The first difference is that a number of people seem to feel that, in the run-up to 4Es release, WOTC pulled a number of moves that constituted an insult to them, personally. Did they actually do it? Heck if I know, I wasn't paying enough attention.
Whether it was or not isn't even important. The fact is that a whole lot of people feel insulted, and the company never commented on it. That is crass incompetence at best, and an insult in itself at worst.
If a whole lot of people you might want to give you money state that they feel insulted, the only smart thing you can do is to offer an apology and explain away. Something like "We never intended this as an insult, and are sorry people are interpreting it that way. It was meant in good fun, and we're sorry it wasn't received that way."
That's basically damage control 101. And they didn't do it. Like so many other times, wizards of the hasbro made a bad decision and then made it worse by handling it the wrong way.
Because of that, many people dislike (or hate, if you will), wotchasbro. They might not even have an opinion about 4e, but won't buy it because they won't give the company that makes it any money.
Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our roleplaying games. I can only hope that anyone that is in the industry for a while, and it out of work, finds a new avenue to express their creativity. As to our individuals preferences, all we can do is respect each other, and if we defend a specific thought or belief, then try to do it in a courteous manner. Sometimes a person will intentionally pulls your strings, and it is much easier to do this on the internet, versus taking to someone accross the table.
It is the nature of the these boards to keep your friends close, and your enemies closer, i.e. you will find 4E supporters on the forums.
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3. We Americans aren't generally that much of a civil culture to start with.
Without naming Canada or any other North Atlantic nations, I'd love to know the ones that are culturally more civil than the US.
Just about any Western European nation(especially the UK), most Asian ones, The problem with the United States is that it doesn't have a cohesive ethnic heritage so we tend to see each other more as strangers than most. The various regions of the country might almost be seperate nations in outlook. The widening income gaps aren't helping either.And yes I'm naming those North Atlantic nations because culturally they share the most with us given that the major waves of immigration to this country, including it's founding groups came from there.
I've split half my adult life between Europe and Asia--I'm 37 years old, by the way.
Once you live in a culture where you are essentially a nonperson to anyone who does not personally know you, where you will be treated as though you are quite literally invisible, where children literally get stepped on and enjoy virtually none of the protections we take for granted, where queues are an incomprehensible concept and getting something or getting somewhere is truly every man for himself, where strangers will let a door slam in your face, where ageism is so culturally important that the norm is to interrupt/cut off/take from/ someone a year your younger, where getting pushed aside to make room for someone they know is acceptable (because they don't know you, so you don't really exist), etc, etc, etc, etc...then talk to me about the civility of 'most' of Asia.
Spend some time, LazarX, and I don't mean a week of vacation--spend some time in nations around the world and you'll be quite happy for the civility of the average American.
Whether it was or not isn't even important. The fact is that a whole lot of people feel insulted, and the company never commented on it. That is crass incompetence at best, and an insult in itself at worst.
If a whole lot of people you might want to give you money state that they feel insulted, the only smart thing you can do is to offer an apology and explain away. Something like "We never intended this as an insult, and are sorry people are interpreting it that way. It was meant in good fun, and we're sorry it wasn't received that way."
That's basically damage control 101. And they didn't do it. Like so many other times, wizards of the hasbro made a bad decision and then made it worse by handling it the wrong way.
Because of that, many people dislike (or hate, if you will), wotchasbro. They might not even have an opinion about 4e, but won't buy it because they won't give the company that makes it any money.
You assume those you claim to have been personally insulted are acting like rational adults, and that apologizing to them would have changed anything in the slightest.
I disagree.
Now I want someone to create a supervillain called the Jade Punster. And I want him to be played by that guy from Community and The Hangover, but he'll wear a long, Bartonesque wig and have jade fingernails.You see Ken Jeong playing me? That could be fun.
Bartonesque wig... that's now on Google. Thanks for that. <G>
David Gross would be all over this, right now.
Better this way than the other inevitable option: becoming that which it was meant to denounce.
Sorry for derailing the thread Evil Lincoln!
Curse my prescience. :)
Whether it was or not isn't even important. The fact is that a whole lot of people feel insulted, and the company never commented on it. That is crass incompetence at best, and an insult in itself at worst.
If a whole lot of people you might want to give you money state that they feel insulted, the only smart thing you can do is to offer an apology and explain away. Something like "We never intended this as an insult, and are sorry people are interpreting it that way. It was meant in good fun, and we're sorry it wasn't received that way."
That's basically damage control 101. And they didn't do it. Like so many other times, wizards of the hasbro made a bad decision and then made it worse by handling it the wrong way.
Because of that, many people dislike (or hate, if you will), wotchasbro. They might not even have an opinion about 4e, but won't buy it because they won't give the company that makes it any money.
You assume those you claim to have been personally insulted are acting like rational adults, and that apologizing to them would have changed anything in the slightest.
I disagree.
Yeah. Everybody knows the customer is always full of fail.
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Curse my prescience. :)Better this way than the other inevitable option: becoming that which it was meant to denounce.
Sorry for derailing the thread Evil Lincoln!
Don't let it get you down. All monster stories go this way. Your creation has a good run, and then the foaming-at-the-mouth, in-bred villagers form a mob and run it down. If you're lucky, there still might be a sequel.
Whether it was or not isn't even important. The fact is that a whole lot of people feel insulted, and the company never commented on it. That is crass incompetence at best, and an insult in itself at worst.
If a whole lot of people you might want to give you money state that they feel insulted, the only smart thing you can do is to offer an apology and explain away. Something like "We never intended this as an insult, and are sorry people are interpreting it that way. It was meant in good fun, and we're sorry it wasn't received that way."
That's basically damage control 101. And they didn't do it. Like so many other times, wizards of the hasbro made a bad decision and then made it worse by handling it the wrong way.
Because of that, many people dislike (or hate, if you will), wotchasbro. They might not even have an opinion about 4e, but won't buy it because they won't give the company that makes it any money.
You assume those you claim to have been personally insulted are acting like rational adults, and that apologizing to them would have changed anything in the slightest.
I disagree.
Yeah. Everybody knows the customer is always full of fail.
Except for costumers with a certain kind of loyalty, boss.
I can already see the results of WotC apologizing...
"See, they're trying to claim they're sorry! They know this is CRAP! But watch, they'll give apologies left and right, but they won't stop cramming this GARBAGE new edition down our throats! They're just trying to placate us to make us buy their not-D&D!"
I can already see the results of WotC apologizing...
"See, they're trying to claim they're sorry! They know this is CRAP! But watch, they'll give apologies left and right, but they won't stop cramming this GARBAGE new edition down our throats! They're just trying to placate us to make us buy their not-D&D!"
Where's my pitchfork?
3. We Americans aren't generally that much of a civil culture to start with.
Without naming Canada or any other North Atlantic nations, I'd love to know the ones that are culturally more civil than the US.
Just about any Western European nation(especially the UK), most Asian ones, The problem with the United States is that it doesn't have a cohesive ethnic heritage so we tend to see each other more as strangers than most. The various regions of the country might almost be seperate nations in outlook. The widening income gaps aren't helping either.And yes I'm naming those North Atlantic nations because culturally they share the most with us given that the major waves of immigration to this country, including it's founding groups came from there.
I've split half my adult life between Europe and Asia--I'm 37 years old, by the way.
Once you live in a culture where you are essentially a nonperson to anyone who does not personally know you, where you will be treated as though you are quite literally invisible, where children literally get stepped on and enjoy virtually none of the protections we take for granted, where queues are an incomprehensible concept and getting something or getting somewhere is truly every man for himself, where strangers will let a door slam in your face, where ageism is so culturally important that the norm is to interrupt/cut off/take from/ someone a year your younger, where getting pushed aside to make room for someone they know is acceptable (because they don't know you, so you don't really exist), etc, etc, etc, etc...then talk to me about the civility of 'most' of Asia.
Spend some time, LazarX, and I don't mean a week of vacation--spend some time in nations around the world and you'll be quite happy for the civility of the average American.
This is true, unless myself and other Americans I have spoken are having a mass hallucination. I was in Asia for 5 years, and if you are not a citizen of that country expect to get treated like crap. There is also a good chance you will be treated like a second class citizen in many criminal cases even if you are the victim of a crime also. Does that mean one can not go to anywhere in Asia and have a good time? I will say that you can have a good time, and there are wonderful people there, but I will also say be careful and get info at least on the area you plan to be in.
Where's my pitchfork?I can already see the results of WotC apologizing...
"See, they're trying to claim they're sorry! They know this is CRAP! But watch, they'll give apologies left and right, but they won't stop cramming this GARBAGE new edition down our throats! They're just trying to placate us to make us buy their not-D&D!"
I don't think you could even get a mob together for the pitchfork treatment at this point. My own personal "give-a-(care)-ometer" is planted firmly in the ground.
The geiger-mueller counter isn't on mute, and it isn't clicking, baybee.I tested it with the 137 Cesium poker chip this morning.
Focus feature take me away!
*blink*
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For me I vastly prefer pathfinder to 4e. Mainly because of the cosmology, alignment, and class changes. I disliked all of those, but I bought the books nonetheless, and will run 4e games upon request. I may not like it, but I have no problem letting someone else enjoy it, I didn't see the big deal.
Whatever I know about what they did or did not do during the lead-up to 4E is hearsay at best.
Hunt down the 4e troll video. It goes like this: People kept complaining about some of the things wotc said about 4e. So they made a video where a troll (the D&D monster) sat in front of a PC and grumbled about/wrote all the things people complained about 4e. And then a dragon (the one that pretty much represented wotc as a company) shat on the troll.
Those who had these complaints considered this to mean this: Those who complain about 4e must be trolls, and wotc pretty much s#!&s on them.
Not an unreasonable interpretation I think.
Reasonable or not, people saw it that way. They said so. wotc never bothered to apologise, or even say that this was not totally what they meant.
As I said: Doesn't even matter whether people were overreacting, if you don't even comment on it, you pretty much admit guilt.
Jeremy: Unfriend!
Is it just me, or does the monkey look a little out of focus?
stuff
Dear Chaos Man,
You know you could have been much more chaotic, saved yourself a bunch of typing, and put it this way:
Hoping that this post has cast a new light on the situation.
Ask A Succubus Censor.
Bringing much needed chaos and real meaning to Paizo messageboards since June 2011.
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I thought that was what Diplomacy was for.Is it worth losing sleep and friends over?I lose sleep over D&D all the time. Usually because I'm playing it.
But as far as losing friends goes, the only game worth losing friends over is Munchkin. Everyone knows that.
This man has it right. It's always Diplomacy that shatters friendships.
So they're chastising WOTC for failing to respond to some idiot's YouTube video?
The "some idiot" in this case is WotC. It's their video, they made it.
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stuffCan we take the America bashing elsewhere please? This thread is going south fast enough without that crap. And you find dicks in every culture, even Canada ...
I'll give you this: At least TTRPG fans don't usually riot
It might have caused hasbro and WotC to think twice about things if we did. Or it might just make a new board game.
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Whatever I know about what they did or did not do during the lead-up to 4E is hearsay at best.Hunt down the 4e troll video. It goes like this: People kept complaining about some of the things wotc said about 4e. So they made a video where a troll (the D&D monster) sat in front of a PC and grumbled about/wrote all the things people complained about 4e. And then a dragon (the one that pretty much represented wotc as a company) shat on the troll.
Those who had these complaints considered this to mean this: Those who complain about 4e must be trolls, and wotc pretty much s@#*s on them.
Not an unreasonable interpretation I think.
Reasonable or not, people saw it that way. They said so. wotc never bothered to apologise, or even say that this was not totally what they meant.
As I said: Doesn't even matter whether people were overreacting, if you don't even comment on it, you pretty much admit guilt.
Except that's not what happened.
Here's what happened.
A group of annoying sycophants endlessly praise the dragon as their lord and master that does no wrong. At the same time, an annoying troll makes useless and meaningless comments on the internet. The dragon poops on the latter group, then lords over the former.
The whole point of the video wasn't LOL I POOP ON YOU. It was "Wow, both groups are kinda rediculous, so let's poke fun at them." Incidentally, the dragon - WotC in your own belief - is displayed as greedy and malevolent. A red dragon, the most evil creature in D&D.
The whole thing was tongue in cheek, but you and so many others were too busy nailing yourselves to a cross to notice that.
Personally I love that video because it so perfectly illustrates what IS wrong with gamers - they need, need to be martyrs. Someone has to be attacking them. Nerds put themselves in this incredible non-existent siege mentality that everything is out to get them, and that any disagreement is some kind of strange attack.
The video didn't make fun of you. It didn't make fun of me. It didn't make fun of anyone on these forums, or any other forums. It made fun of the idea of a "troll on the internet" mashing his hands on the keyboard and mumbling nonsequitors. It made fun of the idea of sycophant kobolds loving and praising their master dragon even as the dragon eats people. It made fun of dragons pooping on things. Unless you are literally a big green regenerating troll with claws, it didn't target you.
But you wanted it to.
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Plenty actually. Makes me almost ashamed to be a gamer. Coupled with an almost delibrate purposeful naviety. If they hate a company it must be a greedy profit obseesed entity with no regard for its fanbase. Yet if they like the company they close their eyes even if that company engages in the same behavior. I never understood the whole profit argument. We live in the most proift oriented section of the world. No matter what any company tells you. How many non-profit rpg companies are their. A huge undeserved sense of entitlement. Because someone spends X amount of dollars on rpg books that means a company is not allowed to release a new edition. Even if that company would go bankrupt. My PC is already out of date. I'm not going around telling Dell or any other computer manufactuer not to release a newer faster PC because I spent X amount of dollars on my PC. Saying bad things about an rpg without actually having read the rpg or just parroting someone else opinion. Essentials gets accused of being a "stealth" edition when it is anything but. I can take my 4E character use all of the character without any change and drop him into a Essentials game no problem and vice versa. I like to see you take a 3.0 Ranger against a 3.5 Ranger and tell me if it's still worth playing the 3.0., version. I don't care how many years of experience you have with rpgs. If you have not read it I'm not interested in what you have to say.
The whole thing was tongue in cheek, but you and so many others were too busy nailing yourselves to a cross to notice that.
Oh snap!
I agree in principle, though. I thought reaction to those videos was more than a little silly.
If you have not read it I'm not interested in what you have to say.
I'd alter this to say "If you have not PLAYED it I'm not interested in what you have to say"
I'm a firm believer in "The Map is not the Territory". There have been several games that I thought would play like pure crap that I absolutely fell in love with during play (DC HEROES Megs editions for example along with to a lesser extent RoleMaster). And there have been other games that I thought that I'd really like but then turned out to be not my cup of tea (Warhammer 2nd Edition and Shadowrun for example. I'd probably play Shadowrun again with a good and TRUSTED GM though).
I was a playtester (1 session) of 4E here in NYC in Dec of 07 (IIRC) and I had fun with the game but remember feeling (I'm allowed to feel in terms of talking about a game right? Because some people around here dont think that FEELINGS are valid.) that it played very differently from some of the previous editions. I wasnt the only one at the table who felt like that. I didnt think that it felt like D&D. It felt like a miniature skirmish wargame with RPG elements attached to it. But I waited until the release and bought the 4E gift set and ran the game myself for about a months time (total) and felt he same way. Solidly designed game but not what I t for my Fantasy Roleplaying Game experience. So it sits on my shelf unused for the most part.
I have to tell that preface so people know where I'm coming from. I'm not one of these anti- 4E crazies who froth at the mouth about WOTC murdering their favorite game. There are things that WOTC has done that I dont care for, but there are things that Apple has done that I dont care for and I'm willing to drop sick amounts of money to buy their products.
The difference here is that Apple still makes products that I'm interested in buying, WOTC out side of the two boardgames that I bought from them does not. If they ever got around to re-releasing PDF's of their 1st ED and BECMI materials that would probably change but until then? theyre just another company who doesn't have a product that I wish to buy.
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Plenty actually. Makes me almost ashamed to be a gamer. Coupled with an almost delibrate purposeful naviety. If they hate a company it must be a greedy profit obseesed entity with no regard for its fanbase. Yet if they like the company they close their eyes even if that company engages in the same behavior. I never understood the whole profit argument. We live in the most proift oriented section of the world. No matter what any company tells you. How many non-profit rpg companies are their. A huge undeserved sense of entitlement. Because someone spends X amount of dollars on rpg books that means a company is not allowed to release a new edition. Even if that company would go bankrupt. My PC is already out of date. I'm not going around telling Dell or any other computer manufactuer not to release a newer faster PC because I spent X amount of dollars on my PC. Saying bad things about an rpg without actually having read the rpg or just parroting someone else opinion. Essentials gets accused of being a "stealth" edition when it is anything but. I can take my 4E character use all of the character without any change and drop him into a Essentials game no problem and vice versa. I like to see you take a 3.0 Ranger against a 3.5 Ranger and tell me if it's still worth playing the 3.0., version. I don't care how many years of experience you have with rpgs. If you have not read it I'm not interested in what you have to say.
I don't think that anyone here implies that Paizo is nice and doesn't want to take our money. We know that they do. That is a large part of why they make Pathfinder and all related stuff. So that they can get paid at the end of the month and feed their families, pay bills, go on trips etc...i wouldn't go as far as to say that Paizo is greedy though. They churn out books at a very reasonable rate. And i have not seen a decline in quality of those books yet.
WotC was purchased by hasbro. And then they made 4th edition. And it looked NOTHING like 3.5. Nothing. Only the ability scores were the same, and names of some classes. I played 1st edition, 2nd edition and 3rd edition during my gaming career. To me 4th edition seemed like a completely different game, not relying on anything previulsy made, which IMO is one of the great stuff about 3rd edition. It made sure to look like previous editions a little, through fluff and some mechanics. I was looking at a completely unfamilliar game, one in which i couldn't rely on previous knowledge of the systems that came before that to assume things. And that irked me. And I felt betrayed. Maybe it is stupid to feel betrayed by a bunch of people I never met or even e-mailed in my life, but i did. I always had this idealistic belief that TTRPGS were made by gamers for gamers, and that those gamers in power listened to gamers that they made games for. This was something I and the majority of people did not want, and they didn't even try to say someting about that. It hurt actualy. It hurt to realize that they didn't give a damn about us. So i decided not to leave a cent in their cash register, and i have not. Then Paizo came and made Pathfinder and, well thus far they haven't dissapointed. At all. And it seems that they will not try to do that.
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While I think Paizo could have pulled off Pathfinder. I do not think Wotc would have been able too imo. You already had a bunch of gamers already unhappy with another new edition coming out so soon after 3.5 was released. Coming out with yet the same system as is with little to no changes would have alienated more of the fanabse and made them less profit. I will admit that 4E is not the perfect game I thought it too be when I bought it. Yet at the same time I feel that the money for me at least was well spent. Having to buy the same rules again with no changes would have made me very unahppy. They had two cohoices to make. Keep everything as is or release a new edition. They chose imo the smart one for them as a company. If Paizo ever releases a new edition I would be very surpised if it looks anything like the one we have now. For one no one would buy the same rules again a second time. At least not at full price. And to fix some of the problems with the game they will have to lose backwards compitiability.
I get what you are trying to say about being hurt because a company does not care yet unfortunately that is how business works imo. It's not fair and it's not nice. When Microsoft dropped backwards comitabilty from it's operating system yeah I was unhappy at first yet moved on. What could I do really. I had a bunch of comupter games that would not run on the latest OS at the time. Unless you are either an investor or rich or both most companies are not going to stop and care what you think. It's all about profit and the bottom line while making a quality product. That's what people forgot to make that quality produc you need profit to do so. i'ts just not going to magically appear out of thin air.
To be honest while I like 4E and Pathfinder lately I have been more impressed with non-D20 rpg. Neither company is perfect and bnoth imo have tiehr faults.
My homework for the people here stating that 4e is not D&D but 3e is? That 3e was WotC LISTENING TO THE FANS and only delivering to them what they wanted and was this glorious flawless thing nobody hated?
Head over to Dragonfoot and ask what they think about this.
"The new D&D is too rule intensive. It's relegated the Dungeon Master to being an entertainer rather than master of the game. It's done away with the archetypes, focused on nothing but combat and character power, lost the group cooperative aspect, bastardized the class-based system, and resembles a comic-book superheroes game more than a fantasy RPG where a player can play any alignment desired, not just lawful good. "
-Gary Gygax, 2004
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Or perhaps we have the OSR movement, many of whom don't like and edition of D&D later than 2e, who are probably being insulted every time someone claims 3e/Pathfinder/4e are true to the spirit of D&D. But then I don't expect anyone to apologise to them either.
I'm not insulted, but I do find it amazingly hypocritical whenever a 3.X/PFRPG fan claims that 4E isn't "the real D&D" because it dared to change so much. Amazingly hypocritical, and hilariously amusing. Especially since so many of them seem ignorant of the fact that D&D actually existed before 3.X.
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Whelp, if that video wasn't insulting, I challenge you the next time a customer annoys you to draw a caricature of them, with a caricature of yourself taking a dump on their head.
Show it to them.
THEN, explain to your manager that they really need to get a sense of humor about the whole thing.
Maybe get a friend to tell the customer that it really wasn't a picture of them, and quit nailing themself to a cross.
Because,
the customer is ALWAYS full of fail.
Whelp, if that video wasn't insulting, I challenge you the next time a customer annoys you to draw a caricature of them, with a caricature of yourself taking a dump on their head.
Show it to them.
THEN, explain to your manager that they really need to get a sense of humor about the whole thing.
Maybe get a friend to tell the customer that it really wasn't a picture of them, and quit nailing themself to a cross.
Because,
the customer is ALWAYS full of fail.
Here, I have a hammer you can borrow if that helps, those nails can be tough.
Here, I have a hammer you can borrow if that helps, those nails can be tough.Whelp, if that video wasn't insulting, I challenge you the next time a customer annoys you to draw a caricature of them, with a caricature of yourself taking a dump on their head.
Show it to them.
THEN, explain to your manager that they really need to get a sense of humor about the whole thing.
Maybe get a friend to tell the customer that it really wasn't a picture of them, and quit nailing themself to a cross.
Because,
the customer is ALWAYS full of fail.
No thanks. You can keep the hammer.
Guess where.
Here, I have a hammer you can borrow if that helps, those nails can be tough.Whelp, if that video wasn't insulting, I challenge you the next time a customer annoys you to draw a caricature of them, with a caricature of yourself taking a dump on their head.
Show it to them.
THEN, explain to your manager that they really need to get a sense of humor about the whole thing.
Maybe get a friend to tell the customer that it really wasn't a picture of them, and quit nailing themself to a cross.
Because,
the customer is ALWAYS full of fail.No thanks. You can keep the hammer.
Guess where.
Someone's mad~
Alternately, are you saying that you self identify with a literal troll who mashes the keyboard to spew nonsensical insults? Interesting.
Personally, I would not choose to self identify as such.
Don't be a dick.
How?
Wow! Talk about "pot calling kettle".
I'm not mad, and I know who I am and I know who they meant.
So, again.
I challenge you to draw a picture of your next annoying customer getting shat on, by you, and explain the whole thing away, explain that the customer needs to grow a sense of humor, and get off his or her cross, and if you don't get fired I'll be amazed. That's the sheer arrogance and sense of entitlement they displayed by putting that thing on the internet, and the only defendable explanation is that they are so utterly bad at communicating with other people that they don't realize any of this because of their own social ineptitude.
And the only people who are buying that crap are the kobolds frankly. The trolls are too sophisticated.
Maybe some people are choosing to self-identify with the socially inept. ::Shrugs:: I'd rather be a gregarious troll.
I've split half my adult life between Europe and Asia--I'm 37 years old, by the way.
Once you live in a culture where you are essentially a nonperson to anyone who does not personally know you, where you will be treated as though you are quite literally invisible, where children literally get stepped on and enjoy virtually none of the protections we take for granted, where queues are an incomprehensible concept and getting something or getting somewhere is truly every man for himself, where strangers will let a door slam in your face, where ageism is so culturally important that the norm is to interrupt/cut off/take from/ someone a year your younger, where getting pushed aside to make room for someone they know is acceptable (because they don't know you, so you don't really exist), etc, etc, etc, etc...then talk to me about the civility of 'most' of Asia.
Spend some time, LazarX, and I don't mean a week of vacation--spend some time in nations around the world and you'll be quite happy for the civility of the average American.
I live in Taiwan. Taiwanese are as polite as can be.
Traffic is hell, but manners are excellent.
Culture shock aside, there are traditional Asian manners that are taken very seriously.
Thailand is a case in point. The people are bound by much more restrictive codes of behavior, and more rigid social mores and manners than any western country I have been in.
England is the closest to Asia in manners, in my experience.
Old people getting preference is not lack of manners. It is manners different to yours.
As to the Confucian focus on the family rendering strangers invisible, I am not invisible in Asia. I am stared at obliquely, and some children whisper to their parents "Look! a foreigner!" with the sort of delight I reserve for rare bird sightings.