Alright, how about a friendly little test to determine how much a rules lawyer you are, how strictly you adhere to the rules. All you have to do is answer the following questions:
I am making an eidolon for my summoner character. I start off with the serpentine base form because, hey, constrict is pretty powerful.
Eidolons of the serpentine form, like all snake-like creatures, are immune to trip attempts and the prone condition in general.
But I want a FAST eidolon too, so I give it the legs evolution twice. It now has four legs and a speed of 40 feet.
Is it still immune to trips?
Can it still benefit from the constrict and/or pounce evolutions?
Explain your answers and the reasoning behind them.
In approximately ~24 hours I will announce who, of those who answered, are rules lawyers.
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Still immune. Doesn't stop the serpentine base form from being a suboptimal and dysfunctional form.
Give a biped extra legs and a bite and a quadruped extra arms and claws. They should look similar, but the biped has greater reach when enlarged and the quadruped can take the pounce evolution. It may not be realistic, but it gives the base forms some additional flavor.
The immunity to trip only comes from not having legs. Once you add legs it is trippable.
"Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped." Combat manuevers:tripping section
I would say that adding legs it loses the immunity.
Constrict is specifically restricted to base form, as is pounce, so your answer there would be Yes then No.
How i see it, RAW.
...the serpentine baseform [is] a suboptimal and dysfunctional form.
Why is that pray tell? (Not related to the test, just an earnest question.)
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I'm not so much a rules lawyer as a tyrannical DM. I'd look your character sheet over, rip it up and exclaim:
"Who said you could use the APG?!?"
Then I'd laugh.
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Why is that pray tell? (Not related to the test, just an earnest question.)
Their low strength reduces the effectiveness of constrict. They also have other stuff going against them, too, like a hardwired secondary attack.
At low levels, you'd be better of with Weapon Finesse but once you gain access to the large evolution that's no longer the case. You can't, however, retrain the feats of your eidolon, so you're either worse than you could be for quite a while or have useless feats after a certain level. This is certainly less of a problem if you create your character on a higher level, though. Still, a biped's attacks and CMB will be two points higher.
Alright, how about a friendly little test to determine how much a rules lawyer you are, how strictly you adhere to the rules. All you have to do is answer the following questions:
I am making an eidolon for my summoner character. I start off with the serpentine base form because, hey, constrict is pretty powerful.
Eidolons of the serpentine form, like all snake-like creatures, are immune to trip attempts and the prone condition in general.
But I want a FAST eidolon too, so I give it the legs evolution twice. It now has four legs and a speed of 40 feet.
Is it still immune to trips?
Can it still benefit from the constrict and/or pounce evolutions?
Explain your answers and the reasoning behind them.
In approximately ~24 hours I will announce who, of those who answered, are rules lawyers.
It is still immune. I would just flavor the legs as being short and stubby so you don't lose the serpentine affect.
Unless a rule exist to say why it can't benefit from constrict or pounce then it can.That is my RAI/RAW interpretation. I don't think these determine the how much of a rules lawyer someone is though. I could easily see some GM's using immersion as an excuse/reason to block it from working, but I say adapt the flavor to the mechanics if possible.
This one is actually pretty tame compared to some of the other things you come up with.<---Not an insult.
edit:I assumed you stated a rule. After looking at Rathendar's rule lookup I would not allow the immunity to trip to exist. Everything else is good though unless someone finds a rule to block it.
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 20 ft., climb 20 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (bad), Ref (good), Will (good); Attack bite (1d6), tail slap (1d6); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions bite, climb, reach (bite), tail, tail slap.
There's nothing here that says they can't be tripped. It could be argued that they don't have legs, since humanoid gets 2 and quadruped gets 4, and thus can't be tripped (which would go away if it takes the legs evolution). However, having legs is not a well-defined quality.
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There's nothing here that says they can't be tripped. It could be argued that they don't have legs, since humanoid gets 2 and quadruped gets 4, and thus can't be tripped (which would go away if it takes the legs evolution). However, having legs is not a well-defined quality.
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 20 ft., climb 20 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (bad), Ref (good), Will (good); Attack bite (1d6), tail slap (1d6); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions bite, climb, reach (bite), tail, tail slap.
In this case, the eidolon should not be immune to tripping attempts.
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"Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped." Combat manuevers:tripping section
I would say that adding legs it loses the immunity.
Constrict is specifically restricted to base form, as is pounce, so your answer there would be Yes then No.
How i see it, RAW.
+1
You guys are great for my self esteem! I think i am almost back up to batting .500 on trying to be accurate with helpful answers..
It could be argued that you add legs for visual effect (and some other claw related benefits) - but don't actually use them for movement. In such a case you'd not gain a movement speed bonus, but you'd retain the trip immunity. Since you're using the legs for speed, the creature is trip-able.
If you tried to argue switching between "movement modes" (legless, legged) on the fly, then you'd get a swift twack up the head.
Being serpentine as base form, you do get constrict, regardless of number of legs added.
Also, don't question Jadeite's judgment on inferiority of serpentine base form: he's winning at DnD!
I'd probably play a serpentine base-form myself, if I could bring myself to play a class that I consider broken.
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Also, don't question Jadeite's judgment on inferiority of serpentine base form: he's winning at DnD!
I'd probably play a serpentine base-form myself, if I could bring myself to play a class that I consider broken.
If anything, I'm winning at Pathfinder.
And for someone not interested in such things, you are pretty worried about balance.
I'm very interested in balance, and I make good character builds (in my opinion). But I'm not interested in min-max options like biped over serpentine.
To put it another way: I like the challenge of making something weak playable. It's not a challenge to make a highest-DPR, I find it dull and uninspiring.
And particularly the summoner is a problematic class in this regard: there are a huge amount of variables and things to fiddle with, with the consequence that it is depressingly easy to make something that is really too powerful for the game-level at which the party is playing. It's annoying to have a character that is in his own right a decent enough caster with 3/4 base attack - and then not add something "small" like bardic music or judgments, but instead add a full-fledged per-level custom-made optimizers wet dream.
What I *do* like about a summoner is the ability to create a cohort/companion of things that aren't usually available - like a dragon, angel, elemental, etc - and I applaud cases where I see something like that. But typically it is a weird amalgam of level-based choices (like perception +8 at level 1, which is gone at level 3 because now the evolutions are more favorably spent elsewhere). That means there's no true entity at the core with a stable interpretation and personality.
So instead we get a many-limbed monstrosity (with pounce obviously) straight out of some Cthullian/invertebrate nightmare or instead a "cohort"-like armor-clad bodyguard/smasher that even breaks the powerlevel of Leadership.
Lastly, the summoner specializes in slowing-down the game. Either there is an automatic double-turn with the eidolon, or the summons that last forever (and take a standard action to summon). Having summons at hand is normal for a lot of casters, but the summoner is the undisputed master of the lot, and every 1d4+x critters summoned slow the rounds down more than before.
...
Instead - when I GM - I'll consider allowing "Extra Evolution" feat for non-summoners to use on their familiar/animal-companion. Possibly a druid archetype that gets 1 evolution point every odd level but gives up all shapeshifting.
1) No, he loses the trip and prone immunity gaining instead resistance from tripping because of multiple legs, because of this:
If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.
2) You still can benefit from constrict, but not pounce, because both of them are referring to eidolon base form and because of this:
, you need to have the right base form, which is the one whoSome evolutions require that the eidolon have a specific base form or the summoner be of a specific level before they can be chosen.
determines its [the eidolon] starting size, speed, AC, attacks, and ability scores. [...] These base forms also note any free evolutions that base form possesses.
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If you want more speed and still be immune to trip or prone, make your eidolon a flying creature (which also improves your -fly- speed by 20 feet for every point spent and is cheaper than limbs [legs])
However, having legs is not a well-defined quality.I will be honest... this is a first. Having legs is not a well-defined quality? Really? Atleast in the case of the eidolon it is definitely very well defined. There is ability that gives you "legs". How many legs you gain from taking the evolution is also stated. Eidolons are modular. All their qualities are well defined.
Having legs makes it neither a biped nor a quadraped form. How well do you posit your ability to trip a salamander or a millipede is?
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Alright, how about a friendly little test to determine how much a cheese builder you are, how frequently you try to subvert the rules. All you have to do is answer the following questions:
You am making an eidolon for your summoner character. You start off with the serpentine base form because, hey, constrict is pretty powerful.
Eidolons of the serpentine form, like all snake-like creatures, are immune to trip attempts and the prone condition in general.
But you want a FAST eidolon too, so you give it the legs evolution twice. It now has four legs and a speed of 40 feet.
Is it still immune to trips?
Can it still benefit from the constrict and/or pounce evolutions?
Explain your answers and the reasoning behind them.
In approximately ~24 hours I will announce who, of those who answered, are cheese builders.
FTFY
Alright, how about a friendly little test to determine how much a rules lawyer you are, how strictly you adhere to the rules. All you have to do is answer the following questions:
I am making an eidolon for my summoner character. I start off with the serpentine base form because, hey, constrict is pretty powerful.
Eidolons of the serpentine form, like all snake-like creatures, are immune to trip attempts and the prone condition in general.
But I want a FAST eidolon too, so I give it the legs evolution twice. It now has four legs and a speed of 40 feet.
Is it still immune to trips?
Can it still benefit from the constrict and/or pounce evolutions?
Explain your answers and the reasoning behind them.
In approximately ~24 hours I will announce who, of those who answered, are rules lawyers.
In the spirit of the OP:
There is no legs evolution - there is a limbs evolution that can be selected to take one of two forms, of which legs is one.
There is nothing in the serpentine base form that stipulates the eidolon is immune to either trip or the prone condition. Therefor you gain neither characteristic. Being legless makes you immune to being tripped - but not to being prone. Until you gain legs, at which point you no longer fulfill the "without legs" requirement.
Selecting the limbs (legs) evolution twice is not possible at 1st level since each limbs (legs) evolution costs 2 points. A 1st level summoner starts with an evolution pool of 3 points.
Constrict is a 2 point evolution that requires the Grab evolution be selected first, another 2 point evolution for a total of 4 points. Thus, your summoner's eidolon could not have acquired this 'package' any earlier than 2nd level.
Pounce your eidolon cannot have since it does not have the quadruped base form. Ever. Becoming a quadrupedal snake does not change the eidolon's base form.
If your eidolon's evolution pool is a minimum of 8 points it can have 2 limbs (legs) evolutions, the grab evolution and the constrict evolution in addition to the free evolutions that accompany its base form. This is a 5th level summoner's eidolon (barring other factors increasing the evolution pool earlier than 'scheduled'). This was not stipulated as part of the test. :)
If you wanted to keep the trip immunity (and did not want to add claws/ hooves to them) I would try and argue that the 2 limb (legs) evolutions taken represented a stronger & faster moving body.
You cannot get the Pounce evolution, as that is restricted to Quadruped base form.
You can take the Constrict evolution (When you have enough evoultion points), as you base form is serpentine. But it is not much use without the Grab Evoulution.
I would also take an additional Climb evoultion, to keep your climb speed the same as the base.
Alright, how about a friendly little test to determine how much a rules lawyer you are, how strictly you adhere to the rules. All you have to do is answer the following questions:
I am making an eidolon for my summoner character. I start off with the serpentine base form because, hey, constrict is pretty powerful.
Eidolons of the serpentine form, like all snake-like creatures, are immune to trip attempts and the prone condition in general.
But I want a FAST eidolon too, so I give it the legs evolution twice. It now has four legs and a speed of 40 feet.
Is it still immune to trips?
Can it still benefit from the constrict and/or pounce evolutions?
Explain your answers and the reasoning behind them.
In approximately ~24 hours I will announce who, of those who answered, are rules lawyers.
No, it is not immune to trip because it now has legs (but it does get a bonus to resist being tripped because it has more than two legs)
Yes, it can still constrict ( it still has a long, thin body). It can pounce if it has claws on the legs capable of attacks.
Yes, it can still constrict ( it still has a long, thin body). It can pounce if it has claws on the legs capable of attacks.
Not a rules lawyer then. It can't gain Pounce as an Evolution because it doesn't meet the requirement of being a Base quadruped. Having claws or hoves or noodles for limbs means nothing to Pounce.
Now this going to get me filed unde cheesy.... If the Eidolon could qualify for Pounce another way (feat, template, etc) the it could possibly pounce.
One reason why I complained about the way speed increase in an eidelon works during the playtest (not that devs listened to that). In my own games, it's the same cost, but it doesn't add legs, just makes you faster. None of the other movement speed increases adds limbs (see swim, flight, etc) each time you boost the speed, so I see no reason it should be required that your horse shaped eidelon has to have 10 legs to be really fast.
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Alright, how about a friendly little test to determine how much a rules lawyer you are, how strictly you adhere to the rules. All you have to do is answer the following questions:
I am making an eidolon for my summoner character. I start off with the serpentine base form because, hey, constrict is pretty powerful.
Eidolons of the serpentine form, like all snake-like creatures, are immune to trip attempts and the prone condition in general.
But I want a FAST eidolon too, so I give it the legs evolution twice. It now has four legs and a speed of 40 feet.
Is it still immune to trips?
Can it still benefit from the constrict and/or pounce evolutions?
Explain your answers and the reasoning behind them.
In approximately ~24 hours I will announce who, of those who answered, are rules lawyers.
I can't believe i'm joining in :) Oh well, here you go Ravingdork.
BY RAW: (it doesn't have to make logical sense, its a fantasy game)
1) Is it still immune to trips? Yes, it still has the serpentine base form, no matter how many weird appendages you add to it.
2) Yes it can benefit from constrict or pounce, because it now meets the prerequisites for both abilities.
As for the rest of you so called rules lawyers arguing whether or not adding legs makes the eidolon trippabe, For SHAME on all of you, No one thought of the Behir? Classic DnD monster. Big serpentine creature with lots of little legs? Take a peek at it in the SRD, its immune to trip. :-)
As for the rest of you so called rules lawyers arguing whether or not adding legs makes the eidolon trippabe, For SHAME on all of you, No one thought of the Behir? Classic DnD monster. Big serpentine creature with lots of little legs? Take a peek at it in the SRD, its immune to trip.
A behir has so many legs - all of which have very large, sharp claws but only a tiny fraction of them can be brought to bear in combat - that the bonus to CMD becomes moot. Otherwise, as counterpoint, the behir's land speed should be in the 200' range. Using this argument means that such an eidolon's base speed should cap at that of the behir's regardless of how many extra legs it has.
It is true that the behir has legs, but cannot be tripped because it also has a serpentine form.
This is a lot more fun than I imagined it would be. I have a few names on my list already, and I am struggling not to reveal them too early. I'll try to at least hold off until midnight tonight (Eastern time) so others can get a chance to (win?) the status of Rules Lawyer.
Alright, how about a friendly little test to determine how much a rules lawyer you are, how strictly you adhere to the rules. All you have to do is answer the following questions:
I am making an eidolon for my summoner character. I start off with the serpentine base form because, hey, constrict is pretty powerful.
Eidolons of the serpentine form, like all snake-like creatures, are immune to trip attempts and the prone condition in general.
But I want a FAST eidolon too, so I give it the legs evolution twice. It now has four legs and a speed of 40 feet.
Is it still immune to trips?
Can it still benefit from the constrict and/or pounce evolutions?
Explain your answers and the reasoning behind them.
In approximately ~24 hours I will announce who, of those who answered, are rules lawyers.
Dunno if you posted the 'answer' yet but my ruling- Yes it can be tripped, BUT it wouldn't make the creature prone. Instead the creature would still be able to use it's base form to move. It would lose the 40' of movement and get whatever speed the serpentine body has. Basically this creature has 2 modes of movement and it can choose to use.
Constrict would still work as this ability has nothing to do with whether there are legs or not, but rather the serpentine main body. And it's serpentine structure is still there, just with legs now.Pounce-honestly I'd have to look this one up.
I'd guess that you can trip a snake with legs but doing so really doesn't have much of effect other than reducing it's speed to the slithering speed as snake in a prone position is in it's natural position. Basically it can move and attack normally with out legs and the fact that it has legs doesn't change that. After a trip as DM I'd rule a move action is required to get back up on your legs but being prone has no other effect.
Not easy to answer since I'm currently moving (And my precious books are still in boxes) but I'd say it loses the immunity as well; I'd treat the said creature the same way I'd treat a centipede; +2 to resist trip for each extra pair of legs. (Was that 3.5 rulings or is it still the same in PF?)
It is true that the behir has legs, but cannot be tripped because it also has a serpentine form.
Oh, I see... well that comparison closes the subject, doesn't it?
It is true that the behir has legs, but cannot be tripped because it also has a serpentine form.Oh, I see... well that comparison closes the subject, doesn't it?
Not necessarily. As others have said, the eidolon is rife with exceptions. What's more, my statement above is entirely conjecture. The behir having trip immunity might not have anything to do with its form.
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Uh... based on a common-sense approach, I'd say - a serpentine form with 2-4 legs can be tripped (because it is no longer using serpentine movement to get that extra speed, same as a quadruped with wings following different trip rules when it's airborne), can pounce (as it is now both a quadruped and a serpent), and can constrict (it maintains the body that allows it this attack). The behir has 12 legs, which I think accounts for its trip immunity more than it being serpent-like - you'd need to knock out at least 6 of them in one go to trip it, making it effectively impossible in the scope of the normal trip rules. Eidolons with 6+ legs may develop a trip CMD bonus or immunity at GM's discretion, I'd venture.
Seems like kind of a long way to go just for constrict, though. Can eidolons swallow whole?
It is true that the behir has legs, but cannot be tripped because it also has a serpentine form.
I thought you were complaining about your reputation. Have you decided to give in and revel in it instead :)
For the record, imho when you buy legs you become tripable. A snake isn't immune to trip as some platonic quality of being a snake, its immune because a snake doesn't have any legs. As soon as you completely negate the reason WHY a snake is immune you remove the immunity.
Alright, how about a friendly little test to determine how much a rules lawyer you are, how strictly you adhere to the rules. All you have to do is answer the following questions:
Forgive me if someone else has covered this, but I didn't want to 'cheat' and read other peoples' answers.
I am making an eidolon for my summoner character. I start off with the serpentine base form because, hey, constrict is pretty powerful.
Eidolons of the serpentine form, like all snake-like creatures, are immune to trip attempts and the prone condition in general.
But I want a FAST eidolon too, so I give it the legs evolution twice. It now has four legs and a speed of 40 feet.
Is it still immune to trips?
No. The Core Rulebook lists examples of creatures that cannot be tripped. A serpentine form is not among them.
"Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped. (PFRPG p. 201)"
Your eidolon now has legs and is therefore no longer in an excluded category.
Can it still benefit from the constrict and/or pounce evolutions?
Yes, you can still benefit from the constrict special ability. The constrict ability can only be taken by an eidolon whose base form is serpentine. Your eidolon has the serpentine base form.
No, you cannot not take the Pounce evolution because your eidolon is not of the quadruped base form. Just granting it four legs does not make it change its base form.
It is true that the behir has legs, but cannot be tripped because it also has a serpentine form.
What about the rast? It has many lags and can't be tripped, yet is not describes as serpentine.
It is true that the behir has legs, but cannot be tripped because it also has a serpentine form.
False statement - the behir cannot be tripped because it states in the bestiary entry that it cannot be tripped.
Nowhere in the bestiary does it state that the ability is derived from a 'serpentine form'
Also for the others in the thread - the serpentine eidolon (as per RAW) does not have trip immunity. The trip immunity is only an applied condition based on it's leglessness.