Breaking the Gunslinger, the good, the bad, and the ugly.


Gunslinger Discussion: Round 2


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Hello to everyone spending the time to read this, and prepare to be shocked and amazed, your minds will be blown. So sit back and grab some popcorn, we have a lot of ground to cover.

And no math will be brought up for this, if you want the numbers you can do them yourself to either support me or debunk me. They can be turned either way.

Now, to the meat of this. The Gunslinger is not Over Powered in the slightest. Rather, the Gunslinger is about the worst choice in the long run for what the Gunslinger does. I'd say the class is only worth it for the first level dip, if Gunslinger/Fighter was allowed by the rules.

And this is because of flaws in design of the class that conflict with the direction of intended Firearm use, how it breaks, and how it's abuse and the sheer existence of firearms actually benefits other classes more than the Gunslinger.

Now lets tackle the big one right from the get go. Guns are Touch AC attacks in the first range bracket, yet this comes at the cost of not being able to fire the basic firearm more than once. You get one really good attack, that can't miss. Problem is that it is less like Bows and more like Crossbows, which hurts it from the get go in it's intended design.

So with the intent of only having a single attack, and that attack being able to ignore most sources of AC, then the Full BAB of the Gunslinger class is a waste and directly conflicts with what it is meant to do. Taking a 3/4 or even 1/2 progression wouldn't hurt the class in the slightest as it's attack bonus will skyrocket as it gains levels.

Wait, Dead Shot grit you say? No, this Grit is just bad and with design intent on it being good and strong, being the focused Grit for the level 7 Gunslinger it just shoots the entire design of the class in the foot. This is the sole problem I contribute most of the conflicting directions of the class.

Because Dead Shot is beaten by one feat. Quick Draw. By having it take a free action to draw a weapon, in this case a firearm, anyone that uses guns can complete full attack actions by drawing, firing, then dropping the spent guns.

So, compare making touch attacks that spends one shot, but each hit only gets you your base weapon damage added once again compared to the full benefit of full attacks, getting Weapon Enhancements, Bonus Dice, Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, and any other source of bonus damage to each shot all at the cost of just having to spend some extra money. So not only is the Grit behind in this comparison, not only is a Level 7 Key Class Feature falling behind a Level 1 Feat that anyone can use and abuse, but it also costs Grit to use.

And now we get to Grit. I will, in order obtained, put forth the powerful and useful Grit abilities. Deadeye, Quick Clear and Lightning Reload. Yet, Deadeye is expensive in a Full Attack though the option is nice, and Lightning Reload requires a heavy investment but comes with the bonus of not needing Quickdraw to make full attacks eventually as well as boosting up one weapon with magic. Before this, high Magic Enhancements are just too cost prohibitive.

The other Grit, it's just laughable. Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at 15, an AoE Fear at 15, Targeting, Dead Shot. There is little draw to stay in the class, the grit just feels underwhelming or far to restrictive in use. What is good feels as if it comes far too late, as though it would rarely have a character live that long and go that far into the class without anything to hold it together.

That said, I can see a lot of tactical application to Startling Shot. But that's one of the few built right, Firearm Attack, not standard action or any other devouring of the character's action economy. Throwing away the last attack on the end of your attack chain, even if it would hit, could give Flat Footed dependent classes like Rogue a dramatic boost in damage output as well as making many Ref spells an instant Loss for the creature (Assuming I am right that you can't make a Ref Save flat footed). More Grit like it would really strengthen the class and add viable variety.

And by now you should be thinking my ripping of the class seems to be about as conflicted to itself as I claim the class is. So to clarify, as guns are intended to be used, full BAB on the gunslinger is bad. By level 10 they reach "Can't miss" syndrome. But because of unintended abuse of Quickdraw, that full BAB is once again good.

Only real problem now is that the Gunslinger is so feat starved that the feats it would desperately want have feat chains far too long for it. Deftest Shooting Deed is a perfect example, needing both Dodge and Mobility to allow firing and reloading a gun in melee combat. Being as a Gunslinger will have HP and AC comparable to a melee bruiser and that they want to be in that danger range when firing their artillery they need to be able to capitalize on those defensive points. This feat should have been a Grit from the get go.

But add in Deadly Aim, TWF tree, Quick Draw, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload and you'll find yourself really feat starved quite quickly. The problem with feat groupings like this being so powerful with firearms is when your Primary Gun Using Class can't get enough of them, yet other classes can, and the feats are stronger than their class abilities, those classes outstrip what the Gunslinger will do best. I am pretty scared of seeing a TWF path Ranger with a dip in Gunslinger using quickdraw abuse.

Well, let's have fun and count. I'll start off by saying that Gunslinger is your best option for having a gun at level 1. But level 1 isn't the game. To effectively use firearms, you need Gunsmith, Exotic WP:Firearms, and the above feats. If you plan to Deftest Shooting Deed you'll need Amateur Gunslinger (which can give you Deadeye! How sweet!), so that is 3 feats we need to beat above Gunslinger.

By 4th level, the Gunslinger Bonus Feat level, the Gunslinger will have 3 feats. A Fighter has 5 by the same level, so the Gunslinger is barely ahead so long as they are both not human. But, the Fighter now begins to match, then outpace the gunslinger, as the levels grow.

Now, if it could be Gunslinger 1/Fighter 3, well, then it's clearly outmatched, though I can't find anything saying it's a Fighter Archetype the progression is just far to similar to assume that allowed.

Now, a Gunslinger 1/Ranger 3 on the other hand is perfectly legal and can easily fit in everything to use guns with (for free), easier access to TWF (Faster too), and doesn't face insane dex requirements. As it levels it will keep up in feats, but gets good spells and a powerful animal companion.

Maybe I'm crazy and Quickdraw cannot be used in this fashion, I'm just overlooking something so plainly obvious to everyone else. But this is what I see when I look at the Gunslinger. A cool concept, but much like the Monk Of The Four Winds, the mechanics and strength of it doesn't reach the same level of what others can do with the same.

To fix, improve Grit, make more of them Firearm Attacks rather than Standard Actions, change how the bonuses work and decide if the class is to have one massively big hit or to have attacks, and make it fit to that. And don't give the class weak features from other classes far too late into it's progression.


The book comes out in 2 weeks, mate. There'll be no changes to it at this point, so I recommend writing a Homebrew post once the final version comes out.


Really? Serves me right for wasting my time on this when not paying attention to release dates.

Though, considering I did this within a few hours of testing and running, as well as cross referencing, I hope they got this already covered in their net. Or that someone else posted up the same issues.


Well if it helps you haven't pointed out anything not already pointed out in the playtest so changes may have been made.


This is irrelevant at this point but I wanted to point out that Rapid Reload: Pistol and Paper Cartridges is more effective than multiple Pistols and Quickdraw in order to use full-attacks.

The Gunsmithing feat (Gunslinger level 1 for free) allows you to craft Alchemical rounds for half the cost, so it is 6 gold pieces per Paper Cartridge. Each additional pistol costs 1,000 gold pieces (craft yourself for 500 gp), so you can make between 83-166 paper cartridges for the price of one additional pistol.

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