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Hello Alll,
I know this is covered in other areas, however I have a situation I need some advice on.
Recently my group started playing Carrion Crown which requires a certain amount of mystery to work. Unfortunately it appears that the first and second adventures are easy found on torrent sites, and he has taken it upon himself to download and read the first adventure. I have no proof of this, but its bleedingly obvious.
Anyone else experienced this sort of thing before? Any suggestions? Don't suggest me asking because he denies it.
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What makes it obvious?
Is he built to take advantage of enemy weaknesses? Change the weaknesses.
Does he seem to know exactly where to go? Alter the map, change the names.
You're the DM. Put something in that ISN'T in the module to surprise him. If he calls you on it, tell him "I'm the DM, the module is just a guideline to me". Then call him on his cheating.
But also ask yourself if his knowing everything is hurting the experience. Are the other players having less fun because they don't get to solve the mystery? Or would they be bored and frustrated fumbling around for the answer?
You're the DM. Put something in that ISN'T in the module to surprise him. If he calls you on it, tell him "I'm the DM, the module is just a guideline to me". Then call him on his cheating.
+1
If you change the module/adventure, then he won't know what's going on anymore. If he calls you out on changing the adventure, ask him how he would know that you've done so.
One of two things will happen: A) he'll realize he has been caught and keep quiet or B) he'll make a total ass of himself in front of everyone by crying foul when he should have no clue otherwise.
Use some linear thinking when you rearrange the material. You know what the material says, and by extension you know exactly what he will attempt to do based on the notes in the module. Blind-side him. You're one step ahead and you're dealing the cards.
Yar.
Cheating players can be tough, especially if they're your friends and you are not planning on giving anyone the boot.
(I will be using the term "you" ambiguously)
You should always set a precedent. In this game we want to develop our characters from their beginnings as newbies to eventual superheroes, thus lets try and keep OoC knowledge and IC knowledge separate. Sure, you may have memorized the bestiary, but does your character actually know that? etc.
Let it be known that breaking this bond of trust in order to "do better at the game" is ruining your fun. You enjoy the mystery and the discovery of new things, and you enjoy the RP aspect as well. When you act like your character is your personal avatar instead of a unique personality, I find it destroys my own immersion in the game and any semblance of verisimilitude I once may have had.
Let is also be known that as the GM, you are a player as well, and want to have fun playing this game. Instead of doing it my bashing bad guys to pieces, you do it though setting the scene for adventure, interacting with the other characters through NPCs, villains, and even the environment, and you do it through revelations. That is, something important in the game is a secret, and when the time is right, being able to unveil the secret and witnessing everyone's response is a big part of your fun. Please don't take this away from the GM, as you may as well not even bother to play/GM if you’re expected to be a computer program instead of a human being playing the game with you.
As the GM, you have full control of the NPCs and layout of areas and so forth. Change things. Add things. Take some things away. If a dungeon passage turn left at a sharp angle, instead have it gently curve right and angle up? Take some time and completely redraw an area. Rename NPC's, tweak personalities, alter their race and sex, etc. Is there an event that is crucial to the plot? Read ahead and see if it is a viable option to change that event while still keeping the overall plot/story intact.
(note: such changes can also be a way to "call his bluff". If he indeed has read the adventure and knows who is who and what is what, and he makes his voice heard in regards to your (GM's right to do so) changes... how does he know how it should be done? Some would even go as far as to ask them to GM instead, as they obviously know how it should be better than you.)
Also: don't let cheating ruin anyone's fun. Not just your own, but your players as well. Arguments and confrontations in the middle of the game (that aren't RP) tend to destroy games. Do what you can to do avoid OoC confrontations, but if they must happen, do what you can to have them happen outside of the game.
Good luck.
~P
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I tried to mix this up, such as adding a red herring/subplot and last night he openly identified it as such. I don't want to confront him in the middle of a game, and I enjoy his role playing.
I just don't understand the point of knowing the adventure ahead of playing it and am looking ways to combat it.
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I tried to mix this up, such as adding a red herring/subplot and last night he openly identified it as such.
Good. Keep it up.
I don't want to confront him in the middle of a game, and I enjoy his role playing.
Let the other players do it for you then. Even the most tolerant person is going to say something when he's saying "that's not in the module" every session.
I tried to mix this up, such as adding a red herring/subplot and last night he openly identified it as such.Good. Keep it up.
Let the other players do it for you then. Even the most tolerant person is going to say something when he's saying "that's not in the module" every session.I don't want to confront him in the middle of a game, and I enjoy his role playing.
+1
Yep if he keeps calling out that your doing it wrong people will notice.
Had a player who would qoute to the party exactly when monsters should go unconcious based on damage so i started changing feats and items around after 3 different monsters who didn't die "on time" one of my other players looked at him and asked how much hp damage will it take to get him to just attack it again and stop worrying about it.
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I would talk to your player openly and honestly about whether he has read the adventure. If he has ask him to keep his knowledge to himself and let the other players try to solve the mystery elements.
Ask him to read no more of the AP until AFTER you've finished running it.
It's rude to have read an adventure before hand, but sometimes it's unavoidable.
Keep changing little things up here and there to keep the surprises fresh.
That's why I hate non-GMs using laptops, I was playing in a group and every time we fought a monster one guy would open the PFsrd or the Bestiary and look up the stats. GM never called him on it, even when i was pointing out the monsters stats being blown p on a 72" screen.....
Again my philosophy on cheaters lately is' if you have to cheat to have fun so be it. And I say that at least once to every person when I catch them cheating, then I just let them cheat as need be.
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My opinion on cheating is if you have to cheat to have fun go play your video games by yourself. if your killing the rest of the parties fun then you need to go period. Though most cheating on the player end stems IMHO from the player vs the GM mentality which i have never understood. (though i had a very wonderful gm who taught me.)
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This is what I would do. I personally hate it when players read something they aren't supposed to. As a player, I get frustrated when I try to think of how my character would react, not knowing what I know.
If I was absolutely sure that he had read the AP, I would sit him aside and ask him how many of the modules he had read. If he had only read the first module, I would make him sit out the first book, and introduce his character later on. If he had read the whole AP, I would kick him out of the game, politely. I would also suggest that he not read any APs in the future if he wants to continue as a player in my game.
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I would talk to your player openly and honestly about whether he has read the adventure. If he has ask him to keep his knowledge to himself and let the other players try to solve the mystery elements.
Ask him to read no more of the AP until AFTER you've finished running it.
It's rude to have read an adventure before hand, but sometimes it's unavoidable.
Keep changing little things up here and there to keep the surprises fresh.
This is good advice, if you aren't wanting to kick him out.
I DM and play and I buy and read lots of stuff. Usually if I end up playing something with which I'm familiar I'll try to 1) let the DM know that I've read it and how familiar I am with it and, 2) play a character that's not so very interested in figuring out the mysteries of the adventure in question (e.g. a barb that just wants to smash things).
I don't want to spoil play for either myself, the DM, or the other players so I do my level best not to bring player knowledge to bear in the game, whether it's specific knowledge about an adventure or information about monsters or "big mysteries" of a campaign setting.
As a DM I don't much care if someone has the bestiary memorized or has read through an adventure...as long as they can do that too. If they start spoiling things or being sneaky about reading and using player knowledge in a way that hurts the game I'll have a conversation with them about it.
M
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Have no mercy.
If he is going to cheat then make sure he suffers for it. He somehow has knowledge of the future so he is the most dangerous threat. So kill him. have your monsters go after him constantly.. change their stats, change their hp change their DCs.
The most i get these days when DMing is people sneaking looks at the monsters from a pdf.. and that drives me crazy.
Players forget that you have to fun to. So as he is wrecking yours and maybe your players fun just wreck his till he gets the point?
If you want to be abit kinder then you could always do something like i do for my players.
I set up a sheet of minor feats/abilities from the books that people usually don't bother taking (and custom items)and then added them to a list where people could purchase them for RP points. I assign RP points to players (i keep the number in a notepad) on how well they RP and i take them away for bad rp or cheating.
Doing something like that could encourage him not to cheat as he will be missing out on stuff your other players get. *shrugs* but i still think show no mercy :)
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I tried to mix this up, such as adding a red herring/subplot and last night he openly identified it as such. I don't want to confront him in the middle of a game, and I enjoy his role playing.
I just don't understand the point of knowing the adventure ahead of playing it and am looking ways to combat it.
I havn't finished reading the module part of CC1 yet, but there are enough moving parts in the part I HAVE read that it should be fairy easy to alter the identity/location of some people or challenges fairly easily. Make some of the red herrings real in your version of the script. I've seen the same play/script run buy two different theatre groups in one week, and they are nothing alike. Just because something is written down doesn't mean that how it has to be in your version of the world.
I like all of the advice given and thought I'd throw one more in:
If the player is defeating encounters using knowledge gained from reading the adventure I wouldn't consider that defeating the encounter - so no xp for that player for that encounter.
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I can't help but imagine....
Hey, player-in-question. If you're reading this, shame on you.
OP, just keep remixing. Keep track of what you chnage. Throw in a few red herrings, yes, but also throw in stuff that's solid. And make stuff that was solid as written into red herrings.
Improvise if need be, but make sure it's fair and that you remember where your campaign and the text have diverged.
And thanks for not spoiling. :)
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Thanks to all of the posters above. I was deliberately vague in case there are others that are playing or want to play - because if I had, that would be a little hypocritical (after all that's what I'm complaining about).
Basically he identified two things (one of which was something that I threw in).
The one I threw in, the other players were none the wiser and they were ummm-ing and ahhh-ing on which thread to investigate first. It was on equal par with a number of other threads that were going on, and during a player round table discussion, "The player" said - and I quote:
"I think you're mistaken. Its obviously a red herring".
Now I'm not going to blow my own trumpet, but everyone else thought it was part of the overall plot. But not this guy. Either he's telepathic, or I'm a fairly transparent GM and the other players are fools, or this guy is reading the module.
The second was a connection that as I was about to announce something, he said, "Let me interrupt you. I bet its a case of..." And it was, but there was no way I don't think a parallel could have been drawn without knowing the story already.
Anyway, thank you to all who have offered some advice. The hardest part about changing the adventure is that it takes time (something I don't have a lot of - and that player knows it), so apart from a few small things, I rarely change the adventure.
What sucks is that he's also playing in a Legacy of Fire game and I can now see that he's been doing there there as well. AAARRRGGGHHH!!!
Thanks to all of the posters above. I was deliberately vague in case there are others that are playing or want to play - because if I had, that would be a little hypocritical (after all that's what I'm complaining about).
Basically he identified two things (one of which was something that I threw in).
The one I threw in, the other players were none the wiser and they were ummm-ing and ahhh-ing on which thread to investigate first. It was on equal par with a number of other threads that were going on, and during a player round table discussion, "The player" said - and I quote:
"I think you're mistaken. Its obviously a red herring".
Now I'm not going to blow my own trumpet, but everyone else thought it was part of the overall plot. But not this guy. Either he's telepathic, or I'm a fairly transparent GM and the other players are fools, or this guy is reading the module.
The second was a connection that as I was about to announce something, he said, "Let me interrupt you. I bet its a case of..." And it was, but there was no way I don't think a parallel could have been drawn without knowing the story already.
Anyway, thank you to all who have offered some advice. The hardest part about changing the adventure is that it takes time (something I don't have a lot of - and that player knows it), so apart from a few small things, I rarely change the adventure.
What sucks is that he's also playing in a Legacy of Fire game and I can now see that he's been doing there there as well. AAARRRGGGHHH!!!
Mining other adventures for adversaries and dungeons might save you some time. As for actual plothooks changing a random NPC's motivations might help. I would also call him out on it, but if you don't want to do so then others have given advice to help you out. I feel your pain though.
Mining other adventures for adversaries and dungeons might save you some time. As for actual plothooks changing a random NPC's motivations might help. I would also call him out on it, but if you don't want to do so then others have given advice to help you out. I feel your pain though.
Definitely pillage other sources. Also don't overlook the good stuff on the Internet. For example, there's this thread at ENWorld chock full of monsters and NPCs; not all of it's PF. There are also the various "labs" at d20PFSRD.com, such as this one.
If you'd like an NPC or what not retooled and you don't have time, you could ask someone else to do it for you. I could make the time to do that for an NPC or two. Shoot me an email if you want: mark at spesmagna dot com.
All of that aside, I'd be sorely tempted to just tell everyone that I couldn't GM the adventure anymore because at least one player was reading it on the sly.
:)
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If worse comes to worse, you can roll up a character, show up to the game, and when everyone sits down to look at you for what to do next, you look at HIM expectantly.
"Oh...? Oh no! No, I'm not running this game anymore. Ted is. Yeah, he's already more familiar with the game than I am, and I was supposed to be running it, so he's running now. Ask him what comes next."
Hey, if he wants to run the game, let him! It'll give you some time in front of the screen for a change.
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Well, there are things you *can* do to throw him off course.
Every module has certain hidden items in rooms, areas where an aware player can nab extra loot. Most cheaters are suckers for the hidden treasure. It's pretty easy to switch that magical sword into a cursed magical sword, or move it to a different room and replace it with a symbol of death where the sword would be spotted.
But it's pretty obvious he's gaming the system, and it's probably pretty obvious to him by now that you are aware of it. So, instead, simply start off the next session by mentioning how the earth has started shaking and dust is falling from the ceiling.
And next time he takes advantage of player knowledge, have him roll a reflex save to dodge the block of stone that just fell from the ceiling right over him. Or, if you're outside, reflex save versus a sudden caving in of the ground, dealing similar damage.
Once he realizes that he's rolling a save or taking damage when he blatantly uses player info about the module, he'll start toning it down until you don't notice it anymore.
If he argues with you about it, just tell him it's in the module. If he disagrees, point out that unless he read the module, he doesn't know that :p
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Hello Alll,
I know this is covered in other areas, however I have a situation I need some advice on.
Recently my group started playing Carrion Crown which requires a certain amount of mystery to work. Unfortunately it appears that the first and second adventures are easy found on torrent sites, and he has taken it upon himself to download and read the first adventure. I have no proof of this, but its bleedingly obvious.
Anyone else experienced this sort of thing before? Any suggestions? Don't suggest me asking because he denies it.
Set traps for him, using his knowledge against him. In a literal sense, move the traps, haunts, etc...do this as a test to see if he is actually reading ahead and try and catch him and confront him.
If he is doing this, it is going to be very problematic throughout the rest of the AP, since it is so "mystery" based and if you don't address it, it will ruin the game for everyone else at the table. Other AP's it wouldn't be as bad, this one...
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Don't just introduce red herrings, turn the stated adventure into the red herring and give them something else. Yes, it takes more design on your part, but if you aren't a slave to the adventure, you can quickly and easily punish someone for reading ahead by trapping things that someone who wasn't reading would never notice.
When I GM, I never have a side trek without everyone at the table. I always play everything in front of everyone. But I also make sure that metagaming is met with failure. A bit of narrative misdirection in one case or another can have great effects--if the PC acts on knowledge the PC doesn't know, they'll usually end up in a trap. If the PC doesn't act on the unknown, they're usually fine.
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Reaper Miniatures
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Most of the advice here is solid.
You seem to feel as if the player in question is doing this habitually, Legacy of Fire and Carrion Crown. There's no reason to suspect, then, that he's not going to continue to do this for every game you run from a module, or every game he plays in from a module.
I suggest you deliberately change a very significant event. I'm not going to spoiler things, but basically an event that is supposed to occur to one NPC occur to a different one, or a monster that is supposed to appear at a given time, be a much more powerful threat - for simplicity's sake, replace the monster with one of the 5 at the back that isn't actually ever used.
If the player in question reacts, you have him on cheating. He has given you proof that he knew the events well enough to recognize you changed them, and the other players did not - they believed the events you gave them.
Now that you have him on cheating, after the game, have a one-on-one. Tell him that you know he has read this AP, and you suspect, based on other evidence, that he may have been cheating in Legacy of Fire. You as GM will not tolerate pre-reading the AP, or modules. Ask him to agree to stop reading them, and to stop using knowledge he gained - he must acquiesce to his fellow players, and never solve the problems himself, for only then can you be sure he's not cheating further.
This is where it gets tricky for you. Me, I'd ask him to leave my game, and I would promise if he left now to simply tell the group he had "other commitments". If he refused to leave the game, then next session, I'd do something similar, but worse. I'd pull out the boss monster from the end of the module in a very not-supposed-to-be-there way, and kill of his character, then have the boss taunt the other players and run off.
Following that, expose the Player as a cheat in front of the group, and publicly demand his exit from my gaming table henceforth. He would no longer be welcome at my table, and I would make it very clear to his other friends - ie, the rest of the table, why.
You, of course, may not want to be that extreme, but at least the monster changes are ways to call him out, and
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Just to make things a little more complex...
I just wanted to add the possibility that one can look like they have read a module, when instead all they are doing is deducing the narrative demands of the module.
I've had this happen several times, one recently in a PFS game. When I am a player I'm always looking at the meta-level of the game, the narrative structure, and shaping my decisions based off of that. A lot of players don't seem to do that at all, instead staying in a roughly immersive state, and so they don't see how the published story is shunting them in one direction or another.
In the recent PFS game we had a little mystery to solve in the opening part of the module and once I saw enough of the pattern I announced (in character) what it is that we had to do. The GM asked if I had read the module, which I hadn't, but it just seemed obvious what had to happen. The GM had expected it would take us an hour to get through this section, instead it just took 10 minutes.
It may be that the OP's player did read the module, so being upfront it is important. The player might just be able to quickly pick up on the narrative tropes, spot them and then move along.
Putting aside overt cheating, one thing that would bug me as a GM is if a player was talking about the meta-game. That breaks immersion. If you have a bit of meta-game knowledge you want to use in your favor, at least translate it into an in-character dialogue.
I'm glad I don't play with anyone like you.
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I am not familiar with the Carrion Crown AP so I don't know that this is possible, but one big way you can totally mess up his prior knowledge is have a brand new (ie-not in the AP) NPC appear and be the driving force in what the characters do for a while. Whether its hiring the party, a sage that directs their searches, etc, make it someone unlike any in the AP, and do a little "side adventure" that does not appear to be a side adventure. Since this NPC is completely affecting everything they are doing, and its unknown, it should totally bewilder him. I know when I did something similar, my forward reading player eventually gave up.
The real problem that I see is that he is going to read ahead every time you run published material . If he did it this time this blatantly, then he obviously doesn't see anything wrong with it, and chances are he will keep doing it, even if he learns to keep quiet. If you want to keep this player, you will likely have to publicly say you are running a homebrew, and then discreetly slip in published material amidst the homebrew stuff.
I can only agree with a lot of the other posters. I would recommend changing something around, as suggested, to expose him of knowing what he shouldn't (and playing on it too), and then confront him about it (in front of the entire group, if need be).
You're the DM. You control everything. Don't resort to passive-aggressive behaviour, though - be firm, tell him this is your game with your rules. You can't stop him from reading modules - but you can deny him a spot at your table.
If he is ruining it for you, is he worth having at the table?
The real problem that I see is that he is going to read ahead every time you run published material . If he did it this time this blatantly, then he obviously doesn't see anything wrong with it, and chances are he will keep doing it, even if he learns to keep quiet. If you want to keep this player, you will likely have to publicly say you are running a homebrew, and then discreetly slip in published material amidst the homebrew stuff.
I have a player in my group that I believe will attempt to look up anything mentioned as part of the game. While we're doing a published adventure right now, it's not RP heavy so I think he lost interest in knowing the specifics of it, but in the future I fully plan to avoid revealing what published material I'm running with him UNLESS I do decide to run an AP, because I think it's unfair to launch into an AP, which is a big story/plot commitment, without letting the players know that's what's going on, so they can plan to dedicate time to it until it's finished or request something shorter.
Then again, I love the Carrion Crown and, while I'm not running it right now, I'd love to run it multiple times, and attain mastery of gamemastering it. If I were in the situation of running it twice, I would allow the same players again, but probably swap plot elements around so it's not the same mysteries twice. The beast of Lepidstadt was guilty the first time? He's innocent the second time. The vampire murderer is a half-nosferatu dhampir rogue the first time? The second time it's a ghoul conspiracy to supplant vampire dominance. And so on, though these scenarios are based on the descriptions on the back of the products, not on the way the adventures themselves unfold, just to give examples.
My advice is to change NPC gender/name/occupation/meeting time, and the locations of encounters, so the player can't make heads or tails of the mystery by reading the material because all the roles are changed. That does make it harder to track though.
Once he has made it obvious to everyone that he's reading the material, then call him on it again sometime when you'll have some support in your accusation, so he can't worm his way out of it so easily.
Anyay, that's just some of my ideas.
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I have gone through this problem before.
1. Anything that needs a DC perception to find is relocated else where.
2. Monsters get substituted out as needed.
3. Energy types change from enemy spell casters (Fire to Cold, Acid to electricity.
4. Change a few things about the module to your own tastes.
5. Change monster tactics
Then when he screams foul ask him why he thinks that. Then counter about his player knowledge is messing things up so you needed to correct it.
I'm glad I don't play with anyone like you.Why? Am I doing something wrong?
Thats the textbook defination of metagaming man. Using knowledge you the player have even if its logical knowlege that your character doesn't.
I'm glad I don't play with anyone like you.Why? Am I doing something wrong?
As far as I'm concerned, yes. What you do sounds to me the same as watching a movie, seeing the chekov's gun and then skipping to the end and saying "Told ya so." THE END. What a great movie. As far as you know, everyone else at the table picked up on the narrative and decided NOT to use metagame knowledge to bypass it. And even if they didn't, that it is conceivable would be enough for me not to do it.
As far as I'm concerned, yes. What you do sounds to me the same as watching a movie, seeing the chekov's gun and then skipping to the end and saying "Told ya so." THE END. What a great movie. As far as you know, everyone else at the table picked up on the narrative and decided NOT to use metagame knowledge to bypass it. And even if they didn't, that it is conceivable would be enough for me not to do it.I'm glad I don't play with anyone like you.Why? Am I doing something wrong?
I have to agree that the way you are doing it Mok is wrong, I have always seen it as a player should avoid using metagame knowledge as best they can.
And on your question Davick, I would have to say ask him about it and if he denies it take his word for it, but continue adding in red herrings into the game and if he is the only one to question them ask for his reasoning. And if push comes to shove you could always try having another person in the group ask him about it without him being told you had anything to do with the questioning about it, if you are willing to let someone in the group (or if someone in the group knows your concerns about the player).
~Aod43254
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The way I see it, Mok did absolutely nothing "wrong". He read no modules in advance and deduced a puzzle.
He uses the same kind of reasoning that a player uses in order to pick up on an adventure hook. The same kind of reasoning that ultimately allows for non-sandbox modules to run.
As a community, I think we often undervalue the positive aspects of metagaming. The term itself is anathema and emotionally charged.
But responsibly (read: without cheating) steering oneself in a way that makes the game more engaging is a good thing right?
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Forget that it's D&D, forget that you are DM.
If you were playing chess with this person, and found they were moving the pieces around while your back was turned, what would you do? If you were playing monopoly, and realised that they were helping themselves to hotels while you wen to the kitchen, what would you do?
Oh, sure there are roles - DMs and Players. But meta that, D&D is a game that a group of friends - or at least acquaintances - plays together for fun. How does everyone feel about cheating? If the whole group is cool with it - are you?
Not running the game is always an option.
The way I see it, Mok did absolutely nothing "wrong". He read no modules in advance and deduced a puzzle.
He uses the same kind of reasoning that a player uses in order to pick up on an adventure hook.
The way i understood it though depending on his character it would have been something he wouldn't have known. What he did even made the GM suspicious and that means it wasn't well explained in character.
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Forget that it's D&D, forget that you are DM.
If you were playing chess with this person, and found they were moving the pieces around while your back was turned, what would you do? If you were playing monopoly, and realised that they were helping themselves to hotels while you wen to the kitchen, what would you do?
That would be relevant if the game were DM vs Players. Or if the players had told the DM they don't want fudging done in game.