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My view on this discussion of monsters and feats...
The CR of a monster is an estimation, a guide if you you like, on the difficulty of said monster. There are guidelines you can follow when assigning a monster a CR, but it is in many ways just an estimation.
When you change anything on the monster - including feats - you need to decide if that has changed the monsters power enough to require you to re-evaluate it's CR. This doesn't just work when changing feats to be more powerful, but also changing them to be less so.
For example I might have a CR10 creature with power attack, weapon focus, and other combat focused feats. For whatever reason (perhaps it it has been domesticated by an evil wizard) I don't want it to have all those to I change some of them to skill focuses and manoeuvring feats.
I then have to asses this new monster. Has it been affected enough to warrant a lower CR? I most cases maybe not, but sometimes it will require a change.
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The Monk is really good at harrying Arcane spell casters.
With the right feats and tactics, yes.
The Monk's secondary role is skill monkey, but clearly the Rogue and Bard are far superior.
Are you serious? Int is a monk dump stat. They get enough skill points to keep acrobatics, perception and one or two other key skills maxed. They are skill monkeys.
A tertiary role for the Monk is damage dealer, but high AC just isn't enough for a Monk to stand toe to toe with most monsters.
This should not be a tertiary role. A well built monk has this as a secondary or primary role. Most decent monk's are strength focused- letting them crank out damage while also being maneuver viable.
Additionally, the Monk has difficulty defeating DR without gifts from the GM (Amulet of Mighty Fists). Sure, other classes need magical items too, but they generally can get by with any number of options, including the Monk options. The monk is limited to Monk weapons and the AoMF.
By difficulty, you mean inbuilt bonuses to get past DR with no equipment? But yes, special materials are a problem. And the reason why any monk that wants to do damage at mid-high levels will carry some cheap cold iron, silver etc. weapons to bypass it. Or post-APG, enchant brass knuckles to do exactly what other martial classes do at the same cost.
Since this has come up again, how did the monk in that first example spend a ki point as an immediate to make the fighter miss? Is it a feat or something?
I noticed several people ask this, I do t know why the fight was phrased like that. basically the monk should have done things like this.
move to position, swift action ki dodge. readied action trip the fighter when he comes I to range.
fighter charges, monks readied action goes off. fighter is tripped. fighters attack at end of charge goes off. fighter likely misses due to just having an 8 pt effective shift to monks ac ( ki dodge and prone)
round 1 ends
round 2' monk disarms prone fighter while doing flurry. at this point the fighter is the monks play thing to do as he pleased. until he stands his cmd is 4 lower. he can be beaten to death grappled or whatever.
our game has a drunken monk ki tripper as I've mentioned earlier I'n the thread.. he's doing a good job re positioning bad guys for the rogue to flank and I pity the poor and guy standing next to a cliff. but he hasn't grasped the system mastery yet so sometimes gets caught In place or gets his positioning wrong.
but that's a new player learning curve.
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Your definition of a well built Monk is just a crappy Fighter with a lower AC. They'll keep up for two or three rounds, and then lie bleeding out on the floor while the Fighter is still swinging away. I've seen Treantmonk's guide for the STR Monk -- it's rather fragile.
Oh dear... This will be too much work to respond to...
But thanks I did mean they are NOT. Damn typos.
Since this has come up again, how did the monk in that first example spend a ki point as an immediate to make the fighter miss? Is it a feat or something?I also showed how that Monk has about an 8 in 10 chance of taking out a fighter one level higher with typical kit for the fighter. The fighter pretty much has to crit with the first shot, or play very differently.
Fighters excel at dishing damage. Monks aren't as good at dishing damage, but are better at a wide array of other things.
A monk standing toe to toe with a fighter, trading Flurry of Blows for Full Attacks? He better be getting healing when the other guy ain't.
A monk who decides the fighter is less dangerous when A) pinned or B) disarmed has a good chance of putting those conditions out.
Monk successfully grapples Fighter, Fighter dies. It may take about 7-8 rounds, but the outcome only becomes doubtful when the fighter's friends go and try and save him.
No, it was an error - my post on it seems to have gotten eaten. Honestly, I think "ki for AC" as an immediate action is very thematic; I'm not seeing how it'd be a balance issue and may adopt it as a table rule.
I'd just burn the Ki on the approach when I ended in charging distance from the fighter.
MojoRat's suggestion for tripping also works, but my Monk build does not actually have Improved Trip at 7th level.
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SAMPLE MONK CR 1/2
Male Human (Garundi) Monk (Monk of the Four Winds, Ki Mystic) 1
LN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +6
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DEFENSE
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AC 15, touch 15, flat-footed 12. . (+2 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 11 (1d8+2)
Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +4
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee Heirloom Brass Knuckles +6 (1d6+4/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +4 (1d6+4/20/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows -1/-1
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STATISTICS
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Str 19, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +0; CMB +4 (+6 Grappling); CMD 19 (21 vs. Grapple)
Feats Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Elemental Fist (1d6) (1/day), Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies
Traits Heirloom Weapon: Unarmed Strike, Heirloom Brass Knuckles, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +6, Perception +6, Stealth +6
Languages Common, Osiriani
SQ AC Bonus +2, Unarmed Strike (1d6)
Combat Gear Heirloom Brass Knuckles;
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Elemental Fist (1d6) (1/day) - 0/1
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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AC Bonus +2 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Deflect Arrows Deflect an incoming arrow once per round.
Elemental Fist (1d6) (1/day) You can add 1d6 energy damage to an attack.
Flurry of Blows -1/-1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
SAMPLE FIGHTER CR 1/2
Male Human (Chelaxian) Fighter (Two-Handed Fighter) 1
NN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +3
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DEFENSE
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AC 15, touch 10, flat-footed 15. . (+5 armor)
hp 13 (1d10+2)
Fort +4, Ref +0, Will +2
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee Gauntlet (from Armor) +5 (1d3+7/20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Falchion +8 (2d4+10/18-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +5 (1d3+7/20/x2)
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STATISTICS
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Str 20, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +6; CMD 16
Feats Cleave, Power Attack -1/+2, Weapon Focus: Falchion
Traits Heirloom Weapon: Falchion, Masterwork Falchion, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics -4, Climb +1, Escape Artist -4, Fly -4, Perception +3, Ride -4, Stealth -4, Survival +6, Swim +1
Languages Common
Combat Gear Masterwork Falchion, Scale Mail;
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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. . -none-
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Cleave If you hit your first target, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus in exchange for -2 AC.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
People wanted stat blocks. Two quick builds on Herolab, both with int and charisma dump statted for fairness. The fighter clearly emphasises two handed weapons, while the monk favors brass knuckles and wrestling. The monk is a four winds monk. I'm not trying to pitch them AGAINST each other here, just want a quick comparison.
Offence-
The fighter obviously wins out on damage on a single hit. Hes built to deliver massive, crippling blows. Attack roll two points higher than a monk, and damage of 12-13 on a hit as opposed to the monks average of 7-8; which is still respectable. Early access to power attack, weapon focus helps him as does a higher base damage dice/BAB; but that damage dice ain't going to get bigger in time. The monk's will. The monk can boost his damage by another 3-4 points to 10-11 points using his elemental fist (which again will scale), only a little below what the fighter puts out. If a full attack is possible, the fighter enjoys no benefit while the monk can make two attacks at +5/+5 as opposed to the fighters at +8. Two chances to hit at a decent attack bonus, average damage higher than the fighters if both land. I'm not going to run DPR on these but your welcome to, I just don't have the extra time for it.
Advantage goes to Fighter (were we expecting any different???) but the monk's still pretty respectable and he can instead attack CMD to grapple foes at +6. He hasn't yet got maneuver training but he can still grapple the full BAB fighter on a 10 or higher, rendering his falchion useless. He can grapple an archer or ranged combatant to limit their options or eat up actions. He can grapple a spellcaster, forcing a concentration check at DC17 assuming a first level spell. This is as hard as defensive casting, assuming they can even access their material components (and the monks grapple will be full BAB at 3rd level). And the caster had better hope the spell disables the monk, because if not the monk will likely pin him next round with a nice +5 bonus to pull it off- +11 total vs CMD's of approximately 10-13 (assuming 0 or negative strength on a wizard and +2 or +3 dex); practically an autopass that ends that threat.
Also worth noting, the monk has +2 more on initiative than the fighter does. MAD helps with that as the fighter wants the extra hp from con and will save bonus from wisdom and to get his vaunted 20 strength he couldn't afford to raise dex.
The higher mobility over the fighter means the monk will get to attack when the foe is at 60 feet away if he wants. The fighter can only charge 40. How to beat a mid or high level fighter in a solo fight as a mid to high level monk? Move + crossbow harass him. The monk's move won't take long to dwarf the standard full plate wearing fighters charge speed. Higher mobility tends to be highly undervalued as theorycrafters always seem to imagine encounters inside mundane, thirty by thirty feet squares with no features. I've always found uses for high mobility, but perhaps I just run/play more terrain heavy and tactical games than the average player, IDK.
Defence-
Exactly the same AC, but a higher touch AC for rays, splash weapons etc. for the monk. Fighter gets the edge on flat-footed; good for him as he tends to act later. The fighter has to lower his AC to 13 to make a potential two attacks with cleave. The monk can make two without relying on the first one hitting and retains AC15. They are both as likely to be hit by archers, crossbowmen and thrown weapon users- but the monk can casually deflect one of these attacks per round. Against an archer with similar optimisation, the fighter is in serious trouble. The monk enjoys great protection from such foes.
Saving throws. The fighter can only match the monks fortitude save. Hes more likely to take damage from reflex effects and hes more likely to succumb to enchantment, fear, and any other will effect.
CMD- The monk's already pulled ahead here by three points, without full BAB. At some point he'll take defensive combat training, so hes treated at full BAB. His three stats contributing to it and untyped AC bonuses as he levels will mean he can achieve higher CMD than any other class.
HP- The fighter enjoys a 2HP advantage. Assuming average rolls he'll enjoy another 19HP slowly widening the gap to 20th level.
Advantage- Monk. This advantage will get clearer and clearer as levels progress, in terms of both saving throws and AC. When the fighter is buying his belt of giant strength +4, the monk will buy a perfection +2 and get +2AC, +1 to two saves, +2 to CMD in addition to the benefits derived from strength.
Skills-
Neither have many skill points to splash around, but at least the monk can max acrobatics without massive ACP. He can potentially negate an AOO that the fighter will have to eat (easily making up the difference in their HP as well as the fighter having a greater chance to be affected by abilities such as grab).
Both have max ranks in perception, but the monk has a much better score. He was also able to max three skills while the fighter could only max two from his poor list. If climbing, swimming, being stealthy or pretty much any physical skill check is required, the monk can step up if he must. The fighter has little chance.
Advantage- Monk, by miles.
Summary-
The HP difference between a fighter and monk is pretty negligible, and the monk is able to deny more hits and effects on himself of all natures via high ac, deflect arrows, higher saving throws, higher touch
ac, higher CMD, higher initiative... His defences are equal to or superior all round except for HP. This does matter; especially against enchantment. Dominated fighters are terrifying for fellow party members, while the monk has a better will save and a bonus vs enchantments by 3rd level. Sleeping fighters are useless. So are dying fighters, incidentally.
BAB + 0 really hurts as it denies the monk a lot of feats he wants at first level. But his offense is perfectly respectable, able to add more elemental damage dice (not just tied to one element- the monk can choose) that scale with level, as do their amount of uses. In a full attack, the monk has an advantage. On a move + attack or a charge, the fighter has advantage. This is good. Fighters pile out the damage. Monks can make a single attack that deals good damage or they can grapple to deny an enemy options/pin them next round. At the very least, the monks enemy will have to spend an action to not be grappled- or risk an easy pin next round.
If your dismissing the monk as a bad class comparing to a fighters DPR, then you've missed the point. With that said, monk DPR can get very high with particular archetypes and they take a few levels to really hit their stride with it.
The monk has a better skill list, and isn't encumbered by armour. He also gets perception as a class skill- plenty more surprise rounds on the fighter. Enjoy your 4 points of higher damage when you don't get to act...
Can you honestly say you don't think the monk above is playable?
(Please no comments on the 7's on int and charisma, I used a standard 20 point buy as this appears to be the standard for comparisons around here. It benefits the fighter too; his defences would be far worse without the extra points.).
The monk needs two high stats; Wis and Dex. In addition, the monk needs agile manuevers and weeapon finesse. That's all. That's not very MAD.
This is an old argument that began in 2010. In the example you gave in that thread (the beholder), it was revealed that your DM either did not know the rules, or was playing softball with you. The float like a butterfly, hit like a butterfly style of monk is still very questionable in terms of viability, especially when compared with the options of other classes.
It's not a question of whether a monk can do something, it is whether they are comparable.
SAMPLE FIGHTER CR 1/2
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STATISTICS
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Str 20, Int 7, Cha 7
Glorious. I christen him Gronk. Gronk the Destroyer.
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Glorious. I christen him Gronk. Gronk the Destroyer.
SAMPLE FIGHTER CR 1/2
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STATISTICS
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Str 20, Int 7, Cha 7
I'll rename him Gronk if i'm forced to repost the two of them at higher levels to show that the monk scales ok (no i'm not doing anything higher than 10th it just takes too much thought for a character im not going to play)...
Incidentally LT the dex/wis monk with no strength doesnt tend to work too well... Poor damage. Its a good one trick pony for maneuvers though (Halfling dex based grapple monks are amusingly effective!).
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Here's a really straightforward question for you - given a monk with high wisdom, high dex, agile manuevers, and weapon finesse, what does he need strength for?
Self-esteem.
Edit: Seriously though, why even bother with weapon finesse? If your dex is pants you won't be putting out enough damage with your successful attacks to really contribute. If your role is simply to survive and set up the big damage dealer I would just take the agile maneuvers.
Edit2: And he needs it for CMB pretty badly unless hes maxing escape artist. Which is feasible, true. Lets hope the monk has the int to squeeze in acro, perception and stealth in too :).
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Because spellcasters are the only thing that attacks saving throws or have effects dependent on them? Oh please. Because in thirteen combats you don't expect CMD to come into play? Or a single ranged weapon? Or a surprise round? Or high initiative strikes? Touch AC's? Hiding foes? Foes using terrain to their advantage or hit and running? In all of these scenarios the monk is better off.
Please consider a full context and variety of scenarios.
Here's a really straightforward question for you - given a monk with high wisdom, high dex, agile manuevers, and weapon finesse, what does he need strength for?
The only thing he needs strength for is if he wants to max out damage. But, if he's got a weapon carrier in his party, the typically more effective strategy is to make the weapon carrier more effective/nerf the enemy through blinding/tripping/disarming/grappling/etc. And, again, this is true regardless of the monk's strength.
If he just wants to do manuevers? He doesn't. Strange trick to choose though. Where does this monk fit into a party?
Standard 4 player party.
Melee tank/damager dealer, Arcane user, Divine user/healer, Skill monkey.
Where does this Agility based monk fit in?
You have 5 players?
Is the monk more useful than a bard? Or perhaps another arcane user or melee'er?
If you want to make the weapon carrier more effective and nerf the enemy, play a bard. They do it much, much better.
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These are all low percentage scenarios. Even when you add them all up, I don't think you're even close to 50% of the total rounds in combat.Because spellcasters are the only thing that attacks saving throws or have effects dependent on them? Oh please. Because in thirteen combats you don't expect CMD to come into play? Or a single ranged weapon? Or a surprise round? Or high initiative strikes? In all of these scenarios the monk is better off.
Please consider a full context and variety of scenarios.
I added a couple more but you think ranged weapons are an low percentage scenario? What?. So basically, your idea of most combats are all melee based warriors with no special abilities, tactics or terrain that move towards the party making melee attacks and waiting to die from attacks? In thirty by thirty feet rooms lets not forget, so the fighters guaranteed an attack as well as the monk...
Alexander Kilcoyne posted an answer to that question,
No, he didn't.
This manuever based monk doesn't fill any role required of a balanced party. In effect you are designating that necessity onto others, while taking an inferior choice in aiding them. It is a selfish choice, and that is fine. Optimisation is not necessary, however, it does highlight 'Why are monks so bad'. If you leave the flavour aside, mechanically they are selfish. All of their abilities serve to help them only. This is even more obvious when you focus on dexterity. All of those manuevers you are talking about are just as doable with a Strength basis, while also having the ability to contribute damage. But by focusing on dexterity, you increase your own defenses, while giving up on damage. Yet another task for the party to cover.|
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What happened to the Fighter's bow? He's still going to outdamage the Monk. And do it more safely.
He couldnt afford a longbow. Scale mail is expensive, as is a falchion. 125GP of 175GP spent. He could afford a light crossbow, or a shortbow. Even if he could afford a longbow, he'd attack at +1 for an average of 4.5 damage. That is not outdamaging this monk in the slightest. Thats a fact.
A more balanced stat array would suit the Fighter much better for this comparison. It's not like he needs that 20 STR and Power Attack to outdamage the monk in melee.
I'm building him according to pretty standard fighter optimisation guidelines- a high crit, two handed weapon approach with 20 strength.
And that WIS isn't doing him much good.
Except shoring up the fighters biggest, most classical weakness- will saves. And giving him half a chance to spot something amiss or sneaking up on him.
Iron Will is also pretty much compulsary within a few levels, but relying on it entirely merely leads me to believe you play in a world where no one uses a ranged weapon and all enemies use melee weapons encountered within 40 feet of the party.
What you've done is build a character that blows the monk away in melee, and then present all these situations where the character you built can't move as fast or whatever. Instead, build a Fighter that expects to be in these situations.
I've shown the fighters better at attacking and dealing damage which really is a fighters bread and butter. Shocking revelation to the community i'm sure.
I'm not exactly representing far out there situations- even at lowest level many monsters have fear auras or saving throw attacks, most sensible warriors pack a ranged weapon (i'll admit not giving him a light xbow was remiss), plenty of monsters or humanoids use ambush/surprise tactics or attack from range, or use terrain to their advantage. As I said in the main post if all your going to say is that 'the fighter outdamages the monk so is better' you've missed the point. And thats the only decent argument you've made- the fighter outdamages the monk. This game would be pretty messed up if he didn't!.
Also, I really don't see 10' move as being particularly significant. When the monk gets higher in level, sure, mobility becomes a factor. At first level? Not really.
Fight starts at 60 feet. The monk can charge. The fighter can't. The problem gets even worse at greater ranges. Trading missile fire? Good think the monk has high move and deflect arrows. The fighter gets to bleed as he makes his approach, slowly.
Someone Posted some sample stats above for 20 pt buy. I played a Monk to lvl 10 using the 14 14 14 10 14 10 before racial model. Were i to have to do the char at 15 pt buy i would do 14 14 12 10 13 10, It would result in 10 less hps and -1 to ac. For the People that I play with this is perfectly Viably.
the 20 pt build at lvl 10 after gear was 18 str 18 dex 14 con 10 int 16 wis 10 cha. Had a unbuffed ac of 27, CMB to trip of around 22 i think and CMD was 36 or Such. Going by memory so, some slight margin for Error.
For the People that I play with This worked out Fine when i didn't have to deal with Flying creatures. when dealing with land bound opponents i could basically move wherever i wanted Used to do 90' jumps across the battlefield to my next opponent clearing ogres.
But this may not work for another game.
This manuever based monk doesn't fill any role required of a balanced party. In effect you are designating that necessity onto others, while taking an inferior choice in aiding them.
I'd qualify that slightly: the maneuver based monk is an extremely feast or famine character. It's sort of like playing a sorcerer that's all charm/domination spells and nothing else. When it has the right opponents, it looks pretty good -- and a lot of the time it's basically useless.
If you've got a party of 6 or 7 PCs, maybe you can afford a character that's useless half the time, and if that doesn't bother you as a player, more power to you.
This manuever based monk doesn't fill any role required of a balanced party. In effect you are designating that necessity onto others, while taking an inferior choice in aiding them.I'd qualify that slightly: the maneuver based monk is an extremely feast or famine character. It's sort of like playing a sorcerer that's all charm/domination spells and nothing else. When it has the right opponents, it looks pretty good -- and a lot of the time it's basically useless.
If you've got a party of 6 or 7 PCs, maybe you can afford a character that's useless half the time, and if that doesn't bother you as a player, more power to you.
Except 9 times out of 10 a maneuver fighter is better because he has reach, can take more feats fast, and only needs to pump 1 stat for maneuvers, to hit, and damage.
I've removed a post. Please post civilly, thanks!
'Larger than large', flying, four legged, constructs armed only with natural weapons and freedom of movement are almost as prolific as deadly puddings in the games I play.
It doesn't always take that. The monk in the game I'm running now frequently runs up against enemies that just flat out have a CMD around 20 higher than his CMB. In one case in our last session it was over 30 higher. That's not immunity, but it might as well be. At no point did he encounter an enemy against which a maneuver could be called effective (e.g., I guess you could grapple or trip one of the monsters that the summoner and rogue are killing two per round each, but... why.)
I'm running an Adventure Path, incidentally. No crazy handcrafted-by-me-to-spite-the-monk encounters.
'Larger than large', flying, four legged, constructs armed only with natural weapons and freedom of movement are almost as prolific as deadly puddings in the games I play.It doesn't always take that. The monk in the game I'm running now frequently runs up against enemies that just flat out have a CMD around 20 higher than his CMB. In one case in our last session it was over 30 higher. That's not immunity, but it might as well be. At no point did he encounter an enemy against which a maneuver could be called effective (e.g., I guess you could grapple or trip one of the monsters that the summoner and rogue are killing two per round each, but... why.)
I'm running an Adventure Path, incidentally. No crazy handcrafted-by-me-to-spite-the-monk encounters.
I'm curious which AP this is. I am trying to figure out which one to run next and I need to be aware of potential issues.
Could you tell me what this monster's CMD is and what your monk player's CMB is?
The monk should have a CMB comparable to the fighter's - likely even higher. For the monsters to regularly have a CMD that much higher, the monk build doesn't seem all that well done.
I could say more if I saw the monk's character sheet.
I don't have the monk's character sheet handy, but his CMB is something like 16 (level 11), a little higher with the maneuvers he has feats for, and the monster in question had a CMD of 43.
I'm sure he could crank that a little higher, but I don't see him cranking it the 8 points higher it would take to be able to grapple or trip the monster on a roll of 19. This is a monster that the rest of the party killed in a single round, mind you.
The monk has had some moments to shine, but as far as combat etc. are concerned, probably less than any other PC in the group.
You really don't know how to build characters do you? Which is probably a major reason why you don't like the monk.
Nice assumption. We can settle this PbP if you want? Now instead of just throwing insults how about not throwing insults. I will also add that it was Lorekeeper who said that touch AC bonus was relevant. I simply showed that if that is the baseline for a high touch AC that the fighter is safe.
Lorekeep Maddigan just called you a noob.
You also take a spell called Greater Heroism or Heroism which gives you a bonus to hit. Toss on that you are most likely going to pick up Weapon Focus (ranged touch spells) and the Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot feats to avoid the -4 from melee. Then you will use a magic item like a Belt of Dexterity +6. Average starting Dex for a halfling sorcerer is 14 to 16. So with a belt we're talking 20 to 22 dex.
You can take weapon focus(rays), not ranged touch spells. Are you sure I am not the one who can't build characters. This is noted in the FAQ in case you need "official" verification. If you don't like that ruling take it up with Mr. Reynolds.
Then you unload your Empowered Elemental Contagious Flame and Empowered Elemental Quickened Scorching Ray (only counts as 1st lvl spell because of Magical Lineage) and destroy the fighter and probably the monk.
Your numbers and understanding of mechanics are extremely weak. You don't even seem to have any idea about combo powers for the casters or the monks.
So my point stands that the monk has nothing on a fighter's touch AC and you have called Lorekeeper a noob again. I also noticed that you never asked me for a build, but are making judgements, and my numbers only reflect what Lorekeeper said. Most good builders are observant. You did not know about the weapon focus rule, nor did you notice that I only built up to Lorekeeper's specs. You are failing here horribly. You might want to ask question next time first to make sure I don't understand things instead of assume I don't know anything.
The monk gives up nothing for a great touch AC. It is an inherent part of the class, whereas a high touch AC requires a very specialized fighter that gives up a substantial amount of damage. As does any class other than the monk that tries to go for an insane touch AC.Why are you not taking into account the substantial drop in damage for a fighter going for touch AC?
Your numbers are very poorly done.
If you can't build a high touch AC fighter and still put up good offense then I have to question your skills now. They seem to be lacking. How about defining substantial for me for the purpose of this exercise also.
All I can say is I speak from experience about the monk. They have no trouble being effective in the campaigns with my group and are in fact one of the more annoying classes as a DM to challenge because they have no real weaknesses to exploit.
So not only do you make baseless accusations, but you can't even challenge a class that most of the community has no issues handling. You might want to start apologizing now.
Your campaigns are obviously different than mine. In my campaigns no one touches the rogue because it is such a poor class in the most important encounters in the game. The rogue is the least desireable and played class amongst my group because they are the weakest combat class. We play very combat focused campaigns and when it comes to combat the rogue is very, very weak. The monk on the other hand is not.
Mine are different, I am sure if you can't deal with a monk. As for the rogue well there are a few guides online that can help you out if you can't make one that can contribute.
Zen Archer monks are a pain.
Something that can be agreed on across the board.
A monk, like any melee class at high level, usually needs a caster to clean off some of the buffs on an enemy....
What about that terrible rogue?
And like any class, you have to focus on some specialty as a monk to be effective. The most powerful focused monks are usually trip specialists and grapplers. Once that Freedom of Movement is cleaned off high level casters, they are grapple meat. Cast a Fly spell on a monk and let him go to work on whatever caster he can lay his hands on. Best caster control in the game and no real defense for it save for one spell. Once you have them wrapped up, they are usually done if you've built your monk grappler right.]
Most of the time the pro-monk advocates say the monk does not need a specialty and that is its strength. You now have an argument with both camps now. Grappling works in humanoid campaigns, but monsters don't get affected by it so much. That also goes for tripping, at higher levels that is. If you think a fly spell is going to get you to a caster then I want an apology. You forgot about that SR issue monks have. Fly is also not a super long duration spell so most likely it will be cast during combat for the purpose of your example. Fly also does not equal access to a caster. If it did I would just give it to the fighter. Almost anyone can grapple a low BAB caster. The problem is getting to them. You said "if you've built your monk right" as if holding them in place was an issue if they did not have freedom of movement up.
You may have players that make weak monks. I don't. So we'll never see eye to eye on this issue. Now if we were talking rogues, we would have a discussion. I have had players try their best to make effective rogues, but they haven't been able to do by the rules. Too damn squishy in the BBEG fights. All it usually takes is one round from the enemy melee or caster and Mr. Rogue is dead. In my experience rogue is the least effective combat class in the game./QUOTE]
A monk can kick a rogue's butt in a straight fight if both are built correctly, but overall a rogue is a better addition to a party, not that they are that great either. My players do make weak monks, but I have always said it takes a good player to make a good monk. You don't need a great player to have a good rogue.This has been your friendly neighborhood Wraithstrike.
Wraithstrike,
Playstyle really isn't a good reason to change a class. For those us running standard by the book Adventure Paths, the monk is as potent as most of the other classes.
I don't want the monk to ever be as potent a damage dealer as a fighter. That makes the fighter obsolete.
And you really have some poorly designed casters if your fighters are easily making the save DCs agains their spells. That +6 bonus a monk gets to Reflex and Will helps them immensely. As does their SR and other nifty defensive abilities.
DCs are reaching 30 plus for spells easily. And fighters can't keep up with those kind of saves. Rogues are even worse since Will and Fort are the best saves to have at high level.
Monks are good class. Not as good as the Inquisitor, but about on par with most classes.
A PC caster or custom made caster can get a DC of 30+, but it is not normal for an AP which is what I am using as the standard.
Yeah that nifty SR that blocks spells that monk could use in the middle of combat.SR=The reason I will never play a drow.
Could you tell me what this monster's CMD is and what your monk player's CMB is?
The monk should have a CMB comparable to the fighter's - likely even higher. For the monsters to regularly have a CMD that much higher, the monk build doesn't seem all that well done.
I could say more if I saw the monk's character sheet.I don't have the monk's character sheet handy, but his CMB is something like 16 (level 11), a little higher with the maneuvers he has feats for, and the monster in question had a CMD of 43.
I'm sure he could crank that a little higher, but I don't see him cranking it the 8 points higher it would take to be able to grapple or trip the monster on a roll of 19. This is a monster that the rest of the party killed in a single round, mind you.
The monk has had some moments to shine, but as far as combat etc. are concerned, probably less than any other PC in the group.
When doing maneuvers that can be done with a weapon is he remembering to add all relevant bonuses from the weapon or buffs to CMB.
My Monk with heirloom Temple sword +2 added +4 to trip attempts then throw in Heroism or bless and your chance is going higher.
Though that CMD is still pretty darn high. im afraid My experience only runs to lvl 10 and we mostly delt with medium sized creatures.
Since you aren't responding to points anymore Lilith you must be in agreement that monks are mechanically selfish, and a dexterity/manuever focus is a frivolous waste of a a potential party member. I'm glad, because I wouldn't want newer players to fall into that trap.
I'd like to state for the thread that some monks are more useful than others, a Four Winds/Sacred Mountain/Drunken master strength based monk can be very useful, as well as the Zen Archer archetype. Even so, I hope that Monks get the APG barbarian treatment in Ultimate Combat.
monks are mechanically selfish
Frivolous answer, but a 5th Level Ki Mystic (lets handwave how he got that high) with every single UM Vow in the book (except Vow of Silence) would be an incredibly party friendly beast.
Massive Ki Pool fueling free attack and save re-rolls for all! ;)
What point buy are you using? I want to create an example 11th level monk.
20 point buy.
Also, what monster was the encounter? The stat block for the monster would be helpful for discussion. A one-on-one combat with an 11th level PC is CR 9. CR 9 critters average a CMD in the lower 30s. You said you're regularly running up against these low 40s critters.
It is...
which, yes, is CR 13, although that's a 3.5 CR 13 and it probably would be more like a 12 in Pathfinder.
And, IMHO looking at what a monk should be able to do in a single combat kind of misses the point. Generally combat is a team effort, and if the monk can't contribute meaningfully against the things that are faced as a team he's subpar as a team member.
Which, for the record, was all I personally was ever trying to assert.
Another rough spot in the same session:
includes a whole herd of various strength fire elementals, including an elder (CMD 46) and I think three greaters (CMD 41). There's also some larges (CMD 34) on down, which he theoretically could maneuver by rolling high, but... only the elder and greaters posed any kind of serious threat to the party. Trippling or grappling one of a half-dozen large fire elementals would have been a lesser contribution than any other party member was making.