Hi. I have a doubt. One of my player ask me if it is possible to prepare a charge with the ready action.
If the PC/NPC doesn't move any distance during the round when he take the "ready charge", can he prepare a "partial charge"?
PF 198 "...If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed..."
Can you ready an action to charge? (Core Rulebook, pages 198 and 203)
No. The rules for a charge state that you can take a charge action as a standard action if you are "restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn". Although the ready action text states that you can take a standard action, it does not meet the requirements of the text in the charge action.
—Jason Bulmahn, 06/17/11
edit: this thread is rather difficult to open for some reason. Maybe the boards will work it out later...
|
I thought the whole point of the line 'if you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn', was referring to exactly that situation. And was worded that way, precisely because it would then allow a readied partial charge.
That's how I've run it for ten years, and I see no reason to alter that, regardless of the quote.
Indeed, I find it rather bizarre that a developer believes a fully able-bodied and cognisant PC should be less able to intercept than a zombie (who would be able to prepare a partial charge, under the conditions given in that FAQ).
Seems like extra-fertile ground for a house-rule to me.
Indeed, I find it rather bizarre that a developer believes a fully able-bodied and cognisant PC should be less able to intercept than a zombie (who would be able to prepare a partial charge, under the conditions given in that FAQ).
My guess as to the intent would be that a zombie could not ready a charge either. A zombie could charge, the able-bodied PC could charge. Neither could ready a charge.
The FAQ entries seem to be fairly 'off-the-cuff' statements of intent, rather than clarifying technical rules language. In other words, he answered the question "Can I ready a charge?" with "No." instead of addressing/changing the rules in a way that makes them clear. The FAQ (and dev message board posts) are frequently common-sense lets get on with the game style rulings, and not so much errata style fixes.
(Standard disclaimer: I'm in no way ungrateful for the developer presence, and do not mean to discredit their efforts at helping us run our games better. I greatly appreciate their input.)
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Has no one noticed that the original text says you can partial-charge if you're restricted to a standard action on your turn? If "your turn" has no such restriction, then you can't charge as a standard action.
Simply reading carefully and thoroughly will show that the FAQ merely clarifies what's already capable of being extrapolated from the RAW.
Hi. I have a doubt. One of my player ask me if it is possible to prepare a charge with the ready action.
If the PC/NPC doesn't move any distance during the round when he take the "ready charge", can he prepare a "partial charge"?
PF 198 "...If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed..."
Actually, you can ready a charge. It just requires a few feats.
See Rhino Charge
|
|
Indeed.
I think the response from JB is a knee-jerk one, that hasn't been fully thought-through.
No offence to the guy, he's a friendly chap I have good relations with, but there is a tendency among D20 developers (whether at WotC, Paizo or 3PP), when considering actions with a mundane power source, to err on the side of conservatism, but when it comes to the supernatural, to err on the side of the most liberal interpretation.
Player: 'Can I use Vital Strike on a charge? An extra die of damage would be useful.'
Dev: <pained face, sharp intake of breath> "That's probably too good".
Player: 'I know Empower Spell clearly says to increase the variable parameters of a spell, but can we pretend I never saw that, and increase all the static parameters as well?'
Dev: "Sure, go ahead. While you're at it, draw a line through Extend Spell, Widen Spell, Enlarge Spell, since you just effectively rolled them all into one feat, and made them obsolete. Don't forget to increase the spell's effective level by half, so the save DC goes up."
Hi. I have a doubt. One of my player ask me if it is possible to prepare a charge with the ready action.
If the PC/NPC doesn't move any distance during the round when he take the "ready charge", can he prepare a "partial charge"?
PF 198 "...If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed..."
Actually, you can ready a charge. It just requires a few feats.
See Rhino Charge
And as a consequence of this you can now effectively charge around corners.
I move (a move action) west 30 feet. I ready an action (a standard action) to attack when there is an enemy within 30 feet of me. (enemy is 20 feet north of current location.) Oh look, my readied action is activated. I charge north 20 feet....
I'll be honest I house-ruled 'partial charges' ages ago so that you can ready a charge if you limit yourself to taking a standard action. I don't see too much potential for abuse and how many times have we seen in a movie or read in a novel of the hero waiting for the enemy's charge to come close then charge out to meet them.
Three feats seems way too high a price for this.
|
|
But you are not restricted. You in fact have a full action. You are using the Ready Action action. In this case you get a standard action at some other time that you stipulate.
The restricted action part of charge is for if it is a surprise round or you have a condition which limits you to a standard action.
So, what you are saying is;
you increase your ability to intercept an opponent, by casting slow on yourself?
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Indeed.
I think the response from JB is a knee-jerk one, that hasn't been fully thought-through.
Wouldn't it be more fair to say that JB's response is simply an explanation of what the rules currently say, and then apply your critique to the rules themselves?
Three feats seems way too high a price for this.
I don't disagree. But I was merely pointing out the only by-the-rules option for this.
|
|
Wouldn't it be more fair to say that JB's response is simply an explanation of what the rules currently say, and then apply your critique to the rules themselves?
Well, the rules themselves could certainly do with a revision, not least, in the fact that the partial charge rules are buried far away from where they would intuitively belong.
I had to dig them up for a player this weekend, at a PFSoc game. (They're to the upper right of the picture of the Grey Maiden.)Is there a reason the rules on declaring a charge aren't in the movement section of the combat rules?
As to whether the rules actually disallow readied partial charges; that's open to debate.
After reflecting on this, since my first post, I believe that a person who has readied an action has restricted themselves to making, at most, a standard action, when they next act.
By that definition, they would still qualify for a readied partial charge, under JB's ruling.
So, maybe it isn't as bad as I first thought?
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
As to whether the rules actually disallow readied partial charges; that's open to debate.
After reflecting on this, since my first post, I believe that a person who has readied an action has restricted themselves to making, at most, a standard action, when they next act.
By that definition, they would still qualify for a readied partial charge, under JB's ruling.
That's still ignoring a point I made in a previous post.
Wouldn't it be more fair to say that JB's response is simply an explanation of what the rules currently say, and then apply your critique to the rules themselves?Indeed.
I think the response from JB is a knee-jerk one, that hasn't been fully thought-through.
I think it is unfair to call it a knee-jerk response but rather his answer could be more clearly written. We had this same argument shortly after the FAQ was published.
No, seems pretty definitive. It seems like Jason is saying you can never ready an action to charge. Whether it is the surprise round or you're a zombie or whatever. His explanation, doesn't address this directly and in fact brings up the poorly worded section of 'charge' that most people use to justify readying a charge.
I will admit it is nearly impossible to write something so there is no chance that it can be misinterpreted, but what's the point of sticking with the exact wording of the initial post if there is still some reasonable doubt as to what the answer is.
I know they don't have time to keep revisiting the same questions, but since presumably the developers have reached a consensus of what the correct answer is (likely the most time consuming aspect), rewording the explanation doesn't seem like a major change.
|
But you are not restricted. You in fact have a full action. You are using the Ready Action action. In this case you get a standard action at some other time that you stipulate.
The restricted action part of charge is for if it is a surprise round or you have a condition which limits you to a standard action.
So, what you are saying is;
you increase your ability to intercept an opponent, by casting slow on yourself?
There is no increase in mobility. You can charge a single move length if you are limited to a standard action (slow, surprise, zombie). You can charge a double move length if you have a full round action. You never have an option to ready a charge. Slowing doesn't prohibit you from charging, it merely limits your distance. But, slow doesn't then permit you to ready a charge. It isn't that the charge has become a standard action, rather, you are granted an exception to conduct a limited form of the full round action.
Following the FAQ on this I believe the answer is simple:
For Pathfinder Society play it is not possible to ready a charge.
For other games it is (as per everything else) up to the GM to make a House Rule, if required. (But expect the bad guys to use it as well).
Following the FAQ on this I believe the answer is simple:
For Pathfinder Society play it is not possible to ready a charge.For other games it is (as per everything else) up to the GM to make a House Rule, if required. (But expect the bad guys to use it as well).
Close....
For Pathfinder Society play it is not possible to ready a charge without the use of feats.
Actually, you're not. Since readying a standard action is a itself a standard action, you can move then ready an action. You merely delay finishing your actions for that round until the conditions are met.
I'm glad someone else can see it.Actually, you're not. Since readying a standard action is a itself a standard action, you can move then ready an action. You merely delay finishing your actions for that round until the conditions are met.
Wow, I'm pretty sure that makes it obvious why it is disallowed. Readying an action to charge could allow you to get a x3 move charge, if you simply move, and then ready to charge with some cheezy conditions like "as soon as another player begins to act". It would also let you essentially charge around corners.
Wow, I'm pretty sure that makes it obvious why it is disallowed. Readying an action to charge could allow you to get a x3 move charge, if you simply move, and then ready to charge with some cheezy conditions like "as soon as another player begins to act". It would also let you essentially charge around corners.
I'm sure that's why Rhino Charge only allows you to move up to your speed, not double your speed.
You may ready a charge, though you may only move up to your speed on the charge.|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Wow, I'm pretty sure that makes it obvious why it is disallowed. Readying an action to charge could allow you to get a x3 move charge, if you simply move, and then ready to charge with some cheezy conditions like "as soon as another player begins to act". It would also let you essentially charge around corners.
To be clear, no one's contending that if you *could* ready a charge you'd still get the double movement. But yes, the charging around corners bit is significant.
Oh right "partial" charge. Still though, if you could ready a charge, it would always be better than doing a normal charge, wouldn't it?
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Oh right "partial" charge. Still though, if you could ready a charge, it would always be better than doing a normal charge, wouldn't it?
Unless you had some extra caveat, yes.
Personally, I don't think it would be broken to be able to sacrifice your normal movement and 5' step (in addition to spending your standard action) to ready a "partial charge" and would happily houserule that in or vote for it as a change if there were to be a 2nd Edition of Pathfinder. But as it stands now, no such option exists in the rules.
|
|
Wow, I'm pretty sure that makes it obvious why it is disallowed. Readying an action to charge could allow you to get a x3 move charge
Not really, since those in favour are not asking for the ability to ready a 'double-move-and-attack' charge action, but the 'single-move-and-attack' partial charge action. I.E.;
Move
Ready
Move
Attack
As opposed to;
Move+Move
Attack
Same total potential distance, same number of attacks at the end.
Pros: the character can react to events unfolding around them.
Cons: the character may waste their second action, if no-one comes near.
It would also let you essentially charge around corners.
And the problem with that is....what, exactly?
It would also let you essentially charge around corners.And the problem with that is....what, exactly?
Charge requires a straight line. To get the advantage of moving both twice your speed and attacking you have to do it in a straight line, essentially running.
It would be very easy to abuse this so that you could charge around an obstacle by waiting. It seems silly that by going slower you can do something you can't do when you go as fast as you can.
|
|
There's lots of things that benefit from going a little slower.
But we probably shouldn't go there.
Sure, there are benefits to splitting a charge into two parts.
The ability to charge someone round a corner being one.
But then, I'm one who never understood why someone should be allowed to opt out of melee, due to an abstract restriction that would not prevent the action in real life.
Not to mention, the way most battlements represent insubstantial objects as filling whole 5-foot cubes.
And the choice, of where to set the intersections of the grid being totally arbitary.
There are drawbacks to splitting the charge, too.
Your intended route could become blocked.
You could waste your turn waiting an opening that never comes.
An opponent could take a delayed action to shoot you in the open.
In the end, for me, verisimilitude trumps abstraction, especially where verisimilitude costs nothing and adds no complication, and where the abstraction causes frustration and dissatisfaction.