So, why not make the "red herring" necessary to the plot, the guy who's "obviously behind it" having nothing to do with it, etc?
Basically, every time he guesses right in a circumstance where the facts don't require him to be right, he's absolutely wrong!
Great Idea. I had a player do this once, but I was another player, not the GM. The GM in question barely had time to run a published module, much less go changing things so it was really annoying when the truth was uncovered.
I know right! And I'm also glad I don't game with you.Sure is elitist in here.
Snarkiness aside, Talonhawke is asking the right question to Mok. If his character could reasonably have figured out a puzzle pretty quickly (based on his skills, stats and background) then it isn't metagaming at all. If he does it as the dumb as bricks barbarian, then you can call him on it. You jumped the gun on that judgement.
Also, waving around that phrase just makes you seem arrogant. Based on what I've seen, I'd game with Mok. He's reasonable and obviously spends time thinking about the method behind the madness. That's pretty rare. I'd also give Bryan Stiltz a spot at my table. He's amusing, which is a good way to start.
Instead of telling people they're doing it wrong and would be unworthy to game with such a lofty one as yourself, you might try being a little more personable. Most people would rather play with a nice metagamer than a jerk immersionist.
I never told anyone they were doing anything wrong. And I thought we had a nice discussion about the matter, and we both learned a lot about different types of players. Handy knowledge that is.
And while I'm glad we don't game together, I never made any comment about who he is a person. I have lots of friends I don't game with because we recognize our conflicting style. And really, I'm more glad that this game is so customizable and universal that people who play it completely differently can still enjoy it.
EDIT: Also, I bet I could be friends with Mok, if we knew each other.
My opinion is that typically the GM is the one spending hard earned money on the APs as well as valuable time.
It is common sense that a player shouldn't read the AP ahead of time.
I don't think asking him to stop will work. That being the case, the nex three or so months (in RL)are going to be frustrating for your other PCs as they work through the adventures he has already read.
cut the cord.
MEAN? yes
But as I said before: so is trivializing the time and effort put in by everyone else.
You can still be friends but keep games like this to a minimum or you will lose a friend permanently.
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So your plan is to reward the group for a player reading the module? This only seems like a punishment if the player in question is hyper competitive (which is a possibility).
I think that seems like a given. That he was pre-reading the module to give himself an edge. I never said it was a perfect solution, but the OP had already said he couldn't get him to admit it or stop and he didn't want to remove the player from the game, so I was offering my best idea.
One of the cardinal rules of storytelling is that every scene in a story ought to be contributing to the story.
Right here is the flaw in your play style. You are making the assumption that the PC knows he is the protagonist of a story, not just a person living his life. Sometimes things happen in life that have absolutely nothing to do with anything and are just odd occurrences.
I think the OP should elaborate a bit more.I'll give the four examples. This is from the Carrion Crown Adventure Path. If you are playing it, don't read this:
I agree with Wraithstrike - it's too contrived. Confront him about it, or remove him from the game, that's my only advice. If he doesn't change, he isn't worth the time or frustration.
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To the OP:
Personally, the next time he does one of these giveaways, I would flat out address him in game and say, the next time he acts off of information he read and should not have, he is out. That gives him a chance to either fess up, go into complete denial, or get a clue. Plus the other players get to directly address the situation (which they might want to do!) because the GM is willing to directly address the situation. Its pretty clear his knowledge is negatively affecting the game play and story unfoldment.
If you are not willing to (or able to for some social reason) address this directly, then I would suggest:
I would have the villians use the clues as written as a trap to frame the party. So leave clues that point in the normal way and also in the new way that the party "should" go, and if they follow the "as written" path of clues, they end up framed and in jail for murder, etc. I haven't read the AP, but Im sure there are legal forces that they could get caught up by in the course of investigating. After several times of this happening, either "The Reader" is going to get upset and call foul, or he will just stop.
I'll give the four examples. This is from the Carrion Crown Adventure Path. If you are playing it, don't read this:
Yep, he's read it, and what he's doing goes beyond simple metagaming. If it was a video game he'd be the guy with his laptop next him, GameFAQs open while he played. That's fine if he's the only one playing, but in your case he's not just screwing with your ability to tell the story, he's robbing your other players of the enjoyment of the mystery. No one else gets to figure it out because he already knows all the answers.
Talk to him. If it doesn't work, boot him.
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I was a player in another game system where we had an incident of a player cheating. Our GM identified the problem and asked the players that weren't involved in the cheating what should be done with a cheating player without providing specifics. Then she asked what the person that was cheating the same question. He was mature enough to admit what he had done right then and there. Since every one of the other players weren't willing to play with a cheating player she told him he wouldn't be welcome at the game after that.
It worked out for the players because they weren't given details and asked to make a decision without the influence of friendships that might have kept a player around otherwise. He ended up coming back to the game several months later and proved to be a much better player for it.
It might be a suitable approach for you if you think the player is mature enough to admit what he's doing and accept the consequences for his actions. Plus going into it you know what the other players think about the situation. Otherwise I'd change something major and then call him out when he says something. That way the players get to have their say there and then and you get to speak your peace. It will probably derail the session quite a bit and you're going to have to deal with that however you think is best.
I saw mentioned in here another player that has the same problem I have.
As a gamer for 25 years, its hard to come up with a plot I havent seen a dozen times. And even if I play my character as pure as possible, some of these plots require the character be played as a moron for the plot to work (What idiot, real world,(being a nobody) would fall for some very rich famous powerful politician telling them "here's the keys to my house, go check up on it. But dont tell anyone what your doing"?) Theres some things the game wants you to skill roll that only the lowest of stats would even begin to fall for.Also, yes, sometimes your "brilliant" plan just isnt that brilliant. (no offense, happens to me a fair bit) Either the clues get too well hidden or not well enough and an experienced player can see whats coming; just as in real life, you can see patterns form.
Os this guy a total noob? Then its probably reading the adventure. Is he a long-time gamer? Then it could just be that he knows most the tricks, and PF tends to repeat the same hooks.
I havent played or read the AP, so I dont know how possible it is for him to figure stuff out. I do know that perceptive people can connect dots real well; it happens in real life all the time.
The problem with that is that OP has mentioned the player in question just happened to know some well placed clues were red herring.
The OP even mentioned that the clues were good enough to cause the rest of the party to caught suspicion and intrigued them to know more, they surely had bitten the bait, even just enough to fool them until the next part of the AP, however, this "extremely clever" player then calls out at the gaming table:
"That's clearly just red herring"
Excuse me, but how can he/she be SO sure? This player was the only one not fooled by the other clue, recognizing the true lead from the AP, didn't even gave a second look to the other option. Apparently, this player was actually sure that it was, in fact, just red herring. This seems only reasonable if this player knows something the others don't.
And I know that players are different, in fact, in my gaming table, when I am not the GM(which has become more rare lately), I am usually the player that likes to follow leads and track clues and role play away every encounter, so I know the type, believe me. I know some players can be fooled by some things others don't, but to call it out loud so crassly, it really feels this player is metagaming in some way, and most likely, that he/she knows where the AP RAW is going.
My humble impressions on the matter mind you, I am not trying to be a agressive or pick fights, I am sorry if I offended you in any way, and if I did, I will take it back and try my best to express it in a more thorough and civilized manner.
@ OP: Either blindside this player using his/her knowledge against him/her(like others suggested, turn the AP into red herring and the red herring into the real thing, *twist*)
Or, if this player is mature and regards your well being, and as a friend IMHO by definition he/she should, then talk it out with the player in private, let it be known your discomfort about the player's behavior, and let it be known it won't be tolerated.
As far as I can understand it, first time you let it slide, second time you warn him/her, hopefully there is not a third time, because for me the third time means the NOOSE. IMHO, you are not a bad GM or a bad friend/person for asking politely, you are the one doing the work so everyone can have fun, his/her job is only to show up, play nicely and go along. If the player wants to add anything else that enhances the experience then that's gravy, but running the game puts a lot of requirements by default in the GM's hands, there should be some kind of consideration to this fact.
Sadly, in this situation the player is not going along, is purposely stacking the deck in his/her favor, which is unfair to everyone at the table and IMHO ruins the experience.
If the player and by extension the PC keeps coming up with The Answer out of the blue with little or no clues then (in Ustalav) he is obviously a WITCH and should be burned at the stake....
the PC not necessarily the player although that would work too
Have you red herring turn around and bite the group in the arse for not taking it seriously.
e.g.
Warn them about xxx that can be dealt with now before it becomes a larger problem.
if mr know it all claim another red herring let it slide
but a few session later have it become a larger problem, dump them with a boatload of trouble that is obviously could have been dealt with far more easily when it was smaller
the group will soon learn not to listen to the "oh its a red herring" and maybe he'll stop thinking he knows what coming.
Also
Identify some medium importance plot lines and basically turn them into red herrings. so when he leading the group down the path he known is the right one he's actually leading them into a red herring and missing the actual plot you've created above.
more work yes but if you do the work now and basically nerf his advantage he won't be able use his module knowlege without fear you've replaced key plots with your own going in very different directions.
twist it an make it your own
BETTER YET
Identify what the rest of the group are enjoying and write new plots that play into thier wants/likes tailor the adventure to the group. they'll love it and the module reader will lose his advanatge and since the rest of the group will love your changes (not even knowning they're changes) he's got no reasonable way of calling you out on it without showing his hand to the rest of the group who by that point won't care.
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If the player and by extension the PC keeps coming up with The Answer out of the blue with little or no clues then (in Ustalav) he is obviously a WITCH and should be burned at the stake....
the PC not necessarily the player although that would work too
Yes, if the character knows the bad guy's plans so well, he *must* be working for him to undermine the party! The townsfolk might become very suspicious, and start to wonder if the whole party is really trying to help or not...
Maybe the party is behind it all! Grab your pitchforks and torches!
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I'm thinking the real problem isn't with the reading the module, but with lying about it.
It's one thing to read it, expect certain things, and run in given directions. If everyone's cool with it, or the player thinks everyone's cool with it, then there's only a misunderstanding at worst, and it's fixable. But then there's no reason to lie about it.
It's only if other players and the DM have a problem with it, that lying becomes needed, and that's when you know it's wrong.
Alternately, the reading player might think that other players and/or the DM would have a problem with him reading ahead, if they knew he did. So, he reads and lies about it, fully accepting that he'd hate the other players for reading the module if he were running or playing in it. In my opinion, that's worse.
I'd give him one more chance to change his ways, but if he can be caught reading ahead, and he still refuses to admit it, I would kick him out. I'd rather not share my time with people thinking they're trying to screw me over.
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If people would like to know how things ended with this, I'll let you know.
Basically I sent an e-mail to all players in both my campaigns and laid down the law. We had our first game today since then and basically the player in question didn't admit to it, however has seeming either taken a purposeful backseat and pretended, or I was jumping at shadows.
Either way, the information of "I'm watching" got out there without pointing fingers and the problems appears to have resolved itself. I've added a few extra "red herrings" which may not be the case at all, and we'll see what happens.
Ran into this problem back in '77. My solution since has been to NEVER run a module as written. E.G: I ran Jerimond's Orb by Ree Soesbee AEG, 2000) recently for some local kids as a zombie game. Despite having run it at least three previous times for various groups of adult players, including one of the kid's mom's group who was there, nobody saw what was coming.
I have noticed that I love to substitute undead for a 'module or adventure as written' monsters.
We had such same "cheats" on our old group. Since we played AD&D, there was some players that recorded all monsters manuals on their mind. and more...
Playing the OD&D over at JD Webster's, we ghot to be able to recognize the monster from the die rolls. Talk about a dated skill set!
