|
I'm running my first Pathfinder campain for almost 2 years now and i love the way Paizo "saved" d&d from the worst incarnation of the game EVER (E.I. 4th ed.)!
I'm playing since basic (when races were class actualy and level 1 cleric did'nt had spell yet!) and DM'ing since mid advanced 1ts. edition (yes we played temple of elemental evil, cave of chaos and keep on the borderland every summer for years!).
After all these years (20+) two of the same players are still playing with me! Our best experience/memories are tied to the Ravenloft Era (5 years overall!)
Long story short i (we) loved D&D for all these years and still enjoying it today under Pathfinder and thanx to Paizo and there incredible commitment!
But the more it goes the more i feel like an outdated old nostalgic dinosaur.
I still enjoy the good old fun of "nightly random encounters" but now it's totaly out of the equasion with spells like rope trick et all. No i won't have all my random monsters running around the country side equiped with wands of dispel magic.
I like good old ambush and heroic fight but one casting of confusion and it's down the drain. The players can go on with their trek while the ambush party are fighting each other to death in a never ending wheel of you hit me then i must hit you!
Again i wont resort only to using undead and other "mind effect immuned" treath only to counter balanced the legit use of what the game as to offer the players.
All this to say that all my "confort zone" as been broken into pieces and apparently my creativity can't keep up! I'm sitting between the need to make feel the players victorious and important and at the same time trying to keep an illusion of balance!
Between the druid that run around in the shape of a "spider climbing - leave no trace - spell casting - trampling" wooly mamoth, the monk that disarm whatever's holding a weapon and the sorcerer that greace anything that was not disarm (very unlikely) by the monk and that is turning mindless and inefficient any threath remaining i just don't know what to do anymore!
At this point i see only 3 options:
#1 quit playing
#2 change group that fit more with my play style
#3 resorting to unfair and/or abusive tactics (very unlickly)
Anyone have been there before that can offer/share some experience?
Use 10 point buy. Snicker with glee when your monk player begins to cry.
Use the slow experience progression.
Use only materials out of the core rulebook (no advanced blah blah stuff).
Start at level 1.
Cut character WBL by half. (And the corresponding wealth given per CR's worth of treasure.)
Welcome back, comfort zone >:)
Like the ambush party couldn't have a mage of their own really. Hold person! Confusion!
And what if sleeping is not quite possible? The players don't have to be attacked. Just make enough noise via animals down there. Or perhaps if there are foes after a party high level enough to rest in peace, they can send in someone who can find them.
stuff about player tactics
I think a the random encounters can be downgraded to not every night, and just have some of them in daytime as they are traveling from point A to point B.
As to the ease of the encounters I let the players have a lot of fun kicking butt before the "important" fights. Let them feel powerful.
The grease spell will be outdated soon enough, unless the sorcerer takes heighten spell or the one that forces 2 saves. Now if you use monsters that don't have anything to disarm......
For confusion changing monster's feats out for iron will and improved iron will also helps. I would not do it for all of the, just some.
What you do you is up the challenge. It seems the players have learned to synergize their talents to work together. Changing groups won't change that.
I would put a few sample encounters on the boards here, and let your fellow GM give you a few ideas.
We will help you learn those players something, sure will. :)
|
If you had DMed for years under 1st ed/2nd ed rules, the switch to 3.5 or Pathfinder is definitely a startling wakeup call. Thats how things went for me, and I had a very hard time with balance and mentally dealing with the change in power by the characters. Once you get used to the amount of damage your party can deal, and all the special abilities they can invoke, especially by smart players, it starts getting easier.
I think what helped me most what getting one of the APs and looking at how Paizo crafted their NPCs and challenges at different levels. Especially helpful was looking at say 10-12th level NPCs and seeing just how powerful they were supposed to be. Based on that, you get an idea of what your party is going to be able to do, and you can mentally prepare yourself for that.
This also helped me to deconstruct the AP NPCs and figure out how they were put together in the first place. Once I got better at desiging challenging encounters using similar methods, things clicked into place for me more.
I second that you will get used to this in time, and adapt. There is a learning curve and there is a culture shock. I took the leap from a very 1st Ed-centric 2nd Ed game to converting our whole campaign to 3.0 then 3.5 pretty well (a few complaints), but at least one of our longterm players was ripping out his hair for quite some time.
In time, even he got used to it, and we were able to settle back into something resembling our old games.
Remember that there are other ways to challenge a party. Not everything need devolve into combat. Combat may seem more complicated, and the spell selection may seem of a different flavor, but riddles, puzzles and plot will always remain the same. Just do as I do, and present riddles, puzzles, mysteries, etc., that by their nature are not solvable by a skill check, or if so, only as a last resort.
Eventually, you'll settle in and start to get some of that old flavor back.
It sounds like you're mostly frustrated over the differences in spellcasting vs. AD&D (aside from the disarming monk, which I suspect is not really that big of a problem). If you're the GM, maybe you could try a no-magic campaign as a change of pace.
There have indeed been a lot of changes over the years to the system, and some of them give a lot of grognards heartburn. Overall, however, the changes have been overwhelmingly positive, in my opinion, and 33 years in I'm still enjoying playing a lot. The ones you mention don't rank high on my list, but here are some of my thoughts:
Rope Trick: You can't get a full night's sleep in it until 8th level. The rope is always visible. Curious critters might climb on up themselves. Smart critters with the Spellcraft skill might well be able to identify exactly what it is and set an ambush for when the PCs have to descend the rope, one-by-one, in the morning. Even dumb minions might be smart enough to report the sudden appearance of a magical, unmovable, freely suspended rope to someone who can identify what it is and take proper action. In short, Rope Trick is a great spell, but not an automatic solution to nighttime encounters. Teleport, at higher levels, actually can present more problems, with PCs porting in and out whenever they feel like it. Of course, both require using precious spell slots that could be used for something else. Keep them busy enough before they rest and they might resent having to memorize Rope Trick.
SoS Spells: Confusion is just one of many SoS (Save or Suck) spells that PC spellcasters can use to end combats very quickly and (perhaps) anticlimatically. Of course, turnabout is fair play. Most of these spells allow saving throws. If the monsters are always failing their saves, it is probably because you have optimized spellcasters with very high prime attributes. To bring balance back to your game, you need to similarly optimize their opponents, or pump them up a bit. Applying the simple advanced template in the Bestiary is an easy way to do that. And, of course there a are a wide variety of encounters that are immune to such spells. While I agree that you shouldn't be making every encounter one of those, you might want to sprinkle in a few more of those if this is causing grief in your campaign.
My DM in a 3.5 game ran into a similar situation. I would suggest setting up a finale for your campaign. Prepare for your player characters to meet the ultimate evil big bad guy behind every nasty thing that is happening in your campaign world -- or at the very least to save the game world in such a grand style that they can retire from adventuring. Then the campaign ends, the players celebrats, credits roll, etc.
Then, after a short break, assuming that your players were having fun and want more -- you start over, at 1st level, with whatever changes seem appropriate based on lessons learned from your previous campaign.
Paizo "saved" d&d from the worst incarnation of the game EVER (E.I. 4th ed.)!
Oooh, Angry mob of 4e apologisers in 3..2..1 take cover!
I still enjoy the good old fun of "nightly random encounters" but now it's totaly out of the equasion with spells like rope trick et all. No i won't have all my random monsters running around the country side equiped with wands of dispel magic.
That's logical evolution for you. Evolve or become extinct. Here's how it goes:
Sadistic GM keeps sicking monsters on the party while they rest.
The unfit will be pissed that their armour is useless most of the time, so they stop gaming.
The fit see that in order to keep enjoying the game, they have to counter the night terrors effectively. They evolve rope trick and the like.
Most of the time, my players don't use rope trick and the like. I think that's because I don't overdo the night ambush thing. I do it occasionally - recently I almost killed them with a night ambush - but not so much that they become paranoid over these things. Thus, they don't feel they have to escalate this.
All this to say that all my "confort zone" as been broken into pieces and apparently my creativity can't keep up!
Ever think about your players' "comfort zone"?
The stuff you do sounds familiar to me. I had GMs who would keep up ambushes when you could least need them. Or would use things like forgetting to buy a rope gleelessly and mercifully against you. No, wait, vice versa. Things like that.
That was outside my "comfort zone".
#1 quit playing
#2 change group that fit more with my play style
#3 resorting to unfair and/or abusive tactics (very unlickly)
#4 work on your spelling and grammar.
:P
#1 quit playing
#2 change group that fit more with my play style
#3 resorting to unfair and/or abusive tactics (very unlickly)#4 work on your spelling and grammar.
:P
(I'm guessing that English isn't his first language. Maybe French?)
|
|
#1 quit playing
#2 change group that fit more with my play style
#3 resorting to unfair and/or abusive tactics (very unlickly)#4 work on your spelling and grammar.
:P
The fact that i can't spell a second language to the perfection is the least of my concern atm.
<sarcasm>
I would dare you to properly read/speak/write french before coming in on your big horse if it was not that you would probably reply back sayin that you already do with at least 5 foreign language.
so in carefull consideration not to make that post derail into flaming oblivion i wont
</end of sarcasm>
Have a good day
When you know you're outdated? When you start a thread like this.
I'm running my first Pathfinder campain for almost 2 years now and i love the way Paizo "saved" d&d from the worst incarnation of the game EVER (E.I. 4th ed.)!
Haha, ain't that the truth.
The irony, of course, is that running his game in 4th Edition would probably solve the very problem he's coming here to complain about.
Rope Trick has been in the game since 1978 at least.
I still enjoy the good old fun of "nightly random encounters" but now it's totaly out of the equasion with spells like rope trick et all.
The duration used to be 1/3 as long however, and extending the duration was more difficult.
NOOOOOOOOOOO!
I've been ninja'd
I can usually recognise Franglais when I see it. :-)
|
|
I really like the Advanced Template idea!!
I'm currently running the Serpent's Skull AP for my group. When we started 2 of 6, we increased the group size to 6. The party is just tearing through my monsters. I started giving them max HP, but that doesn't help too much. Adding Advanced Template + Max HP should provide a decent challenge without increasing the number of monsters.
A counter question to your Rope Trick dilemma: How did you counter the use of Mordenkaiden's (sp?) Mystical Mansion from 2e?
It sounds like your players have adapted to Pathfinder faster than you did. Instead of quitting, maybe it's time for someone else to take the GM reigns so you can get a different creative perspective.
Currently, I'm converting the original Tomb of Horrors (I hear wizards made the 3.5 too easy) into Pathfinder to spur my creative skills. Being a young GM, I've concentrated too much on combat and not enough on riddles and puzzles.
Sounds like worth trying!
A lot of good points you care to share here to the opposite of some others...
I would dare you to properly read/speak/write french before coming in on your big horse
High horse :P
I would like to draw attention to the ":P" that was in the first post. That indicates that it is to be taken with a big dash of humour.
But since you're being all outraged, I'd suggest getting a spell checker. Browsers come equipped with them these days. Just get the English dictionary and turn it on. This will actually help you find your errors, and unless you ignore the squiggly lines, you will learn and improve. That's what I'm doing.
I won't even try reading/speaking/writing French. I had that stuff in School for 6 years, but that was some time ago, I never really used it outside of school, and didn't like it too much. So even though my grades were quite good (but they usually were), I forgot most of it. Lucky for me, I rarely go to French websites, and they often speak my languages in the parts of France I do show up sometimes (which is really rare, still).
But I tell you what I'll do: I'll properly read/speak/write English. Before you cry foul, note that this isn't my native language. German is. Well, not quite - Saarlännisch is, there were times I had more problems speaking proper German than English.
If you don't believe me, I'll translate what I just wrote into German and do a much better job of it than google translate.
Aber da Sie sich so aufregen, schlage ich vor, die Autokorrektur zu benutzen. Browser sind heute standardmäßig damit ausgestattet. Besorgen Sie sich einfach das englische Wörterbuch und schalten sie ihn ein. Das wird Ihnen helfen, Fehler zu finden, und wenn Sie sie gestrichelten Linien nicht ignorieren, werden Sie was dazu lernen und sich verbessern. Das mache ich auch.
Ich werde nicht einmal versuchen, Französisch zu lesen/sprechen/schreiben. Ich hatte das 6 Jahre lang in der Schule, aber das ist schon lange her, ich hatte das nie außerhalb der Schule benutzt, und habe es auch nicht zu sehr gemocht. Deshalb habe ich das meiste vergessen, obwohl meine Noten ziemlich gut waren (aber das waren sie meistens). Zum Glück besuche ich selten französische Webseiten, und meine Sprache wird in den Teilen von Frankreich, wo ich dann wirklich mal auftauche (was immer noch selten ist), von vielen gesprochen.
Aber ich sage Ihnen, was ich machen werde: Ich werde korrektes Englisch lesen/sprechen/schreiben. Bevor Sie "Faul!" schreien, bedenken Sie, dass Englisch nicht meine Muttersprache ist. Meine Muttersprache ist Deutsch. Naja, nicht ganz - eigentlich ist es Saarlännisch, es gab Zeiten, wo ich mehr Probleme damit hatte, richtiges Deutsch zu sprechen, als ich mit Englisch hatte.
So there :P (<- again, this indicates that it's all in good fun)
I can usually recognise Franglais when I see it. :-)
Yeah, but you're cheating.
I'm running my first Pathfinder campain for almost 2 years now and i love the way Paizo "saved" d&d from the worst incarnation of the game EVER (E.I. 4th ed.)!
Why the hate? Germany didn't make 4e.
(Joking, joking!)
|
|
There have indeed been a lot of changes over the years to the system, and some of them give a lot of grognards heartburn. Overall, however, the changes have been overwhelmingly positive, in my opinion, and 33 years in I'm still enjoying playing a lot. The ones you mention don't rank high on my list, but here are some of my thoughts:
Rope Trick: You can't get a full night's sleep in it until 8th level. The rope is always visible. Curious critters might climb on up themselves. Smart critters with the Spellcraft skill might well be able to identify exactly what it is and set an ambush for when the PCs have to descend the rope, one-by-one, in the morning. Even dumb minions might be smart enough to report the sudden appearance of a magical, unmovable, freely suspended rope to someone who can identify what it is and take proper action. In short, Rope Trick is a great spell, but not an automatic solution to nighttime encounters. Teleport, at higher levels, actually can present more problems, with PCs porting in and out whenever they feel like it. Of course, both require using precious spell slots that could be used for something else. Keep them busy enough before they rest and they might resent having to memorize Rope Trick.
And don't forget that they are an extra-dimensional space, so any Handy Haversacks or Bags of Holdings shouldn't enter them, or bad things happen.
And don't forget that they are an extra-dimensional space, so any Handy Haversacks or Bags of Holdings shouldn't enter them, or bad things happen.
You just had to speak of the forbidden text, didn't you? Gods save us all from the coming rope-trick-extradimensional-spaces flame war!
I hope you're happy. ;)
|
|
And don't forget that they are an extra-dimensional space, so any Handy Haversacks or Bags of Holdings shouldn't enter them, or bad things happen.You just had to speak of the forbidden text, didn't you? Gods save us all from the coming rope-trick-extradimensional-spaces flame war!
I hope you're happy. ;)
*hangs my head* I'm Sorry...I didn't know it was a contentious topic.
Acyually I was using the method that my current DM uses to stop people doing similiar tricks (portable hole).
|
Currently, I'm converting the original Tomb of Horrors (I hear wizards made the 3.5 too easy) into Pathfinder to spur my creative skills.
I was actually doing the same thing for a while, but I abandoned it, since I decided that it would be a lot less trouble to convince a few players to play it under an older ruleset than to go about massively altering Pathfinder to allow for basic things like traps and poisons that actually something more than inconvenience players. I may at some point return to it, but not anytime soon.
I'm running my first Pathfinder campain for almost 2 years now and i love the way Paizo "saved" d&d from the worst incarnation of the game EVER (E.I. 4th ed.)!Why the hate? Germany didn't make 4e.
(Joking, joking!)
Not D&D 4e. But Germans made 4e (and every other e) of DSA. And that's just horrible. But the game was off to a bad start: The guy who first committed the German D&D translation made his own RPG shortly after.
But I guess I should be grateful - my buying only English D&D/PF stuff probably helped my English a lot, directly and indirectly.
Don't mention the 4th edition!I'm running my first Pathfinder campain for almost 2 years now and i love the way Paizo "saved" d&d from the worst incarnation of the game EVER (E.I. 4th ed.)!Why the hate? Germany didn't make 4e.
(Joking, joking!)
And don't forget that they are an extra-dimensional space, so any Handy Haversacks or Bags of Holdings shouldn't enter them, or bad things happen.You just had to speak of the forbidden text, didn't you? Gods save us all from the coming rope-trick-extradimensional-spaces flame war!
I hope you're happy. ;)
This has completely slipped by me. My group never uses Rope Trick these days, and the one time we did(probably 5 years ago) we didn't take Bags of Holding into consideration. Definitely going to have to keep this in mind for my new group...
|
|
Actualy, they just stop working in the rope trick...
It's probably not the right place to ask about rule question directly but since you hit my curiosity what you mean but "stop working"?
The player can't get whats inside?
The stuff inside the bag is lost?
Or whatever inside is simply "spill" back out?
Actualy, they just stop working in the rope trick...It's probably not the right place to ask about rule question directly but since you hit my curiosity what you mean but "stop working"?
The player can't get whats inside?
The stuff inside the bag is lost?
Or whatever inside is simply "spill" back out?
From the PRD:
Extradimensional Spaces
A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension. Such items do not function, however, inside another extradimensional space. If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space. For example, if a bag of holding is brought into a rope trick, the contents of the bag of holding become inaccessible until the bag of holding is taken outside the rope trick. The only exception to this is when a bag of holding and a portable hole interact, forming a rift to the Astral Plane, as noted in their descriptions.
|
|
From the PRD:
Extradimensional Spaces
A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension. Such items do not function, however, inside another extradimensional space. If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space. For example, if a bag of holding is brought into a rope trick, the contents of the bag of holding become inaccessible until the bag of holding is taken outside the rope trick. The only exception to this is when a bag of holding and a portable hole interact, forming a rift to the Astral Plane, as noted in their descriptions.
Wow... it can't be clearer than that!
Thanx.
*hangs my head* I'm Sorry...I didn't know it was a contentious topic.And don't forget that they are an extra-dimensional space, so any Handy Haversacks or Bags of Holdings shouldn't enter them, or bad things happen.You just had to speak of the forbidden text, didn't you? Gods save us all from the coming rope-trick-extradimensional-spaces flame war!
I hope you're happy. ;)
I think we're safe for now, but that bit of text has caused such flame wars...
"Bad things happen when you play with ED spaces. See, the spell description says so!"
"But it's not specific, so anything bad that happens is a house rule!"
"So be it. Players abusing spells should expect bad things to happen!"
"But the text doesn't say what happens, so using it to punish players for using their spell is a dick move!"
"Well, that's what D&D is about. Countering your players' plans, and then countering their counter measures, and then countering their counter counter measures...."
Blah blah blah.
Personally, I just ban the dam spell and all spells like it. Their sole purpose seems to be making my life as DM harder.
Not D&D 4e. But Germans made 4e (and every other e) of DSA. And that's just horrible. But the game was off to a bad start: The guy who first committed the German D&D translation made his own RPG shortly after.I'm running my first Pathfinder campain for almost 2 years now and i love the way Paizo "saved" d&d from the worst incarnation of the game EVER (E.I. 4th ed.)!Why the hate? Germany didn't make 4e.
(Joking, joking!)
What's DSA?
What's DSA?
It's a German fantasy RPG, "Das Schwarze Auge".
Do you know that there was also a Dutch version of Das Schwarze Auge? The module titles were so badly translated they always made me laugh.
Do you know that there was also a Dutch version of Das Schwarze Auge? The module titles were so badly translated they always made me laugh.
That's cool. The original stuff made me wince.
There was also an English version. Dark Eye. I guess The Black Eye would have sounded too stupid and for once they caught on :D
Hm, okay. What's so wince-worthy about DSA?
|
When you know you're outdated? When you start a thread like this.
I'm running my first Pathfinder campain for almost 2 years now and i love the way Paizo "saved" d&d from the worst incarnation of the game EVER (E.I. 4th ed.)!Haha, ain't that the truth.
The irony, of course, is that running his game in 4th Edition would probably solve the very problem he's coming here to complain about.
Heh, I had actually thought the same thing myself. The humor was not lost on me.
Heh, I had actually thought the same thing myself. The humor was not lost on me.When you know you're outdated? When you start a thread like this.
I'm running my first Pathfinder campain for almost 2 years now and i love the way Paizo "saved" d&d from the worst incarnation of the game EVER (E.I. 4th ed.)!Haha, ain't that the truth.
The irony, of course, is that running his game in 4th Edition would probably solve the very problem he's coming here to complain about.
I try not to say it on these kind of threads, because the OP usually takes it badly, but it's surprising how often a lot of problems can be solved by playing a different edition or game.
sigh
I try not to say it on these kind of threads, because the OP usually takes it badly, but it's surprising how often a lot of problems can be solved by playing a different edition or game.
sigh
I hear you loud and clear.
Planned Obsolescence is built into our games too, man.
I try not to say it on these kind of threads, because the OP usually takes it badly, but it's surprising how often a lot of problems can be solved by playing a different edition or game.
sigh
I hear you loud and clear.
Planned Obsolescence is built into our games too, man.
I hear ya, but isn't that a good argument to not play a different edition? ('Cause that would probably involve buying new books.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To the OP:
It sounds more like DM fatigue and just a lack of variety in challenges than an actual problem of being "outdated". I know groups who play 1e to this day and have a blast, so if you don't want a new edition, try just changing things up and climb out of your comfort zone. A new campaign or reworking with some monster templates can do wonders for spicing things up.
To some of you guys:
Try your best to offer advice within the guidelines the person asking you presents, and if you can't help them in that way, then don't. But flat out offering exactly what they do not want, is a little jerkish. They explicitly stated they weren't interesting in a different edition however, and yet the different edition was sort of suggested anyway.
It pretty much reads like this:
"I need something to zing up my potato salad, but I'm allergic to pickles!"
"Hurr durr, try some pickles."
" >.< "
Try your best to offer advice within the guidelines the person asking you presents, and if you can't help them in that way, then don't. But flat out offering exactly what they do not want, is a little jerkish. They explicitly stated they weren't interesting in a different edition however, and yet the different edition was sort of suggested anyway.
It pretty much reads like this:
"I need something to zing up my potato salad, but I'm allergic to pickles!"
"Hurr durr, try some pickles."
" >.< "
No, it's really more like, "Man, pickles are the worst. By the way, I'm really in the mood for something briny, crunchy, flavored with dill, and perhaps involving a cucumber."
"Are you sure you hate pickles?"
I wasn't suggesting it so much as pointing out the irony of the OP (pointlessly) hating on a game and then complaining about a bunch of problems that the game he hated on specifically sets out to fix.
|
it's really more like, "Man, pickles are the worst. By the way, I'm really in the mood for something briny, crunchy, flavored with dill, and perhaps involving a cucumber."
"Are you sure you hate pickles?"
Taking the pickle analogy a bit further...
Perhaps this person does not like DILL pickles...
Not all pickles are flavored with dill...
Bread and Butter Pickle recipe
My point is, while 4e might be a better fit, it may just be the OP does not like the ingredients of the system...