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Precedent within the rules show that the serpentine Behir has legs and is untrippable (I can't believe it took half a page before someone pointed it out). The serpentine base form Mr. Wiggly with legs remains untrippable.
However, pounce is restricted within the Eidolon rules set to be for Quadraped base form only. So no matter how many legs you give Mr. Wiggly he cannot pounce.
--Schoolhouse Vrock
The serpentine base form Mr. Wiggly with legs remains untrippable.
Please state why (with reference to actual rules if possible)?
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I am making an eidolon for my summoner character. I start off with the serpentine base form because, hey, constrict is pretty powerful.
Eidolons of the serpentine form, like all snake-like creatures, are immune to trip attempts and the prone condition in general.
But I want a FAST eidolon too, so I give it the legs evolution twice. It now has four legs and a speed of 40 feet.
Is it still immune to trips?
Can it still benefit from the constrict and/or pounce evolutions?
You'd get a big IDGAF since I don't allow Summoner PC's... and I'd add this to the list of reasons why... which is usually met with a "The problem isn't with the Summoner. Its with the misunderstanding of the people who play them."
I agree. Which is why I don't let people play them. Non-people are allowed. Players are people. Player Characters are played by people. Non Player Characters are thus played by non-people. Problem solved (and I tend to use them only when the written module or AP includes them... I don't make them to go nanner nanner at my players).
I am making an eidolon for my summoner character. I start off with the serpentine base form because, hey, constrict is pretty powerful.Eidolons of the serpentine form, like all snake-like creatures, are immune to trip attempts and the prone condition in general.
Correct. Without legs, the Eidolon is immune to tripping, as per the reference at the end of Trip on p201 in the Core rulebook.
"Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and f lying creatures—cannot be tripped."
But I want a FAST eidolon too, so I give it the legs evolution twice. It now has four legs and a speed of 40 feet.Is it still immune to trips?
No. The Serpentine form is not immune to trips. Having no legs (again, see p201) makes it immune to trips. Giving it legs makes it then, trippable.
Can it still benefit from the constrict and/or pounce evolutions?Explain your answers and the reasoning behind them.
Yes, it can have constrict. No, it cannot have pounce. Evolutions are strictly tied to the way they are written (p60, APG) where it says "Some evolutions require that the eidolon have a specific base form or the summoner be of a specific level before they can be chosen." The base form is what matters, not the evolutions added. Note that on p62 of the APG it states quite clearly "This evolution is only available to eidolons of the serpentine base form." Not much room for argument there.
Pounce, likewise (p60, APG) clearly states "This evolution is only
available to eidolons of the quadruped base form." This is not ambiguous in any way.
Your Eidolon has a speed of 40 and qualifies for Constrict if it takes the Grab evolution, but never qualifies for Pounce. If you continue to wish it to be immune to tripping, consider a few more Limbs (Legs) evolutions.
HOWEVER: All this being said, nothing prevents you from taking the much cheaper *climb* evolution twice for every evolution of legs, and simply giving up the ability to charge further than 40' in order to move 80+ in a round to make your grapple and constrict attempts, turning your Eidolon into a monstrous grappling machine of death with Improved and Greater Grapple. Focusing on only a single attack could mean dire consequences for your foes, particularly when you use a move action to maintain the grapple (greater grapple) for constrict damage, and then attack them during the grapple with a (possibly ANOTHER!) toxic bite. While other Eidolons focus on the pouncing and multi-striking possibilities, the Serpentine can lock a single enemy down perpetually and prevent them from ever taking an action.
Stock up on Wall spells to give your Eidolon superior vertical mobility.
Fun fact: Sharks can be tripped.
Fun fact: Sharks can be tripped.
Not having legs kind of makes them immune.
Can you be tripped while swimming? o.O
If you have legs, then yes, it seems you can.
Fun fact: Sharks can be tripped.Not having legs kind of makes them immune.
Where does it say that they have no legs?
Re the Behir:
The creature's six pairs of powerful, clawed legs remain folded against its sides most of the time, only extending in combat to grapple foes or carry the behir forward in a terrifying, low-slung gallop, or else when climbing the sheer cliff faces common to behir lairs.
-So it sounds like when its fighting the legs are arms and it slithers around.
If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.
This rule leaves the possibility open for other creatures other than those listed, meaning that it is more of a guideline than a rule in regards to what creatures gain trip immunity. for this, we must look at the individual creatures. Serpentine form has no reference directly to a trip immunity, so we cannot infer it due to the statement quoted above. Serpentine form is not immune to trip, with or without legs.
As to pounce and constrict. No and Yes respectively. The base form is the only consideration in this case and although the serpent looks very much like a quadruped at this point, it is not because the creature is not a quadruped by nature. Perhaps you could say that it's mind doesn't naturally understand the tactics of four-legged creatures and so it is unable to use those strategies properly.
On the other hand, Constrict is still a viable option because the serpentine creature understands well how to crush the life out of a foe and would not permit some extraneous limbs from allowing it to do its work.
Just an opinion. Did I pass the Bar-exam to become a rules lawyer?
Ok, I am going to have a go:
Serpentine
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 20 ft., climb 20 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (bad), Ref (good), Will (good); Attack bite (1d6), tail slap (1d6); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions bite, climb, reach (bite), tail, tail slap.
Does not say immune to trip.
Trip: If your attack exceeds the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.
Serpentine base form has no legs, and so is immune to trip.
Legs: There is no such thing as a 'legs evolution'.
So, you have no legs, and are still immune to trip :)
If you took the Limbs-legs evolution:
Limbs (Ex): An eidolon grows an additional pair of limbs. These limbs can take one of two forms. They can be made into legs, complete with feet. Each pair of legs increases the eidolon's base speed by 10 feet. Alternatively, they can be made into arms, complete with hands. The eidolon does not gain any additional natural attacks for an additional pair of arms, but it can take other evolutions that add additional attacks (such as claws or a slam). Arms that have hands can be used to wield weapons, if the eidolon is proficient. This evolution can be selected more than once.
You now have legs. The rule from the trip entry no longer makes you immune, but since you chose the evolution twice (four legs) you now have +4 to your CMD vs. trip.
Constrict (Ex): An eidolon gains powerful muscles that allow it to crush those it grapples. Whenever the eidolon successfully grapples a foe using the grab evolution, it deals additional damage equal to the amount of damage dealt by the attack used by the grab evolution. This evolution is only available to eidolons of the serpentine base form.
Specified Serpentine base form, so you would be able to use this evolution.
Pounce (Ex): An eidolon gains quick reflexes, allowing it to make a full attack after a charge. This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form.
Specified Serpentine base form, so you would not be able to take this evolution.
The reasoning I used for all of these:
Direct reference to the actual rules!
LOL
I win, right? :P
Congratulations (condolences?) to all those who made it on the Rules Lawyer List:
- -Anvil-
- 45ur4
- Areteas
- Asheiridon
- BigNorseWolf
- Carborundum
- Cartigan
- David Thomassen
- Dolanar
- Dorje Sylas
- Interzone
- Jadeite
- James Maissen
- Jeff1964
- Kassegore
- KenderKin
- King of Vrock
- Krimson
- LazarX
- LoreKeeper
- Magnu123
- Mark Sweetman
- mdt
- Morgen
- Purplefixer
- Rathender
- Sizik
- Some call me Tim
- thepuregamer
- Turin the Mad
- voska66
- Wraithstrike
In other words, pretty much everyone in the thread. :P
Thank you to everyone who participated.
saw that coming...
Did you really? Darn! :(
I only refrained from debating because I know next to nothing about Eidolon mechanics. :)TriOmegaZero, for he did not directly participate or debate, but nevertheless asked a whole lot of questions.
Since when did lack of knowledge of the rules really stop any true rules lawyer from debating them. :-P
Alright, how about a friendly little test to determine how much a rules lawyer you are, how strictly you adhere to the rules. All you have to do is answer the following questions:
I am making an eidolon for my summoner character. I start off with the serpentine base form because, hey, constrict is pretty powerful.
Eidolons of the serpentine form, like all snake-like creatures, are immune to trip attempts and the prone condition in general.
But I want a FAST eidolon too, so I give it the legs evolution twice. It now has four legs and a speed of 40 feet.
Is it still immune to trips?
Can it still benefit from the constrict and/or pounce evolutions?
Explain your answers and the reasoning behind them.
In approximately ~24 hours I will announce who, of those who answered, are rules lawyers.
Is it still immune to trips?
No, since now you have legs, you lose the immunity but gain a stability bonus for having more than 2 legs.
Can it still benefit from the constrict and/or pounce evolutions?
Constrict no, because you now have legs and lack the necessary appendage to constrict, pounce I would rule yes, since you have 4 legs and thus can pounce on your enemies.
I'd like to add option (C)Honestly had free time and thought could be helpful with a possibly accurate answer.
No worry tho, i won't mistake that on your threads again. ;)
Congratulations (condolences?) to all those who made it on the Rules Lawyer List:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Thank you to everyone who participated.
If that was the criteria(in the spoiler) then I could have just told you to put me in the "yes" category a long time ago. :)
Ahahahaha....
Well played, sir.
Edit: And I am with Wraithstrike on this one :P
I would say this seems like a trick question, i wouls say that if you were a rules lawyer you would argue that your Eidolon would still be immune to trip and gain pounce from being a quadroped and the 40 base speed since nothing in the rules explicitly says you lose those things or dont gain those things from the alterations to your Eidolon but i would say based on RAI you would lose the immunity to trip with the new found legs. i dont know where i fall on this i might have to think about it.
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I would say this seems like a trick question, i wouls say that if you were a rules lawyer you would argue that your Eidolon would still be immune to trip and gain pounce from being a quadroped and the 40 base speed since nothing in the rules explicitly says you lose those things or dont gain those things from the alterations to your Eidolon but i would say based on RAI you would lose the immunity to trip with the new found legs. i dont know where i fall on this i might have to think about it.
That's not rules lawyering, that's munchkinism.
Ahahahaha....
Well played, sir.
And that's the response I was going for. :D
I too would side on the "Once you add legs, they lose tripping immunity" as the lack of legs are the only reason they can't be tripped.
I would go with still "immune to trip but"... if a trip attack succeeds you must use the 20 ft move speed until you stand up.
Still a snake after all.
Now nothing in the rules directly supports this position.
I think the people still posting didn't catch the point of the thread, lol..
And to those of you who still are arguing the rules:
Look at my main post... I spelled it out very clearly using quotes from the actual rulebook.
But of course, like I said, if you are still arguing you also missed the point. (Or rather are continuing to prove it)
:D
And that's the response I was going for. :DAhahahaha....
Well played, sir.
What am I, chopped liver? I favorited the conclusion post. :-p
And that's the response I was going for. :DAhahahaha....
Well played, sir.If I had known you wanted praise and a pat on your head for a job well done, I would have done so. I am sorry for missing my previous opportunity.
/pat-head and alil /behind-scratch-ear
Not looking for a pat on the head so much as to make a few people laugh. :)
Sorry, rules lawyer has a different meaning than the one you ascribed to it. "Everyone else is arguing the rules" isn't the same as "everyone else is taking a narrow, pedantic view of the rules in order to justify their position.
Congratulations (condolences?) to all those who made it on the Rules Lawyer List:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Thank you to everyone who participated.
Awwww but now we can't debate and argue about who made the list and who didn't and why. As well as arguing the rules stated forth in the original post and whether we should go by those as RAW or whether they are open to interpretation.
I mean the whole "Rules Lawyer" term has never been officially defined by Paizo.
Maybe we should scrap this thread and move to 'Advanced A test: How much of a rules lawyer are you?' possibbly followed by 'A test: How much of a rules lawyer are you? 3.0'(now without THACO!), etc.
:)
Sorry, rules lawyer has a different meaning than the one you ascribed to it.Who are you to define me?! :P
A licensed psychologist? :)
Well, one of my personalities is anyway...
I was late to the punch, but my vote is it *could* retain trip immunity. Things with tons of legs, ie giant centipede, also have trip immunity. Therefore, if it has fast legs, it has must have a (for the sake of logic) crap load of legs.
But I don't really know anything. Didn't really looks too much at the Summoner since I play rofl classes like blight druid and empty handed monk. All plot and nonsense baby.
