Furthermore, why does it bother you that you need casters for things? I mean, every class needs their magic gear (AC enhancers, Stat-boosters, +5 weapon, and so forth.) And as a fighter, without master craftsman, I have to get that gear from *somewhere.* Even if I just chance across it, *somebody,* presumably a wizard, made my "big six" for me, even though my whole shtick is training myself at the "perfect" use of certain specific styles of combat, so I don't see that big a difference. Like it or don't, every class has to work with casters at some point, unless the adventure(s) they go on are specifically designed around the absence of casters. To be fair, I'm not a FAN of dependence on casters. I'd LOVE a self-sufficient, totally mundane fighter, but that's just not how the system goes.
It's not so much that as it is the idea that a monk would need a caster's help to make himself considered masterwork. It just really deflates the monk's flavor for me.
But on the whole caster-dependency just stings more when it comes to monks. Their whole flavor is about self-perfection and enlightenment, but they're still just as magic-item dependant, if not more, as everyone else. It's a big part of why I was so frustrated with Ultimate Magic's Vow of Poverty(don't wanna go off on that derail again).
Letting the monk make himself masterwork(or simply just already be that) at least maintains some of his pride even if he has to get the actually enhancements from a caster. At least there it can be flavored as "All you have to do is put the fire/ice/lightning/holy-light in front of me and I'll grab it".
I think even if you could transform all your limbs into masterwork weapons, then you'd still have to enchant them separately, returning us to the "prohibitive cost" problem.I was looking at it as taking care of unarmed strike as a whole. Full body solution or nothing, as far as I'm concerned. :)
I understand your grievance on the flavor, there. But if you wanna get cute about it, there's been mention of at least one UC archetype who can enhance his body, and then if that archetype stacks with Four Winds, you can make your own damn "fire/ice/lightning/acid"
One of my favorite monk-flavorings was that he was part of an order who idealized machines, and whose goal was to become, essentially, a full-on android, instead of just a cyborg. He gained, say, high jump through a surgical procedure that boosted his leg muscle output, his ki-points were self-replenishing fuel cells or power crystals or something.
Needless to say, he quickly gained a masterwork body.
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I understand your grievance on the flavor, there. But if you wanna get cute about it,
?
there's been mention of at least one UC archetype who can enhance his body, and then if that archetype stacks with Four Winds, you can make your own damn "fire/ice/lightning/acid"
I'm still waiting to see exactly what flavor that UC archetype is married to, but honestly I'd rather see such a feature available as an option for all monks(including Flowing Monks, which is the monk archetype I'm really waiting for). Four Winds comes with some seriously unwanted flavor as well(pretty much all of the "aspect of" features).
I was looking at it as taking care of unarmed strike as a whole. Full body solution or nothing, as far as I'm concerned. :)
Sure, that is also what I am wanting, therefore the idea of simply creating an appropiate magic item which does exactly that and is restricted to the "unarmed strike" weapon category. It is the most simple and elegant solution and doesn't require patching the whole Monk class.
The argument, as you have been making it, repeatedly (and I don't remember seeing anyone argue against you on this point,) is that the monk's "Unarmed Strike" is one weapon, one attack "type." In fact, core rules say "there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed," which supports the claim.
If an "unarmed strike," as full body contact (knees, elbows, fists and feet, according to the core) is one unit, one entity, one...weapon, then it counts as one weapon for the purpose of enchanting. Have no clue where you get the idea you'd have to enchant limbs separately.
Probably from the Amulet of Mighty Fists enchanting all of the wearers unarmed attacks. That it is so expensive is because it also enchants natural attacks, which are separated into the different limbs used to attack opponents.
And it has always been adjudicated that way and many different people have commented on the need of enchanting singular limbs to get the magic enhancement bonuses to attack and damage from them. Hunt up the information yourself, I am honestly tired of having to go on search binges which last up to half an hour, because someone can't be bothered to look it up for himself.
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1.) The way you make it sound is as if that will not happen until Pathfinder Second Edition.
Fortunately, that's not the case. There are several things in the game that are on the "to do" list for having a major FAQ about and the consequences of that will result in a significant rewrite/clarification of their text in the Core Rulebook. (For example, Stealth/hide in plain sight is one of them.) I have a list of these things, we (the designers) need to hammer out these issues together. I had expected that to happen before Gen Con, but some deadlines moved up and now it'll be after. Anyway, "does the monk need to be fixed" could be one of those issues, if we think it is serious enough.
2.) If there is any chance of that happening, but it is not your call, can we then get the opinion of Jason on that topic? I mean, by this point you guys at the Paizo office must have noticed that this is something which will not go away by simply ignoring it, but can we as anxious players get an update if there is a discussion at Paizo about fixing this?
I'll put it on the list. But see below.
3.) Why can't this be solved by simply introducing a Monk specific magic item ( "Handwraps of Power" or somesuch ), which give only the weapon category "Unarmed Strike" the normal weapon enchantment possibilities at normal pricing ( ignoring the whole "it's not masterwork" issue ), while specifically excluding natural attacks? This sounds like the single best solution to the dilemma for me, so that the whole class doesn't have to be re-designed.
Would the introduction of such an item actually fix the "problem" with monks? Or would it fix one aspect and you'd realize that there were still other "problems" with the monk? (BTW I'm putting "problem" in quotes because I'm not sure the class is as weak as you think. I've seen Rob McCreary's 12th-level monk punch out an iron golem all by himself in one round... maybe he happened to have the right combo of items, maybe not....)
BTW I wouldn't let you cast masterwork transformation on an unarmed strike, mainly because there is no "masterwork equivalent" for a unarmed strike, which means the spell would have no effect.
So, to reiterate ciretose's points, let's have an intellectual exercise about the monk. And bear in mind that I just woke up and I'm a little groggy, so if I make some weird suggestions, I blame that.
* 3/4 BAB. Would changing this to full BAB fix the problem? What other issues would need to be addressed if this is changed? Flurry already uses full BAB, for example, so it would have to be given a different bonus.
* Can't get past DR, mainly because the amulet of mighty fists costs more. Which it has to cost more because it's not fair for the guy with two short swords to pay x2 and have the monk using two fists or fist/elbow/foot/face pay only x1. Also, if the +1 AMF cost the same as a +1 sword, it becomes the best choice for every monster with 2 or more natural attacks per round, so that's a problem.
* Sub-point added by Sean: Part of the problem is the hand-waving of "what part of the body are you using?" question for the monk class, coupled with monsters able to use unarmed-strike-enhancing items. What if the general rule was the monk picked one of his natural attacks, such as a punch or kick, and all of his attacks were assumed to use that body part? Perhaps as you leveled you'd gain "additional" body parts that you could use for these attacks, perhaps corresponding to magic item slots, and could use them as part of your attack sequence. It's not like every martial arts style right out of the gate teaches you to punch, kick, headbutt, elbow, and so on... you learn those as you practice and study more. So with this idea, you *could* have the handwraps or gloves for hand enhancement, another item on the feet for kicks, a bracer item for elbows, a circlet for head butts, and so on (ideally they wouldn't be separate items with different listings, it would be one item that could be used in one of several slots). And perhaps still leave the AMF in the game for the really tough monk who has a bunch of slots and wants to apply an effect to all of them. But introducing slot-specific items still leaves the weirdness of "you can use any body part for unarmed strike," and would probably require some specificity in the rules about things like "if your hands are bound, you can't use punches" or "if your feet are manacled to the floor, you can't use kicks," which we don't normally do. (Not saying it can't be done, just saying it starts to address some body-part-specific stuff that we normally leave as an abstraction).
* Multi-ability dependency. Strength (like any melee class), Dex (to make up for lack of armor), Wisdom (for AC, ki pool, and some DCs). Is this a significant problem?
As far as the Multi-Ability Dependency point is concerned, Constitution might also be included. Of course, all classes benefit from a decent Con score, but for some of them it is a little more 'required', so to speak, than for others. The monk, in this case, is an 8HD armorless class that finds itself in the thick of things during battle situations, be it melee combat, battlefield control or combat maneuvers. A few hit points more, I believe, tend to make a bit of a difference as far as survivability and contribution to the party are concerned.
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* 3/4 BAB. Would changing this to full BAB fix the problem? What other issues would need to be addressed if this is changed? Flurry already uses full BAB, for example, so it would have to be given a different bonus.
It would help those that want to play their monks like skirmishers for certain. It could also help cut down on the number of exceptions that are made within the monk's rules so that it's able to do monk stuff, like combat maneuvers.
My only worry is that it could potentially overcorrect because of all the monk stuff that has come out since the core that assumes a 3/4 BAB and was designed accordingly.
* Can't get past DR, mainly because the amulet of mighty fists costs more. Which it has to cost more because it's not fair for the guy with two short swords to pay x2 and have the monk using two fists or fist/elbow/foot/face pay only x1. Also, if the +1 AMF cost the same as a +1 sword, it becomes the best choice for every monster with 2 or more natural attacks per round, so that's a problem.
Unarmed strike is only one abstracted attack though, whether a monk has no arms or four. There's no mechanical advantage to the monk's number of limbs he can use as long as he has one; it's the monk's flavor and special thing. As it is, the AoMF taxes the monk for flavor.
Having an option that isn't married with natural attacks(or an option made for the natural attack crowd) and priced accordingly would help a lot. Monks having a "made-for-monk" option and monsters/eidolons/druids/toothy-clawed-barbarians having a separate natural attacks option could really free up what the AoMF could be(or whatever it could be replaced with). And then there's the cap...
* Sub-point added by Sean: Part of the problem is the hand-waving of "what part of the body are you using?" question for the monk class, coupled with monsters able to use unarmed-strike-enhancing items. What if the general rule was the monk picked one of his natural attacks, such as a punch or kick, and all of his attacks were assumed to use that body part? Perhaps as you leveled you'd gain "additional" body parts that you could use for these attacks, perhaps corresponding to magic item slots, and could use them as part of your attack sequence. It's not like every martial arts style right out of the gate teaches you to punch, kick, headbutt, elbow, and so on... you learn those as you practice and study more. So with this idea, you *could* have the handwraps or gloves for hand enhancement, another item on the feet for kicks, a bracer item for elbows, a circlet for head butts, and so on (ideally they wouldn't be separate items with different listings, it would be one item that could be used in one of several slots). And perhaps still leave the AMF in the game for the really tough monk who has a bunch of slots and wants to apply an effect to all of them. But introducing slot-specific items still leaves the weirdness of "you can use any body part for unarmed strike," and would probably require some specificity in the rules about things like "if your hands are bound, you can't use punches" or "if your feet are manacled to the floor, you can't use kicks," which we don't normally do. (Not saying it can't be done, just saying it starts to address some body-part-specific stuff that we normally leave as an abstraction).
This is a really worrying suggestion, hopefully one the groggy-disclaimer was accounting for. :)
Unabstracting unarmed strike would really overcomplicate an already complicated class, and takes away a lot of the visual freedom that people enjoy in their monks. Having to earn your limbs as you level up would kill a lot of the fun of being a monk.
This would also still break the monk's bank really fast if he's required to buy gear for every piece of his body that he'd like to use in a fight effectively.
If I were to make handwraps an option for my players, I'd just require that they be located on the hands and possibly feet and that the complete set has to be intact. If it is, they infuse the entire body(unarmed strike) with their enhancement). It leaves the monk still vulnerable to sunders and such while leaving the aesthetics in the player's control.
* Multi-ability dependency. Strength (like any melee class), Dex (to make up for lack of armor), Wisdom (for AC, ki pool, and some DCs). Is this a significant problem?
Like F. Castor I'd count CON in there as well for the same reasons. However, from the sound of things there has been some help here in UC. According to those that have the book, there are options for monks to finally build DEX-focused or WIS-focused (both of which seem to be the most popular flavor stats for the monk) rather than feeling forced to focus on STR.
Options for other monks to lean more on DEX and/or WIS would still be nice though. This could probably be pulled off easily through feats, without requiring a rebuild of the class. Anything to help make them more managable under 15-point buy.
1.) The way you make it sound is as if that will not happen until Pathfinder Second Edition.Fortunately, that's not the case. There are several things in the game that are on the "to do" list for having a major FAQ about and the consequences of that will result in a significant rewrite/clarification of their text in the Core Rulebook. (For example, Stealth/hide in plain sight is one of them.) I have a list of these things, we (the designers) need to hammer out these issues together. I had expected that to happen before Gen Con, but some deadlines moved up and now it'll be after. Anyway, "does the monk need to be fixed" could be one of those issues, if we think it is serious enough.
Okay, that is the very best news I have heard for Pathfinder Monks, ever. I hope the decision you come to in this upcoming discussion between yourselves will indeed result in the issues with the Monk being addressed.
3.) Why can't this be solved by simply introducing a Monk specific magic item ( "Handwraps of Power" or somesuch ), which give only the weapon category "Unarmed Strike" the normal weapon enchantment possibilities at normal pricing ( ignoring the whole "it's not masterwork" issue ), while specifically excluding natural attacks? This sounds like the single best solution to the dilemma for me, so that the whole class doesn't have to be re-designed.Would the introduction of such an item actually fix the "problem" with monks? Or would it fix one aspect and you'd realize that there were still other "problems" with the monk? (BTW I'm putting "problem" in quotes because I'm not sure the class is as weak as you think. I've seen Rob McCreary's 12th-level monk punch out an iron golem all by himself in one round... maybe he happened to have the right combo of items, maybe not....)
Well, so far I have not seen anyone come up with any downsides to the idea of introducing such an item. Make the item specific to the combined attack type of "unarmed strike" which follows the iterative attack progression of classes, but exclude "natural attacks". That avoids stepping on the feet of the advantages of the Amulet of Mighty Fists and precludes a character with multiple natural attacks getting those attack types enchanted cheaply.
So, to reiterate ciretose's points, let's have an intellectual exercise about the monk. And bear in mind that I just woke up and I'm a little groggy, so if I make some weird suggestions, I blame that.
I am writing this late in the evening, so we are probably even. :p
* 3/4 BAB. Would changing this to full BAB fix the problem? What other issues would need to be addressed if this is changed? Flurry already uses full BAB, for example, so it would have to be given a different bonus.
Since Flurry uses the full BAB, I personally have no issues with the 3/4 BAB. Others disagree, of course. As melee skirmishing as a viable damage output route ( i.e. in comparison to full attacks ) is a very limited option in Pathfinder anyway, having to do full attacks for the best to hit/damage ratio doesn't hurt the Monk as a class, IMO.
* Can't get past DR, mainly because the amulet of mighty fists costs more. Which it has to cost more because it's not fair for the guy with two short swords to pay x2 and have the monk using two fists or fist/elbow/foot/face pay only x1. Also, if the +1 AMF cost the same as a +1 sword, it becomes the best choice for every monster with 2 or more natural attacks per round, so that's a problem.
Two points to that:
1.) What you are saying here with the pricing of the Amulet, is that it is basically assumed that the Monk is using Flurry as often as possible. As such the Monk basically is always two weapon fighting and should incur costs equal to two enchanted weapons. There are however, to my mind, several points on contention on this line of thinking:
a.) The Amulet costs 2.5 times the cost of a single enchanted weapon. That already penalizes the Monk more than a two-weapon fighter.
b.) You cannot enchant the Amulet above a total +5 modifier, be it pure enhancement or special abilities.
c.) The amulet occupies one of the most valuable body slots, the neck. This starves a Monk of a Natural Armor amulet ( lest he pay a 50% uptick to double enchant his amulet ).
2.) With the introduction of the Clustered Shots feat, the question could be asked why no such feat was created for melee attackers. The Monk would be an obvious beneficiary of such.
Introducing a new magic item which only enhances unarmed attacks, as outlined further up in this post, could be done with a price of 150% to a normal magic weapon, i.e. 3000 Gold for a +1 enhancement, 12000 Gold for +2, and so on. This would still be cheaper than two single weapons, true, but there is an opportunity cost of having to deal with much higher jumps between the different stages of enhancement. When someone wants to upgrade a +3 weapon to a +4 weapon, he pays 14000 gold pieces. A Monk with such a hypothetical item would have to pay 21000 GP, which would take him quite longer to accumulate.
* Sub-point added by Sean: Part of the problem is the hand-waving of "what part of the body are you using?" question for the monk class, coupled with monsters able to use unarmed-strike-enhancing items. What if the general rule was the monk picked one of his natural attacks, such as a punch or kick, and all of his attacks were assumed to use that body part? Perhaps as you leveled you'd gain "additional" body parts that you could use for these attacks, perhaps corresponding to magic item slots, and could use them as part of your attack sequence. It's not like every martial arts style right out of the gate teaches you to punch, kick, headbutt, elbow, and so on... you learn those as you practice and study more. So with this idea, you *could* have the handwraps or gloves for hand enhancement, another item on the feet for kicks, a bracer item for elbows, a circlet for head butts, and so on (ideally they wouldn't be separate items with different listings, it would be one item that could be used in one of several slots). And perhaps still leave the AMF in the game for the really tough monk who has a bunch of slots and wants to apply an effect to all of them. But introducing slot-specific items still leaves the weirdness of "you can use any body part for unarmed strike," and would probably require some specificity in the rules about things like "if your hands are bound, you can't use punches" or "if your feet are manacled to the floor, you can't use kicks," which we don't normally do. (Not saying it can't be done, just saying it starts to address some body-part-specific stuff that we normally leave as an abstraction).
As someone who practiced Karate for a few years, I must disagree with your assertion that the use of different body parts is trained only later on. :p Sure, Karate is more reliant on punches than other martial arts, but at least my own Sensei never neglected showing us how to kick and use elbows and knees. Hell, all that is part of the very first Katas you practice.
My personal proposal for a solution just abstracts the hypothetical new item to function for all body parts, but specifically not be usable for natural attacks. That may sound a bit illogical ( "So, if I punch him I get the bonus, but if I use my claws I don't?" ), but, hey, magic. ^^ Fireballs also don't make sense in the real world after all.
* Multi-ability dependency. Strength (like any melee class), Dex (to make up for lack of armor), Wisdom (for AC, ki pool, and some DCs). Is this a significant problem?
I refer here to F.Castors response. A lack of constitution is not good for a melee combatant. It is somewhat survivable, with the Pathfinder version of toughness and the favoured class bonus, but it hurts.
The problem here is really not that you cannot build a decent Monk with three attributes, but that having decent scores in STR, DEX, CON and WIS are iconic to the "generalized" ideal of a Monk. If all it would take to solve the problem is pure min-maxing, then this would be much less of an issue. But to stay true to what the general image of a kung-fu fighting Monk is, those four attributes are quite important.
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My personal proposal for a solution just abstracts the hypothetical new item to function for all body parts, but specifically not be usable for natural attacks. That may sound a bit illogical ( "So, if I punch him I get the bonus, but if I use my claws I don't?" ), but, hey, magic. ^^ Fireballs also don't make sense in the real world after all.
Maybe something like:
Natural weapon enhancer just play enhances the body.
Monk/Unarmed Strike enhancer channels its enhancement through the subject's training and mastery over their own body.
Not a good analogy, but it's like the difference between boosting the performance of a car or the driver. Or maybe not like it at all...
Yeah I just woke up not long ago too...
And concurring with knowing the monk is being looked at being a relief.
BTW I wouldn't let you cast masterwork transformation on an unarmed strike, mainly because there is no "masterwork equivalent" for a unarmed strike, which means the spell would have no effect.
What about the masterwork unarmed strike? If the unarmed strike counts as a manufactured weapon for all spells and effects, it has a masterwork equivalent for the purpose of the spell (as all manufactured weapons in PF have masterwork equivalents) :P
I don't see anything wrong with this being allowed, as it is Occam's razor for enhancing monk unarmed strike (i.e. no need to introduce handwraps or specify which body part is being used, etc). If that's still cheesy, then maybe say "At __ level, Monks Unarmed Strikes count as Masterwork weapons. This means they gain a +1 to attack with Unarmed Strikes and can be enchanted as magic weapons (see Ch. 15)"
That (semi-silliness) aside, I think there aren't too many issues here, esp. with Ultimate Combat, but just as a lot of Barbarians are Beast Totem, a lot of Fighters are Two-Handers, and a lot of Sorcerers are Arcane, a fair amount of the new builds arising from UC will likely result in a pigeonholing, to the exclusion of others, in some metagames. This isn't too much of a problem for me, and I (along with many others) sure won't stop playing the characters I want to, regardless of whether there are better builds. Even still, it gets tiresome to see yet ANOTHER tripping fighter.
Anyway. I think I stopped making a point a while back there, so...'til next time.
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Would the introduction of such an item actually fix the "problem" with monks? Or would it fix one aspect and you'd realize that there were still other "problems" with the monk? (BTW I'm putting "problem" in quotes because I'm not sure the class is as weak as you think. I've seen Rob McCreary's 12th-level monk punch out an iron golem all by himself in one round... maybe he happened to have the right combo of items, maybe not....)
BTW I wouldn't let you cast masterwork transformation on an unarmed strike, mainly because there is no "masterwork equivalent" for a unarmed strike, which means the spell would have no effect.
So, to reiterate ciretose's points, let's have an intellectual exercise about the monk. And bear in mind that I just woke up and I'm a little groggy, so if I make some weird suggestions, I blame that.
* 3/4 BAB. Would changing this to full BAB fix the problem? What other issues would need to be addressed if this is changed? Flurry already uses full BAB, for example, so it would have to be given a different bonus.
* Can't get past DR, mainly because the amulet of mighty fists costs more. Which it has to cost more because it's not fair for the guy with two short swords to pay x2 and have the monk using two fists or fist/elbow/foot/face pay only x1. Also, if the +1 AMF cost the same as a +1 sword, it becomes the best choice for every monster with 2 or more natural attacks per round, so that's a problem.
* Sub-point added by Sean: Part of the problem is the hand-waving of "what part of the body are you using?" question for the monk class, coupled with monsters able to use unarmed-strike-enhancing items. What if the general rule was the monk picked one of his natural attacks, such as a punch or kick, and all of his attacks were assumed to use that body part? Perhaps as you leveled you'd gain "additional" body parts that you could use for these attacks, perhaps corresponding to magic item slots, and could use them as part of your attack sequence. It's not like every martial arts style right out of the gate teaches you to punch, kick, headbutt, elbow, and so on... you learn those as you practice and study more. So with this idea, you *could* have the handwraps or gloves for hand enhancement, another item on the feet for kicks, a bracer item for elbows, a circlet for head butts, and so on (ideally they wouldn't be separate items with different listings, it would be one item that could be used in one of several slots). And perhaps still leave the AMF in the game for the really tough monk who has a bunch of slots and wants to apply an effect to all of them. But introducing slot-specific items still leaves the weirdness of "you can use any body part for unarmed strike," and would probably require some specificity in the rules about things like "if your hands are bound, you can't use punches" or "if your feet are manacled to the floor, you can't use kicks," which we don't normally do. (Not saying it can't be done, just saying it starts to address some body-part-specific stuff that we normally leave as an abstraction).
* Multi-ability dependency. Strength (like any melee class), Dex (to make up for lack of armor), Wisdom (for AC, ki pool, and some DCs). Is this a significant problem?
First, thanks for taking the time. I know I wasn't going to post more, but the thread seems to moving in a good place discussion wise so I'm going to stay in the pool a bit longer.
1. I don't think full BaB is needed. As you pointed out, flurry already follows full BaB, and that is enough for me considering all of the other supernatural abilities. I agree with you that monks are not as weak as the complaints would have you believe, but that is why I don't fall into the "overhaul" camp.
2. You make a good point about the hand wraps and use of the whole body. My suggestion would be rather than making a weapon, or "fixing" the amulet of mighty fists, an item that can be enhanced in the same way an amulet of mighty fists can be enhanced that doesn't occupy such a useful slot and doesn't have the +5 cap.
The monk robe already exist for the body slot, so perhaps some sort of mechanic could be added there to allow you to add enhancement bonuses to your body through the robe, but that may be to clunky. You also have the unused armor slot, but I can't think of a way visualize the fluff on that at the moment. Maybe a sash?
The amulet occupying the neck slot is a major issue since it could otherwise be served by an amulet of natural armor, something which thematically fits. This was mitigated by Quiggong having access to barkskin, but it seems it shouldn't need to be.
It is completely reasonable that the expense of enhancement should be the same as a two-weapon fighter. The issue, to me is the +5 cap and it occupying a slot that could be used elsewhere, neither of which applies to the TWF.
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Oh, and I forgot to address the MAD "Problem"
As Treantmonk pointed out, Dex is over-rated for monks. It is a nice thing to have, but by no means as important as Wisdom, Strength, or even Con.
A Monk with an 18 Wisdom a 12 Dex and dodge (1st level bonus feat, available without pre-requisite) will have a respectable 16 AC at first level.
I wouldn't be opposed to a mechanic that gave monks additional ability score boosts to physical stats at appropriate levels, as it would fit the flavor of the class well, but I think the "MAD" complaint is overblown.
Oh, and I forgot to address the MAD "Problem"
As Treantmonk pointed out, Dex is over-rated for monks. It is a nice thing to have, but by no means as important as Wisdom, Strength, or even Con.
A Monk with an 18 Wisdom a 12 Dex and dodge (1st level bonus feat, available without pre-requisite) will have a respectable 16 AC at first level.
I wouldn't be opposed to a mechanic that gave monks additional ability score boosts to physical stats at appropriate levels, as it would fit the flavor of the class well, but I think the "MAD" complaint is overblown.
This of course disregards completely that a.) the iconic flavour of the Monk is not "Schwarzenegger doing Kung Fu", but "Bruce Lee/Chow Yun Fat/Jackie Chan/Jet Lee doing Kung-Fu" ( or whomever you want to imagine in the role of iconic Monk ). That does call for at least good Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom. Constitution also is something important, as the Monk remains a melee class and, as can be clearly deduced by Seans comments, is supposed to use Flurry. As such he will get hit in return and needs hitpoints to survive.
Sure, you can min-max your way into having a mechanically viable build under Pathfinder, but that build only suits a very narrow definition of the Monk, one which generally is not the same as what we see in eastern martial arts movies.
Now, where we get a viable solution for this under Pathfinder rules is totally another question. I am quite a bit stumped on that, too.
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Oh, and I forgot to address the MAD "Problem"
As Treantmonk pointed out, Dex is over-rated for monks. It is a nice thing to have, but by no means as important as Wisdom, Strength, or even Con.
A Monk with an 18 Wisdom a 12 Dex and dodge (1st level bonus feat, available without pre-requisite) will have a respectable 16 AC at first level.
I wouldn't be opposed to a mechanic that gave monks additional ability score boosts to physical stats at appropriate levels, as it would fit the flavor of the class well, but I think the "MAD" complaint is overblown.
This of course disregards completely that a.) the iconic flavour of the Monk is not "Schwarzenegger doing Kung Fu", but "Bruce Lee/Chow Yun Fat/Jackie Chan/Jet Lee doing Kung-Fu" ( or whomever you want to imagine in the role of iconic Monk ). That does call for at least good Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom. Constitution also is something important, as the Monk remains a melee class and, as can be clearly deduced by Seans comments, is supposed to use Flurry. As such he will get hit in return and needs hitpoints to survive.
Sure, you can min-max your way into having a mechanically viable build under Pathfinder, but that build only suits a very narrow definition of the Monk, one which generally is not the same as what we see in eastern martial arts movies.
Now, where we get a viable solution for this under Pathfinder rules is totally another question. I am quite a bit stumped on that, too.
How would you feel about changing certain abilities to ability score bonuses. Slow fall becomes +2 Dex. High Jump +2 strength, Wholeness of Body +2 Con.
I could actually see it being reasonable to just add these as "in addition", as all come late enough to not be worth the level dip, none seem that overpowered if a MAD issue actually exists, and it fits quite well thematically if you are striving for physical perfection you should be superior physically.
That sounds like an interesting solution. Another idea could be to give the Monk an ability which combines STR and DEX bonuses for to-hit and damage, since both are probably lower than for other classes. Of course that can lead to abuse by min-maxing.
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That sounds like an interesting solution. Another idea could be to give the Monk an ability which combines STR and DEX bonuses for to-hit and damage, since both are probably lower than for other classes. Of course that can lead to abuse by min-maxing.
I would be equally concerned about level dipping.
For all the complaints about weapon finesse, there is a reason Dex and Str need to be kept separate. Allowing your AC and Damage to be controlled by Dex causes way to much synergey since Dex already governs ranged weapons, AC, a ton of skills, etc...
So, to reiterate ciretose's points, let's have an intellectual exercise about the monk. And bear in mind that I just woke up and I'm a little groggy, so if I make some weird suggestions, I blame that.
I'm ok with, and approve weird suggestions, infact I look forward to them.
* 3/4 BAB. Would changing this to full BAB fix the problem? What other issues would need to be addressed if this is changed? Flurry already uses full BAB, for example, so it would have to be given a different bonus.
It's true that for the purpose of FoB a monk doesn't need to concern themselves with full BAB. However, feat progression is something that monks very much have a problem with. The bonus feat selection somewhat helps alleviate this, but more combat oriented choices like Power Attack can't be obtained until lvl 3 at the earliest, bumping combat maneuvers like bull rush or sunder further back in the chain.
Furthermore, monks qualify for many other BAB based combat feats much later than full BAB counterparts, such as with Critical Feats. This is strange to me because Monks are very much taughted as being some sort of martial combatant that focuses on the use of their body/exotic fighting style.
as a punch or kick, and all of his attacks were assumed to use that body part? Perhaps as you leveled you'd gain "additional" body parts that you could use for these attacks, perhaps corresponding to magic item slots, and could use them as part of your attack sequence. It's not like every martial arts style right out of the gate teaches you to punch, kick, headbutt, elbow, and so on... you learn those as you practice and study more. So with this idea, you *could* have the handwraps or gloves for hand enhancement, another item on the feet for kicks, a bracer item for elbows, a circlet for head butts, and so on (ideally they wouldn't be separate items with different listings, it would be one item that could be used in one of several slots). And perhaps still leave the AMF in the game for the really tough monk who has a bunch of slots and wants to apply an effect to all of them. But introducing slot-specific items still leaves the weirdness of "you can use any body part for unarmed strike," and would probably require some specificity in the rules about things like "if your hands are bound, you can't use punches" or "if your feet are manacled to the floor, you can't use kicks," which we don't normally do. (Not saying it can't be done, just saying it starts to address some body-part-specific stuff that we normally leave as an abstraction).
I don't like the idea of singling out body parts either. Creates a logistical itemization nightmare and potentially breaks flavor.
Besides a simple: The Monk's body is Masterwork @ X level, or an instantaneous spell, or w/e, Introducing an item into the game that takes up an unused slot for most monks (Armor and/or Gloves come to mind immediately) would probably be simpler. Just have it specifically call out unarmed strike as opposed to all natural weapons, and make it cost 1.5 more as was mentioned earlier and most people would be happy I think.
As an aside on monk itemization: I heard that in UC there are a collection of armors that a +1 AC, no max dex, or ASF, No Penalty. Would it be really that bad for a monk to be able to use it and not lose all of their class abilities? The Armor slot is useless anyways, and it does alleviate potential itemization and survivability issues folks might have down the road.
* Multi-ability dependency. Strength (like any melee class), Dex (to make up for lack of armor), Wisdom (for AC, ki pool, and some DCs). Is this a significant problem?
As was mentioned earlier, CON is important, being a melee combatant means you're going to get hit. Though with the mentioned bump to full BAB, that would also imply d10 HD, which increases average HP by 1, alleviating the need for con slightly.
OTOH: Vanilla monks are potentially frail in the begginig, or they give up a lot to have on par AC. The above examples that generates 16 AC using 18 WIS, 12 DEX and Dodge uses 12 points on point by (this is assuming that the racial bonus goes into WIS, otherwise it's 19 points) leaving you with only 3 (in a world of 15 PB) to use on CON and STR. Some of that can be recouped by Dumping INT and CHA, but that can come with punishments that are DM dependent, and also lock you out of qualifying for feats like Greater Trip, or quirky things like Eldritch Heritage.
This discussion of course changes significantly with the addition of Archetypes because they're an undefined variable.
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OTOH: Vanilla monks are potentially frail in the begginig, or they give up a lot to have on par AC.Here I disagree with you. Are they frail relative to a full martial class. Yes.
But at the same time a first level monk functionally has 3 feats (one normal, one bonus, and flurry is basically two weapon fighting) free armor, a free weapon, and stunning fist. Make that bonus feat Dodge (which they don't need the pre-requisite for) and your AC is solid, great against touch, and you have all good saves.
Let's follow the logical level progression of the suggestion I made above about ability score enhancements as part of the class with specific abilities.
1st Level I did above.
2nd Level you get another feat and evasion, so I think we are still keeping up.
3rd Level you get fast movement, but you may be starting to slip a bit with AC and damage if you don't get an item.
4th level what I proposed I would add a +2 inherent dex boost as part of (or in place of) slow fall. Not game breaking, but a nice little boost, simple to implement and too deep for it to be worth someone to level dip for it.
5th level High jump, and throw on a +2 to strength as part of (or in place of) high jump. This may be too close to the dex, but it is logical synergy with high jump.
6th is another bonus feat
7th +2 to con as part of Wholeness of body (or instead of)Thoughts?
Here I disagree with you. Are they frail relative to a full martial class. Yes.
After looking at the Monster Creation Rules I think I probably over estimated how much AC constitutes frail, so I'll retract that statement.
Let's follow the logical level progression of the suggestion I made above about ability score enhancements as part of the class with specific abilities.
1st Level I did above.
2nd Level you get another feat and evasion, so I think we are still keeping up.
3rd Level you get fast movement, but you may be starting to slip a bit with AC and damage if you don't get an item.
4th level what I proposed I would add a +2 inherent dex boost as part of (or in place of) slow fall. Not game breaking, but a nice little boost, simple to implement and too deep for it to be worth someone to level dip for it.
5th level High jump, and throw on a +2 to strength as part of (or in place of) high jump. This may be too close to the dex, but it is logical synergy with high jump.
6th is another bonus feat
7th +2 to con as part of Wholeness of body (or instead of)Thoughts?
Looks interesting, and is very flavorfull, but I honestly don't think that monks *need* inherent class based stat bonuses. It also creates weird tension between Base and Archetypes, since the thing that they replaced go buffed, but the replacement abilities stayed the same, changing the decision calculus.
I'm more of the opinion that monks should have easier access to combat feats. At least, that's where I think it should start. If other problems crop up, it's most likely as a result of quirks inherent in the class.
If I were to make changes to the Monk, they would be as follows:
1) Full BAB, including d10 for hit dice.
2) Change the movement bonuses to an untyped bonus, and reduce them to +5' per step rather than +10 per step. ALLOW THEM TO ADD TO 5' STEP DISTANCE AT THE COST OF 1 Ki point per usage. This allows the Monk's two most useful abilities to synergize, finally. It also makes the Monk the master of mobile combat.
3) Allow the monk to choose, when going up a level, to add the +1 bonus to AC or to their To Hits with Monk weapons and Flurry. The problem Monks have isn't the damage per hit, it's that Flurry of Blows becomes Flurry of Misses somewhere around 12th level due to the expense of magic items and B) Fighter style weapon training. It might be necessary to change the AC bonus progression a bit.
4) Reduce cost of AMF to bonus^2 * 3,500, and allow it to go to a +10 bonus with mods. This allows Monks to get it at about the same time that a TWF character gets a pair of +1 swords. I do not know where to change the slot on this. I'd be tempted to make them Gloves of Mighty Fists, myself, or Wrist Wraps of Mighty Fists.
4a) Right now the best justification for the pricing of the current AMF:
A) They replace a pair of shortswords for enchantment costs. On the other hand a two handed sword does the same damage as a pair of shortswords, and costs half as much to enchant, plus does more damage in one whack for breaking through DR.
B) It also adds to all CMB checks done with empty hands. I'd rather see a +1 enchantment that specifically addresses this as +2 to CMB and CMD checks without adding to-hits and damage bonuses instead, and allow it to go up at the usual progression, so it's an interesting trade-off in making the item.
Monks in my homebrew world have the option of enchanting them selves through their unused Armor item slot by Tatooing,Scarring,something similar. it cost 1.5x the weapon enchant cost and requires them to keep at least one Ki point in there pool.
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BTW I wouldn't let you cast masterwork transformation on an unarmed strike, mainly because there is no "masterwork equivalent" for a unarmed strike, which means the spell would have no effect.
I just read this and instantly though of David Duchovny's hand model character from Zoolander...