What's wrong with an Arcane Trickster?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

1 to 50 of 127 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

Um what's wrong with this PrC? It's not the world greatest caster but it seems like the spell selection would make for a great rogue.


Nothing is wrong with it -- it simply isn't intuitive enough for many people.


Nothing's wrong with it per se, but it does cause you to sacrifice some caster levels to take levels in rogue (or perhaps alchemist). Since a lot of people only care about max damage output, the 3/4 rogue + 3/4 wizard that AT ends up being is seen as inferior simply because you'll never get either the most spell damage or the most sneak attack damage.

I love arcane trickster. Sleight of handing random crap around at range is boss, and the tricky spells are nice too. I only wish it was possible to access earlier than level 7.

EDIT: I should also say that the AT makes a really good out-of-combat class. A rogue who brings his own invisibility and mending spells? Nice. However, out of combat = nothing to do with max damage output...


It might be interesting with the Ninja class since that is a rogue class. I don't see why that wouldn't work.


A player in my group recently played an AT in a game that went all the way from 1-20. He wasn't the most powerful member of the group (that was a bard/divine chord/soldier of light, pretty cheesey character) but he held his own quite well. He used the Skirmisher archetype and a Warmage conversion to be quite effective with rays.

he was consistently rolling 20+ d6 against multiple enemies, and with quickened spells he could do a lot of damage. There's nothing that would stop a Sorcerer from doing something similar (though loss of Warmage Edge would sting a little).

While it's not the best damage dealer, at high levels he was doing that with greater invis and mind blank up (courtesy of scrolls and later an item) he had pretty solid defenses as well.

Silver Crusade

The end result of Int base Caster 18 / Rogue 2. Is a better caster and over all fills both roles better then the AT. At least thats my opion. Backed up with geting to see alot of them played


The Forgotten wrote:
Um what's wrong with this PrC? It's not the world greatest caster but it seems like the spell selection would make for a great rogue.

You would think, but the PrC is very lack luster.

The AT has the BAB and hps of a wizard.

The AT doesn't have the skills of a rogue, or the bonuses for traps, etc.

The AT doesn't advance either the rogue talents or the wizard school.

Now couple that many ATs try to take on BOTH roles and you've got most ATs that you see played.

Lastly, like the last poster mentioned, take a Rogue2/WizardX and compare it to an AT and see what the AT gets over the Wizard with a dip into Rogue. He gets some abilities that advance sneak attacks. Is that why you looked at the AT? For a wizard with sneak attack?

-James


AT suffers when it first takes its multiclass levels and shines when it gets its later abilities. For games that have a lot of non-combat scenarios, it's an excellent setup.


The AT needs the medium attack bonus and 6 skill points per level, and some way to advance caster and rogue abilities, like some metamagic or rogue talents.


It's not a bad class per see though, being that it requires a character to multiclass while minimizing the core/base classes, it suffers as does all prestige classes from Paizo's dislike/disregard of multiclassing. Further, the lack of options for tweaking the class (which exists in abundance for the core/base classes) leaves the former lacking.


You can think of your potential arcane trickster PC in two ways: as a rogue with spellcasting, or as a spellcaster with some roguishness.

As a mostly-rogue, it suffers from having a low BAB and fewer skills (but the spellcasting is quite nice).

As a mostly-spellcaster, it suffers from having too many missed caster levels in exchange for sneak attack (which isn't all it's cracked up to be, for a spellcaster).


I'd like to add this as a nice resource for making your AT more fun to play. The Street Mage feat alone is worth the price. Run it by your GM.

Shadow Lodge

I agree with Hogarth's comments, I would also add that it's one of the more painful prestige classes to get into because you spend a lot of levels being far less powerful than everyone else. Character levels between 5th and 10th are particularly painful.

One thing that might be curious to is possibly a vivisectionist alchemist/ wizard trickster but I don't think that will fix any of the above issues.


0gre wrote:

I agree with Hogarth's comments, I would also add that it's one of the more painful prestige classes to get into because you spend a lot of levels being far less powerful than everyone else. Character levels between 5th and 10th are particularly painful.

One thing that might be curious to is possibly a vivisectionist alchemist/ wizard trickster but I don't think that will fix any of the above issues.

There are relatively painless ways to get into it (e.g. I think a rogue/bard or a sorcerer/rogue/dragon disciple would be a perfectly reasonable character to play from levels 1-7), but it just doesn't seem worth the bother to me.


hogarth wrote:
There are relatively painless ways to get into it (e.g. I think a rogue/bard or a sorcerer/rogue/dragon disciple would be a perfectly reasonable character to play from levels 1-7), but it just doesn't seem worth the bother to me.

With the new(ish) Sandman Bard archetype from the Advanced Player's Guide, you can actually get into Arcane Trickster without multiclassing, as the Archetype grants the Bard a Sneak Attack progression. The downside, of course, being that the Bard does not get many good Touch Attack spells (if any?), so you lose one of the best strategies for the class.

Shadow Lodge

My suggestion for a sneaky, skills focused, spell castery Arcane Trickster alternate is rather predictable, Alchemist. Vivisectionist if sneak attack is important.


There was an AT in a game I played under 3.0. She and I pulled Rogue duty in a group that averaged 8 players and she backed up the artillery Sorcerer as well. More than once, her utility spells saved our collective arses! And Ranged Legedarmain (?) can be very useful.

She really suffered from not being able to specialize her gear, as only her Int boosting circlet and light armor really counted in both classes. The Ref allowed her to SA with rays under 30'.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

There's nothing wrong with the arcane trickster; it's just a bit narrowly focused as a ranged touch attack sniper for some people. The Ranged Legerdemain ability is pretty nice and the Impromptu Sneak Attack gives you some opportunities to get more use out of your abilities; the Surprise Spells capstone is also nothing to sneer at.

The "best" route (IMO) is elf (+2 Dex, +2 Int; longbow proficiency) rogue (sniper) 3/wizard (admixture) 3/arcane trickster 6/arcane archer 2/arcane trickster +4/wizard +2. This gives you extra options (with Imbue Arrow) for delivering area effect spells; depending on your GM, you may be able to apply Sneak Attack damage to both the arrow and an imbued area effect damage spell with Surprise Spell. If you take Craft Arms and Armor, you can even craft your own brilliant energy arrows (ignore armor and shield bonuses) at higher levels when you want to use your 5th-level spell slots for other things than Quickened true strike. Take Craft Wondrous Item as well and you can craft a set of sniper goggles. Granted, you have to spend three of your feats to qualify for arcane archer (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Weapon Focus (longbow or short bow)), but two of them are pretty useful to ranged touch attacks so it's possible that you'd take them anyway. Also, you lose one more level of spell progression, but gain +1 BAB and Imbue Spell (a fair trade IMO).

Unfortunately, the mage hand requirement prevents alchemists and witches from becoming arcane tricksters, bards lack ranged touch damaging spells to take full advantage and actually lose skill ranks, and summoners lose eidolon progression. Sorcerers (especially of the wildblooded sage bloodline) are an option, although your spell selection can be problematical because of your limited spells known.

The Exchange

Having played one to the early PRC levels, I can say that your offensive spells aren't particularly useful as you are behind the curve and tend to be situational. Self buffing and disabling traps from a distance are very useful. I wouldn't play one again if there was another full time arcane caster in the party.

Liberty's Edge

Golden-Esque wrote:
With the new(ish) Sandman Bard archetype from the Advanced Player's Guide, you can actually get into Arcane Trickster without multiclassing

Translation: you can get your bard killed by running through melee (in an attempt to haphazardly steal spells) before you get anywhere near the level of the PrC. For this privilege, you give up being of much use to the party whatsoever (since you can no longer Inspire them). If you forfeit Inspire Courage, IMO you should never describe your character as a 'bard', ever.

Sandman Bard is about the lamest munchkin-trap of all time.

DM: "You manage to successfully steal the sorcerer's spell instead of dishing out damage or buffing the party. It's a Quickened Scorching Ray. You also guess something scary: he can cast that baby around ten more times today, and it's now his turn. To your horror, you witness a demonic transformation as he laughs evilly. Now, you might have been expecting Scorch + Quickened Scorch, but he has something much more wicked in mind. First, he grapples you while his body is wreathed in flames...."


Actually once stolen the sorcerer can not cast the spell again until after you are done with it.

A side note -- Aberrant Sorcerer makes a mean arcane trickster -- being able to flank from 10~20 feet away is very nice (including lunge and robes of arcane heritage and such things).

Silver Crusade

Mike Schneider wrote:
Golden-Esque wrote:
With the new(ish) Sandman Bard archetype from the Advanced Player's Guide, you can actually get into Arcane Trickster without multiclassing

Translation: you can get your bard killed by running through melee (in an attempt to haphazardly steal spells) before you get anywhere near the level of the PrC. For this privilege, you give up being of much use to the party whatsoever (since you can no longer Inspire them). If you forfeit Inspire Courage, IMO you should never describe your character as a 'bard', ever.

Sandman Bard is about the lamest munchkin-trap of all time.

DM: "You manage to successfully steal the sorcerer's spell instead of dishing out damage or buffing the party. It's a Quickened Scorching Ray. You also guess something scary: he can cast that baby around ten more times today, and it's now his turn. To your horror, you witness a demonic transformation as he laughs evilly. Now, you might have been expecting Scorch + Quickened Scorch, but he has something much more wicked in mind. First, he grapples you while his body is wreathed in flames...."

He can't steal a metamagic from a spontanious caster. He can take scorching ray but not quickend scorching ray. But yes your right.

Scarab Sages

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Unfortunately, the mage hand requirement prevents alchemists and witches from becoming arcane tricksters, bards lack ranged touch damaging spells to take full advantage and actually lose skill ranks, and summoners lose eidolon progression. Sorcerers (especially of the wildblooded sage bloodline) are an option, although your spell selection can be problematical because of your limited spells known.

The two worlds magic trait allows you to add a single cantrip from another class to yours. Thus, all arcane caster classes can now qualify for AT.

My favorite combo is a rouge (Poisoner)3/ Witch 4 + Arcane trickster levels. If you take the Witch hexes like cauldron, disguise, and slumber that aren't tied to level, you can create a nice spell using assassian. Poison creation/alteration + cauldron makes some nice synergy.

Liberty's Edge

Abraham spalding wrote:
Actually once stolen the sorcerer can not cast the spell again until after you are done with it.

I stand corrected.

Sandman is still a trap, however, as it subjects a class ill-prepared for melee, or being adjacent to high-level caster, to all the badness inherent in that gamble. Also, since the Sandman steals the highest possible spell that he can cast, it's not going to be the worst spell his opponent can sling out.

The true lameless of Sandman becomes apparent at bard17, when straight-class cleric or wizard opponents have 9th-level spells, and the highest level you can steal is 6th. For this myeh, he has given up +4 Inspire Courage, Inspire Heroics, Suggestion and Mass Suggestion (at 8th). An epic levels, he sucks even worse.


Its ok at higher levels, but a wizard 3 rogue 3 can be a little disappointing.


Arcane Trickster can be as effective, or more, than a straight rogue.

But it's no straight wizard. When people try to play them that way, it usually turns out badly.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

The Forgotten wrote:
Um what's wrong with this PrC? It's not the world greatest caster but it seems like the spell selection would make for a great rogue.

I've been in a campaign for about 2.5 years now that just wrapped up last night, playing a human rogue/fae sorc/AT. We went from 2nd to 22nd level so I got to see pretty much the entire run of an AT build.

I have a few comments:

Levels 7-12 are rough. Just as everyone else is coming into their own the AT is just really getting started. It's a long term game plan.

There aren't very many ranged touch direct damage spells in PF. At levels above 2, I think there are disintegrate and polar ray. Expect to use scorching ray a lot and hope it isn't immune to fire. (I didn't even attempt a melee build - AC28 and 150 hp at 22nd level, +12 to hit? no thanks)

Even at the best times, I was a supporter/mediocre at combat. Invisibly casting buffs on party members was often my big contribution, and it often did matter. Sneak attacking disintegrate is fun though.

The AT really shines out of combat. You are a consummate problem solver. Ranged Legerdemain is really good- picking pockets and disarming traps/locks from 30 feet away? Yes please.

Silver Crusade

rkraus2 wrote:

Arcane Trickster can be as effective, or more, than a straight rogue.

But it's no straight wizard. When people try to play them that way, it usually turns out badly.

Sorry but thats just not the case. Arcane Tricksters are not more effective then a stright rogue. They lack the BAB and sneak attack damage. They can do things a rogue can't do. They are not better in any way. Pure rogues can add great effectivens to the party. The arcane tricksters dose two jobs ok. But the full rogue or full wizard will be better then the arcane trickster at there job.

Short fast rules for multiclassing.
1. Pick what you want to do well. Focus when you build your character on one top stat, 2-3 secondary stats, 1-2 low stats.
2. Only level dip 1-2 levels in most cases. Im looking at you Ranger level 6 for Str two weapon fighting builds.
3. Mixing full BAB with 3/4 BAB is not a bad. Mixing 1/2 BAB with Full BAB is a wast of time. Mixing 1/2 BAB with 3/4 BAB is even more a wast of time.
4. Make sure the class your multiclassing in to gives you somthing in retrun. Barbarian1(Fast Move, Martal Weapons) Monk2(Saves+3, Evasion, Bonus Feats) Rogue2 (Trapfinding, Evasion, class skills) to name a few.
5. Start with class abilitys and build the class slection first. Then build your feats and skills.


I found the Arcane Trickster to be extremely nasty, especially so with Sniper's Goggles. A high level Arcane Trickster with Sniper's Goggles, Mind Blank, and Greater Invisibility is a pretty sick damage dealer.


Mike Schneider wrote:
The true lameless of Sandman becomes apparent at bard17, when straight-class cleric or wizard opponents have 9th-level spells, and the highest level you can steal is 6th. For this myeh, he has given up +4 Inspire Courage, Inspire Heroics, Suggestion and Mass Suggestion (at 8th). An epic levels, he sucks even worse.

First off, I disagree with you completely. Being a bard is not about one specific ability (Inspire Courage). It's about making performances and the magic that comes from being able to freely express one's self.

Second, spellsteal is not a "one and done" trick. A bard continues to possess the spell they steal for as long as they continue the performance. This can open plenty of doors for the Sandman Bard that can get quite amusing. Why? Because nowhere in the ability's description does it say that you can only steal spells from enemies. In a critical moment where two spells need to go off for the party to succeed, the Sandman Bard can steal one of the spells from his ally and cast it while the ally casts the remaining spell themselves. At 15th level, they can take whatever they want, whenever they want, so instead of hoping that they take the critical spell from their ally, they are assured it.

Finally, I never said in my original post that I thought the Sandman was an amazing archetype. I merely pointed out that a Bard could easily get into the Arcane Trickster prestige class without multiclassing. It's definitely not the most optimized option, but that does not mean that it is a nonexistent one.


Sorry but thats just not the case. Arcane Tricksters are not more effective then a stright rogue. They lack the BAB and sneak attack damage

-You don't need much bab for touch attacks. An arcane trickster with scorching ray and improved invisibility can put out some pretty scary damage.

The trick is to not act exactly like the wizard or try to act exactly like a rogue (by meleeing things) but to combine the two.


calagnar wrote:


Sorry but thats just not the case. Arcane Tricksters are not more effective then a straight rogue. They lack the BAB and sneak attack damage.

If job of the rogue = do damage, then you might be right. It'll depend on the details of course.

If job of the rogue = solve problems, then the versatility of an arcane trickster is tough to beat. flight, invisibility, clairovoyance, etc. are all abilities that are amazing useful in any campaign that isn't 100% focused on fighting monsters. An AT will have scribe scroll, and usually has the exact right thing for any situation.

I've seen these guys in action, and played well, they can do amazing things. If you're willing to allow a few 3.5 spells, they get even better.

My personal experience is that I've seen a lot of poorly played rogues, and a few well-played arcane tricksters. Your results may vary.

*I will admit, it's a difficult road mechanically. AT's will never have a good fortitude save, and levels 3-6 are a pain.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


-You don't need much bab for touch attacks. An arcane trickster with scorching ray and improved invisibility can put out some pretty scary damage.

Not really, even at 11th CL (which is baring traits/magic items) 14th level, you're looking at (if all 3 hit, and they couldn't see through your invis at this level) 18d6, or 63 average damage.

Meanwhile a unhasted TWF rogue with non-magical short swords finessing with a 10STR can deal that by 9th level. Now he's got to hit, but his BAB is only 1 less than the 14th level PC above. Sure he's got to hit real AC vs touch AC.. but we're talking the difference between a 9th level and 14th level PC here! That's WORLDS apart.. or should be.

An arcane trickster advances sneak attack, but it doesn't let him deal damage like sneak attack. Meanwhile it doesn't advance talents, rogue trapfinding, or anything in which they really should specialize... you know to be 'tricky'.

BigNorseWolf wrote:


The trick is to not act exactly like the wizard or try to act exactly like a rogue (by meleeing things) but to combine the two.

I agree the trick in all these hybrids is not to be 'half this and half that' but rather to find one's own niche.

Sadly the arcane trickster's class abilities don't lend themselves as much to this as they should.

If Paizo put the time and love into these hybrid PrCs that they did into the main core classes I think we all would have been both amazed and happy, instead of seeing what works as a quickfix for the 3.5 versions that are based on the 3.5 base classes before this degree of care and tweaking.

-James


I recently finished playing an AT from 2ish to 15th. She was in a game/campaign that was entirely unsuited to AT and probably the most useful things she did were casting Haste and occasionally DDoor to move the melee fighters around.

* I think medium attack bonus (with the slightly greater hit die) would really help to make the AT fun and useful with a better balance between rogue/mage, although melee would still be a tricky path due to the difficulty of concentration when you're missing caster levels.

* Ranged sneak attack becomes pretty difficult later on because invisibility doesn't work and you're missing three levels of spell progression, so that spells to overcome this (Mind Blank) are available late and are precious. And also don't work against a bunch of other things.

* I would /adore/ some ability to learn other classes' spells to expand the rather paltry selection of melee touch spells, and I think stealing knowledge and breaking the rules fits for the class theme. My AT would have loved Flame Blade, for example.

However, I'm not totally off Arcane Tricksters even as they are. I'd really like to try again (maybe using the Words of Power system if it's as flexible as it looked at a glance) sometime either in a smaller group or with a pre-written module where the difficulties to do things aren't necessarily based on the best-suited characters in a party. (ACs aren't geared so the melee fighters have a hard time hitting, Magic Resistance isn't geared to full casters who specialize to overcome it, the tricksy bits of a trickster aren't totally irrelevant through the entire campaign, and so.) Being a little bit useful in any situation is a lot of fun; being absolutely useless in every situation, not so much.

tl;dr: Arcane Tricksters are really fun when the rest of the party isn't specialized and superpowered.

Scarab Sages

james maissen wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:


-You don't need much bab for touch attacks. An arcane trickster with scorching ray and improved invisibility can put out some pretty scary damage.

Not really, even at 11th CL (which is baring traits/magic items) 14th level, you're looking at (if all 3 hit, and they couldn't see through your invis at this level) 18d6, or 63 average damage.

Meanwhile a unhasted TWF rogue with non-magical short swords finessing with a 10STR can deal that by 9th level. Now he's got to hit, but his BAB is only 1 less than the 14th level PC above. Sure he's got to hit real AC vs touch AC.. but we're talking the difference between a 9th level and 14th level PC here! That's WORLDS apart.. or should be.

An arcane trickster advances sneak attack, but it doesn't let him deal damage like sneak attack. Meanwhile it doesn't advance talents, rogue trapfinding, or anything in which they really should specialize... you know to be 'tricky'.

Actually, a 12th level Arcane Trickster (who WILL have the caster level increasing Trait)(3 rays from Scorching Ray) is getting 15d6 damage from sneak attack alone, for a total of 27d6 damage (12d6 from rays, 15 from Sneak Attack), or ~94.5 damage as a Standard Action. Now, I'll admit, it's not GREAT, but to pull off that kind of damage, a standard rogue needs to be in melee range (generally speaking), and hit the considerably higher regular AC with his medium BAB (lower with two-weapon fighting).

So let's just say we have a 12th level Rogue who hits for 6d6 Sneak Attack and gets 4 attacks from Two-Weapon Fighting (5 if he can get Haste). Using the Strength Modifier you suggested, he HAS to be Weapon Finesse, so each hit will do 1d6+ Sneak Attack (or 1d4 for a kukri, doesn't matter), for 7d6 damage per hit, or 28d6 damage on a full attack, with a lower chance to hit, without magical defenses, or the ability to buff allies with spells as well.

Don't get me wrong, I think Rogues are useful, but getting multiple rays on an Arcane Trickster is probably the best way of dealing damage with a standard action in the game (except for Charging... maybe). And once you can quicken spells or get Surprise Spells (Cold Ice Strike ftw), it gets even more ridiculous.

*Edit: Forgot to mention a couple of things. 1) Point Blank shot will add about 3 damage per casting. Not a lot, but it's still nice. 2)If you decide to go the Draconic Sorcerer route, you add an extra 4 damage per ray from the class special ability. Or, if you want some versatility with it, be an Elemental sorcerer and choose NOT FIRE as your element. Oh, and Half-Orc will get you an extra 2 damage (though it isn't per ray, it's per spell. Darn.)


Davor wrote:


Actually, a 12th level Arcane Trickster (who WILL have the caster level increasing Trait)(3 rays from Scorching Ray) is getting 15d6 damage from sneak attack alone, for a total of 27d6 damage (12d6 from rays, 15 from Sneak Attack), or ~94.5 damage as a Standard Action.

Actually he only gets sneak attack once.

Scorching rays are all fired together as one attack, unlike say a full attack with a bow. All the targets are picked at once, and if the caster were say normal invis'd he would pop visible after this single attack that fires three rays (at CL 11).

There is some table variation on this, but this is, imho, the most consistent ruling and the one with which 3.5 officially ruled to be true.

And don't get me wrong, I like the concept of the arcane trickster. I just don't like how WotC made them, and then Paizo only did a surface alteration which nowhere matched what they did with either of the base classes from which such a PrC would be coming.

That a pure wizard would have the same BAB and HIGHER hps than an arcane trickster simply doesn't represent what their role is in a party.

-James

Scarab Sages

Actually:

James Jacobs said


Davor wrote:

Actually:

James Jacobs said

And what he says is how he'd do it on the fly as a GM.

It's not a good ruling as a matter of RAW however.

The rays are not sequential but rather are simultaneous. That is the entire point here.

You'll note where he gets that bit wrong. A volley of rays from scorching ray is not like a full attack.

You'll also note that they were talking about surprise spells ability of the Arcane trickster, and there he also ruled that magic missile would only get sneak attack on ONE target.

Now when you look at the way the targets of both scorching ray and magic missile are chosen, you'll note that they are identical.

James Jacobs wrote:
You add the sneak attack damage to only one missile. There's multiple missiles, yeah, but only one spell.

-James

Scarab Sages

james maissen wrote:
Davor wrote:

Actually:

James Jacobs said

And what he says is how he'd do it on the fly as a GM.

It's not a good ruling as a matter of RAW however.

The rays are not sequential but rather are simultaneous. That is the entire point here.

You'll note where he gets that bit wrong. A volley of rays from scorching ray is not like a full attack.

You'll also note that they were talking about surprise spells ability of the Arcane trickster, and there he also ruled that magic missile would only get sneak attack on ONE target.

Now when you look at the way the targets of both scorching ray and magic missile are chosen, you'll note that they are identical.

James Jacobs wrote:
You add the sneak attack damage to only one missile. There's multiple missiles, yeah, but only one spell.
-James

Not quite. The rays are fired off at the same time, yes, but each is its own separate attack, which is why each ray gains the benefit from Sneak Attack. Yes, the targets are chosen the same way as Magic Missile, but Scorching Ray requires attacks, whereas Magic Missile does not. Big difference there. In addition, the wording of Suprise Spell is fairly clear in that it only applies once per spell, but this is a different scenario.

Also, I've heard lots of people say... "Well, that's how JJ would do it as a DM, but per RAW it isn't a strong case."

It's a good point, except that he's the Creative Director, and his decisions on various rules are about as close to RAW as you can get.

Again, if you were using the Surprise Spell ability, you'd be right. However, this is basic sneak attack damage. Whether you fire the rays off at the same time or not is irrelevant. Each is a separate attack, and as such, gains all the benefits of increasing individual damage, including Sneak Attack, as long as the criteria is met.

Paizo Employee Developer

Davor wrote:


It's a good point, except that he's the Creative Director, and his decisions on various rules are about as close to RAW as you can get.

Not quite. James himself has said he doesn't like his interpretations of rules to be viewed this way. You want RAW, you want Jason Bulmahn or other design team members.


The AT is ONLY effective sneak attacking with spells. His BAB is as lame as the wizard's, making melee pretty much useless for him.

I wouldn't take away from the only decent damage ability he's got. 3 rays, 3 attack rolls, 3 sneak attacks. He'll never see 3 melee attacks with most builds.

Which is why he deserves the rogue BAB, at a minimum. Probably rogue hit points, too.

Scarab Sages

Alorha wrote:
Davor wrote:


It's a good point, except that he's the Creative Director, and his decisions on various rules are about as close to RAW as you can get.

Not quite. James himself has said he doesn't like his interpretations of rules to be viewed this way. You want RAW, you want Jason Bulmahn or other design team members.

Fair enough :P

Still, the fact that each ray gets an attack roll should be enough to get each ray Sneak attack damage. I was originally tempted to view it like Many Shot, except that the two arrows of Many Shot have the same attack roll. Scorching Ray doesn't work like this, therefore Precision Damage should be applied to each ray.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Davor wrote:
Alorha wrote:
Davor wrote:


It's a good point, except that he's the Creative Director, and his decisions on various rules are about as close to RAW as you can get.

Not quite. James himself has said he doesn't like his interpretations of rules to be viewed this way. You want RAW, you want Jason Bulmahn or other design team members.

Fair enough :P

Still, the fact that each ray gets an attack roll should be enough to get each ray Sneak attack damage. I was originally tempted to view it like Many Shot, except that the two arrows of Many Shot have the same attack roll. Scorching Ray doesn't work like this, therefore Precision Damage should be applied to each ray.

With that intepretation Scorching Ray becomes insanely overpowered compared to Polar Ray.


the AT... is sub par at best, even at its original creation point in 3.0 it was sub par.

the unseen seer was a better mage rogue deal than the AT could ever be.

as a stealth mage though....borderline.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

The Arcane Trickster looks like a hell of a lot of fun to play. If it looks fun to you, play it! If it doesn't look fun to you, don't!

I wouldn't play one in a heavy combat, no story, for optimizers only type of campaign, but I wouldn't play in that kind of campaign anyway. In the versatile, half-to-third combat, half-to-two-thirds roleplay, puzzle solving, trapfinding, intrigue, and general chicanery type of campaigns my friends and I play, an Arcane Trickster would be a versatile and useful party member, a great team character with both some great buffs, attacks, and skills. The AT would probably get some awesome moments where he shone with a magical sneak attack or ranged legerdemain, and other great moments where he helped the rest of the party be more awesome.

I would love to play one.

I would particularly love to play one named "Imoen."


Davor wrote:

Fair enough :P

Still, the fact that each ray gets an attack roll should be enough to get each ray Sneak attack damage. I was originally tempted to view it like Many Shot, except that the two arrows of Many Shot have the same attack roll. Scorching Ray doesn't work like this, therefore Precision Damage should be applied to each ray.

This is how I would rule. Getting a chance to sneak attack for every roll you make seems intuitive to me since that's how it works for everything else.

LazarX wrote:
With that intepretation Scorching Ray becomes insanely overpowered compared to Polar Ray.

It requires a lot of specialization and lost caster levels to pull off, so I don't see a problem with it.


Quote:
With that intepretation Scorching Ray becomes insanely overpowered compared to Polar Ray.

If we follow james jacobs'interpretation, then only with Surprise spells and Greater invisibility (+Mind blank). That's not quite insane.

The question here is : how to make the Arcane Trickster a funnier class to play ?
Not whether we should follow james jacobs or the Complete Arcane authors.

Personally, though I really like the idea of the trickster and wish to see them do more in combat, I'm hesitant to allow multiple SA on volley attacks. It would make a soundstriker bard/AT awesome and probably overpowered.

I think the simpler solution would be to readjust the AT skill points per level and BAB. And maybe correct impromptu sneak attack, something like this:
Beginning at 1st level, the arcane trickster can cast Mage hand as part of another spell's casting to momentarily distract or blind one target, rendering it flat-flooted in regard to the spell cast. The AT can use this ability a number of times per day equal to his level.
And replace the impromptu SA ability of third level with tricky spells 2/day.
That helps the AT when he really needs help. I think.


Hoga the half orc wrote:

The AT is ONLY effective sneak attacking with spells. His BAB is as lame as the wizard's, making melee pretty much useless for him.

I wouldn't take away from the only decent damage ability he's got. 3 rays, 3 attack rolls, 3 sneak attacks. He'll never see 3 melee attacks with most builds.

Which is why he deserves the rogue BAB, at a minimum. Probably rogue hit points, too.

I wouldn't misrule things just to make the badly designed class viable.

Rather I agree with you that the AT should get a medium BAB/d8 hps, as it is a pure wizard will have more hps than an AT and that's just plain wrong.

The trickster should be.. well a trickster and not a poor sneak attack machine that relies on a bad ruling on scorching ray sneak attacks to be viable.

And while each ray does require its own hitroll it is NOT the same as a full attack action, but rather all are fired at once. That is a huge distinction. And I don't see any reason to alter the 3.5 stance on these volley attacks. Especially if its just to let a badly designed PrC be viable.. I'd rather house rule the PrC and really make it viable instead.

-James


james maissen wrote:

And while each ray does require its own hitroll it is NOT the same as a full attack action, but rather all are fired at once. That is a huge distinction.

-James

So what happens when the Arcane Trickster chooses 3 different flat-footed targets for his Scorching Ray? Do you get to pick which one is subject to sneak attack? Is it rolled randomly?

I can see your point on the whole full attack vs. standard action thing, but am wondering how to deal with this.


Madak wrote:
james maissen wrote:

And while each ray does require its own hitroll it is NOT the same as a full attack action, but rather all are fired at once. That is a huge distinction.

-James

So what happens when the Arcane Trickster chooses 3 different flat-footed targets for his Scorching Ray? Do you get to pick which one is subject to sneak attack? Is it rolled randomly?

I can see your point on the whole full attack vs. standard action thing, but am wondering how to deal with this.

So let me get this right AT sucks if you make up some odd I,plied rule exception that keeps the AT from sneak attacking with all three scorching rays. Without this implied, exception that nevercappears in the RAW, the ability to drop three sneak attacks on a standard action is actually fairly good.

1 to 50 of 127 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / What's wrong with an Arcane Trickster? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.