Lately, I've been thinking about the crossbowman archetype in the APG, but it's just not what I want. I reread some of the abilities and they only add dex to damage on a readied action. I understand that, you don't want to outshine the bow because you need two stats to hit and do damage. But will there be any crossbow love in UM?
I for one have been wanting to try out a crossbowman, but not the Archetype in the APG. The problem is damage. 1d10+magic bonuses are basically all you get unless you're a fighter with WS and GWS. Not much to go on there. Anybody else want some crossbow love?
:edit: whoops I put UM in the title. thanks for catching that.
Ultimate Magic is not for physical combat. I think you want Ultimate Combat.
The problem is damage. 1d10+magic bonuses are basically all you get unless you're a fighter with WS and GWS. Not much to go on there. Anybody else want some crossbow love?
1d10 + magic bonuses + 12 with Deadly Aim. The Crossbow Sniper feat (published in PHB II) also allows you to add half your Dexterity bonus to damage on all attacks you make with a crossbow. (The latter is not worth the feat expenditure, in my opinion.)
Lately, I've been thinking about the crossbowman archetype in the APG, but it's just not what I want. I reread some of the abilities and they only add dex to damage on a readied action. I understand that, you don't want to outshine the bow because you need two stats to hit and do damage. But will there be any crossbow love in UM?
I for one have been wanting to try out a crossbowman, but not the Archetype in the APG. The problem is damage. 1d10+magic bonuses are basically all you get unless you're a fighter with WS and GWS. Not much to go on there. Anybody else want some crossbow love?
:edit: whoops I put UM in the title. thanks for catching that.
The problem with the APG crossbowman was that it was balanced with a standard fighter using his fighter feats and abilities with a substandard weapon, rather than doing anything to make the substandard weapon effective.
The problem with the APG crossbowman was that it was balanced with a standard fighter using his fighter feats and abilities with a substandard weapon, rather than doing anything to make the substandard weapon effective.
It can be some use if you play high level ( I know most people don't, but I do). The greater threat synergyze nicely with critical feats + capstone if you use weapon cords and hand crossbows.
When not doing that, just snipe with the double crossbow (using igreater invisibility too, and other buffs, items and tricks), and Deadly Stroke.
Is not powerful, but is not at the level of the single Handed fighter. For sure, if you expect an archer with a crossbow you will be disappointed.
Which is not so bad, but depends from HOW MUCH is lower iin DPR. A poster recently nicely posted a suggestion for crossbow: change the deadly aim gain to "-1/+2" to "-1/+3". IMHO fits and is a nice little change.
It can be some use if you play high level
It looks like a lot of damage, until you compare it to what everyone else does at high level.
It can be some use if you play high level
It looks like a lot of damage, until you compare it to what everyone else does at high level.
No need for annoying sarcasm. :)
Again, is not for "pun pun pun". And If I pointed out a partial fix, it means I'm not satisfied with crossbow apperently right now. BTW, I am not satisfied by the feat tax associated either.
I just pointed out that with a non "DPR race" game the template CAN be of some use. Just that.
Try to be be less dismissive, PLEASE.
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The Bullseye Shot Feat from Faiths of Purity (page 24) looks like it'd work nicely with the APG Crossbowman archetype: move action to 'steady the shot' + standard action to 'ready the shot' (then just fire anyway). A one-level dip into the Sniper Rogue archetype is probably a solid idea too, just to get the halved ranged penalties...
... The main issue with a crossbowman type character tends to be that his combat style doesn't play well with the up close and personal 'skirmish' style combat which most games end up being about - if for no other reason than you want to keep all the action confined to a table-sized battlemat. In a less 'traditional' style of game play such a character could be great (after all, killing the bad guys with little chance of them killing you back has its advantages...). In the right situations such a character could play the 'guardian sniper' role - getting to a nice vantage point somewhere above the battlefield, and helping out his skirmishing buddies by sniping the bad guys... it's just doubtful how many such situations will crop up in most campaigns.
It can be some use if you play high level
It looks like a lot of damage, until you compare it to what everyone else does at high level.
No need for annoying sarcasm. :)
Again, is not for "pun pun pun". And If I pointed out a partial fix, it means I'm not satisfied with crossbow apperently right now. BTW, I am not satisfied by the feat tax associated either.
I just pointed out that with a non "DPR race" game the template CAN be of some use. Just that.
Try to be be less dismissive, PLEASE.
But just how much worse is a crossbowman compared to an archer, DPR wise? My math-fu is terrible.
@Enchanter Tom, why do you think it's not a good feat investment? Especially for a class that can totally afford it.
The main issue with a crossbowman type character tends to be that his combat style doesn't play well with the up close and personal 'skirmish' style combat which most games end up being about - if for no other reason than you want to keep all the action confined to a table-sized battlemat. In a less 'traditional' style of game play such a character could be great (after all, killing the bad guys with little chance of them killing you back has its advantages...)
No less than an archer, and yet you see them in play all the time. I do agree with Kaiyanwang about how the crossbows getting +3 from deadly aim. It would make it a little bit better for crossbowmen.
The other thing is, I hate sniping in PF, or any other d20 game for that matter, especially with a weapon like the double crossbow because when you can't snipe you can't even take full attacks with it. Crossbow Mastery is specified in the weapon description that it only makes it a move action to reload, not a free.
@Enchanter Tom, why do you think it's not a good feat investment? Especially for a class that can totally afford it.
It's only 4-5 damage more per shot endgame. I don't see it being worth it unless you're a fighter.
No less than an archer, and yet you see them in play all the time. I do agree with Kaiyanwang about how the crossbows getting +3 from deadly aim.
Is not an idea of mine - is another poster's.
I like it because is balanced and flavour wise it fits.
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No less than an archer, and yet you see them in play all the time...
There's a big game difference between a crossbowman build and an archer build. The former is built around few, powerful, shots taken at as long range as possible, making him a sniper. The latter is built around doing full iterative attacks each and every round (hence the whole DRP-machine thing), and is much more suited to skirmish-style play.
Sure you can drop a bunch of Feats to try to build your crossbowman as an archer instead, but you'd still have been better off, mechanics-wise, just being an archer in the first place.
No less than an archer, and yet you see them in play all the time...There's a big game difference between a crossbowman build and an archer build. The former is built around few, powerful, shots taken at as long range as possible, making him a sniper. The latter is built around doing full iterative attacks each and every round (hence the whole DRP-machine thing), and is much more suited to skirmish-style play.
Sure you can drop a bunch of Feats to try to build your crossbowman as an archer instead, but you'd still have been better off, mechanics-wise, just being an archer in the first place.
But my issue with all that is that sniping in PF doesn't really work unless you're a rogue or have access to some kind of higher precision damage. past level 5, a magic crossbow with deadly aim firing once per round just won't cut it unless you've got sneak attack or something like it; and unless you have a reliable source of greater invisibility, you may only be able to get precision damage once per combat
at level 12, a double crossbow deadly stroke (vs flat footed) is 80-ish damage + constitution bleed.
at level 20, assuming a +5 weapon and +12 dex modifier, is 160-ish, 240-ish critical.
Nothing impressive, but if the party is "not-conventional" in the same way one could create around these surprise attacks some strategies.
at level 12, a double crossbow deadly stroke (vs flat footed) is 80-ish damage + constitution bleed.
at level 20, assuming a +5 weapon and +12 dex modifier, is 160-ish, 240-ish critical.
Nothing impressive, but if the party is "not-conventional" in the same way one could create around these surprise attacks some strategies.
160-ish is nice per shot, but if you can't reliably get that off, what's the point? Sure if your party isn't "conventional" it might work, but in a "conventional" party, chances are you probably won't get that every round.
how many round you need? 1 + 1 surprise could be enough vs 1 enemy.
If there are more, is more difficult. Again, no intention to discuss archery superiority.
how many round you need? 1 + 1 surprise could be enough.
Depends on the encounter. Surprise may be all we need if we can kill a creature per standard action, but if we're facing more than 4 creatures, we'll need that extra round. If we're facing more than that, combat will go on longer.
Waiting for UC ;)