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Trust me he knows what he's doing!I suspect your player would be just as versatile and dominant with a wizard character. He would have to rely on Craft Construct, Leadership, or planar binding instead of an eidolon, but would otherwise be just as effective.
Or any character. I mean if he can get a character in light armor and split resources to that level then he A) He is one of those people who take the time to devour the rules and/or B) The campaign is offering a lot of opportunities he is taking advantage of.
Yep, he's got 14 ride with an exotic saddle, around 80 hp and 27 AC with gear, shield spell, items, dex etc - these are about average for our party, maybe a little lower on the AC front.... and uses the eidolon for cover when he can. Trust me he knows what he's doing!
Can we see the build? stats, feats, gear for the summoner and eidelon?
Its alright, I've come to terms with it, and will try and prepare more carefully to even the playing field. I think its mainly a demonstration of the class teirs in action I'm witnessing in my campaign. The party has...
Another relevant question is: how were the stats in your game determined?
The thing I think is genuinely badly designed about the summoner is: it cares about what its stats are less than basically any other character. Since eidolon and summoned monster stats don't depend on the summoners, it's possible to build a pretty playable summoner even with something ridiculous like 0 point buy, whereas the 0 point buy rogue would be sad indeed.
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Correct. I had not read the Lion in a while, so I was forgetting the exact format. The Lion's extra attacks on the Pounce come from the Rake ability, not rear claws. Rake is, of course, is a separate evolution.
You would not need to take an additional set of limbs to mimic a lion (bite, two claws and pounce), because each purchase of the Claws evolution grants TWO claw attacks.
That's how I'd rule it:
Claws on front legs = Claws evolution
Claws on back legs = Rake evolution
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4)you took claws twice, which in and of itself is fine, you get 2, but because of the cap you can make one of the two it gives you. However, you took improved damage claws and applied it to ALL claw attacks. It only applies to one SET. IE with 4 claw attacks, one set would be made at 1d6 and the other would be 1d4.
Why would improved damage claws not apply to all claws? The feat improved natural weapon would.
Presuming you allow him to add a second set of claws without more limbs, yes, you could also allow that.
per the RAW, he can only buy claws once, which only provides the two attacks. Quadruped Eidolon only comes with a free Bite attack.
Unless a quadruped picks up arms as well. A quadruped can have only one set of claws on his legs, the rear need to be rake attacks.
The 15 minute workday is the death of D&D
Uh. More combats in a day plays fantastically to a Summoner, over almost anything else.
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The thing I think is genuinely badly designed about the summoner is: it cares about what its stats are less than basically any other character. Since eidolon and summoned monster stats don't depend on the summoners, it's possible to build a pretty playable summoner even with something ridiculous like 0 point buy, whereas the 0 point buy rogue would be sad indeed.
I'd have to agree with this. Things like pets with fixed Ability Scores become much better with a lower point buy for the PCs. It's not as obvious with the Druid's Animal Companion, but it's there (and few people really care that much about a Familiar's Ability Scores with regards to combat anyway). The Summoner's eidolon really brings the issue to the fore though, and the Synthesist doubly so (essentially allowing a PC access to static Ability Scores in a points-built or dice rolled game).
Starting Biped and Serpentine eidolons, for example, are technically 12pt characters, whilst the Quadruped is a 10pt character. I say technically because that doesn't include the Summoner putting any evolution points into the Ability Increase evolution. By second level the eidolon has +1 to its Strength and Dexterity, making it the equivalent of a 16pt buy character (if Biped or Serpentine)... so if you're playing a 'standard fantasy' 15pt buy game the eidolon is already better, Ability Score wise, than any of the actual PCs by level 2 (the +2 racial bonus just keeps the PCs up with the Summoner taking the Ability Increase evolution for his eidolon... once...). Gods forbid you have one of these things in a 'low fantasy' game!
But by the time you get to 20th level, the eidolon has gotten an extra +8 Strength and Dexterity, on top of 3 Ability Score increases from Hit Dice, and any evolutions put into improving its Ability Scores. Considering PCs only have +5 to their Ability Scores from their levels by that point, the eidolon is way out in front. Sure, the PCs can gain extra from magic items... but so can the eidolon: belt slot for the pet, headband slot for the master - what's not to like?
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I get pretty tired of hearing about how Eidolons are so overpowered. It's usually a result of one or a couple different things.
1.) player built eidolon incorrectly
2.) player is using the eidolon's rules incorrectly
3.) the player enjoys optimizing and the rest of the group doesn't (resulting in this catastrophe)
In the future I would warn all players considering playing a summoner that they are a difficult class with many rules (and exceptions) and lots of working with numbers.
I've played and DMed with just as many summoners who's eidolon was over powered as those who's eidolon was under powered.
I get pretty tired of hearing about how Eidolons are so overpowered. It's usually a result of one or a couple different things.
1.) player built eidolon incorrectly
2.) player is using the eidolon's rules incorrectly
3.) the player enjoys optimizing and the rest of the group doesn't (resulting in this catastrophe)In the future I would warn all players considering playing a summoner that they are a difficult class with many rules (and exceptions) and lots of working with numbers.
I've played and DMed with just as many summoners who's eidolon was over powered as those who's eidolon was under powered.
I am also tired of these threads, but for different reasons. The summoner is just a giant head ache. So many exceptions, rules, etc. There is a reason for the # of threads and that is that the class was, shall we say, "less well designed" than the others.
And the archetypes make things worse.
Just gonna say. I have a 12th level Fighter who focused on the Great Axe.
He only has a 22 STR (magically adjusted) giving him a +6 to str with a +12 base attack. Weapon training +2 Axes gives him a +2 to Hit and Damage. Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus gives him another +2 to hit and Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization give him a +4 to damage. He also has a fully utilized Power Attack (12th level that's a -4 to hit +8 to damage, but it's a two handed weapon so that increases to +12 damage) So right there he has a +18/+13/+8 to hit and 1d12 + 27 X3 to damage. That's before taking into the consideration that by this level he has a pretty decent magical item.
This particular fighter has a simple +2 Greataxe of Speed so his full attack goes +20/+20/+15/+10 and does a minimum of 30 points of damage a hit.
Those are just the 5 pertinent feats out of his TWELVE.
One of the other players, a Monk, complains bitterly that my FIGHTER is broken because of the sheer damage per strike he does.
Every character class is broken in someone's opinion.
Unless the Eidolon got killed in the first combat.
If only the Summoner had a fantastic number of Summon Monster per day to cover that eventuality.
Fighters and rogues are not affected at all by a long day,
They run out of hit points. (Or they take ability damage, or they get permanently blinded and no one can fix it that day, or whatever.) They'll run out of HP a long, long time before the Summoner runs out of Eidolon + Summons.
I've never seen the Summoner in the game I'm running run even half out even in days with a few dozen combats. The class has ridiculously more staying power than you give it credit for.
Just gonna say. I have a 12th level Fighter who focused on the Great Axe.
He only has a 22 STR (magically adjusted) giving him a +6 to str with a +12 base attack. Weapon training +2 Axes gives him a +2 to Hit and Damage. Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus gives him another +2 to hit and Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization give him a +4 to damage. He also has a fully utilized Power Attack (12th level that's a -4 to hit +8 to damage, but it's a two handed weapon so that increases to +12 damage) So right there he has a +18/+13/+8 to hit and 1d12 + 27 X3 to damage. That's before taking into the consideration that by this level he has a pretty decent magical item.
This particular fighter has a simple +2 Greataxe of Speed so his full attack goes +20/+20/+15/+10 and does a minimum of 30 points of damage a hit.
Those are just the 5 pertinent feats out of his TWELVE.
One of the other players, a Monk, complains bitterly that my FIGHTER is broken because of the sheer damage per strike he does.
Every character class is broken in someone's opinion.
Well, it is a Monk of course he thinks your broke (he is weak compared to you).
Plus, the Monk probably isn't built well:At level 12, he could have Enforcer+Dazzling Display+Shatter Defenses, and Medusa's wrath so he has 5 attacks + 2 Medusa's wrath = 7 attacks (you qualify because enforcer makes them flatfooted with shatter defenses)
Could be more damage with Guided enhancement (add Wis to hit/damage instead of Str) added to Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Power attack (-3), 2d6 damage + 22 Wis +2 Amulet = 2d6 +14 = average 21 damage per attack.
7 x 21 = 147 damage.
Yes, one of the attacks has to nonlethal to activate Shatter defenses, but you are shaken no save.
Your Fighter does 33.7 on average x4 attacks = 134 damage on average so the monk isn't built correctly if he is doing less than that.
Your Fighter does 33.7 on average x4 attacks = 134 damage on average so the monk isn't built correctly if he is doing less than that.
In his defense, that build includes at least two non-Core things that aren't allowed in any of the three Pathfinder games (each with a different GM) that I'm in right now.
This particular Monk has Boots of Speed that give him 10 rounds of Haste a day.
His flurry of blows has 6 attacks because of that. His strength is a 20 and I think he has a +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists, plus Monks Robes. So his flurry is
+17/+17/+17/+12/+12/+7 at 2d8 + 7
I don't happen to know if he uses Power Attack or not. I think he does because I think his to hit is lower than that normally. I also don't know if he's taken weapon focus. I would THINK he has.
But in any event. Summoners can be beaten with scrolls of Dismissal. I mean, they summon a creature, the enemy casts the scroll and their summon goes away.
There are a lot of classes that get Use Magic Device even if you DONT have a caster capable of casting it. It's only a 4th level spell for Clerics and 5th level for Wizards.
Not to mention, most people make their Eidolon's HUGE... which...can't get through a thin 5' hallway without massive penalties. No other summon can match a designed Eidolon.
That and effects which knock the Summoner out make it go bye bye. There are a lot of ways to make it go away. AntiMagic Field will do it. It's also a summoned outsider, which means Magic Circle Against and Protection From count to keep it from touching a person with Melee attacks.
It's also a summoned outsider, which means Magic Circle Against and Protection From count to keep it from touching a person with Melee attacks.
Nope. It has a specific exception to that built into its description.
As far as a scroll of dismissal goes, that's an awfully expensive way to shut down one of their summons, which they could then replace the next round. DC 16 Will to negate isn't exactly a sure thing, either.
Apologies if this was mentioned upthread and I didn't see it, but to the OP...I think the disparity you see in the eidolon's strength and constitution scores are probably due to augment summoning feat? I bet the summoner took those and is applying them to the eidolon all the time. They should not be. They only apply if the eidolon is summoned via the spell. /salute!
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I am also tired of these threads, but for different reasons. The summoner is just a giant head ache. So many exceptions, rules, etc. There is a reason for the # of threads and that is that the class was, shall we say, "less well designed" than the others.
Why would you possibly think it's 'less well designed'?
Lots of people have lots of fun playing summoners. Power-wise its still quite a bit below an optimized wizard. And just because the rules are kind of messy and there are lots of small fiddly special rules and exceptions - it's supposed to be this way, it's D&D 3.5+something after all.
Paizo's own designers even stated that Fun > Balance during the PF RPG playtests.
And since the summoner is described in a book called .... wait for it... Advanced Players Guide, this might be taken as a hint that it's intended for advanced players, as in, those players with a basic understanding of addition and pf game mechanics :)
I'd venture a guess that Kerobelis was referring more to the relatively loose rules surrounding the summoner, not necessarily imbalance. There are a lot of questions on the summoner (especially a certain UM archetype) because some of the class's rules a unclear.
Ok, thanks for clarifying.
As for the last line there you should read the forward in the APG.
I do not own that particular product, I only know some of its content from the playtests and the pfsrd. Is the foreword (I guess you meant that) available somewhere for free?
I am also tired of these threads, but for different reasons. The summoner is just a giant head ache. So many exceptions, rules, etc. There is a reason for the # of threads and that is that the class was, shall we say, "less well designed" than the others.Why would you possibly think it's 'less well designed'?
Lots of people have lots of fun playing summoners. Power-wise its still quite a bit below an optimized wizard. And just because the rules are kind of messy and there are lots of small fiddly special rules and exceptions - it's supposed to be this way, it's D&D 3.5+something after all.
Paizo's own designers even stated that Fun > Balance during the PF RPG playtests.
And since the summoner is described in a book called .... wait for it... Advanced Players Guide, this might be taken as a hint that it's intended for advanced players, as in, those players with a basic understanding of addition and pf game mechanics :)
My comments are based on the # of threads asking questions, posts of incorrectly built eidolons, the huge problems with the synthesis archetype, potential abuse of multiple weapons combined with natural attacks, concerns about some of the other archetypes, etc.
I think these posts outnumber the rest of the APG classes combined, in not all the classes.
I am no designer, but I do think a class should not have this much confusion / problems / what ever you want to call it.
I also understand it is in the advanced players guide. That doesn't mean the class should be so difficult to build / understand.
I just seems like such a headache.
As others have said, TRIPLE check the build. There will be mistakes. They happen. I am playing one in a Kingmaker campaign ( my rogue got ett'ed :( ) I am NOT an optimizer by any sense of the word ( would be embarassed to post any of my builds ) nor is my playing group. I have been playing versions of the game since um..well, AD&D had just come out.
I STILL have the DM go over the build with me using Hero Lab. I also deliberately try NOT to overshadow the melee elements of the group. So we discuss possible problems with the build. It would be easy to overshadow as they are not optimizers either.
In itself, the class is not overpowered. It is clunky. And not "rules light". Lots of questionable rulings and interpretations. I do not allow them in the RotRL campaign I am running. :)
Greg
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As others have said, TRIPLE check the build. There will be mistakes. They happen. I am playing one in a Kingmaker campaign ( my rogue got ett'ed :( ) I am NOT an optimizer by any sense of the word ( would be embarassed to post any of my builds ) nor is my playing group. I have been playing versions of the game since um..well, AD&D had just come out.
I STILL have the DM go over the build with me using Hero Lab. I also deliberately try NOT to overshadow the melee elements of the group. So we discuss possible problems with the build. It would be easy to overshadow as they are not optimizers either.
In itself, the class is not overpowered. It is clunky. And not "rules light". Lots of questionable rulings and interpretations. I do not allow them in the RotRL campaign I am running. :)
Greg
I had a summoner in my Kingmaker group. The problems we ran into:
1. The rules were difficult to understand. The player is a good, experienced, power-gamer from 3.5, though new to Pathfinder. There were mistakes made. At first when the summoner completely overpowered the rest of the PARTY combined I took a look, and found some errors in his gameplay (not so much the build) that we then corrected.
2. One of the more SAD classes, with tons of staying power and versatility. A good player will succeed with almost any class by playing to its strengths. The summoner player is a very good player - he's played this character type before in 3.5 (conjuration wizard, old and role-played as such, but of course also amazingly powerful with very high intelligence) so I know it's not only powergaming - he loves this type of character - but he knew exactly what to take to make the summoner a power house - and was aware of his weaknesses (summoner going down and eidolon too) and took them into account well.
3. Pit spells are killer at low level. Seriously, a flat climb DC? and that DC is 25? The only way to mitigate it was have huge creatures or flying creatures.
I pretty much had to make the battles a cakewalk for the summoner, or threaten a TPK every battle. These issues are exacerbated by the 1 combat / day pattern generally played out in Kingmaker (the biggest weakness I've noticed in a fun and exciting AP), which allows the summoner (and the rest of the party, to be fair) to pretty much go nova every battle.
Finally I had to talk to the player and explain that given my experience with the summoner, I would never allow one in play in one of my games again. Other DMs who were playing at my table agreed. This player, also a DM, admitted he'd seen what a problem it was, and had conciously been holding back already to try to tone it down. Obviously the issues wer still making the other players feel almost like they were sidekicks to the summoner. He voluntarily retired the character.
I made some mistakes, the biggest one was allowing him to create an older character (his saves were pretty ridiculous).
Some of this will happen no matter what this player plays - this player is one of the more gifted power-gamers in the group, and he used everything to his advantage. It fit with his character's story, which was really cool and fun to work with, but he knows how to make the best of any class option. Other players have definitely made choices that weren't optimal build wise, though they're still fun.
I feel that the real problem, in the end, is that summoner is such a hodge podge of new rules subsystems, exceptions to normal summoning / outsider rules, and full of such unusal attempts to balance what is obviously a flavorful but difficult to design class concept that it's too much work for me to allow in a game I run. I would never bother creating a summoner enemy because it's simply too much to look up and keep track of, and even gifted players are unsure of what is and isn't allowed for the character - and the DM having to keep track of all those things to keep it fair is a huge extra burden that I feel shouldn't be imposed on a DM by class design.
I feel that the real problem, in the end, is that summoner is such a hodge podge of new rules subsystems, exceptions to normal summoning / outsider rules, and full of such unusal attempts to balance what is obviously a flavorful but difficult to design class concept that it's too much work for me to allow in a game I run. I would never bother creating a summoner enemy because it's simply too much to look up and keep track of, and even gifted players are unsure of what is and isn't allowed for the character - and the DM having to keep track of all those things to keep it fair is a huge extra burden that I feel shouldn't be imposed on a DM by class design.
Yeppers. One of the BIGGIE reasons I will not allow 'em in my campaigns is the time element thing. I don't want to take the time that I am putting my DM thru :P in going over a summoner build.
Annother biggie, is that, truthfully, I do not believe most of my players could/would handle the extra thought and planning that goes into a summoner/eidolon than in another character. It is easier to tell everyone "no" than to say, "NO, except for players A and B."
For my group though, I worry less about outshining the other players, with my summoner part because my halfling is relagated to mostly buffing and missle attacks. I do worry about outshining the companions at this moment. I am certain this will change at later levels, but right now, I work hard not to marginalize the woofs and bears.
Greg
I get pretty tired of hearing about how Eidolons are so overpowered. It's usually a result of one or a couple different things.
1.) player built eidolon incorrectly
2.) player is using the eidolon's rules incorrectly
3.) the player enjoys optimizing and the rest of the group doesn't (resulting in this catastrophe)In the future I would warn all players considering playing a summoner that they are a difficult class with many rules (and exceptions) and lots of working with numbers.
I've played and DMed with just as many summoners who's eidolon was over powered as those who's eidolon was under powered.
And it seems that people forget that the guy with the big glowing rune on his face is really very squishy....
And it seems that people forget that the guy with the big glowing rune on his face is really very squishy....
In my experience, they're not really squishy enough. In any kind of close quarters it's pretty easy to use the eidolon as a wall to keep melee monsters at bay, and if that fails? Hey, transpose and the eidolon full attacks.
That isn't to say that, as a GM running a game with a summoner PC currently, I haven't had some success ignoring the eidolon and railing on the summoner -- but in a lot of fights it just does not work out.
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And it seems that people forget that the guy with the big glowing rune on his face is really very squishy....
Not really. The key is, if the player realizes they're the weak spot as well, and mitigate that intelligently then you as the DM have to find some reason to gun mainly for that one guy hiding behind a rock all the time.
I could have focussed on the summoner. In fact, as they faced fewer animals and such in the forest, or as his backstory permitted, I DID send things specifically after him. But a good player who wants to survive can, unless the DM starts running things in a rather nastier manner than I prefer.
I"ll just say the summoner presents extra problems in many ways for a DM, and most of them involve the DM having to spend lots of extra time on the summoner character. It's not, for me, worth allowing summoners in games I run ever again.
AntiMagic Field... 6 lvl spell. 10' radius centered on the caster. lasts 10 minutes a level
The rules on creating a Singe Use, Use activated object is Spell Level X Caster Level X 50gps so Minimum CL is 11th. 6 X 11 X 50 = 3,300gp. In other words if your enemy has access to a Wizard of middling strength you can have
Crystals of AntiMagic a simple magical item that, when thrown to the ground and broken create a 10' radius field of no magic (centered on the bearer) which lasts for 110 minutes.
All summoned creatures simply wink out if they enter the field. So, you give a buttload of Goblins these things and they swarm over the Summoner and eat him.
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And it seems that people forget that the guy with the big glowing rune on his face is really very squishy....
... Sure... as squishy as the next ¾ BAB, light armour-using, d8 Hit Die character... like a Bard... or Magus... hey, wait - that's actually not that squishy at all!
And for the 'glowing rune blues' I suggest: get ahead, get a hat! ;p
You know a class is overpowered when people give ultra specific suggestions on "how to fix the class", which involve opponents using specifics abilities or spells, JUST TO CHALLENGE THAT ONE CHARACTER.
It's laughable that anyone thinks that even 5% of opponents will have spells like Dismissal, Forbiddance, or Anti-Magic Shell at their disposal. I can go through many high level APs that don't even have a single BBG that fits that description.
Soon the game becomes less about telling a story, and more about creating encounters, specifically just to challenge this one character. To me, this kind of gaming sucks and yes, the class is overpowered. It looks like they wanted to make an arcane druid, but in doing so they buffed the pet too much.
2. The caveats you listed above could easily apply to a wizard especially a tricked out conjurer.
I have to think you know it's not really on the same scale, even if it is a similar problem.
While it is true that when you face an intelligent enemy, fireballs and ranged attacks will start raining into the back row of the fight to target the casters.
However, many creatures are not that intelligent and devious, and while an even larger group of monsters would strike out at casters, the Summoner is even less a profile than a wizard. He usually doesn't do much more than stand in the back and cast a few buff spells, or weak ranged attacks. So pining for the Summoner is not really a viable tactic.
This is a non-problem in my Campaign anyway, as the Summoners player didn't really feel for the character and have changed. That's really a huge relief, as I don't have to deal with future eventualities of the Eidolon.
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Yes - a Summoner in combat is like a Bard... who isn't calling attention to himself...
The one 'obvious' sign of being a Summoner is mitigated by buying at hat... although you can get one free as part of the free outfit all characters start with, so it's even less of a 'limitation' than a spell component pouch or a holy symbol...