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Thanks for the suggestions. I'll go look at the Pathfinder Scenario and read up some more on Roman government.

From the beginning, this Fading Glory empire has caught my interest, though I wasn't sure what I wanted to do with it until just recently. I'd like to run a campaign focused on returning Taldor to a country worth thinking highly of. To change "Fading" to "Rising".

If it matters, I am planning on using the Princess as the person who can actually do it, and thus the NPC the PCs will work for. Eventually.

But having read the original Campaign Setting, Taldor, the Inner Sea Primer, and the Inner Sea World Guide, I am still not sure how the government of Taldor works. (Yes, I know that most Taldans don't know how the government works). There are hundreds or thousands of Noble Houses, a Senate, and a bureaucracy all trying to get things done.

Writings suggest the bureaucracy somehow gets things done day to day. So are the people in the bureaucracy from Noble Houses or are they just people elevated? Who gets into the Senate?

And how does anyone in the Senate or the Bureaucracy have the power/ability/legal authority to go against any Noble House that wants something done?

Thanks in advance,


I'm not sure what you have included in "casters", but wizards, given the time and money and access and passing the checks, can surely copy any spell they come across into their spell books. There is no maximum number of spells a wizard can have in her books.

Auntie Lisa:

"My first regular gaming group was a couple of friends. We played Keep on the Borderlands, because that was the adventure that came with the Beginner’s box set that my mother had bought me for Christmas."

I'm fairly sure my first encounter with D&D was not at its birth. I entered junior high school in 1978. I had started playing trombone in 6th grade, and was in the band when I changed schools to Jr. high, and there was another kid who had these books.

What are those I asked one day. It was B1 - In Search of the Unknown. I spent many home room periods sending pre-made characters to their deaths in this dungeon, but the one thing I can remember that hooked me was finding a room with a fountain... and drinking the water... and getting a wish... and having absolutely no idea what to wish for since I had just started to play, so the DM suggested I wish for an Iron Golem to help me out. And I tore through several encounters, and then the Iron Golem went insane and killed, well, everyone, my character included.

Yeah, somehow the idea of that spectacular of a failure spurred me on to play.

I quoted Auntie Lisa above because my grandmother bought me the B2 box (Keep on the Borderlands) and the X1 (Isle of the Savage Tide Adventure Path) for that Christmas. My oldest friend and I played those modules every way possible. And my grandmother later learned of the "controversy" surrounding D&D and lamented to the end of her days the game that gave me the best outlet for my imagination and my interests, despite me never worshiping Satan or murdering people, as far as you know.

I love this game, and I love what it has become. Thanks, Paizo.


Thanks for the answers.

And I thought of another way to ask the question, one that is more pertinent to my character. Which gets used for going undercover? I think most of the rules for that kind of thing call for Bluff, which to me seems to leave Perform for just performing, but that bangs up against the idea that pretending to be someone else sounds like Acting.

I don't have a problem with just using Bluff for it. This was just something I found myself wondering about.

Thanks again.


This has been something I've been wondering about since back in 3.5 days. I'm not sure where the line is between them. Is the Acting not what we think of nowadays so it is far more stage-specific?

Which should be used for a character who wants to appear drunk so as to hustle at cards or dice in a tavern? Or to fake an injury to get out of a dance at a gala? Is it Bluff or Acting to have a character's face show sympathy when the character feels none?

Or is it as simple as when using Perform it is obviously a performance and there is no real Bluff involved? And by that I mean that Acting is used for the purposes of giving a performance and Bluff is used for all other lying in the rest of the character's life.

I just made a Charlatan rogue (basically - he has some wizard for campaign reasons) headed for Master Spy and this kind of thing occupies my thoughts about him from time to time.


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We're in the second part of the path, building the city of Newhold and somthing that we really liked came up, but I want to ask:

What does it say about my group that they are coming up with names for the "Founding Group's Brews" for when they build a brewery?

Tiger Stripe Ale (Druid's Animal Companion)
Berne's Hard Cider (Pear) (Half-Orc Ranger)
Lily Lager (the Druid)
Müller Stout (with a creme brulee flavor) (Oracle of the Wind and Party face)

And I forget what the ruler, a paladin of Erastil who started as a farm boy wanted to call his booze.

Also, they decided it was "Fangberry Brewery" and would they are trying to coax Bokken into becoming a brewmaster.

This could be interesting when it comes down to it.

Silent Saturn wrote:

I thought this was going to be a thread about how to use the Disguise skill to maintain separate aliases in-game. :(

We need a "Guide to Skills"...

Yeah, my first thought was Spymaster. I admit I haven't looked at the PF version deeply, but the 3.5 version seemed to be able to do it (or, technically, the 3.0 Zhentarim Spymaster, yes?)

GAK! "sink" up? What was I thinking? Synch up is what I meant.

OK, so, this a bit of a bump, so I don't lose the thread.

Unfortunately, as my kids get closer to the end of the school year, they seem to be less inclined to play for now -- other things to worry about.

They still seem interested when I ask, but we don't seem to be able to find a common time to play. I'm sure we'll sink up soon.


At the risk of being seen bumping my own thread, I have to note that the more I look at the Carolingians, the more I wonder if any player would be able to suspend disbelief at hearing the details of what went on as the sons of Pippin II took over.

I am reading the actual history and am wondering how they were able to mount so many campaigns year after year against the opposition.

(Edited to Add): Also, and to make this more than a bump, how can I give out at least some of the information I am coming up with without having my players read through two hundred pages of stuff that is really fun but not applicable to the characters?

(Coming soon -- my thoughts on how to work in a fantasy pantheon to Carolingian Francia/Alemannia/Bavaria/Lombard, etc. New Post preferred? Let me know.)


Thanks for the replies.

I have been interested in these things for a long time, but had been satisfied with overviews on the History channel and other stories about the time period and even parts of campaign settings. But I wanted a more intricate setting than I usually come up with, that's why I figured I'd start with Eleanor, since I already had it. (BTW, I haven't actually finished it yet -- I became too interested in finding out how the political situation came to be in 1122 and basically am doing a flashback to 675 to find out.)

I'm finding that truth (or at least what we have of history) is way better than fiction.


I was rereading the Game Mastery Guide for the heck of it (and because I like it a lot). I got to the section on various government types and the feudal section just stuck with me. As a 30+ year player, the feudal system usually stays with me, I admit, and I had read (and seen on TV) various overviews of the system. But reading it this time left me with more than, "Yeah, I get lieges and vassals".

I remembered I had Alison Weir's "Eleanor of Aquitaine" in my "To Be Read" pile. So I started reading that. Twelfth century, kings, dukes (and duchesses, of course), successions, who is liege where and vassal where -- I gotta get me some of that!

But how in the world did the kings of Francia ever allow their vassals to get more power than themselves? How can that happen when the oaths are "You get land, I get military service"? Let's look into that.

The Capets (Hugh, to be exact) were elected to the kingship when the Carolingian line died out. That's explained in "Eleanor". But since the book is focused on the quite intriguing (in every definition of the word) Eleanor, Weir doesn't explain how the royal situation came to be.

Thanks to Amazon, I now have a few books on what happened with the Carolingians, so I can figure out how the Dukes were able to basically ignore the king.

And all this just to put together a coherent late medieval, war, tournament, courtly love, adventure, and political intrigue campaign that rather suddenly popped into my head.

(And I must admit that reading about the Carolingian takeover just makes me want to go further back and read about the Merovingians, too.)

So... too much research or just right? How much have you done to help create a good setting for your players? How much to create a good character for your DM?


Insnare wrote:
So did you say no female monsters or just eliminated the children? There should be equal opportunity slaughter of adult monsters...

I decided on no non-combatants. I haven't actually described the gender of any of the kobolds or goblins. There will be female orcs, maybe hobgoblins, but they may be just plain sexist. Most likely female gnolls and bugbears. Definitely female priests.

I didn't want my kids to have to deal with those questions at 8 and 10 years old -- more interested in the adventuring aspect like I was. Also, I am thinking the clerics in the Temple at the end are trying to build a war band to attack the merchants and communities of the "good" races, so since they are going to war, they kept out the camp followers from this forward position. There are actually far less of the monstrous humanoids overall since I'm not sure the numbers work out well as written anyway.


Darn. The kids have been hanging out with their cousins the last couple weeks while camping, so we haven't played. I might try to run a couple of encounters some weeknight after homework is done.

Just trying to keep those interested up to date.


Didn't get to play last weekend. We have a camper at a campground and it just got back from being repaired from damage from Hurricane Sandy, so we went to open it and get it ready. The kids have a long weekend due to parent-teacher conferences this week, so we'll be going up early and I hope to get some more playing in then. I did a lot of playing while camping as a teen into early twenties.

Since I used the adventure's description of "greenish herbal liquor", my players have decided there is something special about it. Perhaps I should have called it Absinthe, or Chartreuse, or even Galliano, but it's too late for that now. They have taken a bottle to Bokken to find out if there are any special properties. Is there a way to subtly tie the booze to either Nyissa or does it even make sense to try to tie it to Pitax, since they try something later?

And a related question, which may be answered by the above, where does it come from? I gave my players two bandits to help them out some, and the players have asked how they get the liquor. I'm a little worried they would go haring off after the liquor if I say such and such a merchant delivers it every couple of weeks.

Ooh. Maybe Kressle would go off and get it by herself every couple of weeks and the low-level grunts don't know where. Since she is dead, they may never know where the liquor came from.

Any other ideas? Anybody actually answer it? Did I miss the answer in the module?


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

Bree Yark!

Seriously, ajb47, so cute! Have they encoutered the hermit, lizardmen or bandits between the Caves and the Keep? What of the evil Canon (IIRC) in the Keep? Please more updates for us old timers...

My son is two. Perhaps in a few years...

They haven't done any exploring except for the caves so far. It's been mostly my daughter so far, my son was sick most of the weekend, and she is still on the edge of being able to sit at the table without any action happening for a bit. I'm working into it slowly.

I gave names to the innkeeper and her husband, the taverner, the jewel merchant and the smith (made him a dwarf). There have been minor interactions with them so far, mostly by my wife showing by example. We're getting there.

Our second session started with my wife and daughter at the Keep selling off the stuff they managed to drag back from the kobold cave, then getting rooms at the Inn.

Back to the Caves of Chaos, and they went through the Goblin caves. They came across guards who were arguing with each other ("You smell like dog." "You smell like horse."), and a pair of guards who were playing William Tell. Finding the secret door, they managed to take out the Ogre with a well-timed critical and a few magic missiles.

Yes, I've been going easy, but my daughter is 10 and I'd like her to actually get into the game. Maybe too lenient since I lost many characters when I first started playing, but when I first started, I didn't really care -- I found it fun, of course, or I wouldn't still be playing, but it wasn't on the level it is now.

After a rest, they finished off the Goblin Boss and his Sub-Boss, then found the storage room, learning there was a secret door to another section before they decided to head back to the Keep with their treasure.

Thanael wrote:
FYI there's a PF conversion available of Keep on the Borderlands here.

Thanks, but I knew about that already. I don't have it yet, mostly due to my own D&D experiences being heavily tied up in the module -- first one I ever ran, and I've run it a few times now with slightly different skins in a couple different versions of the game. I mean to say that I'm so tied up in the module that I'd rather do the work myself, if that makes any sense.

Though that project is why I went out to eBay and got most of the early modules I used to run. I just hope I can give my kids the same interest.


My 10 year old daughter and 8 year old son have been bugging my wife and I to run some Pathfinder for them again. We had already done the black dragon adventure with them using the premade characters (cleric, rogue, fighter) and wanted to do something else this time. As I was trying to figure out what, I remembered that I had reacquired the first adventure I ever ran for a friend -- Keep on the Borderlands.

So we made characters for them - elven black-dragon-blooded sorceress, human cleric of Gorum, wife ran Merisiel. And they just finished clearing out the kobold cave. Part of the modifications I'm doing in my head are changing it a bit so that the creatures living there are more warriors (so no females and young to deal with) and being forged into a fighting force by the Temple folk.

So it looks like our family fun times will now also include Pathfinder instead of just the Wii or Robot Combat League viewing.

Thanks, Paizo!


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Marc Radle wrote:

Dear God! For about three seconds I panicked ... and then remembered what day today was ...

I really hate April Fools Day ...

My house sounded something like this:

"What!?! No, frickin' way! What were you think-- wait, life sized Millenium Falcon? Ohhhh, stupid April Fool's Day. Though Lisa might sell the place for a life-sized Millenium Falcon."


Also the trait mentions that you have "no substantive proof of your claims" and "claiming nobility without evidence gets you called a liar". It's possible the PC was lied to, or that the PC has misinterpreted a scrap of evidence.

Like Irnk says, the purpose of the trait is to get the character to create their own place to show their own worth.

And I got a text yesterday that the fighter wants to change to a Magus. So we'll have a little bit of arcane magic.

Cheapy wrote:

One of the unwritten rules of the game is that a mount needs to be at least one size category larger than the person riding it, so you won't actually be able to ride a medium sized tiger as a medium person. It's annoying that it's unwritten though.

I thought that was the case. I probably read it in a FAQ or errata somewhere back in 3.5.

He has described his character as small (not halfling small, but small for human), though, so I may allow the riding with the penalties for "not meant as a mount" and make him get a special saddle or take the bareback penalty, too. He didn't sound like he planned on riding it into battle anyway.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

There is no "tiger", "leopard" or "lion" animal companion for druids. There is the "small cat" and the "big cat" animal companion. If you want it for a mount, you'll definitely want the "big cat".

My druid "flavors" the "big cat" to be a tiger. She rides her tiger all over the place.

Right, but the listing on page 54 says, "Cat, Big (Lion, Tiger)". And those were the stats we actually used. But I was looking for rules on what size a mount has to be and came across the Bestiary entry for Tiger and almost spluttered my coffee all over my laptop. So I went to check what the actual listing under Druid said and then figured I would ask here to make sure I was reading it correctly.


Last night, my players rolled up their characters. I don't have in depth backgrounds yet, but I know races and classes.

Half-orc Ranger (Spell-less, from Open Design)
Human Cleric of Torag
Human Fighter
Human Druid (with Tiger Companion)
Half-elf Oracle of the Wind
Human Paladin

Is the lack of Arcane magic going to be something I have to watch out for? It also looks like they are going to have to be creative about finding and disabling traps, if/when they come up.

Any other things I should take into consideration?



I have a player that is going this route and I want to make sure I have it right. The animal companion is *not* the Tiger from the Bestiary, right? Because that seems like way too much. As an animal companion, it starts out more as a young, not fully grown tiger (size Medium) and grows at 7th level.

Also, can a medium-sized human ride a medium sized tiger? He wants to do this, but it seems off to me. Should I just keep the -5 on Ride checks in mind since the animal is not a normal mount type animal? Make sure he gets an exotic riding saddle and has taught the Tricks to get it to use it?

Thanks in advance.


Yeah, I may be late to the party, but that just means I (and my group) can benefit from others' experiences, which I am eagerly reading about. But I've been away from what I'll term "leveled" fantasy for a bit. We've been trying other systems for a little over a year now, and they were fun, but my group is ready to get back to where we started.

So, Pathfinder (moving from D&D 3.5) and I decided to pick Kingmaker. Because I've wanted to run it since it came out.

And my first question is what resources have others used for their tabletop Kingmaker campaigns? I know the Bandit Outpost flip-mat is Oleg's. But what other flip-mats or map packs fit well? Any other props or add-ons that enhance the experience?

Thanks in advance.


Neil Spicer wrote:
Patrick Renie wrote:
You should try having co-workers who keep referencing video games and TV shows older than most house pets.
You mean they've never heard of Pong or Goldar, Silvar, and Gam from The Space Giants? How about Ultraman? No? Oooh! Or Inframan! Now there's an obscure movie screen hero. :-D

Ha! I almost went with Goldar instead of Johnny Socko. Almost mentioned Ultraman, too, but I thought there were a few versions that might have leaked forward since I was a kid.

A "have to admit I have never heard of Inframan, though" J

James Sutter wrote:
not knowing what Voltron is... What's the world coming to?

Not knowing what Voltron is? Next you'll be saying they don't know Johnny Socko!

A "Robot, Launch!" J

Is this metal or plastic? Right now I have a little bit too big US Soccer bottle opener on my key ring and I'd like a smaller one, but I have broken way too many plastic ones.


We also offered a special messageboard tag for people who committed to an ongoing Pathfinder subscription before they even saw the first volume (not just transitioning issues from their Dungeon or Dragon subscription, but making an actual commitment beyond that). These early supporters received the Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber tag, which they'll keep for as long as they keep their AP subscription going.

I misunderstood that there would be a tag and how to get it. Looking back through my order history, it seems I had renewed my Dungeon and Dragon subscriptions about a week before the announcement. It took me a minute or three to get over my disappointment that I had just a week before renewed, but the ability to roll that renewal over into new stuff was a great idea. I've been hooked ever since.

It looks like I got the module subscription pretty early, though.


Tyrrell wrote:

Apparently feint only works for removing the dex bonus to AC. Is there some way that a character can use feint to reduce his opponent's combat maneuver defense?

Is seems odd that a character can distract to stab a target but not use feint to his advantage when he's using combat maneuvers like disarm, dirty trick, or steal.

Under Combat Maneuver Defense:

d20pfsrd.com wrote:

Miscellaneous Modifiers

A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.

So the lowered Dex bonus already affects the CMD for further combat maneuvers. At least that's the way I read this.

Just received my subscription order and it is missing Isles of the Shackles print edition. I received everything else that I was supposed to. If you could ship that out to me when you get a chance, I'd appreciate it.


AJ Butterwick

Thraxital wrote:
Eric Clingenpeel wrote:

Ok, in a round you can take a standard action and a move action. What that first sentence is saying is you can swap a standard action for a move so you can take two move actions in a round if you so choose. Just because you take a move action before anything else (like loading a weapon) doesn't preclude you from later taking a standard action too. Its saying you CAN take a move action in place of a standard, not if you take a move action you don't get a standard.

I would think that interpretation resonable, but it is a seperate concept and thus should have its own paragraph. Since they started with that sentence, it seems tied to it.

Page 181, under "Action Types", second paragraph:

"In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action."

These don't have to be in any particular order. The player used a move action to reload the crossbow, which still leaves a standard action for shooting it. Since no distance was moved during any other action, a 5' step is still allowed. Conversely, if the 5' step is taken first, then no other movement is possible (barring feats) for the rest of the round.


I think they got "Vegan" wrong. Does that say Provolone on that sandwich?


The accumulated rock knowledge of Ronnie James Dio? Dio was the only one who could handle that much awesome.


I would "do it" by being a DM and allowing the bonus damage to include Strength, enhancement, and feats (Weapon Spec, et al), but not including extra dice (flaming, sneak attack). And I'd allow it to work with Spring Attack and Charge and such. And after reading this thread, I'd take a long look at making it one feat that scales with BAB, which is something I've thought about, but not done, in 3.5 campaigns with other feat chains (esp. TWF).

Just my 2 coppers.


And me having placed an order two days ago.

Happy birthday, Paizo! Here's to many more. And a pinch to grow an inch.


He's a Cylon? Oh, I thought you said frakking.

Nice to have a current FAQ to browse through when needed.


Got it, thanks.

Don't know if this is a problem, though -- when I clicked on the name, it just downloaded the PDF. I didn't get the "5 second start" message. My name and the date and whatnot are still on every page, but no message.

Thanks again,


That's right. 'Cause I don't come here with the easy problems.



I ordered "Fellowship of the Black Oak" with this order, but it isn't downloading. When I click on the name of the PDF in my list, it acts like it is trying to download, but when the "Important, yada yada, 5 seconds, blah blah" is supposed to come up, it doesn't. Basically, the My Downloads page just reloads without actually downloading the PDF. Though it does show that I tried in the "last download" column.

All the other PDFs in this order have downloaded correctly.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Fighter: Ok, i move up to the monster and whack it for.. yes! 100 points of damage.

Wizard: I move back one kilometer and Cast Tensers Roaving meat packing plant. It deals 11ty million points of damage save for half , purifies the creatures remains, cuts them up into delicious snacks and teleports the snacks to orphanages around the world. The place where the monster died will now grow tomatoes the size of a kobold that emit sparkles under the moonlight.

I'm not sure, but I think you may be exaggerating just a little bit right here.

There is a 3.5 book for Forgotten Realms called Power of Faerun that is about dealing with high-level characters. I haven't delved into it very deeply, but it looked OK when I was skimming it. It does suggest that the types of adventures have to change. Also, Champions of Valor/Champions of Ruin might have ideas about adventures to steal.

In short, it's tough, but there are ways to do run high-level, as has been pointed out already in this thread. You need to change the types of adventures the PC's have to deal with.


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I have no interest in 20+ content. I believe that at some point, a story has to end.

I have some interest in 15 to 20 content. Whether that is modules or some sort of handbook to help handle some of the issues that crop up when PC's have that much power or that many abilities.

Actually, I'd really like a handbook on how to handle PC's with those abilities.


Wow. Now this is some thread drift.


Steve Geddes wrote:
I don't really know much about it, but there have been "WoTC layoff" threads periodically popping up for several years as I understand it. I don't know that it says much about how they're doing, more that they go through staff relatively rapidly.

Yeah, I get that. I read this on a blog that links from rpgbloggers.com which may or may not be a good source, so I thought I'd ask. I don't post much, but this place and the folks who make it are great, so I wanted to ask.


Gary Teter wrote:
Lisa answered that question about office tours because she is Just. That. Awesome.

Dude (I was in my late teens in the '80s), I know it. I had a lot of things I love about Paizo before, but somehow, that now tops the list. Is there anyway to put "Just. That. Awesome" in the tag in her parentheses?

Gary Teter wrote:

Paizo's doing great. But, you know, if you wanted to turn your list of subs into a superscriber tag and purple avatar border, we won't complain. Not one bit.

Seriously thinking about it. Also the Flip-Mat, Map Pack one. There are only a couple of those I skipped and I'm getting tired of going through the list every couple months to try and remember which ones I already have.


This is the original quote, and I can't find who posted it (after several pages of several searches on Google, but this was on tvtropes):

-> ''"It bears saying: if up against a logic-impervious DM who thinks Core is balanced and Psionics isn't, then the most powerful way to disprove that is to play a C.o.D. (Cleric or Druid). Noncore material will not be necessary unless you are going for pure overkill. So by all means, if you must win that argument, take you C.o.D. to town. Annihilate the opposition. Make the {{NPC}}s and other players scream "Oh no, it's C.o.D.zilla!!!!!" in badly dubbed English. Breathe radioactive fire. Knock down buildings. Then stomp out of the burning Tokyo that is the ruins of the game and swim off into the ocean, seeking a DM with some basic cognitive functions."''

It was based on the original spell descriptions before errata (where Divine Favor and Divine Power and Righteous Might gave some sweet enhancements), and the Natural Spell feat and Wildshape Armor gave very good bonuses. As far as I can tell. I was never a huge proponent of this, except to learn what to discourage as a GM. My group is not really a group of powergamers, but accidents happen.


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