| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So, my group and I recently had almost all of our characters die in our Kingmaker campaign, so we decided it might be fun to just continue on with brand new characters. Having been used to playing with each other, we figured we'd build our characters to be the most effective as a team, and utilize the much underused Teamwork feats.
The class preferences are: TWF rogue, THF fighter, wizard, caster-oriented cleric or oracle, and the last member undecided, leaning slightly towards an archery ranger or bard, though a Paladin for shared party smites or an Inquisitor or Cavalier for their Teamwork feat focus might not be too bad. The challenge is this: How best to build a party to utilize teamwork feats and strategies to their fullest? So far, I've had a few ideas.
TWF rogue dual wielding Keen kukri's with the Butterfly's Sting feat. The high number of attacks on a high-crit weapon almost guarantee a crit per full attack. Flank with a Greataxe or Scythe wielding THF fighter with Critical feats. Both would also have Paired Opportunists, Outflank, and Precise Strike, as well as Combat Reflexes, allowing them to use flank optimally and take full advantage of the crit-trading. Since crits themselves are a lesser part of rogue damage than sneak attack, and a THF fighter would have some hefty static bonuses, multiplied by an x4 crit weapon, the damage output would be absurd.
I'm not really sure how the casters would synergize, as the casting-oriented teamwork feats seem lackluster. If our 5th did go ranger, they could work out teamwork stuff with their animal companion, as well, giving us a third melee combatant to shred things.
As of now, we'd be 10th level, 25 point buy, open to any Pathfinder stuff. Standard wealth for our level (62,000)
Any other ideas?
If the THF is going the critical route he will NOT want a scythe, he'll want something that crits often like a Falchion or Elven Curved Blade. Other than a couple of the critical feats, I'd recommend Dazing Assault. Also, mobile fighter is hands down the best archetype.
Dump the Rogue in favor of an Archivist Bard who can disarm magical traps like a rogue but has spells and other cool abilities.
Rangers are good. Archery is really effing hot. If the wizard concentrates on battlefield control spells (level 11 and Repulsion is just around the corner!) sounds like a very solid party.
The fighter would be going with an x4 Crit weapon, because the rogue would be giving him free crits via Butterfly's Sting. A round of them in flanking would go: Rogue full attacks, getting 6d6 sneak attack per hit. With a 15-20 crit range on the kukri's, chances are there will be at least one crit. She forgoes the crit and gives it to the fighter instead. If there's more than one crit, it depends on the view of the Butterfly's Sting feat. If only one free crit is allowed, then the rogue keeps the crit for themselves. Because she crit and has Outflank, it provokes an AoO from the fighter, who hit with an autocrit. Because the fighter crit, the rogue gets 3 AoO's, one from the Opportunist talent, one from Outflank, one from Paired Opportunists. Chances are, another crit. Each one of those provokes an AoO from the fighter, until they're both out of AoO's for the turn. Then the fighter comes up and full attacks, likely finishing the mob off.
I'm tiring to think are those 3 AoOs valid? Normally it's one AoO per pervoking incident.
Reviews rules
*oof*
That is sick, dare I say broken. Word to the wise, don't get flank yourself because what's good for the player is good for the GM. I'm still not sure all 3 of those would create more then one AoO though.
Even if multiple AoOs weren't triggered off the same attack, every time the rogue crits, the fighter gets either a free x4 crit or an AoO. Every time the fighter hits, the rogue gets free hits. The DPR of Grim and Reaper would be absurd. The two of them are making sure each other can hit as often, and as hard, as they possible can. The essence of teamwork :)
So you want to have a team that can support the crap out of each other? Okay.
Cleric of Iomedae with Glory (Heroism) and War(Tactics) Domain
Bard
Archery Ranger (Guide Variant)
Houndmaster Order of the Dragon Cavalier. Be sure to take Practiced Tactician.
Wizard (Transmuter)
That's just pure buffing. You get heroism aura, Order of the Dragon buffs, teamwork feats, free initiative reroll, bonuses in terrains, plus normal bard, cleric and wizard buffs. Inquisitors are great an all but their teamwork feats only apply to themselves. They have very few group oriented things compared to above.
Butterfly Strike is absolutely ridiculous. My god. What book is it from?
Dotting this thread for later, too. SunsetPsychosis' example is so deliciously cheezy, but I'm hoping we see some more general advice.
|
Butterfly Sting : Faiths of Purity
Requires: Combat Expertise
Last spot
Half Elf Bard
Ancestral Arms: Bardiche 1D10 19-20X2(Reach,Brace)
DM alowed Fauchard 1D10 18-20X2 (Reach,Trip)
Str>Con>Cha>Int>Dex>Wis
Butterfly Sting: Grant a critical hit to the next ally who hits the creature with a melee attack. (Only one attack)
1A:Rogue confirm 1 critical passes it to the fighter.
1B:Rogue critical more then one time.
1C:Fighter Out Flank attack. Critical Hit.
1D:Rogue Out Flank attack.
2A:Fighter Automatically confirms the hit as critical.
2B:Rogue Out Flank attack. Critical Hit.
2C:Fighter Out Flank Attack.
Each critical hit is a new AoO. So Out Flank as is can chain. It hase not come up in play yet. I will probly house rule the out flank chain hits out. And I don't see any DM alowing it to work just becous it makes it so powerfull. Thats just me so it's a gran of salt.
Criticals certainly fuel the massive damage, but even in a round without crits, they're greatly boosting each other's number of attacks. Say, rogue full attacks, no crits. Fighter attacks, rogue uses opportunist for another hit. The Opportunist AoO means the fighter gets an AoO on top of his full attack. Depending on ruling, that AoO then provokes another AoO from the rogue, etc.
Even without Butterfly's Sting, it's still quite potent. The teamwork feats are extremely powerful if used right, but I never see anyone take them. Heck, removing Butterfly's Sting means the whole thing is just built out of the Core and APG. I'm surprised I've never heard mention of this particular combination before.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here is my attempt to stat out Grimm and Reaper
Grimm
Rogue 10, Swashbuckler Archetype (kukri proficiency)
Str 14
Dex 24
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 7
Feats:
1: Combat Expertise, Two Weapon Fighting, SA +1d6
2: Weapon Finesse (Finesse Rogue talent), Evasion
3: Butterfly's Sting, SA +2d6
4: Combat Reflexes (Combat trick), Uncanny Dodge
5: Paired Opportunists SA +3d6
6: Weapon Focus (kukri)
7: Precise Strike SA +4d6
8: Outflank (Combat trick), Improved Uncanny Dodge
9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting, SA +5d6
10: Opportunist talent, Piranha Strike (feat advanced rogue talent, human favored class bonus)
1400
Gear: +1 Keen Kukri x2, Belt of Dex +4, Cloak of Resistance +3, +2 Mithral chain shirt, +2 ring of protection, Amulet of Natural armor +1, Handy Haversack, eyes of the eagle
Attacks: +12/+12/+7/+7 1d4+7, 15-20/x2, 6d6 SA, 2d4+14 on crit
When flanking with Reaper: +16/+16/+11/+11 1d4+7 15-20/x2, 6d6 SA
Saves: +8/+17/+8, AC 26, HP 77
Reaper
Human Fighter 10, Two-Handed archetype.
Str 24
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 8
Feats:
1: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Scythe), Combat Reflexes, Shattering Strike
2: Outflank
3: Paired Opportunists, Overhand Chop
4: Weapon Specialization (Scythe)
5: Iron Will, Weapon Training
6: Precise Strike
7: Furious Focus, Backswing
8: Greater Weapon Focus (Scythe)
9: Critical Focus
10: Improved Critical (Scythe)
Gear: +1 Shocking Burst Scythe, Belt of Strength +4, Cloak of Resistance +3, +2 Full Plate, Gloves of Dueling, Amulet of Nat Armor +1, Ring of Prot +1, Handy Haversack, 1500g
Attacks: +24 2d4+25+1d6 electric/+16 2d4+39+1d6 electric 19-20/x4
When flanking with Grimm: +28 2d4+25+1d6 electric+1d6 SA/+20 2d4+39+1d6 electric+1d6 SA
Crit: 8d4+100+1d6 electric+2d10 electric. AoO +28 2d4+39+1d6 electric
AC 25, saves +12/+9/+9, HP 94
As you can see, I managed to avoid sacrificing much in the way of survivability. They're both still quite competent, even when not flanking. I need help crunching the DPR math against a single CR 10 enemy, a young red dragon in this case.
Dragon AC: 22, HP 115
Grimm will hit on a 6 plus for his first two, 11 plus on his second two. Average damage per hit is 27, for 108 damage a round at average damage if all attacks hit. 30% of the hits are crits, but we'll give those to Reaper.
Reaper will hit on anything but a 1 for either attack. Average damage per hit is 35, but Backswing makes average damage per round with two hits 84. 10% of his attacks are crits. An average crit hits for 132. An average AoO hits for 46 damage.
What's making number crunching difficult for me to math out is the odds of the AoO/crit triggering effects of the feats occurring in a given round, and how that averages out the DPR. Any help from the mathy sorts would help :)
hmmmm, I think there is one small flaw in the whole butterfly sting trick. Which I must say is pretty darn sick, if it works. Here's the rub, the feat states it is granted to the next ally and not to any ally. It seems the way it is written to be talking about order of initiative turns, so your heavy hitter with the X4 crit weapon would always have to be in the next order of ally initiative after the rogue.
Now one could possibly argue that the next ally could mean square but I don't think that works because then the description would say something like the closest ally. Besides the rogue would always need to go first before fighter.
I have always found however most GM's are perfectly willing to allow a player tactically lower their initiative roll in order so this might help you work it out, but this of course does put you at a disadvantage against the GM because other player (like casters) may need to drop their initiative order so that they don't receive the auto crit.
Prerequisite: Combat Expertise.
Benefit: When you confirm a critical hit against a creature, you can choose to forgo the effect of the critical hit and grant a critical hit to the next ally who hits the creature with a melee attack before the start of your next turn. Your attack only deals normal damage, and the next ally automatically confirms the hit as a critical.
However, it is a nice move and when it gets pulled off would produce sick numbers.
Note it specifically applies to melee attacks. The theoretical party I'm assembling would have the other members at range, so the archer firing arrows at the target wouldn't waste the free crit. And getting initiative closer is likely a matter of just having the rogue delay a bit, as he'd have the higher initiative. Swapping out Iron Will for Improved Initiative for the fighter would also help.
Note it specifically applies to melee attacks. The theoretical party I'm assembling would have the other members at range, so the archer firing arrows at the target wouldn't waste the free crit. And getting initiative closer is likely a matter of just having the rogue delay a bit, as he'd have the higher initiative. Swapping out Iron Will for Improved Initiative for the fighter would also help.
Point taken and a good one at that. Still there will have to be some timing so that plan is not fool proof.
On a separate note having your fighter with the X4 crit weapon be the subject of a enlarge person spell might not be a bad idea because not only does this increase strength but it also bumps up the weapon damage. If you are going with a X4 weapon then a scythe might not be a bad direction because that scythe enlarged would be doing 2d6 plus 1 1/2 times strength bonus for doing damage because it is a two handed weapon. The thing is with multiplier damage it is good to have weapons that have multiple dice because this increases the odds of higher damage. So with this enlarged weapon you would crit for 8d6 points of damage with the assist from the butterfly sting. The scythe can also trip I found out the hard way to be quite effective and irritating as hell pretty much forcing a target to fight on their backs, if they have one.
However, if you really just want to bring on the pain then just have the fighter go with a Great Axe which is a X3 Weapon. When it crits with the assist from the butterfly sting then the weapon damage will be 3d12 points of damage at normal size. However, the next step up from 1d12 is 3d6 so if you "enlarge person" the fighter then the crit damage would be 9d6 points including his two handed strength bonus.
You actually get the same results from a Greatsword as well if you work the numbers that way.
If you can find a feat for your warrior to use oversized weapons then you will being doing some really nasty stuff, however be warned about this because in tight corners you may not be able to swing the weapon.
The big thing about the x4 crit weapon isn't the dice, it's the multiplication of static bonuses. The +25 static damage per swing, multiplied by 4, plus the extra 2d10 electric damage from shocking burst add up to a lot more than just slightly higher dice. That's why falchion fighters are popular, too. The dice is just icing on the fat damage cake.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can use it or not. Few things I noticed.
Grimm
Rogue 10, Swashbuckler Archetype (kukri proficiency)
6: Outflank (Combat trick)(BAB4 required)
Gear: +1 Keen Kukri x2, Belt of Dex +4, Cloak of Resistance +3, +2 Mithral chain shirt, +2 ring of protection, Amulet of Natural armor +1, Handy Haversack, eyes of the eagle
Attacks: +14/+14/+9/+9 (BAB7+7DexMod+1WF+1Weapon=16-2TWF=14)
1d4+3(+2StrMod+1Weapon)1D4+1(+1StrMod+1Weapon)
15-20/x2, Sneak Attack 5D6 Flanking +1D6
Attacks PS: 12/12/7/7 (-2 to hit +4 damage main hand +2 damage off hand)
1D4+4/1D4+4 15-20X2
I recomend Powerful Sneak and Deadly Sneak. They incresses the damage of sneak attack in a very good way.
Sneak Attack 5D6 5-35 Avg. 17.5 or 3.5 per dice rolled.
Sneak Attack with PS & DS 5D6 15-35 Avg. 20 or 4 per dice rolled
Sneak Attack 10D6 10-60 Avg. 35
Sneak Attack with PS & DS 10D6 30-60 Avg. 40
Did this with 25 Point buy looks like what your using. I like Str builds over finesses. Mainly after playing way to meny high level games DR stinks.
Str 22 (Base16+2Human+2Level+4Item)
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 7
Feats:
1: Combat Expertise, Two Weapon Fighting, SA +1d6
2: Weapon Focus (Weapon Traning), Evasion
3: Butterfly's Sting, SA +2d6
4: Combat Reflexes (Combat trick), Uncanny Dodge
5: Double Slice SA +3d6
6: Outflank (Combat trick)
7: Precise Strike, SA +4d6
8: Powerful Sneak , Improved Uncanny Dodge
9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting, SA +5d6
10: Opportunist talent, Deadly Sneak advanced rogue talent, human favored class bonus
Changed the Keen Kukri to +2. Unless this is a one shot you will pick up improved critical at level 11. You then need to rebuy equipment or take a difrent feat. I take the feat every time. Keen is very nice at lower levels of play at this point it will just cost you alot of gold to have it for one level.
Gear: +2 Kukri x2, Belt of Str +4, Cloak of Resistance +3, +2 Mithral chain shirt, +2 ring of protection, Amulet of Natural armor +1, Handy Haversack, eyes of the eagle
Attacks 14/14/8/8 (BAB7+6StrMod+1WF+2Weapon=16-2TWF=14)
Damage 1D4+8 (6StrMod+2Weapon)
5-20X2 Sneak Attack 5D6 Flanking +1D6
Reaper
Human Fighter 10, Two-Handed archetype.
Str 24
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 8
Feats: Moved team work feats to get them at the same level as rogue.
1: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Scythe), Combat Reflexes, Shattering Strike
2: Shattering Strike Improved Initiative
3: Furious Focus, Overhand Chop
4: Weapon Specialization (Scythe)
5: Paired Opportunists, Weapon Training (replace PO with Improved Init. if rogue str build)
6: Outflank
7: Percise Strike, Backswing
8: Greater Weapon Focus (Scythe)
9: Improved Critical (Scythe)
10: Critical Focus
Gear: +1 Shocking Burst Scythe, Belt of Strength +4, Cloak of Resistance +3, +2 Full Plate, Gloves of Dueling, Amulet of Nat Armor +1, Ring of Prot +1, Handy Haversack, 1500g
Attacks 22/17 (BAB10+7StrMod+2GWF+2WT+1Weapon=22)
Damage Normal 2D4+15+1d6 electric(10StrMod+2WS+2WT+1Weapon=15)
Over Hand Chop / Back Swing Damage 2D4+19+1D6electric
19-20X4 +3D10 electric
Attacks with power attack 19/14 (-3to hit +9Damage)
Damage Normal 2D4+24+1D6electric
OHC / BS Damage 2D4+28+1D6electric
19-20X4 +3D10 electric
Flanking +1D6 precision damage
I went the Dexterity focus on Grimm to qualify for the Two-Weapon Fighting feats and to maximize the number of AoO's through Combat Reflexes. A strength build would spread my stats too thin for a slight increase in the rogues DPS. Personal DPS isn't as important in this duo as is their synergy too work together.
I considered Powerful Sneak, but the build is just too feat-hungry, which is why I had to take the Swashbuckler archetype, just to get kukri proficiency and the ability to use Combat Trick twice.
I went with the Keen kukri's because at this level the high amount of critting fuels the combo, but I lack the BAB for Improved Critical. Of course, our GM has a house rule to let us "disenchant" unwanted magical items for 1/3 market price, letting us use the materials to make new items, and we generally have access to significantly higher wealth than is normal for our character levels.
Good catch on the order of feats, I admit I was mostly looking for the feats I needed building the character at 10 more than the correct order to take them in.
Team work Train the more peolpe that jump on the better. In our king make we had 5 (3 PC and 2 PET) folks with Presie Strike and 4 with Outflank. It tore up alot of stuff.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but doesn't Paired Opportunist require you to be adjacent to your ally? I don't see how you can be adjacent and flanking at the same time.
You have to be adjacent for the +4 to hit, but the being able to both make an AoO only requires that you both threaten the target.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but doesn't Paired Opportunist require you to be adjacent to your ally? I don't see how you can be adjacent and flanking at the same time.
Use the Gang Up feat.