Here's the full build on the Monk:
STR 16+2+(2)[10], DEX 14+(2)[5], CON 11+1[1], INT 13[3], WIS 14[4] CHA 7[-4]
Traits: Threatening Defender, Nimble Fingers [Disable Device is class skill and +1, Sleight of Hand is +1]
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike [M], Stunning Fist [M], Dodge [M], Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm [H]; Improved Grapple; Power Attack; Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike; Hamatalatsu [M]; Belier's Bite
Favored Class bonus is +1 HP through level 3, and +1/4 Ki point from levels 4 through 7. Hit points were done doing the PFS method, so are:
11+5+5+7+7+7+7=49 HP. He has 6 ki points.
By comparison the fighter had a 14 CON:
12+8+8+8+8+8+8+8=68 HP. A noticeable advantage.
The monk isn't likely to win a fight where both sides stand still and do a full attack action.
Monk's attacks are hitting at 5+5+1=+11/+11/+6. Add Masterwork Brass Knuckles in there, and they're at +12/+12/+7. Still not great odds, and they get worse if he Power Attacks for damage or uses Combat Expertise.
Fighter is hitting (sans Charge bonus, with Power Attack) at 8+6+1+1+2-3=+15/+10
Each hit by the Monk does 1d8+5 damage. If he hits once, the fighter takes 1d4 bleed damage. Each hit by the fighter does 2d6+20+1d6 fire damage.
In round numbers, it takes 2 hits from the fighter to drop the monk.
In round numbers, it takes 7 hits from the monk to drop the fighter.
This is why the Monk does the disarm-and-run trick...
I honestly can't think of how your imagining this to go, I'd like to hear your version. (I would also like to point out that this completely ignores your FOB, effectively wasting that class feature, this is what we are talking about when we ask for some coherence between abilities)
How you play your monk depends on your party. Looking at how other classes view you.
- Barbarians, Fighters, Rogues and Paladins all love having a flanking buddy who has enough movement to run around to the position that needs to be flanked. They also like that sometimes you stun the baddie so he doesn't get a full attack against you.
- Wizards and Sorcerers love you because your movement means you can move into positions to protect them from baddies. They fear you because you have a fort based attack and all good saves.
- Clerics and Oracles like having someone who can go retrieve the body, and can heal themselves a little for a change while they are taking care of everyone else, and doesn't soak restoration spells for diseases and poisons all the time.
- Bard and Monks are like peas and carrots, since everyone loves buffs. But bards are pretty much peas and carrots with everyone, aren't they?
The monk two step is move in and try to stun on the first attack, preferably in flanking positions. If you succeed, you get a full flurry next round, which will also include a stun. If not, you moved in and did damage...just like every other class that does melee attacks...
If you get hurt, you have the mobility to escape. You are immune to many special attacks and have high saves against the rest.
If you don't see this being useful in your group, I don't know what to tell you.
Literally everything here could be done by any class. You didn't use any monk abilities other then "they don't get hit by disease/poison" which isn't even a monk-only ability.
You want to know why we're harsh on monks? Because the best way to play a monk is apparently to play a commoner.
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Actually I hope that UC doesn't "fix" the monk. I don't want to see people play the class that suddenly see the light because AwesomeFeatureX has been published.
It doesn't have to be AwesomeFeatureX.
It could just be something that makes monks easier to create under 15-point buy and doesn't force optimization so much. That would be one HELL of a strike against monk frustration right there.
Personally I'd really like to see Good-aligned/flavored options made available to pure monks too, considering that we don't have any that I've seen yet. Got evil ones though!
o man, look what i started... lol
Also, question, do/would you allow a Monk to wear Bracers of Armor?
o man, look what i started... lol
Also, question, do/would you allow a Monk to wear Bracers of Armor?
Yes. And the Iconic monk wears them in the rules and pre-generated characters.
Likewise, Monks can benefit from someone else casting Mage Armor on them.
It is almost worth a 1 level dip into Wizard for a 12 INT Monk, just to pick up the ability to cast first level spells (shield being the major one.)
o man, look what i started... lol
Also, question, do/would you allow a Monk to wear Bracers of Armor?
Yes. And the Iconic monk wears them in the rules and pre-generated characters.
Likewise, Monks can benefit from someone else casting Mage Armor on them.
It is almost worth a 1 level dip into Wizard for a 12 INT Monk, just to pick up the ability to cast first level spells (shield being the major one.)
You only need an 11 intellegence to cast 1st level spells. I've done that with a monk, only I picked sorcerer; mage armor and shield, that's all I needed to get the best AC in the group. Combined with the practiced spell-caster feat from 3.5, and the mage armor lasted up to five hours.
OK, rules question- how many points of ki can you spend a round?
In otherwords, does it take your single swift action to spend one point of ki, or does it take your single swift action per round to spend X amount of ki to add more attacks, dodge bonus, speed?My GM has ruled that a monk can spend all of his ki in one flurry round to add that many attacks that round.
1 Swift on your turn, i ki point per swift
(what i allow though is spending more than 1 point to use on a different ability)
They are the jack of no trades.
I think you just coined a new phrase for the monk, and the bad thing is it holds some truth.
Monk rolls his Disarm with his Sai, but has one hand free.Fighter's CMD is 10+8+6+2+1+1-2=25 (10+8 BAB, 6 STR, 2 DEX, 1 for Weapon Training, 1 for +1 on sword, 1 for Deflection bonus to AC, -2 for a charge)
Monk's CMB is 7+5+2+2-2=+14 (7 Monk levels due to Combat Maneuvers, +5 for STR, +2 for Improved Disarm, +2 for Sai, -2 for Combat Expertise). Monk rolls a 12. Monk now has physical possession of the flaming greatsword, since he has a hand free.
False: If you successfully disarm your opponent without using a weapon, you may automatically pick up the item dropped.
A sai is a weapon, therefore you don't get it in your free hand.
3.5 let you get it in a free hand, but not pathfinder (rules changed).
No hard numbers here but a bit of anecdotal info. I rolled up a level 10 monk in a 3.0 game years ago. I was paranoid about not being able to use armor or a shield so I focused on Dex and Wis and most of his starting wealth went to AC boosters. He fared well against drow warriors who liked launching night raids against his town. On the other hand, he felt pretty useless squaring off against a dragon (the monk could only hit it on a nineteen or twenty, I think). My takeaway from those events was that a human monk does well against similarly sized opponents. Against larger monsters with high BAB, he has a high likelihood of being shredded without spellcaster support (miss chance, etc).
I'm tempted to roll up a monk for the Pathfinder game I'm in. It's low level (2nd) and not terribly optimized. There's a zen archer/wizard but he *doesn't* have gravity bow. But with lessons learned, a regular monk should be able to keep up to at least mid levels.
Here is a Koan:
8th level Fighter in plate moves 30' for a single move. Using +2 flaming greatsword. Fighter's AC was 10+9+2+1+1+1=24 (9 armor, 2 Dex (armor training raised the limit), 1 each from deflection, nat armor and +1 enhancement on the armor.)
Monk's standard action is a Disarm. Fighter is very surprised, because Monks never take Improved Disarm, because it requires an INT of 13. Who ever heard of a Monk with an INT of 13? Is that allowed? Aren't all Monks built with INT of 7 and CHA of 7?
Fighter's CMD is 10+8+6+2+1+1-2=25 (10+8 BAB, 6 STR, 2 DEX, 1 for Weapon Training, 1 for +1 on sword, 1 for Deflection bonus to AC, -2 for a charge)
Well, that seems a very reasonable Fighter build and CMD vs Disarm, if you are not using optional material in the APG. Most races in the APG give Fighter the favored class option of getting +1 to CMD vs Disarm and/or Sunder, and I generally recommend they take it for this very reason, rather than one more Skill Point or Hit Point per level. Fighters put so much effort into mastering one or two weapons that a successful Sunder or Disarm leaves them in this very situation.
Monk rolls his Disarm with his Sai, but has one hand free.Fighter's CMD is 10+8+6+2+1+1-2=25 (10+8 BAB, 6 STR, 2 DEX, 1 for Weapon Training, 1 for +1 on sword, 1 for Deflection bonus to AC, -2 for a charge)
Monk's CMB is 7+5+2+2-2=+14 (7 Monk levels due to Combat Maneuvers, +5 for STR, +2 for Improved Disarm, +2 for Sai, -2 for Combat Expertise). Monk rolls a 12. Monk now has physical possession of the flaming greatsword, since he has a hand free.
False: If you successfully disarm your opponent without using a weapon, you may automatically pick up the item dropped.
A sai is a weapon, therefore you don't get it in your free hand.
3.5 let you get it in a free hand, but not pathfinder (rules changed).
Good catch. However, using the Monk build above, and not using the Sai, the net bonus becomes:
7+5+2+1-1=+14 (Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike adds to the CMB check.)
It's the ability to take someone's weapon away (rather than force a drop) that makes the Disarm trick entertaining.
the thing is I'n the little monk fighter example the monk used the wrong tactics.
he should have first round done swift action dodge then fulll defense. fighter is unlikely to hit him. then on his turn trip the fighter, then when the fighter is prone disarm him and take his weapon. charge + prone is basically -6 to the fighters cmd at this point the monk can do anything he wants to him.
this won't dork e every time but tactical use of combat maneuvers + party buffs monks can be great.
as I said I'n my previous post I used to agree with all the monk disparaging then I played one.
though a magic heirloom weapon adept monk with a sai focused on disarming would be pretty nifty. anyone with a weapon will loose it pretty quickly.
I don't remember all of the particulars on that Monk vs Fighter fight; it was last summer at a con. I do know that it was a case where the fighter was built such that he wouldn't retreat from a melee challenge, but would back up (and call on the BBEG and minions) if faced with a large group.
And the party (other than the Monk, who'd barely used any ki) was low on resources.
It was one of those somewhat contrived con scenarios designed to give each member of the party a challenging one-on-one fight, to avoid the "OK, party of 5 PCs trash a scenario..." problem.
I've DMed multiple monks because a player in my group enjoys them. They are rarely weak. They aren't the greatest damage dealers, but they do enough. They are much more difficult to challenge because of their saves and defensive abilities. If built around combat maneuvers, they become an even stronger group member.
I imagine they don't appeal to the power gamer type that likes to do tons of damage or have a massive effect on the combat wtih a single powerful spell. But they are far from weak or underpowered. They do require more thought to play well than most classes. I imagine many players don't have the patience to play a moderate damage class that relies more on combat maneuvers than a big damage dealer.
You and a lot of other people seem to not understand something. People don't say that monks are bad because they are filthy power gamers intent on getting the most plusses. People say the monk is bad because it is literally worse than other options 100% of the time, and at the same time do not bring anything unique to the table. None of their mechanics that are interesting cannot be replicated by something else. The only this that they really have is unarmored AC bonus without items and that's just a number and doesn't actually open up roleplaying opportunities. If I wanted a good non-magical combat manuever specialist I'd take a fight, ranger, or barbarian. If I wanted an unarmed combatant resistant to spells I'd take improved unarmed strike as a paladin. If I wanted to run fast I'd play a barbarian or cavalier with charge based abilities.*
*note this is core only monk that I am talking about.
I run a lvl 18 and lvl 11 group with a monk and many of the other classes you listed. I can tell you where the monk has a serious advantage.
1. Monk vs. Fighter: Saves. This is huge as you get higher level, especially with a wisdom focused monk. Will spells are vicious at higher levels. A fighter often ends up missing every save against any will-based effect.
Touch AC. A fighter gets hit by every touch attack. A monk not so much. When fighting undead that drain levels or ray attacks. This is a huge advantage. Fighter is getting destroyed by enervates, monk is avoiding them. He uses the monk ki bonus to AC for dodge effectively.
Full Power attack on all attacks: Monks can get buffed too. You buff them up and they get nice magic items. They do full power attack damage. My monk lover knows how to optimize his character, so he usually takes 4 levels of a full BAB class (usually a fighter for specialization) and then gets a monk robe to make up for that last little bit of unarmed damage and AC. This gives him +16 BAB base for a -5/+10 to all damage power attack on all attacks. With up to 8 attacks a round, that is 80 extra damage from Power Attack versus say a fighter two-handered (96 points power attack) and two-weapon guy (84 points from power attack).
2. Monks vs Barbarians: As above except far better advantage for Power Attack and AC.
3. Paladins: When a Paladin is fighting evil, not much can match them.
But for creatures that aren't evil, monk is often on par or very superior offensively to a paladin.
No one can match the paladin for saves though. Since Reflex saves are the least dangerous in the game, paladins easily win this contest.
Touch AC. Same as fighters. People seem to underestimate having a great touch AC at high level when an empowered enervate or energy drain preceded by a quickened dispel magic (death ward) or quickened enervate can pretty much make you close to dead in one round.
4. Rogue: Monks are by far superior to rogues. The worst melee class to play at high level.
5. Inquisitor: Inquisitor is far superior to the monk. Then again the Inquisitor is probably the best class in the game at the moment. I have never played a class as versatile, powerful in all areas, and beastly as the Inquisitor.
Some fell in love with this class and gave it the royal treatment. I can think of no better designed class in the game. As far as min-maxing goes, every group should have an Inquisitor with them. Beastly class that outshines every support class. Can fill any role from damage dealer to healer to support guy.
Love this class. I would shake the hand of the designer of the Inquisitor class. He set out to make a class that was cool conceptually, fun to play, and powerful and threw a dead center bullseye with this class.
6. Ranger: Monk and ranger are similar offensively with the ranger taking an advantage when fighting favored enemies, the monk taking advantage otherwise.
Touch AC weak like all other melees.
As a DM I find the monk to be a very potent class that does well at high levels. The monk does have a tough time at low levels say about 1st to 8th or so. Which may be why so many people think they're weak since most campaigns don't go too much past those levels.
But you get to those high levels loaded up with belts and headbands, and they start to do well. No class get as much of a positive boost from stats as monks do. As their iterative attacks rise, their damage output increases. Now that you can get Brass Knuckles and Weapon Enchantments on the Amulet of Mighty Fists, they can do some serious bashing.
Now the only thing I'll give you monks is that they take longer to get good. And they require more magic items to maximize their abilities. Give a fighter a Belt of Str and a good weapon, he'll do tons of damage. But a monk needs a multi-stat belt and a fairly tricked out Amulet of Mighty Fists or Brass Knuckles to hammer. Both of those take longer to get. But once you get them, you start to shine. And with your superior defensive abilties, you give a DM a harder challenge than for classes like fighters, barbs, and the like.
@AdAstraGames:
Is there some trick that monks can get their +4 dodge AC as an immediate action? I thought its swift-action only.
I run a lvl 18 and lvl 11 group with a monk and many of the other classes you listed. I can tell you where the monk has a serious advantage.
1. Monk vs. Fighter: Saves. This is huge as you get higher level, especially with a wisdom focused monk. Will spells are vicious at higher levels. A fighter often ends up missing every save against any will-based effect.
Touch AC. A fighter gets hit by every touch attack. A monk not so much. When fighting undead that drain levels or ray attacks. This is a huge advantage. Fighter is getting destroyed by enervates, monk is avoiding them. He uses the monk ki bonus to AC for dodge effectively.
Full Power attack on all attacks: Monks can get buffed too. You buff them up and they get nice magic items. They do full power attack damage. My monk lover knows how to optimize his character, so he usually takes 4 levels of a full BAB class (usually a fighter for specialization) and then gets a monk robe to make up for that last little bit of unarmed damage and AC. This gives him +16 BAB base for a -5/+10 to all damage power attack on all attacks. With up to 8 attacks a round, that is 80 extra damage from Power Attack versus say a fighter two-handered (96 points power attack) and two-weapon guy (84 points from power attack).
A fighter can get decent will saves. Most players just aren't willing to go through the trouble to make it happen.
They can also get decent touch AC. It might mean a dip into stalwart defender, but if the monk can dip into a full BAB class then a fighter can dip also.As far as your power attack numbers that is not how it works. DPR is a determined using a formula that has to take into account the target AC, and the total attack bonus of the competing classes. You can't just assume every attack will hit because they won't.
Barbarians don't really get any love either, unless you include the APG. Now that I think about it the Stalwart Defender is an APG thing and I think this conversation is core only so the fighter has to give up the touch AC, but that is ok. Other than enervation and its evil cousin which is taken care of with death ward there are not a lot of damaging ranged touched attacks anyway, and if something is in melee range with a fighter then the fighter is happy anyway.
3. Paladins: When a Paladin is fighting evil, not much can match them.
But for creatures that aren't evil, monk is often on par or very superior offensively to a paladin.
No one can match the paladin for saves though. Since Reflex saves are the least dangerous in the game, paladins easily win this contest.
Touch AC. Same as fighters. People seem to underestimate having a great touch AC at high level when an empowered enervate or energy drain preceded by a quickened dispel magic (death ward) or quickened enervate can pretty much make you close to dead in one round.
Paladins smites are annoying, but the mercies, spells, and lay on hands are also every effective.
4. Rogue: Monks are by far superior to rogues. The worst melee class to play at high level.
Some people disagree. Even high level games require skill checks, and rogues put out decent damage.
5. Inquisitor: Inquisitor is far superior to the monk. Then again the Inquisitor is probably the best class in the game at the moment. I have never played a class as versatile, powerful in all areas, and beastly as the Inquisitor.
Some fell in love with this class and gave it the royal treatment. I can think of no better designed class in the game. As far as min-maxing goes, every group should have an Inquisitor with them. Beastly class that outshines every support class. Can fill any role from damage dealer to healer to support guy.
Love this class. I would shake the hand of the designer of the Inquisitor class. He set out to make a class that was cool conceptually, fun to play, and powerful and threw a dead center bullseye with this class.
The Inquisitor is nice, but it is not the best class. It is not even the best melee class. It can fill a variety of roles similar to the paladin, so I would say they are about equal with the paladin being better at combat, and the inquisitor having an edge in other areas.
6. Ranger: Monk and ranger are similar offensively with the ranger taking an advantage when fighting favored enemies, the monk taking advantage otherwise.
Touch AC weak like all other melees.
As a DM I find the monk to be a very potent class that does well at high levels. The monk does have a tough time at low levels say about 1st to 8th or so. Which may be why so many people think they're weak since most campaigns don't go too much past those levels.
Rangers also have more useful skills, and an animal companion. I think an archery based ranger is better than a monk in combat. Edge:Ranger
.......And with your superior defensive abilties, you give a DM a harder challenge than for classes like fighters, barbs, and the like.
I doubt a monk will give a GM a harder time. If the fighter is not built to cover its weaknesses then maybe, but that is a player issue, not a fighter issue. Maybe the barbarian will not challenge a GM much, but the other classes named can be headaches.
- masterwork fullplate
- +1 heavy shield
- 14 Dex
- Dodge feat
- Shield Focus feat
level 6 AC 28; touch 14; flat 25
- +1 fullplate
- +1 heavy shield
- 14 Dex
- dodge feat
- shield focus feat
- +1 amulet of natural armor
- +1 ring of protection
level 9 AC 32; touch 15; flat 28
- +3 fullplate
- +2 heavy shield
- 16 Dex (+2 dex belt)
- dodge feat
- shield focus feat
- +1 amulet of natural armor
- +1 ring of protection
level 16 AC 36; touch 19; flat 31
- +4 fullplate
- +4 heavy shield
- 18 Dex (+4 dex belt)
- dodge feat
- shield focus feat
- greater shield focus feat
- +3 amulet of natural armor
- +3 ring of protection
- dusty rose prism ioun stone
level 4 AC 23; touch 17; flat 20
- potion of mage armor
- ki power barkskin
- 14 Dex
- 16 Wis
- monk levels: +1 AC
- dodge feat
level 6 AC 30; touch 19; flat 27
- potion of mage armor 4 + 3 + 2+ 4+ 1 + 1+ 1+ 4
- ki power barkskin
- 14 Dex
- 18 Wis (+2 wis headband)
- monk levels: +1 AC
- dodge feat
- +1 ring of protection
- shield of swings feat (quarterstaff)
level 9 AC 33; touch 22; flat 29
- potion of mage armor
- ki power barkskin
- 16 Dex (+2 dex belt)
- 18 Wis (+2 wis headband)
- monk levels: +2 AC
- dodge feat
- +2 ring of protection
- shield of swings feat (quarterstaff)
level 16 AC 46; touch 29; flat 41
- +8 bracers of armor
- ki power barkskin
- 18 Dex (+4 dex belt)
- 20 Wis (+4 wis headband)
- monk levels: +4 AC
- dodge feat
- +3 ring of protection
- monk's robe
- dusty ruse prism ioun stone
- shield of swings feat (quarterstaff)
level 4 AC 26; touch 13; flat 23
The monk keeps up well with a fighter's AC at very early levels - and if going the shield-of-swings route overtakes the fighter by level 6. Even without that feat (and assuming the fighter uses combat expertise) the monk still beats the fighter's AC without extra effort. Note also that the fighter's touch AC at level 16 is the same as the monk's touch AC at level 6. Remember that touch is the one that protects you from the nasty spells.
It goes without saying that the monk's saves out-class the fighter's saves; not even considering immunity to disease and poison.
Both builds are defensive in nature - but not hyper-specialized defenders; you can spend more money in each build on being a better defender with diminishing returns on investment. The monk will come out on-top of that arms race by a significant margin.
- Fighter original: 26, 28, 32, 36
- Fighter combat expertise: 28, 30, 35, 41
- Fighter (expertise, defensive): 31, 33, 38, 44
- Monk without shield of swings: 23, 26, 29, 42
- Monk with shield of swings: 23, 30, 33, 46
- Monk (shield-of-swings, ki dodge, defensive): 30, 37, 40, 53
Summary full ACs on levels 4, 6, 9, 16:
+4 fullplate
+4 heavy shield
18 Dex (+4 dex belt)
dodge feat
shield focus feat
greater shield focus feat
+3 amulet of natural armor
+3 ring of protection
dusty rose prism ioun stone
I only checked this one and the numbers are off.
+4 fullplate=13
+4 shield=9
dex=4
dodge feat=1
sheild feats=2
amulet=3
ring=3
ioun stone=1
13+9+4+1+2+3+3+1=32+10(base AC)=46
If the fighter uses a defending weapon then that is 3 more for 49
combat expertise is another 5 for 54.
edit:I forgot to include the dex bonus
Edit:There is also a feat that lets fighter add his shield bonus to his AC
touch AC-->19 normally, +3 for the weapon, and +5 for combat expertise=27(2 less than the monk's).
edit 3:That was the 16th level fighter.
Defensive _____ is meaningless as this is a 3e game, and in the 3e engine offensive wins every single time.
I keep seeing people going "Well of course the fighter is better at being a fighter then a monk." I've yet to see a core "niche" for the monk that can't be done better by other classes.
Some people disagree. Even high level games require skill checks, and rogues put out decent damage
Monk's are known to do better damage than rogue's (DPR olympics); and monk's still have an okay amount of skills from a useful selection. The rogue generally has better access to social skills, but the monk intrudes well on stealth, perception and acrobatic areas.
Rangers also have more useful skills, and an animal companion. I think an archery based ranger is better than a monk in combat. Edge:Ranger
Even if you compare an archery based ranger with an archery based monk? The ranger is a very competent archer, for sure, but the zen archer is still a better at archery.
I doubt a monk will give a GM a harder time. If the fighter is not built to cover its weaknesses then maybe, but that is a player issue, not a fighter issue. Maybe the barbarian will not challenge a GM much, but the other classes named can be headaches.
How does the fighter cover his weaknesses? A cloak (like the one the monk has too)? Iron Will (like the monk has too)? Even if the fighter has hardcore fortitude he still fails between 5% and 20% of the time against disease and poisons. He's prone to fail his saves vs enemy spellcasters that will curse, dominate, confuse or otherwise mess with his head.
Defensive _____ is meaningless as this is a 3e game, and in the 3e engine offensive wins every single time.
Almost true, it depends on the level of defense. At level 16 the monk can all-but-shutdown an enemy's melee attacks by simply being untouchable. A CR16 monster has +26 to hit, which requires a natural 20 to hit the level 16 monk. The fighter may or may not be able to kill the CR 16 monster before he gets killed himself. The monk is more likely to win - even if it takes longer.
In terms of a party-based game that gets even more relevant; the ability to control and limit enemy creatures in such a way is integral to the monk's purpose.
I keep seeing people going "Well of course the fighter is better at being a fighter then a monk." I've yet to see a core "niche" for the monk that can't be done better by other classes.
A fighter isn't better at being a fighter than a monk if you at the same time have to reduce the liabilities of the fighter.
+4 fullplate
+4 heavy shield
18 Dex (+4 dex belt)
dodge feat
shield focus feat
greater shield focus feat
+3 amulet of natural armor
+3 ring of protection
dusty rose prism ioun stoneI only checked this one and the numbers are off.
+4 fullplate=13
+4 shield=9
dex=4
dodge feat=1
sheild feats=2
amulet=3
ring=3
ioun stone=113+9+4+1+2+3+3+1=32+10(base AC)=46
If the fighter uses a defending weapon then that is 3 more for 49
combat expertise is another 5 for 54.edit:I forgot to include the dex bonus
Edit:There is also a feat that lets fighter add his shield bonus to his ACtouch AC-->19 normally, +3 for the weapon, and +5 for combat expertise=27(2 less than the monk's).
edit 3:That was the 16th level fighter.
Oops, but:
Where does a +4 heavy shield grant +9 to AC? I don't remember seeing a Pathfinder feat that lets you add shield to touch AC - but Ray Shield allows you to "Deflect Arrow" one ranged touch attack (at the cost of the shield absorbing the relevant effect of the spell).
The monk too can wield a defending quarterstaff (+3)
The monk too can have combat expertise (+4)
Still better AC on the monk
All this assumes a fighter that gives up his DPR potential to have high defenses. This is, of course, a perfectly valid strategy for a fighter to take - but in that case his DPR is actually lower than the monk's. The monk gives much up less damage potential in the process of being a well-defended character. He still has better saves and utility, still has better AC, and now also has better DPR than the fighter.
I am just providing a link for a direct download of treantmonk's guide to monks here.
Just in case the OP couldn't open the d20pfsrd link.
- masterwork fullplate
- +1 heavy shield
- 14 Dex
- Dodge feat
- Shield Focus feat
level 6 AC 29; touch 14; flat 26
- +1 fullplate
- +1 heavy shield
- 14 Dex
- dodge feat
- shield focus feat
- +1 amulet of natural armor
- +1 ring of protection
level 9 AC 33; touch 15; flat 29
- +3 fullplate
- +2 heavy shield
- 16 Dex (+2 dex belt)
- dodge feat
- shield focus feat
- +1 amulet of natural armor
- +1 ring of protection
level 16 AC 46; touch 22; flat 41
- +4 fullplate
- +4 heavy shield
- 18 Dex (+4 dex belt)
- dodge feat
- shield focus feat
- greater shield focus feat
- +3 amulet of natural armor
- +3 ring of protection
- dusty rose prism ioun stone
- +3 defending weapon
level 4 AC 23; touch 17; flat 20
- potion of mage armor
- ki power barkskin
- 14 Dex
- 16 Wis
- monk levels: +1 AC
- dodge feat
level 6 AC 30; touch 19; flat 27
- potion of mage armor 4 + 3 + 2+ 4+ 1 + 1+ 1+ 4
- ki power barkskin
- 14 Dex
- 18 Wis (+2 wis headband)
- monk levels: +1 AC
- dodge feat
- +1 ring of protection
- shield of swings feat (quarterstaff)
level 9 AC 33; touch 22; flat 29
- potion of mage armor
- ki power barkskin
- 16 Dex (+2 dex belt)
- 18 Wis (+2 wis headband)
- monk levels: +2 AC
- dodge feat
- +2 ring of protection
- shield of swings feat (quarterstaff)
level 16 AC 49; touch 32; flat 44
- +8 bracers of armor
- ki power barkskin
- 18 Dex (+4 dex belt)
- 20 Wis (+4 wis headband)
- monk levels: +4 AC
- dodge feat
- +3 ring of protection
- monk's robe
- dusty ruse prism ioun stone
- shield of swings feat (quarterstaff)
- +3 defending weapon
level 4 AC 26; touch 13; flat 23
- Fighter original: 26, 29, 33, 46
- Fighter combat expertise: 28, 31, 36, 51
- Fighter (expertise, defensive): 31, 34, 39, 54
- Monk without shield of swings: 23, 26, 29, 42
- Monk with shield of swings: 23, 30, 33, 49
- Monk (shield-of-swings, ki dodge, defensive): 30, 37, 40, 56
Summary full ACs on levels 4, 6, 9, 16:
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Literally everything here could be done by any class. You didn't use any monk abilities other then "they don't get hit by disease/poison" which isn't even a monk-only ability.
Really? Your wizards and sorcerers are flanking buddies? Your fighters have high movement that allows them to go around to the far side to flank? You already pointed out the immunities, you completely overlooked stunning fist.
Who is the most likely to survive magic attacks? The one who has the highest saves and/or Spell resistance.
If you don't spend money on armor, you can spend it on other things. If you don't have to invest in two weapons for your two weapon build, you can spend the loot on other things. If you naturally have all good saves...well, you know.
Prof I agree with you on a lot of other threads, but you are just wrong on this one.
Of course. Same as casters. It is how they get access to armor enhancements.o man, look what i started... lol
Also, question, do/would you allow a Monk to wear Bracers of Armor?
And remember to make copious use of potions of mage armor. Or a wand of the same, if you have an arcane caster handy.
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Defensive _____ is meaningless as this is a 3e game, and in the 3e engine offensive wins every single time.
I keep seeing people going "Well of course the fighter is better at being a fighter then a monk." I've yet to see a core "niche" for the monk that can't be done better by other classes.
Survivability isn't meaningless. Many, many times I've seen near TPKs with only the monk standing to save the rest of the party thanks to saves, immunities, and resistances.
I like the monk class. I enjoy playing monks. They aren't great damage-dealers. They aren't going to take down the biggest baddest guy in the room. They are, in my experience, great at taking out humanoid minions that are equal-sized or smaller-sized than they are. And in certain unlikely combinations of circumstance, they can be absolutely freakin awesome.
A monk doesn't--can't--shine like other classes. But for me, they work very well as a means of running interference, keeping the stage clear for the bigger players. My party relies on my monk to clear house in every encounter involving multiple opponents, and he's optimised to do just that. He doesn't contribute so well to battles involving a big giant bad guy, although in one battle against a half-fiend assassin he did memorably jump far enough off the ground to grapple the assassin in mid-air.
More than any other, monks appear to be a YMMV class. Obviously I get plenty of mileage out of them. Others get little. And that's okay--those sorts of differences are what make the world go round. : )
Go back to my original example.
Who won the fight?
The one who lost the +2 flaming greatsword in two rounds? Or the one who took 14 damage and left with the loot?
If the Monk and the fighter stand up toe to toe, the fighter wins nearly every time. That's what the fighter does.
The Monk wins when he does something the fighter can't do or isn't prepared for. Like run up, disarm, take the fighter's weapon (or take the fighter's weapon and shield if he beats the disarm check by a high enough amount) and then leaves with them.
I agree that iterative attacks are a horrible way to boost damage. I prefer how 4E handles them. I really wish maneuver on the battle map was more important in PF; that is what's needed for the Monk (and the Rogue) more than anything.
Defensive _____ is meaningless as this is a 3e game, and in the 3e engine offensive wins every single time.
I keep seeing people going "Well of course the fighter is better at being a fighter then a monk." I've yet to see a core "niche" for the monk that can't be done better by other classes.
Yes and no. The ability of not being shut down in the decisive round is very improtant IME.
This is why, BTW, I think barbarian > fighter when other people say it's the exact opposite. :D
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I keep seeing people going "Well of course the fighter is better at being a fighter then a monk." I've yet to see a core "niche" for the monk that can't be done better by other classes.
I don't see this as a valid argument, unless you're trying to argue the best class. A class doesn't need to be the best at what it does, just that it DOES something. LT says the monk CAN do something, not that they are the best at what they do.
Why can't the fighter have a locked gauntlet? Or even just a weapon cord? I think the fighter would win either way.Go back to my original example.
Who won the fight?
The one who lost the +2 flaming greatsword in two rounds? Or the one who took 14 damage and left with the loot?
If the Monk and the fighter stand up toe to toe, the fighter wins nearly every time. That's what the fighter does.
The Monk wins when he does something the fighter can't do or isn't prepared for. Like run up, disarm, take the fighter's weapon (or take the fighter's weapon and shield if he beats the disarm check by a high enough amount) and then leaves with them.
I agree that iterative attacks are a horrible way to boost damage. I prefer how 4E handles them. I really wish maneuver on the battle map was more important in PF; that is what's needed for the Monk (and the Rogue) more than anything.
Oooh! Let's have fun here.
Locked gauntlet on a two handed sword. Cool. The Monk goes for the grapple. Fighter's CMD is 5 LESS versus the grapple. (Fighter doesn't get the Weapon Training bonus for the grapple, and you are fighting in a grapple without both hands free, for -4).
Being grappled by a Monk sucks.
Let's look at the weapon cord: Doesn't actually help you much at all for the disarm when the disarm is done by someone who's using unarmed strikes - since the unarmed strike gains control of the weapon, it doesn't hit the ground.
It changes the Monk's action post disarm - I do a standard attack on the cord and move 50'. Then run the next round.
Fighter is relying on having a piece of equipment. Monk is relying on making sure that piece of equipment is irrelevant.
The Monk is one level lower than the Fighter, a 'weaker' class, suboptimally built (Combat Expertise? On a Monk?) and has half the equipment the fighter does.
Can the monk kill the fighter straight out? Nope.
Can the monk keep the fighter from being effective? Yes.
Can the monk take out hordes of minions faster than the fighter does? Yes.
Yes but all a fighter need to counter a grappling and disarming monk is as simple as having spiked armor as his back up weapon. The monk will die after wasting his turn grappling or disarming. He will eat a full iterative from the fighter.
As for mooks, I don't see how a monk is better than a fighter against mooks.
Oh, I think you walked into a trap there Gignere; let me explain: the grappling monk has Greater Grapple allowing him to maintain as a move-action. It takes him one turn to setup a pin (standard action grapple to establish grapple, move action to pin). The move action to pin is at an additional +5 to the grapple attempt, meaning the fighter has very bad odds at this point. Once he is pinned there is no attacking with armor spikes.
But assume that the fighter's grappled but not pinned - yes he gets to attack with armor spikes: but his DPR is massively reduced in that round he cannot nearly do enough damage to stop the monk with armor spikes in one round. But then round 2 the monk gets two attempts to pin - and once pinned thats two attempts to maintain and hurt; dealing up to 4d8 + 10 damage each round - where the fighter gets one attempt to break out of the pin each round. Against the monk's CMD that is really really difficult - and all that nets him is a breather as the monk re-establishes the pin next turn.
Also keep in mind that when pinned, the fighter is flat-footed and takes an additional -4 to AC (and correspondingly CMD). It becomes trivially easy for the monk to maintain his pin - a self-fulfilling prophecy actually.
And the monk is better against mooks because the +to-hit is irrelevant, all attacks hit essentially - since the monk has so many attacks, he can make them count against many enemies.
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Oh, I think you walked into a trap there Gignere; let me explain: the grappling monk has Greater Grapple allowing him to maintain as a move-action. It takes him one turn to setup a pin (standard action grapple to establish grapple, move action to pin). The move action to pin is at an additional +5 to the grapple attempt, meaning the fighter has very bad odds at this point. Once he is pinned there is no attacking with armor spikes.
Doesn't work, Greater Grapple lets you use a move action to maintain the grapple ONLY, not make a pin attempt. On the first round, you use your standard action to initiate the grapple, leaving you with a move action. Thus, you can maintain the grapple as a move action, if you want to be redundant. You still must wait until the next round to have a standard action available to make a pin.
I'm pretty sure that LilithsThrall's monk would die in both my 15 PB and 25 PB games long before reaching 16th level. That being said, the monk did somehow miraculously reach 16th level, they wouldn't reach 20th level, and that's even considering the +5 inherent modifiers in every ability score that I would expect the party wizard to give to the monk at 13th level (via Planar Binding cheese) to give it a leg-up from the MAD problem that it suffers.
I'd mostly be impressed if it made it to 6th level while actually doing something besides hiding.
greater grapple allows two attempts to move ion or whatever an opponent. you can standard grapple then move pin.
generally speaking I've never seen monks have problems. but ashiels post reminds me we all play the game differently.
Doesn't work, Greater Grapple lets you use a move action to maintain the grapple ONLY, not make a pin attempt. On the first round, you use your standard action to initiate the grapple, leaving you with a move action. Thus, you can maintain the grapple as a move action, if you want to be redundant. You still must wait until the next round to have a standard action available to make a pin.
Oh, I think you walked into a trap there Gignere; let me explain: the grappling monk has Greater Grapple allowing him to maintain as a move-action. It takes him one turn to setup a pin (standard action grapple to establish grapple, move action to pin). The move action to pin is at an additional +5 to the grapple attempt, meaning the fighter has very bad odds at this point. Once he is pinned there is no attacking with armor spikes.
Not quite - when you maintain a grapple you get a number of effects that you can chose from: moving, damaging or pinning. That is what it means to maintain a grapple. Relevant rules:
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple). ...move...damage...pin...
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greater grapple allows two attempts to move ion or whatever an opponent. you can standard grapple then move pin.
generally speaking I've never seen monks have problems. but ashiels post reminds me we all play the game differently.
This is true on so many levels.
Particularly the levels where one reads the rules of Planar binding and follows them.
"Each creature gets a saving throw, makes an independent attempt to escape, and must be individually persuaded to aid you.
I noticed that you didn't make an actual argument to support your claim. All you did was make an unsupported assertion.I'm pretty sure that LilithsThrall's monk would die in both my 15 PB and 25 PB games long before reaching 16th level. That being said, the monk did somehow miraculously reach 16th level, they wouldn't reach 20th level, and that's even considering the +5 inherent modifiers in every ability score that I would expect the party wizard to give to the monk at 13th level (via Planar Binding cheese) to give it a leg-up from the MAD problem that it suffers.
I'd mostly be impressed if it made it to 6th level while actually doing something besides hiding.
That's because it was a passing commentary based on observation and general experience. I legitimately believe that the monk that you posted wouldn't survive very long in one of my games. I didn't say your monk wouldn't be able to survive any games. Just not mine. My games tend to be fairly hard with a variety of enemies who tend to be semi-intelligent, use dirty tricks, and don't leap upon the swords of their enemies.
Given your build, and its low strength, I don't really believe you'd have much luck stunning or grappling, and you definitely wouldn't be laying down the damage like that. I'm just not very impressed.
If you want an argument, then my argument is that I've been GMing my games for 11+ years and have been steadily learning more about the game in that time, what works, what doesn't, what's possible, what isn't, and generally understand how my game runs and what does and doesn't work.
If someone came to me and said "Hey I want to play a wizard to fights in melee with daggers", then posted a build that involved the wizard with minor to moderate Int, lack of Constitution, emphasis on dexterity, weapon finesse, and power attack...well I'd probably say they wouldn't survive either.
EDIT: Actually, if you want to find out, you can totally join one of my games on OpenRPG sometime. My online games offer 25 PB and double base HP at 1st level, and I have some house rules that would even let you get your flurry off in the same round you move.
So if you want, you can build your 1st level monk and we'll have a go of it, and we'll see how far you make it.
EDIT 2: Also, I love how the horned devil you fight seems to be forgetting that he has greater teleport at will, fear aura, DR 10/good and silver, magic circle vs good up all the time, and your entire strategy is basically banking on the hopes that he doesn't have the Combat Reflexes feat (instead of say, Improved Vital Strike) which would allow him to completely thrash you when you tried to charge into melee with him in the first place.
EDIT 3: And if you complain about the horned devil possibly having Combat Reflexes then your monk isn't really that good after all. If your whole strategy basically banks on fighting the most generic enemy using the predetermined feats and no other feats it qualifies for, well you've pretty much already lost.
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you definitely wouldn't be laying down the damage like that.Okay, so you think that if the Monk can't do good damage, then it's going to be ineffective.
That's like saying that if a Wizard casts Hold Monster instead of Fireball, he's going to be ineffective.
Your 11+ years makes you a noob in DnD.
But a Wizard casting Fireball instead of HM *is* ineffective. :D
Oh well. Round Two: LT vs. Ashiel. And I ran out of popcorn and beer....
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you definitely wouldn't be laying down the damage like that.Okay, so you think that if the Monk can't do good damage, then it's going to be ineffective.
That's like saying that if a Wizard casts Hold Monster instead of Fireball, he's going to be ineffective.
Your 11+ years makes you a noob in DnD.
But a Wizard casting Fireball instead of HM *is* ineffective. :D
Oh well. Round Two: LT vs. Ashiel. And I ran out of popcorn and beer....
*Plops down a comfy couch beside Gorbacz, then a cooler full of beer. Passes the bag of popcorn.*