Why All The Hate Towards Blasting?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Good citizens, let it be known that under my gentle rule of iron, all good citizens need not choose either ice-cream or chocolate but may instead, at my fair and prejudicial command, enjoy both ice-cream and chocolate, together, if they so wish/are compelled.

I give to you, good citizens of Our Glorious Nation..

CHOCOLATE ICE-CREAM!

Enjoy!

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Warning: Contains awesome.

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*shakes fist*


Rory wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Maximized Intensified Empowered Fireball will be doing...Well I'm not sure what it'd be doing since static bonuses based on level are increase by empowered, and I'm not sure if the +2 per die (which is related to level) is affected. But assuming it's not, that's 15d6 * 1.5 = 135 + 50 = 185 damage.

The damage is not right (Empowered does not stack with Maximized), but this is a 6th level spell via Spell Perfection.

Further, Ravingdork said 200+ damage "per round" and not with one spell, so you can bet he is using a Quickened-Intensified-Fireball as a 4th level spell too.

Maximized-Intensified-Empowered Fireball = 90 damage + 15d6/2 + 15 (draconic bloodline) + 7 (orc favored class bonus) = 139ish damage

Quickened-Intensified-Fireball = 15d6 + 15 (draconic) + 7 (orc) = 65ish damage

139 + 65 = 204 damage (at level 15)

You can get around the fire resistance by using the meta magic to change energy types and the trait to give -1 casting level to meta magic to the class. This is required for against fire immunity, so pick cold energy to hit the vulnerability to account for loss of damage from not being a fire spell. Against 30 pts of fire resistance, this combo is 144ish AE damage potential, which is still respectable.

Well, Maximize Spell specifically has a line about Empowered Spell and it isn't "doesn't work together." It sounds like you would take 15d6 (intensified maximized) for 90 damage, then roll 7d6. Either way, my math isn't 100% right.

And you need to keep it Fire type to get the bonuses of +2 damage per die and +1/2 HD extra fire damage. So I highly doubt he changed the fire type.

I'm still waiting for him to post it!


Dire Mongoose wrote:
Doskious Steele wrote:


Empowered Scorching Ray is not necessarily as good as Charm Monster when Charm Monster is good, but is usually better than Charm Monster when Charm Monster is bad.

On the other hand (to stick with your example) there's a staggering amount of fire resistance / immunity in the game.

Probably there aren't quite as many fire immune monsters as charm immune monsters, but I bet it's not too far off.

I'll bet that there are at least as many Fire Resistant enemies as enemies with good Will saves. What with Charm immunity being integral to two independent creature types (Undead, Constructs), I'd expect that Fire-immune creatures would be a smaller group.

I grant the premise that Empowered Scorching Ray, as a [Fire] spell may not be the best example. Perhaps Elemental (Acid) Fireball might be a better comparison. <shrug> I dunno - everything has benefits and drawbacks.

That said, even if the comparison groups that are automatically immune are approximately the same size and the two spells are equally likely to be "bad" selections on that basis, the other semi-comparable quality, Fire resistance and good Will saves, are not as easily paired. If a creature makes a good will save it will totally negate the effects of Charm Monster, whereas if a creature with Fire resistance is targeted by Empowered Scorching Ray (which will do an average of 21 damage per ray) it will still probably take some damage from the effect.

Of course, this is just one example; I'm sure that there are others, some of which favor Blasting and others which favor Control. I'm not trying to make a case for or against any kind of spell. My goal was to present an example of the relative trade-offs between Control spells, many of which are predicated on applicability, and Blasting spells which are substantially less so.

Are there some Control spells that aren't situation-dependent? Sure, spells like Slow and Cloudkill are pretty universally applicable. Nevertheless I feel that, in most evaluations of the efficacy of Blasting spells, the larger picture of how the spells play out is insufficiently considered from the perspective of preparing for a set of unpredictable encounters.


Cheapy wrote:
Well, Maximize Spell specifically has a line about Empowered Spell and it isn't "doesn't work together." It sounds like you would take 15d6 (intensified maximized) for 90 damage, then roll 7d6. Either way, my math isn't 100% right.

It was my understanding that a Maximized Empowered spell that normally deals NdM damage would deal (N x M){maximized} + (NdM/2){rolled for empowered} damage.

So a Maximized Empowered Fireball cast by a 15th level caster would deal (10 x 6) + (10d6/2) damage (on average, 60 + (10 x 3.5)/2 = 60 + 35/2 = 77). (Since fireball caps at 10d6.)

A Maximized Empowered Intensified Fireball cast by a 15th level caster would deal (15 x 6) + (15d6/2) damage (on average, 90 + (15 x 3.5)/2 = 90 + 53.5/2 = 90 + 26 = 116).


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Irontruth wrote:

The downfall of evocation for me is how much resistance someone can get from a 2nd level spell, Resist Energy. By 11th level it pretty much negates the majority of damage from most energy based spells. At the end of Rise of the Runelords, I was playing a paladin who was caster level 11, he was hit by a meteor swarm and took no damage.

level 2 Abjuration > level 9 evocation

Then you or your GM made a mistake. Meteor Swarm has changed significantly since previous editions. Among other things, you add the damage from all the spheres and bursts AND THEN apply resistance. There's no way you could have take 0 damage unless you passed ALL of your saves AND the caster rolled near minimum damage.

Blasting doesn't suck in Pathfinder, especially since the APG was released. The only people who decry it are those who either (1) are still caught up in the "old ways" where it really did suck, or (2) don't know what they are doing when they make blasters.

Anyone ever notice how, when comparing blasters to fighters, they give you the numbers for a "plain old Joe spellcaster" casting an unmodified blasting spell, but then they turn around and compare that to an optimized fighter with a bunch of synergized feats and magic items? That's BS.

When I make comparisons, it's an optimized (or near optimized) spellcaster vs. an optimized (or near-optimized) fighter, respectively.

WPharolin wrote:
Starbuck_II wrote:


Likely, he means in total not toward each.
Ravingdork wrote:
That is only true at lower levels. I've created blaster sorcerers that can (several times a day) deal 200+ damage to MULTIPLE targets in a single round.
Emphasis mine. He means what he says he means. I don't doubt that he was able to make a high damage blaster. I'm more curious about how he got around immunity and second level abjurations spells.

I meant, barring a good save, every target caught in the area would take approximately 200 damage. If I had hit 10 targets, that would be around 2,000 damage dealt out in a single round.

Thaylen wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

To those saying fighters do more damage, I must rebut:

That is only true at lower levels. I've created blaster sorcerers that can (several times a day) deal 200+ damage to MULTIPLE targets in a single round.

Not even 20th-level fighter archers can top that.

You mind sharing what build you used to do 200+ damage with an AOE spell? I have a few Ideas but I have yet to run a high level wizard in pathfinder.

Immunities and basic saves ARE a pain, but there are ways around that (such as the Elemental Spell metamagic feat, Elemental Focus/Spell Focus line, and Spell Penetration/Spell SPecialization line of feats).

I'm not shy about investing a lot of feats to make it work. Some people call it a weakness of the build, I call it "resource management" on par with what every optimized character needs to do.

My admit the my build below IS on the high end of DPR optimization for its class (in the same way that the archer fighter is on the high end of fighter builds). Not all spellcasters will be as tightly optimized, which is fine, as I kind of over shot with the following anyways:

First, you start with a half-orc sorcerer with the Crossblooded/Wildblooded (draconic [brass dragon], elemental [primal fire]) bloodlines. That, in conjunction with your favored class bonuses gives +2 damage per damage die of any fire spell you cast, plus an additional +10 damage for any fire spell you cast.

Stack that with Empowered, Intensified Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, and Spell Perfection (along with the Magical Lineage trait) and you can launch two fireball spells in a round that deal...

First Fireball: 130 + (15d6+30)/2 = ~171.25 damage; empowered, intensified, maximized; Uses a 6th-level slot
Second Fireball: 15d6+30 + (15d6+30)/2 = ~123.75; empowered, intensified, quickened; Uses a 6th-level slot

Before defenses, that comes up to ~295 damage in a single round to potentially dozens of targets.

It becomes ~235 damage if the enemy is using certain 2nd-levels spells, still enough to kill most.

Assuming a great spellcasting stat (~30s), You should be able to "nova" in this fashion ~6 times per day. That's more than the average number of challenging encounters you will face in a given day so you're pretty well covered.

Not every GM will allow static spell bonuses to be increased, however, despite the new FAQ saying otherwise. In such a case, the numbers might look more like the following...

First Fireball: 130 + (15d6)/2 = ~156.25 damage; empowered, intensified, maximized; Uses a 6th-level slot
Second Fireball: 15d6+30 + (15d6)/2 = ~108.75; empowered, intensified, quickened; Uses a 6th-level slot

Which in itself averages out to 265 damage before defenses.

In general, you can expect to deal over 100 damage (even on a passed save) short of failing against SR, energy immunity, or evasion.

As I said before, the first defense can be mitigated by increasing your caster level (or effective caster level). The second can be overcome by additional metamagic (though your damage will drop somewhat, you can still deal a respectable amount against a creature that would otherwise be immune*). The third is rare and can be better overcome by incrasing your saves.

* If the creature has an energy immunity by virtue of an energy subtype, change your energy damage to the same type as it's vulnerable to, and you can easily make up for your lost damage.

With Spell Perfection, it is possible to get a +12 to caster level VS spell resistance as well as a +8 to your save DCs. That goes a long way towards keeping your blasting effective well into the high levels.

You won't be Boss in every situation, but then again, that was never the point. You can still contribute just as well as any other member of the party, even when compared to the fighter archer or a god wizard.

I've used builds such as the above IN CONJUNCTION with god wizard tactics to annihilate entire armies.

EDIT: The above example was using a 20th-level sorcerer build, but you can do comparable damage as early as level 15. With metamagic rods you can increase the damage even further (or deal equivalent damage well BEFORE level 15).

EDIT: The above build uses fire as its chosen element. Using another energy type will reduce damage somewhat, but will often come with a host of other advantages (such as coming up against immunity less often and having more versatility in general).

EDIT: I'm sure someone can eek out more damage with their own build (such as by finding a more efficient use of spells/metamagic or by interpreting that UMD and a ring of revelations would allow access to Burning Magic revelation, for example), but getting the most damage wasn't the point. Showing that their ARE good blaster builds comparable to other classes was (and even then, I think I shot over the top by a fair margin).


Ravingdork wrote:


EDIT: The above example was using a 20th-level sorcerer build, but you can do comparable damage as early as level 15. With metamagic rods you can increase the damage even further (or deal equivalent damage well BEFORE level 15).

I'm sort of curious as to what that character looks like at level 5 or 6, since those are levels my games actually reach, whereas 15 or 20 are not.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dire Mongoose wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:


EDIT: The above example was using a 20th-level sorcerer build, but you can do comparable damage as early as level 15. With metamagic rods you can increase the damage even further (or deal equivalent damage well BEFORE level 15).
I'm sort of curious as to what that character looks like at level 5 or 6, since those are levels my games actually reach, whereas 15 or 20 are not.

Most spellcasters at levels 5 and 6 suck. This is a weakness of spellcasters in general, however, not of necessarily of blasters specifically.

A good blaster build only really comes into its own at levels 10+, not before.


Ravingdork wrote:
Most spellcasters at levels 5 and 6 suck.

That's not my experience.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dire Mongoose wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Most spellcasters at levels 5 and 6 suck.
That's not my experience.

I have a reason to believe my GM fudges the enemy's saves in their favor from time to time. What's more, I specialize in high level spells, not low-level spells.

I know their are some people out there who use commonly underestimated spells such as colorspray, sleep, glitterdust, and grease to great effect. Many of my fellow players, as experienced as they are, continue look at those kinds of spells and think "that's a joke wizard who prefers fairy magic" and then they pick up mage armor, magic missile, and burning hands. :/


Dire Mongoose wrote:
I'm sort of curious as to what that character looks like at level 5 or 6, since those are levels my games actually reach, whereas 15 or 20 are not.

A pyromaniac draconic gnome sorcerer...

Level 5:

Intensified Burning Hands = 6d4 + 6 = 21 damage

Level 6:

Intensified Burning Hands = 7d4 + 7 = 24 damage

Fireball = 7d6 + 7 = 31 damage

(I believe the half-orc crossblooded is a tad higher, but the above ain't terrible)

EDIT: At 4th and 5th level, I'm a fan of Flaming Sphere as it allows multiple rounds of 3d6+3 damage potential as well as creating an obstacle for foes.

Scarab Sages

Ravingdork wrote:


A good blaster build only really comes into its own at levels 10+, not before.

My blaster sorcerer does 8d6+18 damage at level 4 with scorching ray (pyromaniac gnome w/ Spell Specialization + bloodlines and havoc of the society trait). And Burning hands does 4d4+9 in a cone. This should be enough to allow you to kill often before you get fireball. Once you hit 6th you can change you specialized spell to fireball and deal 9d6+19 damage and still keep your 8d6+18 scorching ray.

Grand Lodge

Cheapy wrote:


Now, assuming it's RavingDork, which it is, he probably would assume that +2 per die does scale, so now it's 202.5 damage to multiple enemies. And we've finally figured out how he does it. By using up his 9th level slots for a spell that deals the most resisted type of energy as opposed to something useful like Time Stop, or creating wooden golems to fight for you, or imprisoning your enemies beneath the ground.

I won't try to defend RD's math or reasoning. But there will be times when being able to AOE a bunch of mooks will be useful, especially if you play any battle interactive type scenarios. I wouldn't neccessarily super-specialise to get those numbers as such a scenario would not necessitate that. It's one of the advantages of a sorcerer where there isn't any real loss in including some blasting spells in your tool kit. They're there if you need them and not in your way when you don't.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Can't speak for monsters, but if you use my build above against on par CR classed opponents, you are likely to kill them outright or at least put the fear into them.

Those with high HP (barbarians, fighters, paladins, rangers, etc.) are likely to survive the opening salvo, but everyone else faces a real chance of dying. Only the lucky or prepared ones ever survive the second salvo in round 2.

My level 15 was once surrounded by nearly a dozen level 15 NPCs. I won initiative and turned them all into ash with my heavily metamagic'd fire snake spell.

My GM, who had intended for me to be captured, went into a fit of shock and (I suspect) had to ad hoc more enemies arriving to keep the story on course.

Still got the XP of course. :D


To me, if a level 15 straight caster can't trivialize any encounter in a round, you're probably doing something wrong.

The wheels have well fallen off any 3.X game several levels ago at that point, and while Pathfinder has helped that somewhat, it's still pretty much true.

All IMHO, of course. I know some people looooove high level play.


Dire Mongoose wrote:

To me, if a level 15 straight caster can't trivialize any encounter in a round, you're probably doing something wrong.

The wheels have well fallen off any 3.X game several levels ago at that point, and while Pathfinder has helped that somewhat, it's still pretty much true.

All IMHO, of course. I know some people looooove high level play.

You just have to think challenges and priorities differently. I indeed would change few things.

But let's stop it is a dead horse ;)

I want just to add that the spellcaster is needed to do not die, not to trivialize. If is trivialized, can happen, but if happens regularly, something is wrong in the DMing.

Scarab Sages

While I enjoy high level play I have always earned my levels. I've seen many people ask about building a caster starting at 7th or higher and I just don't understand it.

I admit, until I get second level spells on my sorcerer it's kind of a pain. And even with second level spells I find myself still restricted a bit with my lack of spell quantity. But it just feels so good when I finally get 3rd level spells and can cast relatively often. And once I get 4th I use all those slots for my blasty spells, allowing me to spam freely. I do get some get utility spells as well, haste, fly and invis are always in my lineup, but they always come after. And overland flight is always my first 5th. But its this growth that makes me love the game.

Grand Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:
Dire Mongoose wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Most spellcasters at levels 5 and 6 suck.
That's not my experience.

I have a reason to believe my GM fudges the enemy's saves in their favor from time to time. What's more, I specialize in high level spells, not low-level spells.

I know their are some people out there who use commonly underestimated spells such as colorspray, sleep, glitterdust, and grease to great effect. Many of my fellow players, as experienced as they are, continue look at those kinds of spells and think "that's a joke wizard who prefers fairy magic" and then they pick up mage armor, magic missile, and burning hands. :/

Hopefully those fellow players of yours will never find themselves in a situation where they have to contain a riot or otherwise respond in an non lethal fashion. Color Spray was the decisive spell when we found ourselves in the middle of a riot in LSJ.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Dire Mongoose wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Most spellcasters at levels 5 and 6 suck.
That's not my experience.

I have a reason to believe my GM fudges the enemy's saves in their favor from time to time. What's more, I specialize in high level spells, not low-level spells.

I know their are some people out there who use commonly underestimated spells such as colorspray, sleep, glitterdust, and grease to great effect. Many of my fellow players, as experienced as they are, continue look at those kinds of spells and think "that's a joke wizard who prefers fairy magic" and then they pick up mage armor, magic missile, and burning hands. :/

Hopefully those fellow players of yours will never find themselves in a situation where they have to contain a riot or otherwise respond in an non lethal fashion. Color Spray was the decisive spell when we found ourselves in the middle of a riot in LSJ.

Actually, in a recent game we had to quell just such a riot that threatened the local ruler (whose guard were being overwhelmed).

My inquisitor hit the crowd with a few calm emotions and the mob was quickly dispersed without any excessive harm to anyone after my arrival.

Sadly, the mob arrived with a pair of golems (signaling us that there are powerful instigators somewhere). The party wizard trapped them with pit spells, but sadly killed dozens of citizenry in the process.


Ravingdork wrote:
I have a reason to believe my GM fudges the enemy's saves in their favor from time to time.

I have yet to find a GM who does not.


Jason Ellis 350 wrote:


I have yet to find a GM who does not.

Some, including me when I'm on that side of the screen, roll everything in front of the players.

Sometimes the big fight of the day eats a Baleful Polymorph in the first round, becomes a bunny, and falls to its death. It happens.


Dire Mongoose wrote:
Jason Ellis 350 wrote:


I have yet to find a GM who does not.

Some, including me when I'm on that side of the screen, roll everything in front of the players.

Sometimes the big fight of the day eats a Baleful Polymorph in the first round, becomes a bunny, and falls to its death. It happens.

I've seen a Monk Quivering Palm a Great Wyrm Red Dragon. Not in round 1 - it took a while get te onk THERE, ALIVE.

But still. Players still remember that as an awesome scene.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jason Ellis 350 wrote:


I have yet to find a GM who does not.

That is seriously discouraging. Why play a game like that when I can just sit and listen to the GM tell his story? If the player's decisions don't matter, than it's essentially the same thing.

Dire Mongoose wrote:

Some, including me when I'm on that side of the screen, roll everything in front of the players.

Sometimes the big fight of the day eats a Baleful Polymorph in the first round, becomes a bunny, and falls to its death. It happens.

Why would it fall? The PCs drop it off a cliff? Or perhaps it was flying using wings? If it was flying due to a spell, it would remain flying as baleful polymorph does nothing to end other ongoing spells (unless they are polymorph spells).

Turn a flying wizard into a rabbit and, if he keeps his intelligence, will simply be a rabbit that flies away.


If Only there was a way to ignore the laws of physics to set up Scorpios faster... Some sort of mystical energy...

I am excited about seeing what new magic items there are, and new weapon abilities.


Ravingdork wrote:
Jason Ellis 350 wrote:


I have yet to find a GM who does not.

That is seriously discouraging. Why play the game like that when I can just sit and listen to the GM tell his story?

Dire Mongoose wrote:

Some, including me when I'm on that side of the screen, roll everything in front of the players.

Sometimes the big fight of the day eats a Baleful Polymorph in the first round, becomes a bunny, and falls to its death. It happens.

Why would it fall? The PCs drop it off a cliff? Or perhaps it was flying using wings? If it was flying due to a spell, it would remain flying as baleful polymorph does nothing to end other ongoing spells (unless they are polymorph spells).

Turn a flying wizard into a rabbit and, if he keeps his intelligence, will simply be a rabbit that flies away.

As much as I hate nat 1's against certain spells I don't fudge the roll. If I start to do that I will just tell the play what spells not to pick. It is better than negating his action IMO.


Ravingdork wrote:
Why would it fall?

In this particular case, because it previously had been climbing up a fairly sheer pit/well/shaft, something that was easy for its previous form and not so much for Peter Cottontail.

Shadow Lodge

Muja wrote:
While I enjoy high level play I have always earned my levels. I've seen many people ask about building a caster starting at 7th or higher and I just don't understand it.

What do you do if you join an in-progress campaign? Either because a previous character died, or because you as the player join? Are you just a useless dead-weight character that lags 5+ levels behind the rest of the party for the entire campaign?


Ravingdork wrote:
That is seriously discouraging. Why play the game like that when I can just sit and listen to the GM tell his story?

It isn't a regular thing, but it does happen. But then, the players I game with get upset when an encounter is ended before they get to participate. Some of it is influenced by that.


Muja wrote:
The caster can also spend 2 feats to get Eldritch Heritage and get the elemental arcana which allows them to change the energy type of their offensive spells into their element. With the appropriate skills you can figure out if monsters are immune to fire and convert your fireball into an frostball or scorching ray into Earth Ray! (How would that work?)

You don't get bloodline arcana's with the Eldritch Heritage feat, just the leveled powers. Not sure if the power your refering to is one or the other, but just thought I would point out that the feat may not do what your thinking it does.


The damage type swapper is the first level power, not the arcana IIRC.


Ravingdork wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

The downfall of evocation for me is how much resistance someone can get from a 2nd level spell, Resist Energy. By 11th level it pretty much negates the majority of damage from most energy based spells. At the end of Rise of the Runelords, I was playing a paladin who was caster level 11, he was hit by a meteor swarm and took no damage.

level 2 Abjuration > level 9 evocation

Then you or your GM made a mistake. Meteor Swarm has changed significantly since previous editions. Among other things, you add the damage from all the spheres and bursts AND THEN apply resistance. There's no way you could have take 0 damage unless you passed ALL of your saves AND the caster rolled near minimum damage.

Source?

Because you subtract energy resistance each time you are hit not at the end only. So his GM was correct.


FallingIcicle wrote:
It seems that alot of people here hate damage-dealing spells.

IMO it depends on how 'optimise minded' your gaming group is. In most casual play style groups, blasting is just dandy.

It is only when you get into the more 'hardcore', optimising player base that it starts to fall behind versus more focused builds.

In the end, as always, if your group is having fun with it and it seems balanced to you, DO IT. The point of RPG's varies from player to player and group to group but I think the one common point is it is a way to have fun with your friends.

Starbuck_II wrote:

Source?

Because you subtract energy resistance each time you are hit not at the end only. So his GM was correct.

The spell itself lists this exeption. It is ONE spell effect for the purposes of ER.

Grand Lodge

Jason Ellis 350 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I have a reason to believe my GM fudges the enemy's saves in their favor from time to time.
I have yet to find a GM who does not.

*raises hand*


WPharolin wrote:


Emphasis mine. He means what he says he means. I don't doubt that he was able to make a high damage blaster. I'm more curious about how he got around immunity and second level abjurations spells.

Dispel Magic? Use a different energy type? Use a blast with untyped damage (magic missile, horrid wilting, disintegrate, etc)?

If your blaster has nothing but fire spells at his disposal, he deserves what he gets.

Liberty's Edge

Ravingdork wrote:

To those saying fighters do more damage, I must rebut:

That is only true at lower levels. I've created blaster sorcerers that can (several times a day) deal 200+ damage to MULTIPLE targets in a single round.

Not even 20th-level fighter archers can top that.

Post the build or it's BS.

Liberty's Edge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Jason Ellis 350 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I have a reason to believe my GM fudges the enemy's saves in their favor from time to time.
I have yet to find a GM who does not.
*raises hand*

*Raises another hand*


ciretose wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

To those saying fighters do more damage, I must rebut:

That is only true at lower levels. I've created blaster sorcerers that can (several times a day) deal 200+ damage to MULTIPLE targets in a single round.

Not even 20th-level fighter archers can top that.

Post the build or it's BS.

It's really not that hard to do. An empowered chain lightning alone does an average of 105 damage as an 8th level spell, a maximized chain lightning does 120 damage as a 9th level spell. Then add a Quickened Spell to that. It gets even easier if you use metamagic rods since they let you exceed the spell level cap.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ciretose wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

To those saying fighters do more damage, I must rebut:

That is only true at lower levels. I've created blaster sorcerers that can (several times a day) deal 200+ damage to MULTIPLE targets in a single round.

Not even 20th-level fighter archers can top that.

Post the build or it's BS.

*Raps knuckles on ciretose's forehead*

In a professor'ly sounding voice: "Earth to ciretose! Are you even paying attention?"


Ravingdork wrote:

I have a reason to believe my GM fudges the enemy's saves in their favor from time to time.

I have yet to find a GM who does not.

*raises hand*

*Raises another hand*

*Raises both hands*

But yeah, direct magical damage is great if you use strategic thinking. Fireball isn't for one individual opponent with a good reflex save, evasion and fire resistance. Use that 28 intelligence your character has and use the right tool for the job.

EDIT:
Kthulhu, that is why you don't use a single opponent who gets taken out with one failed save as the BBEG. If something happened where the players one-shoted the BBEG, I would stop the game for a second, tell them that was cool, but let's do this combat anyway. If they win, they get 2X treasure and XP. (Also, I tell my players not to build characters around action-denial and one-shoting)

Shadow Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:
Jason Ellis 350 wrote:
I have yet to find a GM who does not.
That is seriously discouraging. Why play a game like that when I can just sit and listen to the GM tell his story? If the player's decisions don't matter, than it's essentially the same thing.

Whereas I would find it pretty g!#$@%n anti-climactic to finally get to the campaign's BBEG and have him one-shotted. To the point where I'd probably talk to the GM afterwords and ask him why he didn't fudge the dice some.

Liberty's Edge

Ravingdork wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

To those saying fighters do more damage, I must rebut:

That is only true at lower levels. I've created blaster sorcerers that can (several times a day) deal 200+ damage to MULTIPLE targets in a single round.

Not even 20th-level fighter archers can top that.

Post the build or it's BS.

*Raps knuckles on ciretose's forehead*

In a professor'ly sounding voice: "Earth to ciretose! Are you even paying attention?"

Huh.

Metamagic feats are more broken than I thought.

Devs should probably do something about that, I never realized they could stack like that.

Grand Lodge

Kthulhu wrote:
Whereas I would find it pretty g++&+#n anti-climactic to finally get to the campaign's BBEG and have him one-shotted. To the point where I'd probably talk to the GM afterwords and ask him why he didn't fudge the dice some.

And I'd tell you that I forgot to give him a feat/magic item/class ability that grants re-rolls like all my other BBEGs, and apologize for ruining your fun.


Ok, quick question. If I wanted to build a powerful, Non-elemental focused (ie. not stuck to one element) Blaster, what would I do?


DSRMT wrote:
Ok, quick question. If I wanted to build a powerful, Non-elemental focused (ie. not stuck to one element) Blaster, what would I do?

Step 1) Accept that you're going to suffer on the raw damage potential somewhat. This is simply an inescapable fact of the way the high damage blaster builds work... there's more material supporting specific elemental damage than generic damage. (ie, bloodline arcana and the like)

Step 2) Orc Bloodline and most of the things we talked about earlier. Pick up an elemental bloodline for cross-blooded if you want, which will let you alter all your spells into a specific energy type. Fireballs can now become acidballs, if you pick right.

Step 3) Gain access to the metamagic feat Elemental Spell for the remaining elements that aren't associated with your cross-blooded type. You can either pick them us as feats (3, or 2 if you decide to ignore buying fire given how many spells start off dealing that type of damage), or as rods.

Then work from there.

Now, if the question is how does one build a blaster who doesn't rely on elemental damage at all (instead using un-typed and such)... things get harder.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

I've played a blaster for quite a long time (over a decade), and I have to speak up for them when given the chance. My character isn't a blaster because it's the most optimal, there are more direct routes to small party superiority. He's built for large scale military engagements, he's a General, he's the bastard lovechild of General Sherman and General Patton. He's a devotee of a literal scorched earth policy, a student of siege weaponry, design, engineering and also the diplomat when things get down to the peace table, but Paladine help you if you meet him on a battlefield.

Most of the game is not played on large scale battlefields and part of the interesting challenge of playing a character like this is adapting what he knows works well against a tightly packed column of soldiers versus a field of scattered skeletons and zombies. His typical armaments are not what you'd probably find useful against a host of demons (fire and electricity) but that doesn't mean he's useless, scrolls are a valuable commodity, in pathfinder I can even memorize spells from his opposed schools.

He's turned the tide more than once with a pair of fireballs (quickened and normal) or a well placed wall of fire and haste is certainly one of his more used spells. He's not 'optimal' as defined by others, but I've had more fun than I would have playing a different character.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ciretose wrote:

Huh.

Metamagic feats are more broken than I thought.

Devs should probably do something about that, I never realized they could stack like that.

Broken? What do you mean? If they didn't stack like that, then all these rumors about blasters being the suxx0r would be absolutely true.

If anything, it makes blasters a balanced option.

Liberty's Edge

Ravingdork wrote:
ciretose wrote:

Huh.

Metamagic feats are more broken than I thought.

Devs should probably do something about that, I never realized they could stack like that.

Broken? What do you mean? If they didn't stack like that, then all these rumors about blasters being the suxx0r would be absolutely true.

If anything, it makes blasters a balanced option.

Balanced relative to?

The SoS casters are over-rated. They need a lot of protection to be effective since if the spell fails, they are often hosed.

The law of unintended consequences is at play with metamagics, particularly with rods.


ciretose wrote:


Balanced relative to?

The SoS casters are over-rated. They need a lot of protection to be effective since if the spell fails, they are often hosed.

The law of unintended consequences is at play with metamagics, particularly with rods.

On the contrary, I think metamagic rods are working exactly as intended. Normally, metamagics are a relatively sub-par option since the higher level spells that are available are almost always superior to a lower level spell enhanced with a metamagic. Compare Chain Lightning to a Maximized Lightning Bolt, for example. The former is clearly superior to the latter, despite both using the same spell slot. I never, ever take metamagic feats, save occasionally Extend spell, on a wizard I play for this very reason. I'm almost always better off just preparing a higher level spell than a metamagic-enhanced one.

What metamagic rods let you do, 3 times a day, is buff a spell with a single metamagic without using a higher level slot. In all my years of playing this game, I've never once encountered a situation in which metamagic rods broke the game, or anything remotely close to it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ciretose wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
ciretose wrote:

Huh.

Metamagic feats are more broken than I thought.

Devs should probably do something about that, I never realized they could stack like that.

Broken? What do you mean? If they didn't stack like that, then all these rumors about blasters being the suxx0r would be absolutely true.

If anything, it makes blasters a balanced option.

Balanced relative to?

The SoS casters are over-rated. They need a lot of protection to be effective since if the spell fails, they are often hosed.

The law of unintended consequences is at play with metamagics, particularly with rods.

Relative to fighter archers, charging cavaliers/paladins, pouncing barbarians, and god wizards.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Hmm, think the forum monster ate my post. Here's try number 2.

I've played a blaster for quite a long time (over a decade), and I have to speak up for them when given the chance. My character isn't a blaster because it's the most optimal, there are more direct routes to small party superiority. He's built for large scale military engagements, he's a General, he's the bastard lovechild of General Sherman and General Patton. He's a devotee of a literal scorched earth policy, a student of siege weaponry, design, engineering and also the diplomat when things get down to the peace table, but Paladine help you if you meet him on a battlefield.

Most of the game is not played on large scale battlefields and part of the interesting challenge of playing a character like this is adapting what he knows works well against a tightly packed column of soldiers versus a field of scattered skeletons and zombies. His typical armaments are not what you'd probably find useful against a host of demons (fire and electricity) but that doesn't mean he's useless, scrolls are a valuable commodity, in pathfinder I can even memorize spells from his opposed schools.

He's turned the tide more than once with a pair of fireballs (quickened and normal) or a well placed wall of fire and haste is certainly one of his more used spells. He's not 'optimal' as defined by others, but I've had more fun than I would have playing a different character.

Short version: It's alot of fun. :)


Atarlost wrote:
The damage type swapper is the first level power, not the arcana IIRC.

it's the arcana

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