I hate labels like "mythic", "epic", and "legendary." Do you want more content for levels 15-20? How about levels 21-30? If you want 20+ what would be a reasonable level cap?
James says that popular interest is what best guarantees the genesis of a product. Weigh in with your thoughts folks.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Nope. I refuse to buy mods that go above level 10, let alone 20.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I hate labels like "mythic", "epic", and "legendary." Do you want more content for levels 15-20? How about levels 21-30? If you want 20+ what would be a reasonable level cap?
I wouldn't mind 20+ content at all, but I do think there needs to be a cap at some point. 3e showed pretty well that going on infinitely just does not work very well and it's quite easy to hit diminishing marginal returns for each new level and bonus gained. It's most obvious in straightforward numbers (one level's hit points or BAB make a huge difference when it's your second level ever, but almost none when it's your 40th) but it applies to most all toys in the game.
I'm guessing 10-15 levels beyond 20 is the most most games would ever need, but my feeling is that these levels should give something more and extra than ordinary levels, perhaps scaling up increasingly as they grow higher. Extreme high levels are the realm of plot devices, artifacts, and the like. PCs should be able to bend and break some rules there, though preferably in some kind of sensible and well-developed way that feels like a fairly organic growth of the system instead of the radical kludges that 3e had for things as simple as an item that gave +8 to one's dexterity.
I'd definitely like to see some kind of epic spellcasting (Not necessarily the form used in 3e, but more than just metamagic-enhanced ordinary spells. If not for things like Wish this would be a lot easier to handle with regular spells.) which is PC-usable, captures some of the feel of doing mighty works of magic, and is also a kind of plot device assembly kit for DMs.
Of course I'd also like a divinity capstone system that sits on top of and integrates with this so that PCs could be nascent godlings in more than just the figurative sense. In 3e the two systems were co-developed fairly badly and it showed. I guess in my perfect world you'd be able to slap minor divinity (say they get splashed with some god juice or whatever and carry a tinge of divinity, making them more than mortal but far from omnipotent, etc) on first level PCs and have a fairly good idea of how it works and what you can do to still challenge them without throwing out the world or whatever.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, maybe this is just me. But what's the appeal of high level play beyond 20th? At 17th or so things begin getting to the point you really have to adjudicate things on the fly because the PCs have such a high aggregate power compared to what you can throw at them.
Yes, it's cool to say your character is the stompiest of the stompy, but at level 20 there's very few obstacles (barring you playing Forgotten Realms) to doing as you please.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In all fairness, I don't personally think that there needs be more metamagic feats brought in. Using the APG and UM etc, there is already a huge amount of variety for spells. It feels a broader and more balanced than it did in 3e.
I have just finished a 6 month almost hyper accelerated game that went up to 10th level, and found that in all honesty the game dragged a little as more attacks were thrown in and such like. Part of that might be that the players were badly organised, but I also think that low level play is almost charming in its simplicity. I certainly know that my 3rd level ranger to some degree feels more powerful than some of the 10th level characters I saw because success is much more appreciated due to less skill ranks and such like. Success or failure on tasks gives a much more human element to the game.
My above comment will probably be disagreed with, but I have a pretty visual way of seeing the world, and whilst I optimize characters to be the best at what they do, I like to maintain a mortal element to it as well. I want the game to be a challenge at all levels, be it in or out of combat. When a character can succeed on a task on a roll of 2 or above then I begin to lose interest.
I always liked epic play.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, maybe this is just me. But what's the appeal of high level play beyond 20th? At 17th or so things begin getting to the point you really have to adjudicate things on the fly because the PCs have such a high aggregate power compared to what you can throw at them.
Yes, it's cool to say your character is the stompiest of the stompy, but at level 20 there's very few obstacles (barring you playing Forgotten Realms) to doing as you please.
There is a huge appeal. I think the problem is many DMs do not see it. The appeal in my groups is very simple. Think of the anime Naruto/One Piece, or just about any heavily violent Shonen anime, or even better, think of the game God of War.
My players want a Fighter that can bull rush three great wyrms through an adamantine wall.
They like a wizard that can topple a mountain with one spell.
They enjoy taking on monsters 100 times their size and having, say, a Monk flying kick such a creature through the throat and out the other side.
They enjoy a Cleric calling divine light from the heavens to smite an army of undead.
They want a Barbarian that can fend off 1,000 orcs by themself and hit a solid rock wall down in one club smash.
A Rogue that can penetrate a demon stronghold and assassinate a pit fiend one by one.
All this legendary stuff but in a fantasy setting. It can be done.
If you've successfully run or played a superhero game you might already have a taste for what epic level D&D/Pathfinder should look and feel like.
I was recently recommended a graphic novel called The Authority which I read over the past few days and was struck by how plotlines of that type were really the only viable challenges to epic level heroes. In the book, the heroes are answerable to no one and capable of traversing the multiverse dispensing justice as they see fit. The law and military agencies of Earth can't touch them, but there are still threats to challenge the team and drama in their interactions.
I imagine other team comics and shows like Justice League also provide a pretty good model of what PCs are capable of around level 20, what sort of challenges they should be facing. Their adventures are galactic in scope and should decide the fates of worlds.
I for one am looking forward to getting my home campaign to that point and hope to see a book to support it.
Creative Director
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I hate labels like "mythic", "epic", and "legendary." Do you want more content for levels 15-20? How about levels 21-30? If you want 20+ what would be a reasonable level cap?
James says that popular interest is what best guarantees the genesis of a product. Weigh in with your thoughts folks.
Hate it or not... it needs a label.
I'd rather not call it "Epic level" since that label already means something very specific as far as 3.5 compatible games are concerned, and I'd rather go a different route.
"Mythic" sounds good to me because it evokes the idea of demigods duking it out (AKA Hercules doing his thing, or any similar legendary mythical superhero type character).
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I hate labels like "mythic", "epic", and "legendary." Do you want more content for levels 15-20? How about levels 21-30? If you want 20+ what would be a reasonable level cap?
James says that popular interest is what best guarantees the genesis of a product. Weigh in with your thoughts folks.
I have very, very little interest in high level content. Few of my campaigns continue past 12th level, and high CR monsters almost never see play in my campaigns, and should one of my groups reach those levels, I'm more likely to use some of the classic high CR creatures that I more or less never get to use that players dream about defeating than something new and unheard of.
I'd rather see paizo focus on content for levels 1-12. Mid range CR creatures (CR 8-14) are going to get a lot more use and thus be far more useful than yet another CR 21 demon or devil.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
No level 20+ content please, unless there will be a very good integration of it in Golarion.
Which I don't think is quite possible, but maybe Paizo will surprise me.
Pretty much this.
|
No level 20+ content please, unless there will be a very good integration of it in Golarion.
Which I don't think is quite possible, but maybe Paizo will surprise me.
What about those of us that don't play in Golarion? We shouldn't have a beyond level 20 book because of that? Why can't there be a generic 21+ book for everyone to decide if they want it or not to affect their world?
I've been running Pathfinder for about a while now (shortly after it came out) and never have I set foot in Golarion, and I don't plan to. It just seems unfair to punish those that don't play in Golarion (and those that have no desire to) by denying them a post level 20 play book.
The problem is, if Paizo publishes a rules product, people will expect for that product to be supported. Nobody liked the WotC "publish a book and forget it ever existed" policy of the 3.5 era. So, folks will want "epic" modules and APs.
Heck, one of the biggest problems folks had with 3.5 Epic Rules was that it was basically left out there in cold with maybe one or two Dungeon adventures that used the ruleset.
Problem is, Paizo won't be publishing settingless adventures (would make no sense for them to), so it must be Golarion. And there we arrive at the problem of where it all does fit.
So it's not that easy as you think. Here's pretty much the same as said by James Jacobs.
|
I'd love to see more content for higher level play 12+, as well as post 20th level play. I've been an advocate for post 20th level play since PRPG was still in playtest mode. I'll continue to show my support anyway I can. Right now, it seems like drumming up support from others (trying to get people to become vocal, to show their support, is hard!), and buying modules for levels 12 and up are the only two options.
Heck yes, I'd absolutely love to see a Pathfinder RPG Mythic Handbook, or something similar. Our DM loves running campaigns from around level 5 up to the mid twenties on a regular basis, so right now we're stuck with the fairly broken 3.0 Epic rules. I won't hold my breath, but I'm hoping for a proper Mythic handbook before he runs the sequel to a game that ended at about level 19.
That said, and as much as I used to be against the idea, there really does need to be a level cap at some point, or things just tend to get silly. Level 40 is about the highest we've ever reasonably managed to play in 3.X, and is probably the most logical end point. The one major point that I hope Paizo addresses if/when they do Mythic is Epic Spellcasting. It was awful in 3.0, I'm certain they can come up with something better.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I hate labels like "mythic", "epic", and "legendary." Do you want more content for levels 15-20? How about levels 21-30? If you want 20+ what would be a reasonable level cap?
James says that popular interest is what best guarantees the genesis of a product. Weigh in with your thoughts folks.
No, I'm not interested in such material. At all.
I don't expect that's what you wanted to hear -- but that doesn't change my answer.
I appreciate that my interests are not shared by most of the posters on this thread. That doesn't make one of us right and one of us wrong. It makes us both right.
The problem is, there just is not as much interest in high level play as Paizo would prefer in order to justify such material. I expect at some point it will happen -- but I don't think it's a priority quite yet.
We'll see.
I'd love to see level 21+ content.
I'd love to see level 15+ content (I've seen bestiaries accomplish this, bestiary 2 has several high CR monsters).
I'd love to see supported and fixed high level imbalances of the products, too low (Cockatrice Strike) or too high (ever GMed a diviner with Persistent Perfected Flesh to Stone?).
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I dislike epic (20+) content. I will never use it. So I will not buy this product.
I feal the AP's level advancement caping at 14-18 is just fine. In order to get to 20. You need 8-10 books so 2 AP instalments. Due to the Exp. incresses as you get to the higher levels. Past level 15 it is almost one book to make one level. Thats why you see most AP's. Book 1 levels 1-5 book 2 levels 6-8 book 3 levels 9-10 book 4 levels 11-13 book 5 14-15 book 6 16-17. Past that it will be 1-2 levels per book. So if the first 6 get you to 16 you need 2-4 more to get to 20.
I love high-level content, particularly in terms of monsters, outsider lords, and similar entities. However, I really dislike the 3.0 Epic ruleset, for a variety of reasons.
If Paizo creates a good "Mythic" ruleset, I will buy it right away. Also, I will buy any Bestiary product that includes a lot of high-CR monsters/NPCs.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yes. Level 20+ please. Call it whatever you want. And give it to us in an AP. In fact, just start the AP at level 10.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm very keen on some guidelines/expansions for PC levels 13-20. This is an area I am pretty bad at running and there seems to be a bunch of stuff from founding a mercantile empire to bringing a new religion to some region to creating a demi-plane and doing wizardy things...all of which could be done by PCs in their teens. I have no interest in rules for 20+ but I suspect that's likely to change if Paizo turn their minds to it.
I'm definitely a supporter of 'testing the waters' with a high-level sourcebook which still fits within the current level cap (maybe with some expansion on the 'post-20' rules presented in Pathfinder rules already. Such a thing would probably provide useful information on actual demand, plus would have the potential to lure some of the 'post-20 naysayers' at least to the point of being willing to give it a go.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd like to see support for high level games (13+). Most campaigns I've been in have made it to those levels; in 2E, we even made it to 21 a few times. Is there less call for it than low and mid level? Yes. But there's still a need for it. If we never support or get support for those levels, they'll seldom be played. Then high level becomes 9-12 or something, the range shrinks, and we lose out on a whole lot of fun.
I also would love to see post-20 rules. I like the 'Mythic' description, for the reasons James uses. And some stories just aren't easily told until you get that far. If a character needs to hit 20th to become immortal (as some wizards and monks might do), then there's got to be some reason for it or chance to enjoy it. My cleric still needs to find her own path to immortality, and then what happens when gods die. Where do they go? Do they have souls? Can a mortal creature go there? And so on. We already know that pit fiends and balors and solars are all CR 20+ and their bosses are tougher. Who wouldn't want to fight their way up to the balor's boss? And so on. There are stories that I feel need to be told that truly do require those kinds of rules. So now I wait patiently for the Paizo crew to get around to them :)
I would definitely be interested in content covering levels above 20.
I also think it is a predestined thing, it is going to happen. Someone, somewhere is going to publish it, and I would rather it be the Pathfinder gods than someone else.
I will say that the scaling of the old epic level system was off. Each "Epic" level, per say, should give you something simple, like an epic feat or special ability or something, and each feat shouldn't give much more than a +1 to something, or some kind of physics or minor rule breaking thing.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have no interest in 20+ content. I believe that at some point, a story has to end.
I have some interest in 15 to 20 content. Whether that is modules or some sort of handbook to help handle some of the issues that crop up when PC's have that much power or that many abilities.
Actually, I'd really like a handbook on how to handle PC's with those abilities.
AJ
I would like both more high level adventures and post 20th level info, especially if the rules are good.
No level 20+ content please, unless there will be a very good integration of it in Golarion./QUOTE]
While I personally love Golarion, and have only played Pathfinder set there, there are people (some? a lot? I don't know) who play Pathfinder rules with homebrews or adapt other settings.
|
|
I guess my personal issue comes with the fact that while yes, most content is aimed at the sub-15/10 levelset, there's just not enough adventure material available between 15-20 to really justify expanding the ruleset up to 40 or so. While yes, you can be big damn heroes, I don't want Paizo to fall into the trap of diluting the areas they can aim products. If high level play sub 20 had enough content, then maybe they could expand it it a big. But right now I'm still waiting on a high level module beyond Witchwar Legacy.
|
|
I'd love a post 20 book. We always wanted to play an epic campaign and did several times, even with 3e broken rules, and had a lot of fun. But i think that levels beyond 20 should be fundamentaly different. More powerful by an order of magnitude at least. Not just levelling past 20. It should be....well mythical and unforgettable.
|
|
Never having played in a high-level game, I've always been interested. However, I don't think one of the Adventure Paths should be designed with a mythic-level ending. I would rather a string of vaguely connected mythic-level adventures (perhaps only putting out one or two per year, or in a partnership with Open Design).
My cleric still needs to find her own path to immortality, and then what happens when gods die. Where do they go? Do they have souls? Can a mortal creature go there? And so on.
<Crosses fingers for adventures about Aroden.>
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
There's a hole in my soul the exact shape and size of a Pathfinder hardback for high-level games.
It. hurts. so. much.
Good folks at Paizo, won't you help heal this grievous wound?
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I agree. Number one problem with APs, they end just when the characters are getting interesting. Need some that go to at least 20, more would be better.
Why not just make your characters more interesting from level 1?
In ant case unless the rules are streamlined and easier/faster to run then I have no interest in High Level content. I've seen PCs do amazing things at levels 1-10, really earning every victory while still maintaining a rapid pace in order to advance plot and change up encounter types (puzzle, combat, RP, investigation, exploration).
The closer PCs get to 12+ levels the less interesting the game becomes. Eventually swinging between a slog and a joke. The practicality of high level game when you have only 4 hours a week to play makes high level play an unappealing idea.
Many of Hercules labors could be emulated by 7th level characters. Mucking out stables, killing hydras. About the only one you couldn't do is hold up the sky, but then even a high level character doesn't have a massive enough strength to do that.
If I want superheroes I'll play mutants and masterminds, epic deeds in shorter turns.
I want the rules to extend to the point where a character can, in fact, fight a demigod. I also want the rules to remember that a solar's "power approaches that of demigods" rather than retconning that.
To translate that last: Remember a solar is CR 23. If you're 24th level, then, you would be near-demigod power yourself. 25th would seem to make a logical max level for non-deities.
|
|
I hate labels like "mythic", "epic", and "legendary." Do you want more content for levels 15-20? How about levels 21-30? If you want 20+ what would be a reasonable level cap?
James says that popular interest is what best guarantees the genesis of a product. Weigh in with your thoughts folks.
Hate it or not... it needs a label.
I'd rather not call it "Epic level" since that label already means something very specific as far as 3.5 compatible games are concerned, and I'd rather go a different route.
"Mythic" sounds good to me because it evokes the idea of demigods duking it out (AKA Hercules doing his thing, or any similar legendary mythical superhero type character).
Levels 1-5: Small town influential (small town sheriff, starting adventurers)
Levels 5-10: City influential (Guard lieutenant (level 5ish) head of the city's thieves' guild (level 10ish)
Level 10-15: Nationally influential (Lord Mayor of a City, Prince, Head of a famous college)
Level 15-20: Regional/World influential (Alexander the Great, World famous wizard)
Level 20-25: Planar generals, Nascent Demon Lords
Level 25-30: Planar leaders, Demon Lords, Archdevils, Empyreal Lords
Level 30-35: Demigods, Heracles
Level 35-40: Gods
And 40 should be the cap. That's my view anyway.
Even thought no stats have been published (AFAIK) for characters like Geb, Nex, The Whispering Tyrant, Aroden (when he was mortal), or Baba Yaga, the descriptions of these persons certainly seem to indicate they were (or are) much more powerful than PC's could become with the current rules.
Since I personally feel that anything a NPC can do should be attainable by a PC, a super high level play book, even a very basic one, should be warranted.
I would very much yes like product support for something in the range of level 15-40. Mostly what I want to see is rules for PCs to become full on deific entities not unlike the old immortals set. RPG settings (golarion included) are rife with examples of mortals transcending mortality into something greater but by and large that's one of those things that only ever happens to NPCs. If a DM wants that to actualy be a possibility for PCs then they have to start from scratch. I'd like to see that change and super high level rules would be the begining.
Torger
I'm always interested in higher level support, both for the Core high levels and beyond 20th.
Our game has been going for three years and my players at at 14th level. I'd like to think that by the time they hit 20th level, I'll have an officially supported ruleset to take them beyond.
|
|
Yeah, there needs to be content for beyond 20 play. As for what a cap should be, I think nothing higher than 40 would be fine. I mean, I understand people want to keep going even beyond that, but at least a hard cap at 40 gives players another 20 levels to play with.There's only so many times our table can start a campaign, get their characters up to 20 and have to stop and restart all over again. We'd all like to go beyond 20 and keep growing with these characters.
Seconded on all points Espcially the second one. One can start a campaign so many times before players feel like its bedides the point and ask to switch to a rpg that allows higher level play.
A bunch of good stuff about high level campaigns
Agreed that 40 should be the highest level. It gives another 20 levles of gameplay if both the DM and players want to continue plus an even number to end the game. I would love to see what the devs at ocould do with high level content.
|
|
I want the rules to extend to the point where a character can, in fact, fight a demigod. I also want the rules to remember that a solar's "power approaches that of demigods" rather than retconning that.
To translate that last: Remember a solar is CR 23. If you're 24th level, then, you would be near-demigod power yourself. 25th would seem to make a logical max level for non-deities.
Um, too late? <Mentions demon lord-level entities.>
Um, too late? <Mentions demon lord-level entities.>I want the rules to extend to the point where a character can, in fact, fight a demigod. I also want the rules to remember that a solar's "power approaches that of demigods" rather than retconning that.
To translate that last: Remember a solar is CR 23. If you're 24th level, then, you would be near-demigod power yourself. 25th would seem to make a logical max level for non-deities.
Demonlords are considered demigods. And they begin at CR 26.
|
|
Demonlords are considered demigods. And they begin at CR 26.Um, too late? <Mentions demon lord-level entities.>I want the rules to extend to the point where a character can, in fact, fight a demigod. I also want the rules to remember that a solar's "power approaches that of demigods" rather than retconning that.
To translate that last: Remember a solar is CR 23. If you're 24th level, then, you would be near-demigod power yourself. 25th would seem to make a logical max level for non-deities.
Huh. The Pathfinder Wiki is not being especially helpful. But this means solar description works, so good!