I once used DM on a flying buffed mage. It really ruined his day after all the module prep time he had used in order to ambush us.
Presumably that forces him to the ground. I guess that could be good if you have a non-flying non-ranged party.
Edit: I'm assuming you dispelled the fly and not something else since you mentioned fly and you only get a max of one spell.
I'd just like to point out how silly the meta discussion is here. Even sillier now that I've added this extra layer.
LT isn't the type to take tiers seriously, even a cursory examination of his posting history shows that. I don't think that's wrong of him at all... I personally hated on tiers for a long time until AMiB (I think) spelled out their utility to GMs a long time ago. Anyway, if you want a serious conversation let's do it.
Has anyone said anything definitive? I'm wary of this "tier wizard" business. It just doesn't jive with my experience — like AMiB (I think) said, does a Wizard really have any significant advantage over a witch?
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Has anyone said anything definitive? I'm wary of this "tier wizard" business. It just doesn't jive with my experience — like AMiB (I think) said, does a Wizard really have any significant advantage over a witch?
I would say it is significant in that a wizard has a lot more options for anything immune to mind-affecting effects. But after factoring in the Cleric/Druid spells the witch can cast and the Hex class ability I think witch is still in the same tier as wizard and more powerful than any of the other classes from APG/UM.
Also ShadowcatX made some similar comments on the last page
It costs a mere 52,405gp to access every core spell in the game (actually a fair bit less as you get many spells for free at level up). It costs nothing to scribe them all into your blessed book (which can itself be created for only 6,250gp).1. Have you recalculated that with the spells added in APG and UM?
2. I'm sorry, but any GM who actually lets a wizard go into the (grimace) Magic Mart and buy a copy of every spell in existence is ridiculous. It's akin to giving the wizard's player a copy of the AP, telling him to study up, and then being distressed that he somehow manages to have the perfect spells memorized for every encounter.
1) I have done the calculations for all the APG alchemist formulas as well. I also had the APG spells for the wizard, but I lost the file at some point and had to revert to an older copy, which was core only. Haven't had the heart to do it all over again.
2) The privilege of looking at other wizards' spellbooks should be just as easy and common as buying anything else in the campaign. There is a clearly listed price for them, and if you are in a town with appropriate GP limits, you should be able to purchase new spells. The best the GM can do without going into house rule territory is change the prices a bit (as it specifically says they can do that). Prohibiting such things altogether (or relegating it to "treasure" only) is not only not the accepted standard, it's against the RAW.
Prep time first. The ability of spellcasters to buff themselves up beforehand and its importance is vastly overrated. The classes that benefit the most from buffs are the classes with the biggest base numbers: martial classes. A wizard's role in combat is generally to cripple half the combatants with spells like Glitterdust or Sleet Storm, and they can do that from a standing stop. It's a fighter or a barbarian who benefits from having Haste, Enlarge Person, etc. layered on him.
Its things like this that will ground the tier system in theory-craft. In the games I run, the mage benefits quite a bit from displacement, flight, shield and the like, which are generally cast in the first few rounds, while the fighter/barb/et all have defensive features, that while maybe not as good, are on all the time. But in this discussion, the wizard, is king, even though without prepping they are one of the most defenseless classes in the game.
It just seems as if the tier system does not match my experience. And some other people are saying the same thing. I mean wizards are a good class, but most of what they do comes from burning a limited use resource. A fighter needn't worry about how many more times he has to swing a sword that day, and if a fighter misses, its not a unrecoverable loss.
Sure everyone has hit points, but a fighter is protecting his hit points in a near constant, non-depleting way, while the wizard, who has less hit points, must expend spells to protect there hit points.
Now I'm not arguing that a fighter is stronger then a wizard, what I am suggesting is that setting up a tier system that allows what seems like odd ground rules (limitless actions and limitless prep time) is of limited usefulness.
It's also generally accepted that every spell is not always available, especially for higher level spells and arcane casters. In a world where 12+ level mages are rare, scrolls would be hoarded by them, not sold.
And don't forget all those spells count against WBL, too.
RD, did you use scroll prices to get the 52k figure? I've seen other, higher numbers used...also, the cost of the Blessed Books or spellbooks to put them in...and the latter will have scribing costs. Blessed Books can fill up fast, too.
And where's your backup copies?
===Aelryinth
2) The privilege of looking at other wizards' spellbooks should be just as easy and common as buying anything else in the campaign. There is a clearly listed price for them, and if you are in a town with appropriate GP limits, you should be able to purchase new spells. The best the GM can do without going into house rule territory is change the prices a bit (as it specifically says they can do that). Prohibiting such things altogether (or relegating it to "treasure" only) is not only not the accepted standard, it's against the RAW.They still have to find the wizard/merchant and convince the wizard/merchant that they should provide the spell to the PC. Just because a product is technically available doesn't mean that it's being advertised and made available to anyone who wants it. The NPCs that are likely to have the higher level spells aren't going to be sitting around waiting for people to stop by and copy the spell; they are going to have agendas and tasks of their own that will effect when and under what conditions the PCs find them. I agree that the DM needs to give the player a chance, at least for the core spells, but that doesn't mean they have to just allow the player to waltz into town and pick up a spell that is capable of leveling it.
In combat with monsters, wizards will generally prepare a day's worth of encounters of one or two tactics (buffs/battlefield control/SOD), and not be some hugely versatile dynamo but not really suffer from a lack of resources, either, since even martial classes will tend to be worn down and running out of necessary buffs and limited use abilities as well. Wizards are vulnerable in melee, yes, but their combat schtick is generally higher impact than martial classes', generally applied with less personal risk, and can often be used to disable threats before they threaten the wizard. It's a different playstyle: arcane spellcasters use their offense to protect themselves, while martial classes use their defenses to be able to participate in combat.
Without having spent some time casting short duration defensive spells the caster will run across a creature that makes it save and beats them to death.
The tl;dr version of this is that wizards get at least reasonably comparable performance to martial classes without the need for limitless actions/prep time.
How?
The reason wizards are a tier 1 class is because they also have an extremely versatile ability to handle a variety of challenges that are not combat with monsters, while the fighter cannot do anything but put monsters to the sword and use one or two skills at best.
Why isnt this true of any class with UMD?
Just on a side note, one doesn't need a high level wizard to gain spells. Only said wizard's spell book. Spell books do not suddenly disappear upon a person's death. Also, many wizards have multiple spell books during their lives.
For example: In one of the novels for Dragon Lance Raistlin was able to procure spells without having a wizard in town because a wizard's descendant had one of his spell books.
Then you get into appeasing the descendant, which might actually be harder than working directly with the wizard, as the wizard at least is going to share some common views on magic. Again though, it's not a matter of trying to cut a PC wizard off from spells, it's being realistic that most people aren't just going to hand over powerful spells to complete strangers, no matter how much coin that stranger might have.
Without having spent some time casting short duration defensive spells the caster will run across a creature that makes it save and beats them to death.You can't save against Obscuring Mist or Sleet Storm or Web or Haste then moving away or Invisibility Sphere or Wall of Ice. (Well, in some cases you can, but it won't give you access to the wizard.) You can use arcane magic to accomplish your effect but also afford yourself protection from whatever it is you're fighting.
I thought I had mentioned this in one of the wizard guides here, once upon a time, but maybe it's been a while.
Those spells haven't done anything but waste your action. None of those spells ended the encounter, and mostly they've made it harder for you to effect your target. And then we are back to the face smashing.
Why isnt this true of any class with UMD?The turnaround for UMD is a significant amount of time if you don't have the item around already, and has a large level band where it's not feasible at all. UMD is also a large chunk of WBL to cover a small set of possible situations.
Plus, the few classes that could use UMD effectively are almost all already quite powerful and versatile, save for rogues. Clerics, sorcerers, oracles, summoners, and bards would probably rather just have a library of scrolls from their own class's spell list.
If you are currently fighting, the turnaround time to restudy vs get a magic item is virtually the same, longer then you have.
And its much faster to UMD a scroll then restudy.
And if you are suggesting that the wizard is fully prepared, then why isnt the character with UMD?
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Without having spent some time casting short duration defensive spells the caster will run across a creature that makes it save and beats them to death.You can't save against Obscuring Mist or Sleet Storm or Web or Haste then moving away or Invisibility Sphere or Wall of Ice. (Well, in some cases you can, but it won't give you access to the wizard.) You can use arcane magic to accomplish your effect but also afford yourself protection from whatever it is you're fighting.
I thought I had mentioned this in one of the wizard guides here, once upon a time, but maybe it's been a while.
Why isnt this true of any class with UMD?Obscuring mist:
"A misty vapor arises around you. It is stationary. The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target)."Including your sight. And a 20% miss chance isn't "safe"
Sleet Storm:
Considering this is a 3rd level spell, a DC 10 acrobatics check isn't that hard. You used a 3rd level spell to half my movement for a round.
Web:
Is a reflex save to negate, followed by a CMB or escape artist check if you fail.Haste:
You use a standard action to be able to move...what you would have been able to move if you hadn't used the standard action to cast the spell.Invisibility Sphere:
Is great, until you do anything else that makes you lose invisibility.Wall of Ice:
Is great, except
"The wall is 1 inch thick per caster level."
"Each 10-foot square of wall has 3 hit points per inch of thickness. Creatures can hit the wall automatically. A section of wall whose hit points drop to 0 is breached. If a creature tries to break through the wall with a single attack, the DC for the Strength check is 15 + caster level."
So most things can break through with the same action economy it cost you to cast it.
All useful at times, but also all taking up spell slots and becoming burnt resources.
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Has anyone said anything definitive? I'm wary of this "tier wizard" business. It just doesn't jive with my experience — like AMiB (I think) said, does a Wizard really have any significant advantage over a witch?A bit of spell selection. Nothing huge.
I think it's a wider gap than most believe.
A witch has more immediate power due to the Save or <blank> nature of their spells and hexes, but a wizard is still the better "prep god" to borrow a term from comic books. The ridiculous amount of spells useful or marginally useful spells just far outstrips the witch. I miss spells like Transmute Rock to Mud, Stoneskin, Haste, Blink, Contingency, Gust of Wind, almost all of the Wall spells, none of the 6 level 2 attribute boosting spells (Bull's Strength, Owl's Wisdom, etc), and the common illusion spells (Silent Image, Major Image, etc). I'm talking about the base spells, not patrons, as I haven't gone over most of the patrons.
I ranked the witch as tier 2 mainly because of some really great spell or very narrow utility spells are missing. And I don't think picking up Cures, and some druid spells make up for that. I really feel the witch is like wizard-lite + some druid skills and spells. They don't seem to have the top tier wizard and druid stuffs, and I think that does hurt quiet a bit when compared to those 2 classes.
I like the balance of the class quiet a bit, but knowing what I'm missing from a wizard bugs me a lot when I play my witch. I think the class is a good balance point compared to the tier 1's.
Okay, enough. If anyone would like to discuss the APG or UM, I'm game. If anyone wants to rehash the same stupid arguments from 2004 about the wizard, feel free to not.
You cant discuss if there are no clear criteria. With no clear criteria then it simply becomes a bunch of people asserting that they are right, with no need to suggest why.
And your original post suggested that you wanted to get other people up to speed on the tiers, so one way to do that would be to suggest why things are placed in the tiers, and be able to support that position.
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I'm sorry, Mok, and everyone, that this discussion has derailed into "tier wizard" territory, and of my contribution to its thread-jacking. I think we've all started to chase down animated, invisible, hasted goalposts, and it's getting us nowhere.
Anyway my tier list:
Tier 1 - Wizard
Tier 2 - Cleric, Druid, Witch, Summoner
Tier 3 - Sorcerer, Oracle, Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Magus
Tier 4 - Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger
Tier 5 - Monk, Rogue, Cavalier, Antipaladin
I cleaned up a bunch of posts. (And the replies to them and so forth.)
Don't make things personal.
Don't dredge up what folks do in other parts of the Internet. It has no bearing here.
And if you think something isn't worth replying to, then don't.
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And your original post suggested that you wanted to get other people up to speed on the tiers, so one way to do that would be to suggest why things are placed in the tiers, and be able to support that position.The essay has 44 pages of replies full of people arguing about the tiers. Search for "tier thread" on these forums. Educate yourself.
I think it's a wider gap than most believe. [...]Hm. What does your typical spell list look like on your witch? Maybe I've been a bit dismissive.
Well first of all, I will admit I screwed up with my hex selection. I mis-read Misfortune, so I didn't combo that with Cackle. Therefore all of my spells and hexes are mind-affecting. Hence my current fight with vampires, I am not helping a lot.
2nd, I didn't take any Summon Monsters. That's because I didn't want to slow down the table any further. I am the 5th player, and everybody else already have animal companions, cohorts, hirelings, and other NPCs. So I didn't want to log around another book (Bestiary, although I'm getting a new laptop so I can carry everything electronicall).
3rd, the DM did allow me to obtain lots of spells I wouldn't have taken myself. ALL of the AGP spells, and all Cures and Mass Cures.
Here's my list, I like to think I didn't screw up too badly other than Summon Monsters.
bleed
dancing light
daze
detect magic
detect poison
guidance
light
mending
message
putrefy food and water
read magic
resistance
spark
stabilize
touch of fatigue
charm person
ray of enfeeblement
silent image
enlarge person
obscuring mist
unseen servant
mage armor
beguiling gift
dancing lantern
ill omen
mask dweomer
ventriloquism
cure light wounds
web
false life
glitterdust
blindness/deafness
burning gaze
feast of ashes
fester
glide
hidden speech
perceive cues
pox pustules
vomit swarm
invisibility
cure moderate wounds
dispel magic
stinking cloud
fly
lightning bolt
cup of dust
guiding star
nature's exile
pain strike
screech
seek thoughts
share senses
twilight knife
blink
dimension door
enervate
solid fog
moonstruck
sleepwalk
spite
threefold aspect
wandering star motes
scrying
confusion
cure serious wounds
overland flight
feeblemind
dominate person
banishment
banish seeming
pain strike (mass)
rest eternal
suffocation
passwall
cure critical wounds
reincarnate
flesh to stone
dispel magic (greater)
true seeing
animate objects
cloak of dreams
fester (mass)
swarm skin
unwilling shield
cure light wounds (mass)
programmed illusion
Caster built with 27 INT, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Deception patron.
EDIT: level 12, although I'm going to be 13, and I haven't updated. And this is my spellbook, not my daily. But I usually do 1 of each Enchantment, multiple Dispel Magics, Blink, False Life, Extended Mage Armor, Fly, Overland Flight, Passwall, Threefold Aspect (interesting buff), Solid Fog.
I think I stated somewhere it seems like the higher witch spells lose way more power than wizards, and that's where I'm hitting a wall.
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It costs a mere 52,405gp to access every core spell in the game (actually a fair bit less as you get many spells for free at level up). It costs nothing to scribe them all into your blessed book (which can itself be created for only 6,250gp).1. Have you recalculated that with the spells added in APG and UM?
2. I'm sorry, but any GM who actually lets a wizard go into the (grimace) Magic Mart and buy a copy of every spell in existence is ridiculous. It's akin to giving the wizard's player a copy of the AP, telling him to study up, and then being distressed that he somehow manages to have the perfect spells memorized for every encounter.1) I have done the calculations for all the APG alchemist formulas as well. I also had the APG spells for the wizard, but I lost the file at some point and had to revert to an older copy, which was core only. Haven't had the heart to do it all over again.
2) The privilege of looking at other wizards' spellbooks should be just as easy and common as buying anything else in the campaign. There is a clearly listed price for them, and if you are in a town with appropriate GP limits, you should be able to purchase new spells. The best the GM can do without going into house rule territory is change the prices a bit (as it specifically says they can do that). Prohibiting such things altogether (or relegating it to "treasure" only) is not only not the accepted standard, it's against the RAW.
You have forgotten to factor the 1746 hours of copy time needed to put all the base spells in your 2 blessed spellbooks and the 25.000 gp needed to have 2 blessed books.
Or in alternative the 103.920 gp used to copy the spells in normal spellbooks.
218 8 hour work days to copy the spells. Without considering the time needed to track them down, get the wizards to share them (sure, I will loan you my spellbook so you can copy the spells [roll eyes]) and so on.
Copying spells from another wizard spellbooks should fall under "spellcasting services" not magic mart ready to buy spells.
This table:
Type Spellcasting
Thorp 1st
Hamlet 2nd
Village 3rd
Small town 4th
Large town 5th
Small city 6th
Large city 7th
Metropolis 8th
From here.
So no purchase of 9th level spells from the shelf, and most spells can be purchased,. from another wizard, only in large cities.
If you buy scrolls to cover the holes in your spell rosters the price increase a lot.
It's also generally accepted that every spell is not always available, especially for higher level spells and arcane casters. In a world where 12+ level mages are rare, scrolls would be hoarded by them, not sold.
And don't forget all those spells count against WBL, too.
RD, did you use scroll prices to get the 52k figure? I've seen other, higher numbers used...also, the cost of the Blessed Books or spellbooks to put them in...and the latter will have scribing costs. Blessed Books can fill up fast, too.
And where's your backup copies?
===Aelryinth
His prices are all based on copying spells from another spellbook.
It's also generally accepted that every spell is not always available, especially for higher level spells and arcane casters. In a world where 12+ level mages are rare, scrolls would be hoarded by them, not sold.
I'm not sure that would be generally accepted, since it directly contradicts what the rules say.
And, hey, if doing it differently works better for your game, I'm 100% behind that -- but you can't seriously say something like "It's generally accepted that you get four strikes to be out in baseball."
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Long time no see. You look lovely. Have you done something new with your hair?
2) The privilege of looking at other wizards' spellbooks should be just as easy and common as buying anything else in the campaign.
Dave, my friend, good Dave, my good friend Dave..
..Yes Cecil, friend Cecil, good Cecil, my good friend Cecil?
Good friend Dave.. May I, perchance, pilfer a perusal of your fine tome of wondrous arcane secrets?
...but good friend Dave, you have your own fine tome of wondrous secrets.
Ah yes and yet.. Dave.. my friend, good Dave, good friend Dave, I believe I can advance my knowings o' teh arcane from studying your aforementioned fine tome of wondrous arcane secrets.
..but Cecil, good friend Cecil, much like your own commendably fine tome of wondrous arcane secrets, my agreeably fine tome of wondrous arcane secrets has many mysteries contained within, secrets that, in the wrong hands, could be used to cause all manner of mischief and suffering.
..but good friend Dave, are you saying that you do not trust me?
..oh no good friend Cecil, it is not you I do not trust.
..then good friend Dave, what is the problem?
..good friend Cecil, while I trust you with my life and soul, from now until forever.. .it's those OTHER wizards that I worry about...
The rules on magic item availability are general generic guidelines... not holy writ on the same level as rules on say, movement.
Assuming I give you that, it'd still be presumptuous to assume that basically everyone does a specific something different from them.
And really, as AMiB put it, we're still back into the same wizard arguments from 2004 here.
It's also generally accepted that every spell is not always available, especially for higher level spells and arcane casters. In a world where 12+ level mages are rare, scrolls would be hoarded by them, not sold.
I'm not sure that would be generally accepted, since it directly contradicts what the rules say.
And, hey, if doing it differently works better for your game, I'm 100% behind that -- but you can't seriously say something like "It's generally accepted that you get four strikes to be out in baseball."
If you're running an AP, and you use the CRB/GMG availability rules, then at around 12th level the players start having to make trips to get specific new spells. This can be quite simple, depending on the campaign, but the mere existence of a soft timer and some RAW consequences for travel, not to mention hostile NPC casters, make for natural limits without houserules.
An individual GM can enforce the elements or not. We haven't crossed over into "house rules". Basically, both sides are right here, depends on the GM and the campaign.
The wizard-bickering is not entirely off-topic, since we're talking about which tier they fall into. But it does get tired when people try to push the extreme interpretation.
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Okay, enough. If anyone would like to discuss the APG or UM, I'm game. If anyone wants to rehash the same stupid arguments from 2004 about the wizard, feel free to not.
Maybe you haven't noticed but this isn't 2004 and it isn't 3.X.
Considering the different classes as if they were still those of 2004 is one the reason why people disagree with your premises.
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Okay, enough. If anyone would like to discuss the APG or UM, I'm game. If anyone wants to rehash the same stupid arguments from 2004 about the wizard, feel free to not.Maybe you haven't noticed but this isn't 2004 and it isn't 3.X.
Considering the different classes as if they were still those of 2004 is one the reason why people disagree with your premises.
Not really, especially when tier discussion doesn't talk about combat abilities as much as overall usefulness.
Fighters still hit things. They still have to do mundane things to solve problems. They still can't use that many Skills to resolve problems.
Wizards still have divinations, Overland Flight, Teleport, Plane Shift, Summon Monsters, more Skills, and lots of specific spells for specific situations (traveling underwater, helping build a wall for the city, tracking down a murderer who left lots of evidence, etc.)
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And before somebody yells "that won't change a thing", take a look at DPR olympics for Monk pre-APG and post-APG.There's a bigger chasm between tier 5 and tier 4 than between tier 4 and tier 3. Generally, your feats are enough to specialize your character in a single schtick, and if that schtick is generally useful, that's enough to make a tier 4 character. Tier 3 takes a pool of varied abilities, though, and doing damage with a full attack is only one problem-solving tool.
Would you consider it balanced if monks got access to all of the Qinggong abilities and a pool of ki of ~monk level? That, plus one of the functional monk combat schticks (Enforcer/Shatter/Stunning, Temple Sword Adept, Zen Archer) is what I'd say would put the monk about on par with the alchemist or bard. People would flip out.
Instead, I forsee a lot of Trapmaster Ranger.
WOW, first time I see a quote change while I am citing it
To reply to what I was quoting by by AMIB:
don't think it will change much, because fighters don't get nice thi...
...er...
Antagonize
Whether with biting remarks or hurtful words, you are adept at making creatures angry with you.
Benefit: You can make Diplomacy and Intimidate checks to make creatures respond to you with hostility. No matter which skill you use, antagonizing a creature takes a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and has a DC equal to the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. You cannot make this check against a creature that does not understand you or has an Intelligence score of 3 or lower. Before you make these checks, you may make a Sense Motive check (DC 20) as a swift action to gain an insight bonus on these Diplomacy or Intimitade checks equal to your Charisma bonus until the end of your next turn. The benefits you gain for this check depend on the skill you use. This is a mind-affecting effect.
Diplomacy: You fluster your enemy. For the next minute, the target takes a –2 penalty on all attacks rolls made against creatures other than you and has a 10% spell failure chance on all spells that do not target you or that have you within their area of effect.
Intimidate: The creature flies into a rage. On its next turn, the target must attempt to make a melee attack against you. The effect ends if the creature is prevented from reaching you or attempting to do so would harm it (for example, if you are on the other side of a chasm or a wall of fire). If it cannot reach you on its turn, you may make the check again as an immediate action to extend the effect for 1 round (but cannot extend it thereafter). The effect ends as soon as the creature makes a melee attack against you. Once you have targeted a creature with this ability, you cannot target it again for 1 day.
If this stay at it is your tiers have been immediately broken.
Anyone would have his "social control" feat and the capacity to change the "game" to a melee.
Not really, especially when tier discussion doesn't talk about combat abilities as much as overall usefulness.
Fighters still hit things. They still have to do mundane things to solve problems. They still can't use that many Skills to resolve problems.
Wizards still have divinations, Overland Flight, Teleport, Plane Shift, Summon Monsters, more Skills, and lots of specific spells for specific situations (traveling underwater, helping build a wall for the city, tracking down a murderer who left lots of evidence, etc.)
This. BTW, this does not takes away my enjoyment of the game (even if I think that at least something for fighter skills could have been done). AND you can play mundanes in a way you can always have something to do outo of combat.
Nevertheless, don't see what BYC says means just close the hears and say "LALALALALALALALALALA"
Kudos to the gentleman pointing out the additional time sink of copying all those spells...and especially doing it twice. And that Blessed Books are 12.5k a pop.
I've never seen a rule anywhere that all level 1 spells are available anywhere they sell level 1 spells. That gets even more ridiculous as you climb the ladder of spell levels.
and it assumes there's a wizard with ALL those spells in his book, letting you copy them. Which makes no sense from the wizard's standpoint, either. Is copying from a spellbook half the cost of purchasing a scroll, or less? If it's less, the wizard would rather draw up a scroll and sell it to you, make more money, and not let you anywhere near his own books.
==Aelryinth
Not really, especially when tier discussion doesn't talk about combat abilities as much as overall usefulness.
Fighters still hit things. They still have to do mundane things to solve problems. They still can't use that many Skills to resolve problems.
Wizards still have divinations, Overland Flight, Teleport, Plane Shift, Summon Monsters, more Skills, and lots of specific spells for specific situations (traveling underwater, helping build a wall for the city, tracking down a murderer who left lots of evidence, etc.)
And I don't think anyone is arguing something different.
Wizards have a host of options available to them, but then again, so do Rogues, Sorcerers, and Bard's.
So what is it that makes those classes so inferior to Wizards? And thats a real question, because they all fill certain roles much better then a Wizard, and certain roles much worse then a Wizard.
I was using fighter in my examples before simply because it was easier. I mean if you want, replace every mention of fighter for Bard, which is a tier 3.
So what is it that makes those classes so inferior to Wizards?
Let's say there is a high level adventuring group of 5: Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric and Bard. This group has been told that they'll be given some time off from adventuring by the DM (months, years, etc.) Now lets look at what they do with their off time.
Fighter: I'm not really sure, train an army? Practice his skills? Drink at the tavern and chase winches?
Rogue: Maybe run/found a thieves' guild or get into some other crime adventure.
Bard: Write some epic poems? Put on a rock concert?
Cleric and Wizard: They're busy creating their own DEMIPLANES.
It is stuff like that which creates the tiers. It's not just about raw power or what class X does in combat, it's about what they do for the rest of the game.
Edit: The Bard and/or Rogue could use UMD to create their own planes as well but there a lot of people arguing that 7+ level scrolls should be rare so is it really feasible?
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Kudos to the gentleman pointing out the additional time sink of copying all those spells...and especially doing it twice. And that Blessed Books are 12.5k a pop.
I've never seen a rule anywhere that all level 1 spells are available anywhere they sell level 1 spells. That gets even more ridiculous as you climb the ladder of spell levels.
and it assumes there's a wizard with ALL those spells in his book, letting you copy them. Which makes no sense from the wizard's standpoint, either. Is copying from a spellbook half the cost of purchasing a scroll, or less? If it's less, the wizard would rather draw up a scroll and sell it to you, make more money, and not let you anywhere near his own books.
==Aelryinth
There are ways to manage it in a commercially logical way with little risk for the guy selling the spells [people having single spell booklet that are rented for copying], but generally it would end with a small number of very common spells sold in most locations while the other more specialized spells are sold only in a few locations.
And I don't think anyone is arguing something different.
Wizards have a host of options available to them, but then again, so do Rogues, Sorcerers, and Bard's.
So what is it that makes those classes so inferior to Wizards? And thats a real question, because they all fill certain roles much better then a Wizard, and certain roles much worse then a Wizard.
I was using fighter in my examples before simply because it was easier. I mean if you want, replace every mention of fighter for Bard, which is a tier 3.
Is not a matter of power or role.
Is a matter of "put in front a number of situations, how many solutions the PCs has?".
It does not subtract value to the game. It's just a tool to understand how things work.
So what is it that makes those classes so inferior to Wizards?Let's say there is a high level adventuring group of 5: Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric and Bard. This group has been told that they'll be given some time off from adventuring by the DM (months, years, etc.) Now lets look at what they do with their off time.
Fighter: I'm not really sure, train an army? Practice his skills? Drink at the tavern and chase winches?
Rogue: Maybe run/found a thieves' guild or get into some other crime adventure.
Bard: Write some epic poems? Put on a rock concert?
Cleric and Wizard: They're busy creating their own DEMIPLANES.
It is stuff like that which creates the tiers. It's not just about raw power or what class X does in combat, it's about what they do for the rest of the game.
Edit: The Bard and/or Rogue could use UMD to create their own planes as well but there a lot of people arguing that 7+ level scrolls should be rare so is it really feasible?
I would agree that such things define the tiers, but it is important to note that the biggest difference between those options is that creating demiplanes in reasonably well defined, while the others, still quite potent in their own right, are not. They get into the area that LT was looking at, and simply don't fit into the same conversation because they require a lot more DM discretion. However, the effect on a campaign will probably be that that the army, thieves' guild, and the epic poems would actually have more effect on the world as a whole than the demiplane created by the wizard so he could have a quiet place to study without being disturbed constantly.
So, within the limits of what the tier system can measure, the full casters tend to win, but it is important to understand the imits of the tier system and where the system starts to break down.
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So what is it that makes those classes so inferior to Wizards?Let's say there is a high level adventuring group of 5: Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric and Bard. This group has been told that they'll be given some time off from adventuring by the DM (months, years, etc.) Now lets look at what they do with their off time.
Fighter: I'm not really sure, train an army? Practice his skills? Drink at the tavern and chase winches?
Rogue: Maybe run/found a thieves' guild or get into some other crime adventure.
Bard: Write some epic poems? Put on a rock concert?
Cleric and Wizard: They're busy creating their own DEMIPLANES.
It is stuff like that which creates the tiers. It's not just about raw power or what class X does in combat, it's about what they do for the rest of the game.
Edit: The Bard and/or Rogue could use UMD to create their own planes as well but there a lot of people arguing that 7+ level scrolls should be rare so is it really feasible?
You mean that thing that is 200' large, 200' long and 40' high at level 20?
I am used to larger churches.And it last 1 day level unless you use a permanency spell.
I would prefer spending my days chasing wenches.
BTW: I suspect that chasing "winches" will not be that fun. ;)
Never underestimate the importance of training an army (ask Corwin of Amber!), running a guild, or gathering fame. Any of those can be just as interesting or even more so than casting a Create Demiplane spell.
While building an army, running a guild or being famous can all be useful, they're not very useful as a measurement tool of class ability. A level 1 aristocrat can raise an army, run a guild, or become famous, but only a 13th level caster can create a demiplane.
That's the point. It's not what they can do, it's what they can't. The fighter, rogue and bard have all accomplished amazing things that a person in real life would be incredibly proud of, but they failed to cross out of the mundane.
Who would be more influential/respected/powerful in the real world: Justin Timberlake or a man who created a new plane of existence?