Shadowboxing.DM's page

Thanks Verse.

I also have a question re: dim door. Can summoned characters/creatures complete full actions after being dim doored, especially eidolons with sumoner's call.

Pretty sure I know the answer, just that this is a very gank-happy spell, summoning 2 melleers right on top of the enemy boss for a double round of full attacks.

Its alright, I've come to terms with it, and will try and prepare more carefully to even the playing field. I think its mainly a demonstration of the class teirs in action I'm witnessing in my campaign. The party has...

rogue/shadowdancer (tier 4)
fighter/ranger/assassin (tier 4)
Ranger/rogue (tier 4)
Transmuter (inexperienced player - tier 2-3)
Summoner (experienced player - tier 1)

The next part of the campaign will involve more roleplaying intrigue that I think the other members will shine in more anyway. Just wanted to make discussion and see how other DMs felt about summoners in general. I still feel they have the raw power of 1.5 average PCs though.

What if you have scent when an invisible creature passes by you?

Yeah would somebody who failed their save vs a dazing fireball (hence taking damage) be dazed with no further saves?

Shadowboxing.DM wrote:

And as for attacking the summoner rather than eidolon, his AC and HP is above average in the party, and riding a flying creature helps him avoid attacks..

He shouldn't be, he can only wear light armor and has d8 hit points.

Also, being on a flying creature, he is going to need a lot of ride checks to do pretty much anything.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/ride

Yep, he's got 14 ride with an exotic saddle, around 80 hp and 27 AC with gear, shield spell, items, dex etc - these are about average for our party, maybe a little lower on the AC front.... and uses the eidolon for cover when he can. Trust me he knows what he's doing!

One of my players, a rogue/shadowdancer, with no backstory or roleplay relating to martial arts, monastic training or anything of the sort, wishes to take a few monk levels.

I've said that he'll need three months of training from a sensei to get the first level (which would occur during downtime), and ongoing training for the rest. And that he'll have to maintain a lawful alignment of course.

Interested to know how relaxed other DMs are about random tangent multiclassing. I mean, its what the player wants for their character, it contributes in a big way to his enjoyment, but at the same time you don't want it to be too much of a karate kid montage for realism's sake.

Thanks for the tips, and I will double check those figures, but the player hasn't made an error I'm fairly sure. He is meticulous and does follow the rules carefully. I guess its also the classic problem of a powergamer in a party of semi-roleplay builds.

james, notice I'm not just complaining about how the class measures up against other combatants in the party, but its pure versatility, the mobility of the eidolon, along with the spells and added damage/utility engine of the summon SLA.

idwraith, i know he can only keep one summon at a time, and his summons can't summon summons, but its more the versatility of having any of these creatures, some with useful SLA's of their own, on call with a standard action which I don't like. Its like, he summons a lion, and that can pounce/grapple for 30 damage and a disable, and thats much more than the (sufficiently powerful) mellee focused character can do on a charge. OR he can summon an aquatic creature, flyer, caster, mount, harrasser, scout... many times a day with no real resources lost. Its not like a sorcerer using summon monster V because a) it doesnt actually use any spells and b) its only a standard action, so the amount of situations you can use it to respond to is greatly increased.

Summoner feels about as powerful as 1.5 PCs to me. Though I've heard they do peak around this level and plateau a bit later...

And as for attacking the summoner rather than eidolon, his AC and HP is above average in the party, and riding a flying creature helps him avoid attacks.

Its a tough one to crack, I will likely hand down more nerfs but I don't want to be too punishing. But keep the discussion coming, this is really bothering me atm.

But yes... dismissal and will-save attacks are useful tips... thanks.

I think I'm having a similar problem with the summoner in my party (I'm the DM). The character just reached level 9. The eidolon easily outdamages the mellee fighter and the ranger (neither of which can fly, make themselves invisible, give themselves a swim or burrow speed with a spell etc.) I feel like the summoner as it appears in the APG is overpowered, and my DM sense is rarely wrong after 12 years...

It's not just the eidolon but the SLA summons too... he seems to be able to do/deal with ANYTHING at short notice... in the last session he revealed a new trick up his sleeve after the eidolon was killed - using summons for their spells, I just realised now he has summon monster V he can create 1d3 ice mephits for 1d3 loads of CL6 magic missiles (potentially 9 missiles a volley), 6 times a day! And when he gets summon monster VI, potentially 15 missiles, 6+ times a day! He used wind wall from one of his mephits to counter a powerful archer NPC, and then summoned a lion to pounce and grapple him. None of these things on their own are especially powerful for an 8th level character, but when you have ALL of them at once, it starts to smell OP!

Granted this is all skilled play and he deserves kudos for his tactics, but I am concerned that others feel like he is a one man party and combined with his eidolon, can completely dominate combat! After enlarging his eidolon it outmuscled the mature adult black dragon boss of the last adventure, and this is after me nerfing elemental claws to 2 evo points!

There are also summons that can cast cure spells he has already told me he plans on using in the future - so then he'll be a stand-in cleric too. I think I will (partially) deal with the SLA by saying that any summons have to attack his enemies in the first round of being summoned - i.e. he can't summon them with a standard and immediately command them to use THEIR SLA's in the same round. It seems like too much versatility + spell power.

Is there anything I'm missing here or is this supposed to be allowed? I can't help but feel like I'm missing something...

Another query: If he uses maker's call to summon the eidolon beside him, can it take a full attack at an enemy it threatens?

The summoner in my group has a quadraped eidolon that he mounts in combat. Here's the eidolon's stats.

Rach:

Str 25(+2), Dex 15, Con 18, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11

Will save: 2 (+4 vs Enchantment), Reflex save: 7 (with Evasion), Fort save: 9

Normal:

Melee attack: 15/13 ( 7 BAB + 8 Str + 1 Enhancement – 1 Size ). Damage: 2x 1d6+9+1d6 electricity claws; 1d8+9+1d6 electricity bite; 2x1d6+5+1d6 electricity wing buffet.

Power attack: 13/11 ( 7 BAB + 8 Str +1 Enhancement – 1 Size – 2 PA). Damage is 2x 1d6+13+1d6 electricity claws; 1d6+13+1d6 electricity bite; 2x1d6+7+1d6 electricity wing buffet.

AC: 27 (10 + 12 Natural Armor + 2 Dex + 4 Mage Armor – 1 size)

CMB: 16 (7 BAB + 8 Str + 1 Size) CMD: 28 (10+7 BAB + 8 Str + 2 Dex + 1 Size)

Fully Buffed: (Haste, Enlarge Person, Summon Eidolon – causing him to benefit from the +4 Str/Con of Augment Summoning, Shield, Barkskin):

Melee Attack: 17/15 ( 7 BAB + 10 Str + 1 Enhancement + 1 Haste – 2 Size). Damage is 2x 1d8+11+1d6 Electricity claws; 2d6+11+1d6 Electricity bite; 2x1d6+6+1d6 electricity wing buffet.

Power Attack: 15/13 ( 7 BAB + 10 Str + 1 Enhancment + 1 Haste – 2 Size – 2 PA). Damage is 2x 1d8+15+1d6 Electricity claws; 2d6+15+1d6 Electricity bite; 2x1d6+8+1d6 electricity wing buffet.

Note: The Eidolon will prefer to use a flying charge, giving it +3 attack bonus (2 from charge, 1 from altitute) and -2 AC.

AC: 34 (10 + 12 Natural Armor +4 NA Enhancement + 1 Dex + 4 Mage Armor – 2 Size + 1 Haste +4 Shield)

CMB: 19 (7 BAB + 10 Str + 2 Size) CMD: 31 (10+7 BAB + 10 Str + 1 Dex + 2 Size + 1 Dodge)

HP: 70

Feats: Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard (use an AOO to aid another’s defence), Power Attack, In Harm’s Way (when using bodyguard, can take damage in place of target), Multiattack (Bonus)

SQ: Evasion, Devotion (+4 will vs Enchantment), Darkvision 60ft, Link, Share Spells

Note: Will practically always be under the effect of Greater Magic Fang and Mage Armor; this are included in stats.