Can a merfolk take a 5-foot step while on land, even though their base speed is 5?
Can a merfolk take a 5-foot step while on land, even though their base speed is 5?
I think that by the rules (unless there is a rule I am not aware of), he could.
The way I picture it, the 5 foot step represents something akin to "quantum uncertainty" in physics. We as GMs and Players are not tracking the exact location of a character, but only know that the character is, at any moment, somewhere within the five foot box we've established. The character could be right at the edge of the box, or at the center.
So a five foot step, as I see it, is a character who really was right at the edge of the square just moving a little bit and now is in an adjacent square.
So a merfolk also could be right at the edge of a square and just has to wiggle a little bit to be in the next square, assuming that the next square is not occupied or difficult terrain, etc.
But we'll see if anybody says that I am wrong.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
I guess I am wrong.
That's why, in my own games, I have a table rule that anybody who wants to use a rule is responsible for looking up the rule in the rulebook.
To merfolk: No five foot step for you!
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.I guess I am wrong.
That's why, in my own games, I have a table rule that anybody who wants to use a rule is responsible for looking up the rule in the rulebook.
To merfolk: No five foot step for you!
I knew the answer was no, but I knew that someone would ask for a link or quotation so I just went there first instead of going through the debate process.
I have a similar rule at my table.
Can a merfolk take a 5-foot step while on land, even though their base speed is 5?No... essentially land is difficult terrain for them.
If it was, it would take a full round action to move 5 feet, would it not?
This thread brings to mind another question. Can a creature with a swim, burrow, fly, or climb speed make a 5-foot-step while using one of those forms of movement?
I've oft wondered that myself, along with whether or not creatures with such speeds can take the run action while using those forms of movement.
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This thread brings to mind another question. Can a creature with a swim, burrow, fly, or climb speed make a 5-foot-step while using one of those forms of movement?
Of course they can. In the case of merfolk their swim speed is 50ft. They should definitely be able to take a 5ft step in water. Having a movement speed >10 for something means they can 5ft step while doing it.
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Here is my two cents,
Land speed (move freely) - 5ft step allowed
Swim Speed (Does not require check) - 5ft step allowed
Climb speed (Requires Climb check - climb check is a move action) - 5ft not allowed
Fly Speed (Requires Fly check to move less than 10ft - check is a free action) - 5ft step allowed with successful check.
Burrow Speed (Does not require check) - 5ft step allowed
Nope, but that's already been covered. Though a high enough level merfolk monk, a merfolk barbarian, a merfolk "anything with the travel domain", or just simply a merfolk with the fleet feat would be able to I believe.
This thread brings to mind another question. Can a creature with a swim, burrow, fly, or climb speed make a 5-foot-step while using one of those forms of movement?
Yep. I believe the only exception is that you can't take a 5-foot step straight up while flying. That rule might possibly apply to swimming as well, not sure.
I have a merfolk sorcerer who simply flies around in a giant water bowl (a reflavored cauldron of flying).
I have a merfolk sorcerer who simply flies around in a giant water bowl (a reflavored cauldron of flying).
I am terrified of your flying fishbowl.
Can you take a 5' foot step underwater or swimming? I mean if you are a normal land species without a swim speed.
No. Rules state you cannot 5-foot step if you do not have a listed speed for the particular form of movement.
I have a merfolk question too, since the OP question seems answered:
As merfolk are described to have fishtails instead of legs, can they wear shoes?
I mean if you play one, movement is a serious issue.
Boots of striding and springing are a nice thing then possibly.
Ironically, I have found nowhere in the rules that state merfolk do not mechanically have feet slots.
a humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear consisting of one item from each of the following groups, keyed to which slot on the body the item is worn.
From a pure commonsense standpoint, I would say they can't wear boots. Though, I could see a variant "fin" slot that allows them to take advantage of "boot" themed items.
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As Malfus said, common sense says they shouldn't be able to, but by RAW I believe they can in fact wear boots.
I think the general ruling is that magic items adjust themselves to fit the wearer (thus a small creature can use the magic boots from a large creature). So magic boots probably adjust into some sort of magic fin covers, or magic flippers.
Hmm... this means, if I create a merfolk char, then dip into Barbarian or Cleric (with Travel), my newfound 15' base land speed would allow me to five-foot-step?
Frankly, I'd slap the speed increase on the default movement method (which isn't land movement for merfolk)... but the Barb fast movement explicitely states land speed.
This is pretty clear cut in the RAW. Humanoid-shaped creatures use the magic item slots represented in core. Merfolk don't have boot slots since they aren't humanoid-shaped creatures. They are Humanoids (as in the creature type), but not humanoids (in the traditional sense). As such they don't have a place for magical footwear.
Note that the magic item slot rules use the term "humanoid-shaped creatures," NOT "Humanoid."
Things are far less confusing when you don't have people misquoting the rules.
Merfolk Characters seem nice for a pirate campaign.
Take a character with enchantment, like Lotus Geisha bard, swim up to the enemy ship and enchant the crew while your fellows sneak up behind^^
I like how you put it:This is pretty clear cut in the RAW. Humanoid-shaped creatures use the magic item slots represented in core. Merfolk don't have boot slots since they aren't humanoid-shaped creatures. They are Humanoids (as in the creature type), but not humanoids (in the traditional sense). As such they don't have a place for magical footwear.
Note that the magic item slot rules use the term "humanoid-shaped creatures," NOT "Humanoid."
Things are far less confusing when you don't have people misquoting the rules.
but not humanoids (in the traditional sense). As such they don't have a place for magical footwear.
Now, if you would point out where it says that they do not, in fact, have feet slots, I will gladly concede.
I like how you put it:This is pretty clear cut in the RAW. Humanoid-shaped creatures use the magic item slots represented in core. Merfolk don't have boot slots since they aren't humanoid-shaped creatures. They are Humanoids (as in the creature type), but not humanoids (in the traditional sense). As such they don't have a place for magical footwear.
Note that the magic item slot rules use the term "humanoid-shaped creatures," NOT "Humanoid."
Things are far less confusing when you don't have people misquoting the rules.
but not humanoids (in the traditional sense). As such they don't have a place for magical footwear.Now, if you would point out where it says that they do not, in fact, have feet slots, I will gladly concede.
Gladly.
Many magic items need to be donned by a character who wants to employ them or benefit from their abilities. It's possible for a creature with a humanoid-shaped body to wear as many as 15 magic items at the same time. However, each of those items must be worn on (or over) a particular part of the body, known as a “slot.”
A humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear consisting of one item from each of the following groups, keyed to which slot on the body the item is worn.[/spoiler]
If you continue reading, it shows a list of all the body slots, and which part of the body they correspond to.
The rules are VERY clear: If you do not have a humanoid-shaped body, you do not have the corresponding magic item slots.
I like how you put it:This is pretty clear cut in the RAW. Humanoid-shaped creatures use the magic item slots represented in core. Merfolk don't have boot slots since they aren't humanoid-shaped creatures. They are Humanoids (as in the creature type), but not humanoids (in the traditional sense). As such they don't have a place for magical footwear.
Note that the magic item slot rules use the term "humanoid-shaped creatures," NOT "Humanoid."
Things are far less confusing when you don't have people misquoting the rules.
but not humanoids (in the traditional sense). As such they don't have a place for magical footwear.Now, if you would point out where it says that they do not, in fact, have feet slots, I will gladly concede.Gladly.
Many magic items need to be donned by a character who wants to employ them or benefit from their abilities. It's possible for a creature with a humanoid-shaped body to wear as many as 15 magic items at the same time. However, each of those items must be worn on (or over) a particular part of the body, known as a “slot.”
A humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear consisting of one item from each of the following groups, keyed to which slot on the body the item is worn.[/spoiler]
If you continue reading, it shows a list of all the body slots, and which part of the body they correspond to.
The rules are VERY clear: If you do not have a humanoid-shaped body, you do not have the corresponding magic item slots.
I like your exposition, but you have said nothing about merfolk and their feet.
Merfolk have a fish tail. Therefore they do not have a shoes slot, because they don´t have feet.
Maybe there should be another merfolk player race, much like Arielle, with the change shape ability like Kitsune.
They are not going to list every monster, and whether or not it has a feet slot or other slots. That sentence RD quoted was written to cover such things. The top part of the body is humanoid shaped, but the lower-half is not. There is not way mermaid is putting boots on. If you can't wear the boots you don't get the benefits. Could a GM make a device that fits the mermaid? Sure but a mermaid has feet just like an ooze does. The GM can also make a rule that the item refits itself so that is wearable by a mermaid.
The only question that really needs to be answered is "does the mermaid have a completely humanoid shaped body". 99% of most people would say no. You then go on to list the answer as to why not. You then go on to say can this altered body part really wear _______.
Merfolk have a fish tail. Therefore they do not have a shoes slot, because they don´t have feet.
Maybe there should be another merfolk player race, much like Arielle, with the change shape ability like Kitsune.
I believe if you somehow benefited from alter-self, the temporary amount of time that you could put on boots would allow you to wear them, and then have them meld into your original form when you switch back, effectively giving you benefits of the boots forever (unless you actually have to activate them, then they are useless to you :P).
Shameless plug to vote for my RPG Superstar organization involving merfolk.
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz55hg
They are not going to list every monster, and whether or not it has a feet slot or other slots. That sentence RD quoted was written to cover such things. The top part of the body is humanoid shaped, but the lower-half is not. There is not way mermaid is putting boots on. If you can't wear the boots you don't get the benefits. Could a GM make a device that fits the mermaid? Sure but a mermaid has feet just like an ooze does. The GM can also make a rule that the item refits itself so that is wearable by a mermaid.
The only question that really needs to be answered is "does the mermaid have a completely humanoid shaped body". 99% of most people would say no. You then go on to list the answer as to why not. You then go on to say can this altered body part really wear _______.
I am not advocating a list of every monster and their parts. I was merely pointing out that such a list does not exist and I could not explain from a purely RAW standpoint how merfolk don't have feet slots in particular. After all, the words they use are "humanoid-shaped," and humanoid is a term used to describe a type of creature, one of which a merfolk. A merfolk is a humanoid, and is therefore shaped like one, namely, it is shaped just like a merfolk. I in no way make the claim that they have feet, or that the rules advocate that they should, I just want it make it clear that they aren't specifically prohibited by any rules.
I think the intent is clear. If you have the bodyslot(you can reasonably wear the item) you can use it. If not then you can't. Now if you are saying merfolk themselves are not called out specifically then I agree with you.
As for the polymorph(alter spell) idea
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body.
When you go back to merfolk(humanoid) form the gear is not melding into your body because it is not one of the ones listed above so that does not work by RAW or RAI. I was almost worried before I looked it up though.
I agree, the intent is very clear. I just can't cite a rule that says merfolk (or other oddly shaped humanoids)don't have feet (not without redefining humanoid).
As to polymorph:
Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
I would say adding feet is unlike your normal form, therefore the effects of the spell (going on or off) should cause your gear to either resize or meld. Since you have no feet, I say they should meld :P
EDIT: I love it when GM discretion is mentioned in RAW. Its like saying "Hey! We didn't say merfolk don't have feet, but that's up to your GM!"
Humanoid (the word, not the type) does not need to be defined. It's meaning is understood in the English language. It means that something is human-like in appearance, specifically having a head, two arms, and two legs. This is clearly what they mean when referring to magic item slots.
Humanoid (the type, not the word) is much more limited and IS clearly defined within the rules. This is clearly not what they are referring to when talking about magic-item slots.
To confuse the two in this matter is to be willfully obtuse.
Well well.
I agree that merfolk cannot wear shoes because of their fishfins.
Their descriptions says is exclusively, why i asked in first place.
However, you can use a greater hat of disguise later (1200gp if i remember right), take a form with feat, put on shoes, walk on land.
If you switch back, just put the shoes away, you dont need them in water.
I think there are no shoes you would effectively benefit from under water, since you swim there. Even boots of springing and striding are questionable underwater. More so flying or whatever.
Humanoid (the word, not the type) does not need to be defined. It's meaning is understood in the English language. It means that something is human-like in appearance, specifically having a head, two arms, and two legs.
Humanoid (the type, not the word) is much more limited and IS clearly defined within the rules.
To confuse the two in this matter is to be willfully obtuse.
Note that humanoid means "human-shaped". Also note that the wording in the rules is "humanoid-shaped". I could easily argue that "human-shaped-shaped" is entirely redundant and that "humanoid-type-shaped" is the version that makes grammatical sense. Giving terms definite meanings in a game has consequences, determining rules based on approximate language usage is one of those.
That said, I already indicated that the intent is clear, but I could not in good conscious declare that RAW had the answer, when the meaning of the words are obfuscated by tragic incidental terms.
Also, I prefer stubborn.
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I like you, Malfus. You remind me of me in some respects.
Is that the ironic "me?" :P
I believe if you somehow benefited from alter-self, the temporary amount of time that you could put on boots would allow you to wear them, and then have them meld into your original form when you switch back, effectively giving you benefits of the boots forever (unless you actually have to activate them, then they are useless to you :P).Merfolk have a fish tail. Therefore they do not have a shoes slot, because they don´t have feet.
Maybe there should be another merfolk player race, much like Arielle, with the change shape ability like Kitsune.
I was under the assumption that the melding of equipment only occurred when a polymorph spell took effect not when the effect ended.
If you polymorphed a tuna fish into a human and dressed them in full plate, the full plate would not meld into the tuna fish once the spell ended, nor would boots.
As to whether a merfolk has a boot slot is covered in the rules, that entirely depends upon whether a merfolk is "a creature with a humandoid-shaped body". That is the only shaped body covered in the Core Rulebook. Any other shaped body is not covered and left to the GM.
I do not believe a merfolk is a creature with a humandoid-shaped body so the body slots of a merfolk are not addressed one way or another by the rules except by the implication that they would be different than those stated for a creature with a humandoid-shaped body. If by implication a merfolk's body slots are different then the most likely difference would be in the Feet slot. That is only implied though and not explicitly stated. It is possible there are other body types that have the exact same slots as a creature with a humandoid-shaped body.
I believe if you somehow benefited from alter-self, the temporary amount of time that you could put on boots would allow you to wear them, and then have them meld into your original form when you switch back, effectively giving you benefits of the boots forever (unless you actually have to activate them, then they are useless to you :P).Merfolk have a fish tail. Therefore they do not have a shoes slot, because they don´t have feet.
Maybe there should be another merfolk player race, much like Arielle, with the change shape ability like Kitsune.
I was under the assumption that the melding of equipment only occurred when a polymorph spell took effect not when the effect ended.
If you polymorphed a tuna fish into a human and dressed them in full plate, the full plate would not meld into the tuna fish once the spell ended, nor would boots.
As to whether a merfolk has a boot slot is covered in the rules, that entirely depends upon whether a merfolk is "a creature with a humandoid-shaped body". That is the only shaped body covered in the Core Rulebook. Any other shaped body is not covered and left to the GM.
I do not believe a merfolk is a creature with a humandoid-shaped body so the body slots of a merfolk are not addressed one way or another by the rules except by the implication that they would be different than those stated for a creature with a humandoid-shaped body. If by implication a merfolk's body slots are different then the most likely difference would be in the Feet slot. That is only implied though and not explicitly stated. It is possible there are other body types that have the exact same slots as a creature with a humandoid-shaped body.
^this
Also, the greater hat of disguise would allow you to polymorph into a merfolk, thus using a polymorph spell to cause the meld. What would happen if you went to your regular merfolk form?
I believe if you somehow benefited from alter-self, the temporary amount of time that you could put on boots would allow you to wear them, and then have them meld into your original form when you switch back, effectively giving you benefits of the boots forever (unless you actually have to activate them, then they are useless to you :P).Merfolk have a fish tail. Therefore they do not have a shoes slot, because they don´t have feet.
Maybe there should be another merfolk player race, much like Arielle, with the change shape ability like Kitsune.
I was under the assumption that the melding of equipment only occurred when a polymorph spell took effect not when the effect ended.
If you polymorphed a tuna fish into a human and dressed them in full plate, the full plate would not meld into the tuna fish once the spell ended, nor would boots.
As to whether a merfolk has a boot slot is covered in the rules, that entirely depends upon whether a merfolk is "a creature with a humandoid-shaped body". That is the only shaped body covered in the Core Rulebook. Any other shaped body is not covered and left to the GM.
I do not believe a merfolk is a creature with a humandoid-shaped body so the body slots of a merfolk are not addressed one way or another by the rules except by the implication that they would be different than those stated for a creature with a humandoid-shaped body. If by implication a merfolk's body slots are different then the most likely difference would be in the Feet slot. That is only implied though and not explicitly stated. It is possible there are other body types that have the exact same slots as a creature with a humandoid-shaped body.
^this
Also, the greater hat of disguise would allow you to polymorph into a merfolk, thus using a polymorph spell to cause the meld. What would happen if you went to your regular merfolk form?
I am not sure I understand the question.
But if a human wears magic boots then polymorphs into a merfolk the boots are not melding into your body because you are not changing into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type.
So then since the boots did not meld into your form, the boots resize to match your new size. Then promptly fall to the ground if a merfolk does not have a feet slot to equip them as boots are required to be equipped in the feet slot.
Whether merfolk have feet slots is not covered in the rules and only implied by its non-inclusion in the section covering "Magic Items on the Body" which implies their body slots are different than the ones listed.
Mh, Malfus seems to be a worshipper of the golden apple.
There is a big difference in this game between human shaped and humanoid shaped. A human has a head, two arms with hands and two legs with feet.
Humanoid shaped can mean much more. There can be tentacles or claws or beaks or wings or fishtails.
Also polymorphing back doesnt melt equipment, that is quite clear.
I just realized that:
Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion).
probably refers to casting ability in particular. I was under the impression that it referred to gear melding as well... My mistake. I retract my opinion on gear-melding.
PS. I still will use my old interpretation in games though, makes more sense that way :P
I agree, and I always assumed that it wasn't the polymorph that did the melding, that it was the nature of the magic items.Mh, Malfus seems to be a worshipper of the golden apple.
There is a big difference in this game between human shaped and humanoid shaped. A human has a head, two arms with hands and two legs with feet.
Humanoid shaped can mean much more. There can be tentacles or claws or beaks or wings or fishtails.Also polymorphing back doesnt melt equipment, that is quite clear.
When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn't be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer.
I always applied that last line to melding as well.
Mh, Malfus seems to be a worshipper of the golden apple.
There is a big difference in this game between human shaped and humanoid shaped. A human has a head, two arms with hands and two legs with feet.
Humanoid shaped can mean much more. There can be tentacles or claws or beaks or wings or fishtails.Also polymorphing back doesnt melt equipment, that is quite clear.
I would disagree that humanoid-shaped can mean fishtails and tentacles.
Now their is a distinct difference between humanoid and humanoid-shaped in the rules.
Humanoid generally means of the creature type Humanoid. I believe the designers purposely did not use the term Humaniod in the section on 'Magic Items on the Body' as that has specific meaning in the game of a specific creature type with all creatures falling into a list of predefined types as defined in the Bestiary.
While a 'humanoid-shaped body' refers to the more general language terms of a creature that is shaped like a human. I would argue legs are a crucial defining element of a humanoid-shaped body.
Merfolk no more have a humanoid-shaped body than a drider. Neither are humanoid-shaped bodies.
It might sound counter-intuitive but from a game rule stand point all humanoid type creatures do not have humanoid-shaped bodies.
While a 'humanoid-shaped body' refers to the more general language terms of a creature that is shaped like a human. I would argue legs are a crucial defining element of a humanoid-shaped body.
Actually, a more literal interpretation would put it at a creature that is shaped similarly to one that is shaped like a human. Thus "human-shaped-shaped"