I'm having a bit of a conundrum in my Pathfinder game - the Summoners Eidolon is currently outclassing most of the other characters in the game. With a strength of 22, bipedal body, 4x 1d6 attacks, pounce and flight it easily outclasses both our Paladin and Inquisitor, whom are melee powerhouses with two-handed weapons. Not to mention the 26AC it will receive once Mage Armor has been cast on it.
While it doesn't quite reach up to the burst-damage that our pyromaniac dragon-sorcerer can duke out, or the battlefield control our Transmuter can lay out, it's only one part of the Summoner, whom can sit back and cast spells through wands as well as cast very powerful buffs(Haste right now).
The players are level 5 and haven't yet gotten the more optimized magic items, but this thing easily outdamages most, and can fly AND pounce to boot. My players are getting a little annoyed at it and the summoner, and I don't have any answers to them other than "apparently it falls off in later levels", but that's a small comfort.
Wait, it has a bipedal body and pounce? The pounce ability requires quadruped.
A eidolon can't have pounce and be a bipedal:
Pounce (Ex): An eidolon gains quick reflexes, allowing it to make a full attack after a charge. This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form."With a strength of 22, bipedal body, 4x 1d6 attacks, pounce and flight it easily"
There ya go, son, problem solved!
I'd still go ahead and post the build, because we thought we caught everything the first go round with my old party's eidolon. It was tip o' the iceberg.
also the edilion and the summoner share item slots. May or may not be the issue, but they can't both wear magic belts (for example). One OR the othere can wear a belt of strength. yada yada yada.
That may help.
Sorry that was my bad, the Eidolon is quadruple. But I'll give you its sheet so you can see if any mistakes have been made:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1171048/Eidolon.pdf
|
Dont have time to do a full analysis, but a quick glance over the Eidolon sees plenty wrong. Without knowing gear or the build of the summoner, I;ve noticed the following:
1) to many attacks, cap at 5th level is 4 attacks, you have 5 (bite and 4x claws)
2) str is too high. with +1 for level and +2 from the evoloution, thats 19 str
3) too many evoloutions. you've used 9 points when you only have 8 to spend. could be from the extra evo point feat tho, but again i dont have th summoners build
4)you took claws twice, which in and of itself is fine, you get 2, but because of the cap you can make one of the two it gives you. However, you took improved damage claws and applied it to ALL claw attacks. It only applies to one SET. IE with 4 claw attacks, one set would be made at 1d6 and the other would be 1d4.
5) Con is 4 points to high from what I can tell, should be at 13, not 17. This will cause the Eidiolon to lose 8 HP to drop to 24.
6) i see 3 feats (imp initiative, dodge, multi attack) when he should only have 2.
Again, this is from a quick 5 minute check, so i might have missed some things or mistakenly pointed out something as an error. Every time ive seen a post about how the eidolon is broken, its come down to the eidolon not being built properly. Take that for what its worth.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
24 HP at level 5? Just blast him a few times with spells. Two scorching rays on average will take him out. An encounter with two casters won't be out of the ordinary, and when they see the beast tearing apart their mooks, they'll focus fire. Bam, eidolon gone and summoner learns that it isn't invincible.
|
|
Not true. They have two free Limbs evolutions, so given an appropriate number of maximum attacks, they can buy the Claws evolution twice. (The phrasing only indicates they need Limbs evolutions at least equal to the number of Claws evolutions.)
This is correct. You need 1 evolution(legs) for each claw evolution you take. You get two free, so you can buy 2, one for each set.
| 15 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Have developers or other officials come out and stated that the Improved Natural Weapon evolution only applies to a single attack, rather than an attack type?
I'm of the opinion that picking it for claws would apply to ALL claws, for example.
Thanks for all the feedback. I will take these points and raise them with the Summoner. He does have the Extra Evolution feat, which would explain the 9 evolution points.
I don't think he has any magic items that is effecting the Eidolon. Bracers of Armor and cloak of resistance, but the armor would not stack with mage armor and I'm pretty sure he's aware of that.
Anyway, will have to talk to him and we'll go through these things to make sure they are correct. 19 strength, the ac decrease, the heightened damage on only one set of claws and the -8 hp is quite significant changes!
I didn't quite follow the discussion about the extra claw/extra limb evolution. I remember him telling me the Eidolon got a pair of limbs for free from quadruple body, and that allowed him to put another set of claws on it.
Anyway the 4 attack thing is correct, he knows and uses only 4 attacks, but with an extra set of claws and a bite he has the ability to use either the bite or the claws, so I think he just listed them to know he can make one of the four attacks as piercing if he needs to. He doesn't need multiattack to use that, claws and bite are both counted as primary attacks right?
Have developers or other officials come out and stated that the Improved Natural Weapon evolution only applies to a single attack, rather than an attack type?
I'm of the opinion that picking it for claws would apply to ALL claws, for example.
I agree with this. The evolution has the same wording as the feat Improved Natural Attack, which applies to all instances of 'claws' on a creature.
Hmm but surely he can have 4 attacks, two claws from his body type as well as a bite, and one claw from his added attack = 4 in total?
Edit: No, not included buffs. I remember us claiming at todays session that his strength would be 26 with bulls strength added to it, something I thought was insane at level 5 for anything player controlled.
The irony of it was that it got one-shoted by a giant with 26 strength just after that.
|
Apart from all the errors in the character sheet, of which I didn't know because I have yet to play a summoner, how about just hitting the thing with a will save or suck. One Eidolon out of the picture.
I like confuse, because then the thing might turn around and attack them. Oops! Dismiss the eidolon! now!
|
|
This is very different from how I read the claws evolution.
Claws (Ex)
An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once. This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.
Emphasis mine, but the way that I read this is that you must have one set of limbs for each claw attack you take (as everyone else has said) but that you may never buy more than one set of claws that are attached to Limbs (legs). Given that the quadruped begins with only limbs legs, a quadruped would need to purchase another type of limbs in order to attach claws.
Otherwise the bolded sentence would not have ever been included, since claws is only taken once per set of limbs whether they be arms or legs. It is clearly meant as an additional restriction on the use of the legs evolution and how often legs can possess claws that are usable in combat.
Hm, that makes sense now that I think about it. Claws are 2 primary attacks for 1 evo point, a very good deal. It seems to be a way to make it more in line with the cost of other primary attacks, which are 2 evo points from what I can see: Gore, Slam, etc. Makes sense to me!
Presuming you allow him to add a second set of claws without more limbs, yes, you could also allow that.
per the RAW, he can only buy claws once, which only provides the two attacks. Quadruped Eidolon only comes with a free Bite attack.
Hmm, are you sure about that? The way I see it, the Quadruple body gains the Limbs(Leg) evolution twice, thus it shouldn't be a problem for it to take the claws evolution twice as well, for a grand total of 4 claw attacks.
The limbs evolution clearly says you gain a pair of limbs, and the claws evolution says you get two claw attacks that needs to be placed on corresponding limbs. So one limbs evolution, one claw evolution, two attacks, or am I missing something?
While you're free to house rule it that he can have claws on the ends of all his legs and attack with them simultaneously, it's important to consider the physicality of how that would be achieved. There's no point of solid contact with the ground if it's attacking with all limbs, meaning it would be off balance and couldn't really put it's full weight behind any of the attacks.
That argument falls somewhat flat if you realise that a biped eidolon can take claws on hands and feet and can indeed attack with all 4 in the same round, causing the same problem.
However, I guess the reason for this sentence is: Legs add +10 landspeed already. Arms don't add anything except the possibility to add new claws or slam attacks.
If you could apply them to all your leg-evolutions too, then why ever take more than 1 arm evolution (so you can manipulate things), and all the rest as legs? 100 base speed and 14 claw attacks! YAY (ok, exagerating, i know you cant have 14 attacks)
While you're free to house rule it that he can have claws on the ends of all his legs and attack with them simultaneously, it's important to consider the physicality of how that would be achieved. There's no point of solid contact with the ground if it's attacking with all limbs, meaning it would be off balance and couldn't really put it's full weight behind any of the attacks.That argument falls somewhat flat if you realise that a biped eidolon can take claws on hands and feet and can indeed attack with all 4 in the same round, causing the same problem.
However, I guess the reason for this sentence is: Legs add +10 landspeed already. Arms don't add anything except the possibility to add new claws or slam attacks.
If you could apply them to all your leg-evolutions too, then why ever take more than 1 arm evolution (so you can manipulate things), and all the rest as legs? 100 base speed and 14 claw attacks! YAY (ok, exagerating, i know you cant have 14 attacks)
I see your point, and the only thing I can think having several arms is good for is bonus to grapple(I think you get bonus to that if you have more arms), as well as giving the eidolon martial weapons. I guess a bipedal golem-like eidolon weilding 4 swords is pretty cool, though it'll have some big penalties on that.
Quadruped Eidolon body seems vastly superior to the other forms however, which is sort of sad. Both the speed as well as pounce is quadruped only, and they get access to many attacks. But the way I see it, there is no problem putting 2x claws on either a bipedal or a quadruped Eidolon.
|
I see your point, and the only thing I can think having several arms is good for is bonus to grapple(I think you get bonus to that if you have more arms), as well as giving the eidolon martial weapons. I guess a bipedal golem-like eidolon weilding 4 swords is pretty cool, though it'll have some big penalties on that.
Quadruped Eidolon body seems vastly superior to the other forms however, which is sort of sad. Both the speed as well as pounce is quadruped only, and they get access to many attacks. But the way I see it, there is no problem putting 2x claws on either a bipedal or a quadruped Eidolon.
Logically how is the quadruped using all 4 claws? I mean, are they sitting on their butt flailing away? Cats have 4 claws, but they stand on two of them and swing with two unless they are prone last time I checked.
(goes off to poke the cat)
Yup, that is how quadrupeds with 4 claws work.
Then how does biped with claws at arms and legs work (because that's completely legal), how do they do 4 claws/round?
As for how cats do it: Jump in your face, claw in with all 4 and scratch you up good :)
I see your point, and the only thing I can think having several arms is good for is bonus to grapple(I think you get bonus to that if you have more arms), as well as giving the eidolon martial weapons. I guess a bipedal golem-like eidolon weilding 4 swords is pretty cool, though it'll have some big penalties on that.
I'm pretty sure there's a rule somewhere that creatures with more than 4 arms can still only use 2 weapons at the same time. Don't find it right now though.
What kind of penalties would they take on their additional attacks? Without feat just a off-hand weapon is at a -10 and a -6 for the mainhand! Now imagine two more weapons to coordinateWhat you MAYBE could do is dual wield two two-handed weapons (at the -4/-4 for not using a light off-hand) but thats completely GM rule territory I'd say.
Ciretose: I do not agree, your logic is based on the assumption that the two of them are standing stationary in front of each other trading blows. Combat is not static and the rules of combat are highly abstract.
I can see the attack happening in several ways. It already has pounce so it's already clinging on the enemy with all 4, and combat is hardly just standing still and delivering blow left and forth. It will move around, strike at each other left and right.
And this is an Eidolon we're talking about, depending on how you fluff it, it might have twistable limbs, extendable limbs or whatnot. Heck it might spin around in combat and kick with the hindlegs like a horse after its delivered its first frontal blows. The rules lets it have 4 claws on its 4 limbs unless I'm mistaken, the logic of the attacks is up for the DM and the summoner to figure out.
Allia: I'd say a combination of striking with its arms and then kicking with its leg-claws. All attacks are not delivered in unison, so for an action-combat description, it might just make two swipes with its armclaws, then kick and tear with one legclaw at the time.
|
|
Ciretose: I do not agree, your logic is based on the assumption that the two of them are standing stationary in front of each other trading blows. Combat is not static and the rules of combat are highly abstract.
I can see the attack happening in several ways. It already has pounce so it's already clinging on the enemy with all 4, and combat is hardly just standing still and delivering blow left and forth. It will move around, strike at each other left and right.
And this is an Eidolon we're talking about, depending on how you fluff it, it might have twistable limbs, extendable limbs or whatnot. Heck it might spin around in combat and kick with the hindlegs like a horse after its delivered its first frontal blows. The rules lets it have 4 claws on its 4 limbs unless I'm mistaken, the logic of the attacks is up for the DM and the summoner to figure out.
By your logic, why shouldn't a biped get two kick attacks? I mean, combat isn't static, maybe I swing and then do a backflip and kick all ninja style.
You said yourself it gives the quadruped an advantage. Why should it?
Yep, by RAW and most likely RAI you can take the claws evolution for legs only ONCE. For the reason I mentioned above, because legs already give a bonus already, namely +10 speed, while arms don't have any advantage except that you can add claws to it later.
Yes, you can hold weapons in your hands, but you only need 2 for that.
So lets take a look, if it worked like you think:
Biped creature, claws at feet, two weapons in its hands, bite attack.
It makes a full attack, so swings its weapons according to BAB, off hand like TWF feats it has, 2 claws and bite at -5. (or -2 if you have multiattack)
Now you want it to have two more claws. You can either get arms+claws or legs+claws. Both cost you 3 evo points. Arms+claws gives you... 2 claws. Legs+claws would give you 2 claws AND 10 landspeed.
Why would you ever want more than 2 hands in that situation? Ever. If you don't make attacks with weapons, heck, even 2 hands are too many, better take another leg for it.
What you can do: Put slam on the 2nd pair of legs for example. Theres no limit on slam attacks.
Edit: NVM, missed the part about it being arm only as well. Yep seems arms are intended to be the weapon evolution and legs being speed. Legs also add to CMD vs trip and such.
D20PFSRD wrote:Claws (Ex)
An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once. This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.
Thank you, this is what I was asking for originally. I missed the part where it said you could only apply it once to the limbs(legs) evolution. Clearly they have intended it so that you only do have claws on your forelegs if you are quadruped.
Thus the quadruped Eidolon won't be having more than 2 claw attacks and one bite attack? If it wants more attack it could take slam attacks on its other legs, tentacles, or wings.
Rake (Ex)
An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form. This evolution counts as one natural attack toward the eidolon’s maximum. The summoner must be at least 4th level before selecting this evolution.
Because you need rake to put claws on your back feet.
There, we have adjusted everything now. Although AC and Dexterity should still be the same. 14 dex from quadruped, +2 increase for 4HD. AC is correct at 22. +2 quadruped, +4 level, +2 improved armor, +3 dex +1 dodge
Thanks for all the help, it seems much more down to earth now with much less HP and only 3 primary attacks at 1d6+4. It's still a lot of damage, but I think the Paladin and Inquisitor will be able to reach those soon enough they get some better magic weapons.
|
|
The summoner in my group has a quadraped eidolon that he mounts in combat. Here's the eidolon's stats.
If he is on the eidolon, attack him, not the eidolon. I wish they had made the summoner d6/no armor/ 1/2 BAB, but he is still vulnerable if he is riding along.
Also make sure he is taking all the penalties for casting while riding.
The eidelon's will save is awful, which primes him for dismissal.
Also, small spaces like dungeons or buildings...problematic for large creatures.
Ok... First thing. Go through the evolutions that your summoner has taken. Double check each ones price and required level. Because those changed in between the play test and the APG. The play test summoner was a LOT more powerful.
Most common mistake is that people take an evolution before they are a high enough level to actually do so, or they take it more times than they can.
Recheck the rules on Summon Monster, the wording is tricky. A lot of the higher level summon monsters stop giving the option to summon multiples of lower level summoners. It's not quite the massive pyramid scheme it was during 3.5
It states in the rules that a Summoner can only have 1 summon monster spell active at a time. It specifically states that if he summons a new monster it dismisses the previous one.
Summon Monster VI specifically states that he can summon either 1d3 Summon Monster V monsters of 1d4+1 of a lower level list. Which means if he goes all the way back to Summon Monster I, he can still ONLY summon up to 5 LVL I summoned monsters. If you're worried about this getting abused, as the DM you have the right to roll the dice to see how many monsters he manages to summon yourself, because that part of the spell is outside his control. (Nothing in the rules indicates that he can apply metamagic to his spell-like abilities)
Granted, at Summon Level VI he can summon 1d3 large elementals. If you're worried he's abusing the situation a simple house-rule to implement is that he can't summon any monster whose alignment is not within 1 step of his.
It also says that summoned monsters can't use spells or spell like abilities with expensive material components. Eschew Materials only allows you to ignore components that cost less than 1gp so you could use THAT as the definition for material components. In which case, look up the spell he wants his summons to cast and make sure it doesn't cost more than a gold. If it does, sorry, can't cast it.
Eidolon's can get pretty powerful, but they're still Outsiders. They're very vulnerable to Dismissal, Banishment and Planar Binding spells, spells that affect outsiders. So look into those spells and consider where your party might run into those.
Also keep in mind that an Eidolon cannot remain summoned while a Summoner is asleep or unconscious or dead. Even the feat Resilient Eidolon only lets it remain for a handful of ROUNDS... so every time your summoner takes a nap his Eidolon goes POOF and it takes a minute to resummon. So if they have an intelligent THINKING enemy it makes sense that that enemy would wait until the Summoner's Eidolon is returned to its own plane.
Also, keep in mind that Eidolon's are still vulnerable to ability score damage and hard to repair. Which means that poisons, curses and such all still affect them. They also usually have ABYSMAL Will Saves and the count as sentient. So something like Geas or Quest could affect them. Same with Hypnotic Pattern, etc.
|
|
And as for attacking the summoner rather than eidolon, his AC and HP is above average in the party, and riding a flying creature helps him avoid attacks..
He shouldn't be, he can only wear light armor and has d8 hit points.
Also, being on a flying creature, he is going to need a lot of ride checks to do pretty much anything.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/ride