissertation with math on possible Eidolon ACs...and after I previewed it all (and forgot to copy the text)...the page refreshed and I lost it all. Awesome.
Anyway, here's the short version.
Yes, an Eidolon can easily get to anywhere between 65 and 69 AC at 20th, depending on size (Small-Huge)
A medium-sized, 20th level fighter can also easily get to 62 AC.
Here's one thing to remember about someone who is running the Meatshield McMeaty profile....you know those little things called saving throws? Yeah, that eidolon...he's probably got a Will of 15, maybe 20 if they have a cloak. A fighter's going to have at least one or two on top of that...probably more.
But that also leaves Summoner McSquishy as easy pickings with very few magic items.. And if you are a semi-intelligent creature and not going after the summoner, you're doing it wrong (and yes, I'm assuming the Summoner doesn't have Resilient Eidolon, which does make a difference at 20th level if the Summoner is killed, I understand - you still take the caster out of the picture that way).
That's probably a little bit of an exaggeration. I don't think it will have an AC 13 points higher than all other party members.
Than all, no. It does have that much more than most of the party in my game, though.
And of course, one of those party members is the summoner, who has chosen to use his buff spells and some of his magic items for his Eidolon rather than himself, reinforcing strength rather than shoring up weakness. A viable strategy, but risky, considering anybody who takes out the summoner doesn't need to worry about the eidolon at all.
In theory I agree with you, but two first level spells is not a big investment.
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Kingmaker?Legacy of Fire, in this case. Lots of dungeons and the PCs invading or infiltrating indoor locations held by enemies. Not too hard to figure out that when you kick down the door of the bad guy's evil warehouse that combat might happen in the next ten minutes, so let's cast Shield.
Not 100%, but I'd say 90%+ of the time combat breaks out in LoF it's because they PCs are barging into a place they have good reason to think is dangerous.
I'm playing Kingmaker right now and the fact that most of the encounters are overland, coupled with the eidolon's rather high perception (thanks to skilled) makes for a rather prepared party.
It's kind of anticlimatic if the party is asked to destroy a horrible menace to the forest and than said menace totally failing to hit the eidolon since it's kind of hard to hit with a +10 when the eidolon's AC is above 30 (beside natural twenties).As for the summoner being vulnerable, invisibility takes good care of that.
But that also leaves Summoner McSquishy as easy pickings with very few magic items.. And if you are a semi-intelligent creature and not going after the summoner, you're doing it wrong
Okay. The eidolon's attacking you. The summoner's nowhere in sight. What now?
I feel like the designers made the same mistake as you did: assuming that the summoner will be visible and also involved in the combat. Once the player realizes this doesn't usually have to be true you've got a problem.
That's probably a little bit of an exaggeration. I don't think it will have an AC 13 points higher than all other party members.
Than all, no. It does have that much more than most of the party in my game, though.
In theory I agree with you, but two first level spells is not a big investment.
And of course, one of those party members is the summoner, who has chosen to use his buff spells and some of his magic items for his Eidolon rather than himself, reinforcing strength rather than shoring up weakness. A viable strategy, but risky, considering anybody who takes out the summoner doesn't need to worry about the eidolon at all.
Depends on what level you're at. To get the 24/7 coverage you are talking about would require 3 spells until 12th level, less only if you have a totally safe place to withdraw and rest in. There was also mention of shield and barkskin spells. It adds up. To the point that the summoner probably can't do the same thing for himself, not to mention those pesky other people in the party who want some buffing love, too. There's always an opportunity cost for every spell cast. You did X, but that means you can't do Y.
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A medium-sized, 20th level fighter can also easily get to 62 AC.I don't doubt that it's possible, but easily? Such an AC takes a serious determination and usually leads to deficits in other areas of importance.
+5 mithral full plate-14
+5 tower shield -9+5 RoP-5
+5 AmtNA-5
+10
7 from dex
=50
+5 sacred
+5 luck
Shield specialization
Dodge
62
2 feats, and "normal" 20th level gear . no real lack of anything
Kingmaker?Legacy of Fire, in this case. Lots of dungeons and the PCs invading or infiltrating indoor locations held by enemies. Not too hard to figure out that when you kick down the door of the bad guy's evil warehouse that combat might happen in the next ten minutes, so let's cast Shield.
Not 100%, but I'd say 90%+ of the time combat breaks out in LoF it's because they PCs are barging into a place they have good reason to think is dangerous.
I'm playing Kingmaker right now and the fact that most of the encounters are overland, coupled with the eidolon's rather high perception (thanks to skilled) makes for a rather prepared party.
It's kind of anticlimatic if the party is asked to destroy a horrible menace to the forest and than said menace totally failing to hit the eidolon since it's kind of hard to hit with a +10 when the eidolon's AC is above 30 (beside natural twenties).As for the summoner being vulnerable, invisibility takes good care of that.
Suggest to your DM that he incorporate more weather and terrain effects if you are never being surprised due to high Perception. Others have had this same issue with optimized rogues or rangers with ungodly Perception. Throw in the occasional encounter in a blinding snowstorm, or a driving rainstorm, or heavy fog, and you'll still achieve surprise. Likewise, if the grass is head-high, or there is dense brush, or hill/rocks/massive trees that provide ample cover. Outdoor encounters are much more spicy and dangeous if you use terrain and weather. And tell him not to forget the scent ability and other senses for your invisible summoner. Not everything hunts by sight.
every character gets plus 10 ac.. eidolon isnt a character.. when u summon a monster with summon monster one.. it doesnt have a ac of 16 it is usually 6 or something like that.
All creatures in the game have an Armor Class. This score represents how hard it is to hit a creature in combat. As with other scores, higher is better. This is the target number enemies need to hit you. Your basic AC is 10 + Dex modifier + armor bonus + shield bonus + spells or magic items that grant an AC bonus.
Emphasis mine... a wolf, or eidelon, is most certainly a creature.
The actual line for the AC of a wolf is:
AC 14, touch 12, flat-footed 12 (+2 Dex, +2 natural)
Note that Touch is only affected by the Dex, so total is 10 base + 2 dex for 12, full AC gets both and the base 10, and flat-footed does not include dex but does include natural... so 12.
Creatures most certainly do get the base 10. Very few creatures have an AC of less than 10 (typically very large creatures might get touch ACs that are lower).
Sean Mahoney
But that also leaves Summoner McSquishy as easy pickings with very few magic items.. And if you are a semi-intelligent creature and not going after the summoner, you're doing it wrongOkay. The eidolon's attacking you. The summoner's nowhere in sight. What now?
I feel like the designers made the same mistake as you did: assuming that the summoner will be visible and also involved in the combat. Once the player realizes this doesn't usually have to be true you've got a problem.
The summoner can't be invisible all the time. So, unless he always knows when he going to enter combat, and there are fewer combats than he has invisibility spells memorized, then he will be detected sometimes. If your party is never surprised or has a 15 minute adventuring day, that's a whole different issue, with lots of problems beyond high AC eidolons and invisible summoners.
+5 mithral full plate-14
+5 tower shield -9
+5 RoP-5
+5 AmtNA-5
+10
7 from dex
=50
+5 sacred
+5 luck
Shield specialization
Dodge
622 feats, and "normal" 20th level gear . no real lack of anything
Good luck getting 7 points from Dex when your Tower Shield has a max Dex allowance of +0.
Better to use a +5 heavy shield, and take the Ironhide and Improved Natural Armor feats a bunch of times (which even humans can do thanks to the APG).
Wow, I just spent like 30 minutes typing out a whole dissertation with math on possible Eidolon ACs...and after I previewed it all (and forgot to copy the text)...the page refreshed and I lost it all. Awesome.
Lazerous Form Recovery has saved me from a million similar headaches. I highly recommend it.
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I would not call abusing the magic item creation rules "normal". And you forgot your +5 insight, competence, morale and profane bonuses to AC.
+5 sacred
+5 luck
was just proving you dont have to go all out to get 62. fell free to change the sacred and luck bonuses to others, insight instead of one would probably be better
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The summoner can't be invisible all the time. So, unless he always knows when he going to enter combat, and there are fewer combats than he has invisibility spells memorized, then he will be detected sometimes. If your party is never surprised or has a 15 minute adventuring day, that's a whole different issue, with lots of problems beyond high AC eidolons and invisible summoners.
In a dungeon, his "invisibility spell" can be as simple as: go down the hall to a previously cleared room and lock all the doors.
I agree that out in the open the eidolon's advantages are much less pronounced. In a dungeon or other enclosed space it often looks pretty silly.
Basically I feel like, even though it isn't always applicable, and even though it will often have risks, "Lock the Eidolon in a room with the monsters, because they're all melee monsters and need to roll a nat 20 to hit it" shouldn't ever be a viable strategy against CR-appropriate enemies. Currently it feels pretty effective to me.
I also don't feel that every adventure should have to include specific summoner counter-tactics to be run as out-of-the-box as it can be for most other classes.
Seems like the issue is that the ability to stack natural armor bonuses has greatly increased in Pathfinder. Compounding this issue is the ability to choose where the Eidelon's AC will go (Armor or Natural Armor bonus), since you are naturally going to take the one that stacks crazy easy.
Going over the sources of the natural armor it looked pretty legit (excepting I think you can only get 4 improved natural armor evolutions not 5, but that is only a 2 point difference and doesn't really change the issue).
My proposed fixes would be either (or both) changing how natural armor stacks or having all armor gained naturally by an eidelon as an armor bonus not natural armor (then you get the natural armor from the base form and evolutions if you want, but can't as easily stack up the AC bonus).
Still... yeah, that is high.
Sean Mahoney
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This isn't the usual 'Summoner are imba' thread. But the amount of AC an eidolon can reach is somewhat frightening.An animal companion is not that far off.
Personally I would have removed the armor evolution, lowered the base natural armor granted and let the eidolons wear armor (well barding).
Then you'd see eidolons with ACs akin to those of animal companions.
Frankly comparisons between eidolons and fighters have always been done poorly and badly. Worse than that its not the best comparison when you have the Druid to compare with the Summoner.
-James
Ankylosaurus (should be the best AC for AC)
9(starting natural armor bonus)+2(7th level advancement)
+12 (20th level Animal Companion)
+5 Barkskin
=+28
Let's say the AC wears a mithral fullplate barding +5, that's an additional +14 on AC for a total AC of 55, including his dexterity bonus. Not bad, but much lower than the eidolon and more on par with the AC a fighter can have at that level. This is however one of the most defensive animal companions while the biped eidolon is the eidolon base form with the worst AC.
was just proving you dont have to go all out to get 62. fell free to change the sacred and luck bonuses to others, insight instead of one would probably be better.
There are no legal items that grant those bonuses. That fighter is houseruled, the eidolon isn't. And what would stop the eidolon from using them as well?
well thank you everyone seem s to agree im wrong.. i like my summoner even more now.. not sure my dm will since he will never hit it now.. i guess i just thought it was to overpowering adding 10 to ac.. considering my summoner isnt that bad either..
To those of you who say summoned is an easy Target, what about the synthesis archetype? You may lose action economy, but you gain rock-solid defense.