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Actually if you check the weapons table in the APG (or here) you will see that brass knuckles are listes under unarmed attacks. This means that using brass knuckles is an unarmed attack and thus follows all pertinent rules, and this also means they can be used along with any unarmed strike abilities one might possess. At least, that is my interpretation.
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Actually if you check the weapons table in the APG (or here) you will see that brass knuckles are listes under unarmed attacks. This means that using brass knuckles is an unarmed attack and thus follows all pertinent rules, and this also means they can be used along with any unarmed strike abilities one might possess. At least, that is my interpretation.
Good catch Zaister.
If we can include 3.5 material (or 3.0, I don't remember when it came out), the Bracers of Striking from Magic of Faerun provides an example for an universal item that allows you to enhance a monk's attacks as with a weapon. I don't have the book with me at the moment and it's been a while since I read it, so I can't tell if it enhanced only punches or kicks, headbutts etc would also be improved.
I really think you guys should look at the amulet of mighty fists more closely... seems to answer the majority of the issues here.
You can never get an effective enhancement greater than +5 (which means no weapon properties like Holy, Bane, or other goodies) And one amulet costs about the same as 2.5 weapons of equal enhancement.
This creates issues with itemization that every other character class does not have to face.
It also takes up the neck slot, which potentially screws with the ability to properly scale AC and other things.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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brass knuckles is an unarmed attack and thus follows all pertinent rules, and this also means they can be used along with any unarmed strike abilities one might possess. At least, that is my interpretation.
That has been mentioned a number of times in the past.
A fine interpretation, but there are a number of people (me included) that disagree that table proves your assertion.
It disagrees with posts by Paizo staff (including SKR) saying that BK attacks are not unarmed strike attacks and things like weapon focus unarmed strike won't help a BK attack.
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Do people actually pay attention to SKR's rule interpretations? He doesn't exactly have the best track record. His expertise is in writing fluff.brass knuckles is an unarmed attack and thus follows all pertinent rules, and this also means they can be used along with any unarmed strike abilities one might possess. At least, that is my interpretation.That has been mentioned a number of times in the past.
A fine interpretation, but there are a number of people (me included) that disagree that table proves your assertion.
It disagrees with posts by Paizo staff (including SKR) saying that BK attacks are not unarmed strike attacks and things like weapon focus unarmed strike won't help a BK attack.
I actually don't pay attention to anything that's not
1) Official FAQ/Errata
2) A post by Jason
Both SKR and James have a tendency to fly around with rules interpretation, with Jason at least one can be certain that it's what the lead designer has to say.
I really think you guys should look at the amulet of mighty fists more closely... seems to answer the majority of the issues here.You can never get an effective enhancement greater than +5 (which means no weapon properties like Holy, Bane, or other goodies) And one amulet costs about the same as 2.5 weapons of equal enhancement.
This creates issues with itemization that every other character class does not have to face.
I find AoMF works fine for creatures with natural attacks (specifically more than one). It's terrible for monks, who have a single weapon they use (just the one unarmed strike, even when flurrying).
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Do people actually pay attention to SKR's rule interpretations?
I actually don't pay attention to anything that's not
1) Official FAQ/Errata
2) A post by Jason
Ok, let me rephrase then.
I do pay attention to SKR, and if you sit at my PFS table that is how I'll be interpreting BK's.
I should make it clear I have a 12th level character I'll be playing the 12th arc at Gencon that has BK and I use (prefer) the "BK are not unarmed strikes" interpretation unless the GM overrules my interpretation.
I'd love it if you could get Jason to answer one way or another. I couldn't care which way to interpret them, but with a known answer online (SKR way) I won't be intentionally ignoring his advice.
It's just called brass knuckles... what prevents reflavouring to wrappings or bangles really? Mechanically it's really just about the damage, price, weight and slot taken.
You sir, have the right idea. I wish enough people listened to common sense. So much arguing about semantics, it grates on your nerves after a while. :P
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It's just called brass knuckles... what prevents reflavouring to wrappings or bangles really? Mechanically it's really just about the damage, price, weight and slot taken.You sir, have the right idea. I wish enough people listened to common sense. So much arguing about semantics, it grates on your nerves after a while. :P
The problem arises when you're a player that wants that flavor. It has nothing to do with a lack of common sense or any other sort of personal deficiency. It has to do with having no support when your GM wants to stick to the rules.
I would and do allow reflavoring in order for a player to have their character feel the way they want, but then I also like to play as well.
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You can never get an effective enhancement greater than +5 (which means no weapon properties like Holy, Bane, or other goodies) And one amulet costs about the same as 2.5 weapons of equal enhancement.
Fo' srs.
As someone else put it, you're paying over twice as much as the fighter to have the same freedom in describing your attacks.
For a summoner that might be a fair price, but for a standard race monk? Egh.
I tend to look at that from DM perspective. The player wants an item but describe it different. Well, why not. I's not stretching the rules in any way, at worst I'd look at magic item creation and devise if it wouldn't increase the cost somewhat if he wanted it in a different slot. I think it would be a stretch if I told my players what does their dress look like in detail and expectd no deviation.
P.S. Sajan (monk from core book) employs brass knuckles from the start :)
When it comes to what I'd do for my monk players if they were to have issues with the Amulet of Mighty Fists, would be to do one of three things..
1) Offer a slight change to the amulet, allowing it to go up to +10 maximum, and make it the same price as two weapons of that type would be..
2) Offer the option of a magical "Body Tattoo" that would run along their arms/legs. This would have the same effect as the Amulet of Mighty Fists, and would cost as much as the standard version. The cap would be at +10 as well..
3) Offer a change to the Brass Knuckles to classify them as various "Foot and Hand Wraps" that would hold in place magically through combat and other difficult situations (until they remove them).. and it would have a maximum bonus of +10. It would cost 1.5x the normal weapon cost but would take up both weapon slots, and the boot slot. Main benefit to this is that they cannot be disarmed, and it would function for all of their attacks.
Ofc they could always choose to get the standard Brass Knuckles as well.. But I would require someone to have two if they want to hit with more then one hand with the bonuses.
P.S. Sajan (monk from core book) employs brass knuckles from the start :)
Where? He doesn't in Kingmaker, instead having both AoMF and a Temple sword.
I don't have any of the latter adventure paths so that's why I wouldn't know.
@Gloom, it's not for the lack of ideas, (this thread's full of them), but for wanting a little bit more RAW support. GM discretion is a wonderful thing, and can help players play up cool concepts (I once played a dude who gradually became a construct, that was cool).
But if someone wants to do PFS? Or has a less flexible GM? Then we're stuck with the flavor given.
Granted, I'm personally of the opinion that flavor breaking things are wonderful opportunities for RP and quirky character concepts. Helps exercise creativity and encourages lateral thinking.
@Rex
Eh, My opinion has always been that certain things don't "need" to be printed and that GM's really should relax a bit when it comes to the rules. The Designers have said previously that the game is about having fun and a loose interpretation of the rules can accomplish just that. When it comes to PFS play, there's always the option of writing up a backstory and presenting it for approval along with several considerations that are needed to accomplish the character. As long as the considerations are balanced, I personally think it's possible to get it approved.
As long as it has the exact same mechanical crunchy bits, what does it matter if you want custom fluff for a cool concept?
@Everyone..
When it comes to Amulet of Mighty Fists, yes while I think that it is very vaguely worded, and very restrictive.. keep in mind that "Fists" are not required for this amulet. These amulets actually have a much better functionality on monster races. It improves all natural attacks..
Tail Swipes, Bite Attacks, Claw Attacks, Gore Attacks.. It's pretty rough when it can add properties and enhancements to all of that. I think it's improperly portrayed as a Monk-like item.
That's one of my issues with it anyhow.
I didn't know that about PFS, that's actually really neat, and am glad they allow that.
I'm in agreement, if the numbers are the same, then go for it, and if there are some unexpected in play implications that are quirky, fun, or just what is needed to prevent move the party along to the next leg of the adventure, even better.
I've been also pretty lucky with some very creative, flexible and smart GMs when I play.
P.S. Sajan (monk from core book) employs brass knuckles from the start :)
Where? He doesn't in Kingmaker, instead having both AoMF and a Temple sword.
...
Not in the stat block, see the picture.
Not in the stat block, see the picture.
Oh, hmm, I thought that was just a little holy symbol or something. I could see how that could be some brass knuckles.
DR can actually be bypassed by a high enough enhancement bonus. I don't remember them exactly, but Adamantium can be bypassed by +4, Alignment by +5, I think Cold Iron/Silver is +3.
I actually never thought about property + Magic Fang/Weapon. That sounds like an interesting idea, if really expensive.
The issue with AoMF, as I see it, is that it has to be balanced not just for the monk's unarmed strikes, but also for natural attacks.
For example, a beast totem barbarian who has also grabbed chaos totem lesser and normal can get a claw-claw-bite-horn full-attack routine at the end of a charge. Have the caster put greater magic fang on him and give him AoMF which adds to ALL of those natural attacks, giving a great return on the dollar since it is cheaper than enchanting 4 weapons separately. As Gloom pointed out, AoMF isn't a monk item.
I would have no issue with reflavoring the brass knuckles to be enchantable hand-wraps, but they specifically need to apply only to unarmed strikes. Messing around with AoMF makes the natural-attack character far too strong, and allowing the natural-attack barbarian to spend his (unused) weapon slot to enchant his natural attacks and leave his neck slot open for natural armor is opening a nasty can of worms.
DR can actually be bypassed by a high enough enhancement bonus. I don't remember them exactly, but Adamantium can be bypassed by +4, Alignment by +5, I think Cold Iron/Silver is +3.
I actually never thought about property + Magic Fang/Weapon. That sounds like an interesting idea, if really expensive.
Where is the rule for this?
Thanks,-Moox
DR can actually be bypassed by a high enough enhancement bonus. I don't remember them exactly, but Adamantium can be bypassed by +4, Alignment by +5, I think Cold Iron/Silver is +3.
I actually never thought about property + Magic Fang/Weapon. That sounds like an interesting idea, if really expensive.
Where is the rule for this?
Thanks,
-Moox
under Overcoming DR.
The issue with AoMF, as I see it, is that it has to be balanced not just for the monk's unarmed strikes, but also for natural attacks.
For example, a beast totem barbarian who has also grabbed chaos totem lesser and normal can get a claw-claw-bite-horn full-attack routine at the end of a charge. Have the caster put greater magic fang on him and give him AoMF which adds to ALL of those natural attacks, giving a great return on the dollar since it is cheaper than enchanting 4 weapons separately. As Gloom pointed out, AoMF isn't a monk item.
Well, that does go a long way to explaining the AoMF. Hadn't thought of it that way before, makes a lot of sense. It does mean that it's severely misrepresented. It's called the Amulet of Mighty Fists, as opposed to the Amulet of Tooth and Claw or some such), and until the Brass Knuckles were published, it was really the only game in town if the monk wanted permanent enhancements to his Unarmed Strike--and for that purpose, it is definitely overpriced.
I would have no issue with reflavoring the brass knuckles to be enchantable hand-wraps, but they specifically need to apply only to unarmed strikes. Messing around with AoMF makes the natural-attack character far too strong, and allowing the natural-attack barbarian to spend his (unused) weapon slot to enchant his natural attacks and leave his neck slot open for natural armor is opening a nasty can of worms.
I don't think anyone's suggested that Brass Knuckles or any reflavored equivalent, should enchant natural attacks (or, at the very least, not claws, bites, tail slaps, etc. Maybe slams, since that's basically a punch, but not what the Amulet does.) If our monk has a method of getting +s and properties to unarmed strike without resort to an amulet which is poorly priced for the purpose or the brass knuckles of a two-copper thug, we'll be happy enough. Better still if we can keep the FoB/unarmed strike flavor of attacking with any portion of the character's body.
I do have to wonder though: why should hand-wraps or foot wraps, or any such really be necessary? What actual issues are there with allowing a monk (or any other character, for that matter) to enchant their unarmed strike directly?
Partly for flavor.
To enhance a weapon one probably goes to a supper sweet blacksmith who either has a caster buddy or the scrolls on hand.
It's a little bit more complex than sprinkling fairy dust. But that's GM and world dependent.
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It's just called brass knuckles... what prevents reflavouring to wrappings or bangles really? Mechanically it's really just about the damage, price, weight and slot taken.
I'm just going throw this out there again because it made a lot of sense. I know official is often very nice but the game encourages people to be creative. This is actually something I've really loved about MnM. The system doesn't just encourage you to reflavor the powers, it begs you too and then will incorporate some of your flavor in the mechanics.
One part of itemization is money though. Giving monks free enhancement could have ramifications that are much harder to grok out until something broken happens.
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I suggested a "Secret Training" feat that the monk get's for free. It works like a craft magic item feat, but uses knowledge(history) instead of craft for the base skill. It represents the monk pouring through the scrolls of ancient wisdom to find advanced techniques known by the enlightened masters of ages past. It's abilities aren't limited to "craft magic weapon" equivalents.
Stolen.
That....makes logical sense.
I just have bad memories of gold inflation happening in a game that resulted in a player having a +2 Keen Frost axe at level 3.
That got dumb quick.
One part of itemization is money though. Giving monks free enhancement could have ramifications that are much harder to grok out until something broken happens.JR, if you're responding to my post, let me clarify that the "Secret Training" would still have a gold cost - digging through the back shelves of the ancient libraries and gaining access to the special collections is going to cost cash.
Likewise, my version would involve meditative rituals. The exact materials required might vary according to particular enhancement and monastic tradition--from incense to tattoos to whatever else--but the upshot is that the monk expends just as much gold as if he was enhancing Brass Knuckles, and gets the same effect without infringing on his flavor.
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The thing that's getting me now is that with LilithThrall's addition, there's a lot of parallel thinking along the lines of alternate approaches to enhancing unarmed strike. On the one hand that makes me hopeful that something like that might actually be in Ultimate Combat, but on the other it has me really wondering why it hasn't happened already.
It's just called brass knuckles... what prevents reflavouring to wrappings or bangles really? Mechanically it's really just about the damage, price, weight and slot taken.I'm just going throw this out there again because it made a lot of sense. I know official is often very nice but the game encourages people to be creative.
Provided the GM even allows it. :(
Some look at players seeking flavor beyond what's stated in the rules and automatically peg them as trying to worm an extra +1 or whatever for themselves. Hell, some posters on this very forum have reacted that way.
The thing that's getting me now is that with LilithThrall's addition, there's a lot of parallel thinking along the lines of alternate approaches to enhancing unarmed strike. On the one hand that makes me hopeful that something like that might actually be in Ultimate Combat, but on the other it has me really wondering why it hasn't happened already.
It's just called brass knuckles... what prevents reflavouring to wrappings or bangles really? Mechanically it's really just about the damage, price, weight and slot taken.I'm just going throw this out there again because it made a lot of sense. I know official is often very nice but the game encourages people to be creative.Provided the GM even allows it. :(
Some look at players seeking flavor beyond what's stated in the rules and automatically peg them as trying to worm an extra +1 or whatever for themselves. Hell, some posters on this very forum have reacted that way.
Actually there is a precedent for that like the bestiary telling us to represent animal X you can really use Y and sometimes just exchanges feat or something like that.
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Actually there is a precedent for that like the bestiary telling us to represent animal X you can really use Y and sometimes just exchanges feat or something like that.Well it offers a last-ditch argument at the very least. Here's hoping it takes.
The cost for the amulet of mighty fists seem pretty right on. It's an attempt to give the monk the ability to work off of the two weapon fighting build without saying that he swings with his left and right arm seperately or whatever and actually considers it being a kick, punch, whatever. As an example the cost is "(1 + 1.5) x bonus squared x 2000" for the amulet of mighty fists. It's totally appropriate for the GM to say, this is how it is, but working with the GM always seems the best course to me. Will it get abused? Maybe. And if it starts to be disruptive and the monk suddenly becomes a one man death machine, then you may find yourself waking up naked in a cell wondering where your +2 axiomatic fire burst brass knuckles are.
If you want to sway your GM a bit more, than you can try this:
The wrappings instead of the knuckles could be rather disadvantageous. They will have more HP probably, as they are as an object one size category larger (personal guess), but aside from that they’ll have lower hardness (cloth) so their only saving grace in sunder department would be that you’d need a weapon of the same bonus or larger to damage them. if tthey’d be also wrapped around the body so that their bonus applies to all limbs they’d prevent two different wrappings from being wielded.
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Call it a Tekko and the flavor is all kept. Originated in Okinawa, Japan, it is used by some martial artists.
First of all, this. There is no reason brass knuckles have to be considered not part of a monk's flavor because there is a precedent for martial artists using them. That's a player choice, akin to, "Well, MY fighter will never use axes because he comes from an axe-hating culture," even if someone hands him a +5 Axe of Diablo Slaying.
Secondly: the reason why brass knuckles are desirable is you can enchant them before you can afford an amulet of mighty fists, and you can make them of different magical materials to bypass DR. Okay.
So: use them when you need to bypass damage reduction, and use your unarmed for everything else (you can still equip them as the monk can use his whole body--elbows, knees, feet, head, etc.--to unarmed strike). (If enhancements aren't a major issue, or otherwise you hopefully have an amulet of mighty fists.)
Also, as someone noted, the larger damage dice are only so helpful. Monks deal damage by volume of attacks, not how hard an individual attack strikes, and they're not massive damage dealers anyway, so ultimately if you don't like brass knuckles and feel uncomfortable reflavoring them as tekko, reinforced wrappings, rings, special martial arts gauntlets, etc. then just use another weapon, accept that you've got smaller damage dice (but also take advantage of the other features the weapon may have, like a better crit range or trip or disarm features, etc.).
Finally: If a contemporary mercenary has to load a gun with silver bullets to hurt a werewolf, does that hurt the mercenary's "flavor"? Or is it the mercenary adapting to fantastical circumstances we don't necessarily associate with them, but those fantastical circumstances exist for the world we've chosen to play that character in? "Monk flavor" tends to come from stories where maybe there are fewer creatures that need special materials to bypass their defenses. But if you choose to play in a world where you need special materials to bypass certain defenses, does it "ruin" a character to go along with the world you're playing in and get him the equipment he needs? After all, if a monk has grown up in a world where some creatures can't be beaten by certain means, he will probably train to learn these weaknesses. Alternately, perhaps the monk doesn't belong with his flavor in worlds like that--and that's something the players and GM have to decide for the setting they are playing in.
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Honestly the DR doesn't bother me that much, especially since I really wish flavorful DRs got played up a bit more(so that the silver bullet doesn't get trumped by just plain old magic for example).
Enhancements I'd want mostly for flavor, so that Holy Flaming Fists and Feet of Fury dude can work.
If you want to sway your GM a bit more, than you can try this:
The wrappings instead of the knuckles could be rather disadvantageous. They will have more HP probably, as they are as an object one size category larger (personal guess), but aside from that they’ll have lower hardness (cloth) so their only saving grace in sunder department would be that you’d need a weapon of the same bonus or larger to damage them. if tthey’d be also wrapped around the body so that their bonus applies to all limbs they’d prevent two different wrappings from being wielded.
Hell, I'd be happy with that. A little extra risk is worth having the character feel the way you want it, IMO. :)
Provided said wrapping only had to cover so much of the body rather than going the mummy route. If it could go on the hands/wrists and fett/ankles and infuse the entire body through key points of ki flow or whatever, aces.
For what it's worth, Secret Training is a brilliant idea, and I'll be adding this to my game's house rules this week for my players.
Actually if you look at Ember, the monk from 3rd edition Player's handbook you can see what the wrappings could look like.
As for monks, I think it was in Evolved Arcana that Monte Cook outright said monks could have their "natural attack" enchanted as if it were a weapon. That always seemed one of the best solutions to me, alongside letting monks do "monk damage" with all monk weapons rather then just "unarmed damage."
Well, to me this ends the discussion, since RAW state that monk weapons are treated as both manufactured and natural weapons. Technically, it was already RAW to be able to enchant your fists, elbows knees and toes, knees and toes....
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As for monks, I think it was in Evolved Arcana that Monte Cook outright said monks could have their "natural attack" enchanted as if it were a weapon. That always seemed one of the best solutions to me, alongside letting monks do "monk damage" with all monk weapons rather then just "unarmed damage."Well, to me this ends the discussion, since RAW state that monk weapons are treated as both manufactured and natural weapons. Technically, it was already RAW to be able to enchant your fists, elbows knees and toes, knees and toes....
RAW natural weapons aren't masterwork, so they cant be enchanted
They can be enchanted at level 2 when they become +1 weapons.
I'm inferring that the monk's BAB directly improves his unarmed strike, which isn't much of a stretch since the unarmed damage goes up with level as it is (which doesn't happen for any other class). The BAB can be inferred as an enchantment, for the monk.