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What is the worst rules subversion/cheese build a player has ever tried to get into one of your games.
Example: Back in 3.5 we had a player who chose necromancy as a forbidden school back when he didn't care at 1st level. As we moved into the mid-teens he told the DM he wanted to be a Lich. The DM asked how he would be able to do that when he couldn't cast necromancy spells, and he tried to argue (with a straight face) that transformation into a lich wasn't specifically labeled as necromancy and so it wasn't clear that it would involve necromancy spells.
The worst I can remember (having tried to force myself to forget all the infuriating things former players have done) was also during a 3.5 campaign.
One character had been grabbed onto by a large monster, and was pulled into the creature's space (PC sitting in the monster's mouth)
Then mr. "but the rules don't specifically say..." throws a cone shaped emanation and insists that the rules don't specifically say that the PC isn't only in 1 of the 4 squares that the large creature occupies when the two are sharing eachother's space, so he is able to hit just the squares of the large creature that the PC isn't in...
That sounds pretty reasonable. The PC doesn't occupy all the squares that the monster does. The dude flinging the cone just chooses to fire it at a spot that the PC aint at. Regardless of if there's facing or not, the PC occupies 1 square (if he's medium).
What's wrong with that?
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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[The description that combats involve a series of feints, various movements, and even the exact reason that facing was removed from the game - there is constant motion in combat that is not accounted for by miniature movement or dice rolls.
Effectively, applying the logic that he could target the larger creature with the PC in it's mouth negates the need for rules such as taking a -4 penalty for firing a missile weapon into a melee.
He should not be able to target just the monster with an area effect, just like a bow wielder cannot avoid the -4 penalty just by getting on the opposite side of their target from their ally that is adjacent to it.
tl;dr version - allowing a cone to selectively target in this situation, while not specifically prohibited, goes against the established spirit of the rules made evident by the rules that apply to firing into melee.
I've always ruled that a bow wielder can avoid the -4 for firing into melee when shooting large craetures if he can target a space that is not adjacent to anyone. It makes no sense to me that he could target someone standing 10 feet away with no penalty, but not the end of a monster 10 feet long (if no one is standing next to that end). The archer must still have line of sight to the space he wants to shoot.
On topic, I had a lot of players try crazy things from Complete Book of Elves and Complete Bard's Handbook back in 2e. I recall something about a half-drow, half-grey elf that got drow SR and spell like abilities but lacked light sensitivity and got the grey elf stat boosts or some such cheese. We still make jokes about it to this day - "My new concept is a half-svirfneblin, half-weredolphin with all the advantages of both and all the disadvantages of neither."
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I always side with the "fluff" over the "crunch" when it comes to rules adjudication, which is probably why we disagree about avoid the -4 penalty in this way...
you see a creature that has 4 squares, some of which are and some of which aren't adjacent to another creature that only has 1 square - I see two creatures of differing size that occupy one space each that are adjacent to each other.
Strangely, I consider my ruling to be a "fluff" style ruling - it makes no sense to me that I have a penalty shooting an animated barn because my friend happens to be on the far side of it hitting it with a sword.
It's less a "squares" thing, more a "some parts of the huge creature are so far away from my friends that I don't have to be as careful not to hit them."
Even more reason not to allow skirting the rules by targeting the squares that a large creature occupies that aren't adjacent to your ally.
Skirting the rules? How about an SRD quote!
"If your target (or the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you're aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character."
So RAW, you can do exactly that! Target part of the enemy which is out of melee that is, so long as its not adjacent to them. And since grappling creatures dont occupy the same squares, this will actually come up quite a bit against large or bigger targets.
A Psionic Thri-Kreen Monk with the Vow of Poverty.
A Half Giant with an oversized spiked chain, combat reflexes, Improved Trip, and Whirlwind Attack. (He had other things too, but basically controlled about 35 squares around him with his weapon.)
I've had players who, having problems dealing with enemy archers shooting from cover, try to say that since the object is interposed between both the archer and the target, that the cover bonuses also apply to them.
A summoner who had:
More evolution points than possible by RAW.
Evolutions before he could reasonably get them.
Summoner Class features before he hit said level.
Augment Summoning impacting his Eidolon.
Full BAB and HD on Eidolon.
No Penalty for fighting with natural and manufactured weapons.
Extra Feats
Extra Natural Attacks
Never took concentration checks while mounted on Eidolon, and in combat.
All Spells known per-level
Standard Action Enlarge Person
Old Gnome that didn't incur aging penalties, only bonuses.
Indefinite Bond Senses.
And a whole slew of other things that I don't remember right now. He got away with it too, for the most part, and it took us all a while to catch on to what was going on because no one really knew how the Summoner Worked in terms of mechanics, so we took him on good faith.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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oohh.
Playing Mud Sorcerer's Tomb, rewritten by a DM who was a fan. Built one shot characters. I knew the XPH would be out soon, and we knew it was fixing all the broken combos, so I took them for a test spin.
Psychic Warrior, Deep Impact, Keen Falchion, Power Attack, Mindfeeder.
We encountered the stone golems, and after I got my first crit (activating Mindfeeder) it became Deep Impact, full out Power attack, Quicken Powered buffs, knowing my temporary pool would recharge with each crit. It was like Phoenix and Wolverine had a love child.
I felt dirty after, and while I think they went too far the other direction with Mindfeeder, it was obscene.
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A summoner who had:
More evolution points than possible by RAW.
Evolutions before he could reasonably get them.
Summoner Class features before he hit said level.
Augment Summoning impacting his Eidolon.
Full BAB and HD on Eidolon.
No Penalty for fighting with natural and manufactured weapons.
Extra Feats
Extra Natural Attacks
Never took concentration checks while mounted on Eidolon, and in combat.
All Spells known per-level
Standard Action Enlarge Person
Old Gnome that didn't incur aging penalties, only bonuses.
Indefinite Bond Senses.And a whole slew of other things that I don't remember right now. He got away with it too, for the most part, and it took us all a while to catch on to what was going on because no one really knew how the Summoner Worked in terms of mechanics, so we took him on good faith.
I don't think I would allow a summoner in most games that don't start from low level, as trying to track a full build at higher levels without progression is a nightmare.
That class is a cheese builders wet dream.
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On topic, I had a lot of players try crazy things from Complete Book of Elves and Complete Bard's Handbook back in 2e. I recall something about a half-drow, half-grey elf that got drow SR and spell like abilities but lacked light sensitivity and got the grey elf stat boosts or some such cheese. We still make jokes about it to this day - "My new concept is a half-svirfneblin, half-weredolphin with all the advantages of both and all the disadvantages of neither."
Wouldn't a half-svirfneblin, half-weredolphin (Old English wer root aside) be just a weredolphin svirfneblin?
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On topic, I had a lot of players try crazy things from Complete Book of Elves and Complete Bard's Handbook back in 2e. I recall something about a half-drow, half-grey elf that got drow SR and spell like abilities but lacked light sensitivity and got the grey elf stat boosts or some such cheese. We still make jokes about it to this day - "My new concept is a half-svirfneblin, half-weredolphin with all the advantages of both and all the disadvantages of neither."Wouldn't a half-svirfneblin, half-weredolphin (Old English wer root aside) be just a weredolphin svirneblin?
sverdolblin?
or maybe a svirndolphin ... kinda like a labradoodle ...
On topic, I had a lot of players try crazy things from Complete Book of Elves and Complete Bard's Handbook back in 2e. I recall something about a half-drow, half-grey elf that got drow SR and spell like abilities but lacked light sensitivity and got the grey elf stat boosts or some such cheese. We still make jokes about it to this day - "My new concept is a half-svirfneblin, half-weredolphin with all the advantages of both and all the disadvantages of neither."Wouldn't a half-svirfneblin, half-weredolphin (Old English wer root aside) be just a weredolphin svirneblin?sverdolblin?
or maybe a svirndolphin ... kinda like a labradoodle ...
dolbnelphrin...svolphnebphin...
I can beat that! i once played a vanaran ninja (ultimate warrior) in 3.5
when were were kidnapped and forced to fight on darksun in the "pits" all i would do was turn invisible. stab people then turn invisible, and hide.
i managed to escape, and terrorize the villagers killing innocent people, my excuse was that if i am enslaved all rules are off and by watching the arena these people are culpable for my slavery and there fore evil by association. when he brought in the hook to "free us form slavery buying us so we could go off world". i jumped the table wrapped my manacles around his neck and screamed "no man is my master" and snapped his neck killing the entire story hook. basically the dm gave up. I later realized i was being a super jerk and apologized. but i completely abused those invisible rules and my alignment.
A Psionic Thri-Kreen Monk with the Vow of Poverty.
A Half Giant with an oversized spiked chain, combat reflexes, Improved Trip, and Whirlwind Attack. (He had other things too, but basically controlled about 35 squares around him with his weapon.)
I played that put had Large and In Charge, which stops an advancing creature if struck with an AoO. Uber-cheese.
My friend in our most recent game rolled a 2nd level monk, and somehow forgot that Weapon Finesse and Improved Natural Attack had BAB requirements. He was upset the DM made him change them.
Come on, TOZ... Weapon Finesse had that removed. Get out of your dinosaur game. ;)
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#weapon-finesse
once had a pc, who played a strange class i had never had heard off
so he basicly would bargain with outsiders, and get things like armor or flame or what ever.
we were all in the room, and he caught on fire and started shooting, fire out of his hands, when we asked him where he go that fire he said with a straight face "what fire" the whole game he would crazy strange things like get random platemail, and say "ooh this old thing had it for ever"
it got to the point where we killed him, because we didn't trust him, to the end he refused to explain his class feature out of game or in game.
so when we could of saved him IN GAME we let him die. turns out the class was some crazy class that was hunted by the church for blasphemous so he was playing his character. but if he had just shared, it would all been good were a frickin party.
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Come on, TOZ... Weapon Finesse had that removed. Get out of your dinosaur game. ;)http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#weapon-finesse
The DM wanted straight 3.5, and since I was only playing for one session while on R&R, it wasn't my place to argue. :P
As for my own exploits, I picked up Corwyl: Village of the Wood Elves from Green Ronin and brought it to my current DM at the time. I asked if I could use the Terellian Knight class with my wood elf character. He okayed it, but only for first level, since I was traveling away from Corwyl and could not get the training for further levels.
That was fine by me, since I ended up with +1 BAB, d8 HD, Two Weapon Fighting, Uncanny Dodge, and a +1 bonus to Init and AC. Then multiclassed Complete Adventurer Scout and got Improved Uncanny Dodge at 3rd level.
But boy did I work for it in that campaign.
once let a player play a jedi knight in my 3.5 campaign (crashed spaceship) not as awesome as you would think but the whole light saber rules were a pain in the ass. he was cutting through every thing and every one.
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I played a chitin fighter...man that was painful at high levels...i had some...hmmm...14 attacks. That took a lot of rolling. Four arms, multiweapon fighting, improved multiweapon fighting* and greater ,mulitweapon fighting* are a b***h. I pretty much annihilated anything i got into contact with. And since i had the highest dexterity (rogue was int based) and improved initiative, i almost always went first.
I still have that character sheet somewhere.
*The DM invented those two. We played a 3.5 game.
There was also the point where my VoP Epic-level Monk took the Saint template, and I asked if the Wis Bonus to AC from the template stacked with the Monks' Wis Bonus. He said yes. :)
As well he should have. Saint gives an Insight bonus, while the Monk's bonus is untyped.
I played a chitin fighter...man that was painful at high levels...i had some...hmmm...14 attacks. That took a lot of rolling. Four arms, multiweapon fighting, improved multiweapon fighting* and greater ,mulitweapon fighting* are a b***h. I pretty much annihilated anything i got into contact with. And since i had the highest dexterity (rogue was int based) and improved initiative, i almost always went first.
I still have that character sheet somewhere.
*The DM invented those two. We played a 3.5 game.
I'm pretty sure he got them from Mongoose's Expert Player's Guide Volume III: Epic Monsters. It's got some decent feats; I'm partial to the Planar Harbinger feats myself.
Edit:
Oh, and the worst subversion I've run into was when the player with the Vow of Poverty/Vow of Non-violence monk tried to convince everyone that any construct that hit him should shatter because it was a "manufactured weapon."
Since I didn't feel like arguing about it for a year and a day (he was one of those kind of players), I let him knock two of the arms off a Juggernaut. Then the dwarven mummy lord swarm shifter Crusader with the Tome of Battle school-specific Human Bane sword hiding inside the juggernaut swarmed out of it and killed him.
Many, everyone was glad to see that PC go.
"Greater insightful strike!" and "Ruby nightmare blade!" on alternating rounds... Yes, a warblade. I know it's not a rules subversion... but have you considered how massive that damage is? Euh. *shudders*
but have you considered how massive that damage is?Er, no. How massive is it?
My warblade is keen, has a x4 crit, and does 4d20 damage.
"Greater insightful strike!" and "Ruby nightmare blade!" on alternating rounds... Yes, a warblade. I know it's not a rules subversion... but have you considered how massive that damage is? Euh. *shudders*
Eh, kinda like doing a full attack each round, but you get to do the walkie-walkie in between?
EDIT: Oh, and worst (I say best) rules subversion- I got my DM to rule that since Gnomish Twist-Cloth and Battle Cloak have +0 armor bonuses, they count as clothing instead of armor. Yay for Ninjas with 40 touch AC at 12th lvl. :)
A Psionic Thri-Kreen Monk with the Vow of Poverty.
A Half Giant with an oversized spiked chain, combat reflexes, Improved Trip, and Whirlwind Attack. (He had other things too, but basically controlled about 35 squares around him with his weapon.)
What's wrong with these?
The DM asked how he would be able to do that when he couldn't cast necromancy spells, and he tried to argue (with a straight face) that transformation into a lich wasn't specifically labeled as necromancy and so it wasn't clear that it would involve necromancy spells.
Honestly, I don't see the problem with this. I mean, it's perfectly within reason for the DM to say that lichdom requires casting _____(Necromancy), so he can't do it. On the other hand, since, to the best of my knowledge, the lich creation method is intentionally vague. There's no reason why it shouldn't be much more ritual-oriented, and not requiring specific spells, much less necromantic ones.
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Pole Arm + Spiked Armor = AOO against any target in 10" sweep.
I know it is technically legal by the rules (at least in 3.5), but it drove me crazy when a player of mine pulled this stunt. It completely destroyed my ability to have fun playing the game, mostly because I did SCA and boffer fighting for years, and always used pole arms, so I had a really good idea of exactly how utterly impossible that particular combination is.
What is the worst rules subversion/cheese build a player has ever tried to get into one of your games.
Example: Back in 3.5 we had a player who chose necromancy as a forbidden school back when he didn't care at 1st level. As we moved into the mid-teens he told the DM he wanted to be a Lich. The DM asked how he would be able to do that when he couldn't cast necromancy spells, and he tried to argue (with a straight face) that transformation into a lich wasn't specifically labeled as necromancy and so it wasn't clear that it would involve necromancy spells.
The actual procedure for the transformation is left open so a way to have someone do part of the procedure is possible, but a Lich that does not use Necromancy just seems inappropriate from a conceptual point of view to me. He would need a good reason to convince me to even consider it.
The actual procedure for the transformation is left open so a way to have someone do part of the procedure is possible, but a Lich that does not use Necromancy just seems inappropriate from a conceptual point of view to me. He would need a good reason to convince me to even consider it.What is the worst rules subversion/cheese build a player has ever tried to get into one of your games.
Example: Back in 3.5 we had a player who chose necromancy as a forbidden school back when he didn't care at 1st level. As we moved into the mid-teens he told the DM he wanted to be a Lich. The DM asked how he would be able to do that when he couldn't cast necromancy spells, and he tried to argue (with a straight face) that transformation into a lich wasn't specifically labeled as necromancy and so it wasn't clear that it would involve necromancy spells.
If turning ones self into an undead creature doesn't SCREAM necromancy then I must have seriously missed something.
If turning ones self into an undead creature doesn't SCREAM necromancy then I must have seriously missed something.See, there's this transmutation spell in UM....
It doesn't make you undead. It gives you similar characteristics and temporarily at that. I don't want to get into the logic of magic debate, because beating one's head against a wall is more productive.
yes you can make transforming oneself into a lich an enchantment if you really want to, but it doesn't fit thematically (which is all magic really is).
necromancy school specifically deals with undead
Lich=Undead
Its really not that great of a stretch.
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Back in 3.5: I remember a game run by my brother when he was younger (oddly enough). He had played it solo for a while, getting his halfling rogue (who never used sneak attack and acted like a fighter) Eldon up to a respectable level. I joined with a half-dragon (bronze, brass, or copper - probably bronze) lizardfolk sorcerer named Sempspawn. We hadn't figured out level adjustments and HD yet, so I somehow ended up higher level than the rogue. We basically went around in random dungeons, picking up PCs along the way. We ran into a couple goblins who begged for their lives, so I dubbed them Hobby and Gobby. Hobby ran away, but Gobby took a level of druid and I got to play him as a PC (not actually against the rules, just filling things in). When we went back to town, Sempspawn would use Craft (alchemy) and make magic items, while Eldon would wander around town stealing stuff. He once stole a water clock with Sleight of Hand, then lugged it back to our base. We had altercations with the town guard (Gobby was wrongfully imprisoned, so "we" {really just Sempspawn} basically went on a killing spree of the unstatted town guard and magically found a ton of loot in their attic). Eldon bought a +5 full plate. We picked up an ice devil character with one of my brother's friends. Eventually I realised that Eldon had been rolled with 4d6 - but without taking away the lowest! So he had like 30 AC at some random level.
Gark,
Explosive runes has to be read in order to go off.
Gark,
Explosive runes has to be read in order to go off.
Or have a failed dispel or erase, thus creating the fabled explosive runes bomb. >_> <_<
Or have a failed dispel or erase, thus creating the fabled explosive runes bomb. >_> <_<Gark,
Explosive runes has to be read in order to go off.
Just read up on that. Apparently you can erase two pages with one erase spell. hummm...
Shopping list:
Explosive rune's on notecards (stapled in pairs)
Wand of Erase
*Wrings hands deviously**
Or have a failed dispel or erase, thus creating the fabled explosive runes bomb. >_> <_<Gark,
Explosive runes has to be read in order to go off.
Just read up on that. Apparently you can erase two pages with one erase spell. hummm...
Shopping list:
Explosive rune's on notecards (stapled in pairs)
Wand of Erase*Wrings hands deviously**
No, what you want is a bunch of blank pieces of paper, on which you inscribe explosive runes every night with any remaining spell slots (or any spell slots you didn't prep if a wizard). These use your own caster level, of course. Then you tie them all together, or wrap them around a rock, or something that facilitates throwing (wrapping them around an arrow or crossbow bolt is a nice touch too - that's the explosive runes cruise missile), and get a wand of dispel magic at its lowest caster level. Cast an area dispel - sure, some of the runes will get actually dispelled, but most will fail the check and go boom. ^_-
If turning ones self into an undead creature doesn't SCREAM necromancy then I must have seriously missed something.
Okay, I'm going to go ahead and say it: this is an edition thing.
In early D&D eds, magical item creation was much more costly and much more fantastical. The writers were pulling (in my read) from the Norse Sagas, specifically the forging of the chain to hold Fenris Wolf. In 3, magic item creation became much more mechanical (and accessible!) to the point that, in PF, it's basically assumed that PCs are going to be making magic.
Specifically, now, a magic item is an item that's the sum of its components, and those components are spells. So now, it's much more like lich...has it's soul in a special component somewhere else...so, magic jar then?
But that's not necessarily the case. If you look at the published materials, even Pazio's recent undead guide, there's nothing about it that says Liches need necromancy spells. It's more about the ritual, and (as a brief survey of the web shows) the process towards evil that is brought about by that ritual.
It seems to me that the defining characteristic of a lich isn't his undead nature. It's intelligence, dedication, and corruption. Looked at another way, a lich is undead as happenstance to the lich's attempt at immortality. It's a big, momentous thing, not just a necromancer Prestige class. You are not casting 'Create Greater Undead, Self.'
That so, I take no issue with the DMs call. It is reasonable to the point of self-obvious. I just don't think that the player suggesting it rises to the level of outright derision.