I know that this question may look simple, but it's given me a big headache. So, as we all know vampires have the Undead (augmented) type. This means their primary type is undead. However, they still have the augmented subtype, the rules for which read as follows:
Augmented Subtype: A creature receives this subtype when something (usually a template) changes its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature's original type.
From my reading, I understand that a creature with the augmented subtype is still also it's original type, as the augmented subtype is "paired" with the original type.
The reason I ask is because I need to resolve issues in my game with bane weapons and ranger favored enemies. We recently had a fight with a vampire in which I ruled the ranger's favored enemy (humanoid {human}) counted against the vampire because it was an augmented human. I'd just like to have this confusion cleared up in the future, if possible.
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If the ranger was allowed to take just (Humanoid {all}) and not (Humanoid {human}) then I would say that it would still work. But since the ranger has to specify what flavor of humanoid it is, and the vampire becomes (undead {augmented humanoid}), it will not work. Basically the vampire looses the {human} subtype. It no longer moves/thinks/acts like a normal human would.
To get the bonus you would need the favored enemy type of (undead).
To get the bonus you would need the favored enemy type of (undead).
This would be my ruling as well, since undead is already an allowable favored enemy.
I would say the vampire is technically undead(augmented humanoid(human)). I can definitely see the reasoning for allowing a vampire to retain its type and subtype, but the way I see the rules it's type is undead so subtypes are irrelevant.
I disagree, because of this line :
The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature's original type.
Now, just like a bane (Humanoid) weapon, or the Ranger's favored enemy, they have to pick a specific type of Humanoid.
There are no pure Humanoids in the game. Each Humanoid has a subtype, and it's the subtype that the bane/favored enemy keys off of. For a vampire, a Vampire (Augmented Humanoid) must have a subtype. That subtype could be human, elf, dwarf, etc. Alternately, a Vampire (Augmented Monstrous Humanoid) could have a subtype of Goblin or Hobgoblin or Minotaur. A vampire (Animal) would have a subtype of Feline, Canine, Equine, etc.
The original type doesn't change. All this means is that vampires have it the worst of two worlds. They count as both Undead and Original Subtype for bane and ranger abilities. Just as a Half-Elf counts as both Elf and Human for the same things.
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I disagree, because of this line :
The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature's original type.
Now, just like a bane (Humanoid) weapon, or the Ranger's favored enemy, they have to pick a specific type of Humanoid.
There are no pure Humanoids in the game. Each Humanoid has a subtype, and it's the subtype that the bane/favored enemy keys off of. For a vampire, a Vampire (Augmented Humanoid) must have a subtype. That subtype could be human, elf, dwarf, etc. Alternately, a Vampire (Augmented Monstrous Humanoid) could have a subtype of Goblin or Hobgoblin or Minotaur. A vampire (Animal) would have a subtype of Feline, Canine, Equine, etc.
The original type doesn't change. All this means is that vampires have it the worst of two worlds. They count as both Undead and Original Subtype for bane and ranger abilities. Just as a Half-Elf counts as both Elf and Human for the same things.
It pairs with the creatures original type, but not its subtype. Thus the vampire is not a (undead {augmented humanoid (human)}). They are still humanoid for spells and effects that can effect only "humanoids" but they are no longer "human" for spells and effects that can target (Humanoid {human}). Since the ranger does not get to choose just "humanoid" as a favored enemy, they do not get the bonus.
The vampire is undead, not human so no the ranger does not get his human bounse on formally human undead. He needs to take undead as his FE if he wants his bonuses on undead.
May I just point out that a Human that is bitten by a were-rat becomes an Augmented Humanoid? This is the same as if they were bitten by a vampire. Are they also immune to Bane (Human) and FE (Human)?
so MDt a flesh golem which used to be a human as the vampire and has all Human parts is still human?
so MDt a flesh golem which used to be a human as the vampire and has all Human parts is still human?
Flesh Golem CR 7XP 3,200
N Large
Completely and utterly irrelevant to the current discussion, since a flesh golem is a construct, not an Augmented Humanoid.
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May I just point out that a Human that is bitten by a were-rat becomes an Augmented Humanoid? This is the same as if they were bitten by a vampire. Are they also immune to Bane (Human) and FE (Human)?
Different situation. Or as you would say, "Completely and utterly irrelevant to the current discussion.."
lycanthropes add a subtype, but do not replace the main type. For example, the wererat has the following type (subtypes) combo:
LE Medium humanoid (human, shapechanger)
So they are still humanoid (human) but they also have the additional subtype of (shapechanger).
A vampire has the following type (subtpyes) combo:
CE Medium undead (augmented humanoid)
So they no longer have the "human" subtpye anywhere in there, instead the main type humanoid, becomes a subtype (this is what the subtype "augmented" allows), while the "undead" becomes the new main type.
Happler beat me to posting it. The Vampire are no longer human, but Undead of the augmented Humanoid subtype. As much Human as the flesh golem. Meaning they both used to be human, but no longer are.
Happler beat me to posting it. The Vampire are no longer human, but Undead of the augmented Humanoid subtypeWe kobolds can be quick sometimes.. :P
Yeah, glad I didn't hit ya with the flyswatter after all. Sometimes its hard to hold back that instinct :)
Actually, you are both wrong.
You do add the shapechanger subtype, but it also gains the Augmented Humanoid subtype. Please see the bestiary entry. I'll reproduce it for the wererat header.
Wererat (Human Form) CR 2XP 600
Human natural wererat rogue 2
LE Medium humanoid (human, shapechanger)
So, now that you've done with your high fives that seem a bit premature...
Honestly I would say wererats are not affected by things that effect humans then. As they are no longer of the human subtype.
I had not noticed wererats lost the human subtype, but did know undead did.
Thanks, I learned something new.
Honestly I would say wererats are not affected by things that effect humans then. As they are no longer of the human subtype.
I had not noticed wererats lost the human subtype, but did know undead did.
Thanks, I learned something new.
No problem. I'm ok with ruling it either way (although I think it needs a clarification in the FAQ as it really could be read either way). I just think it can be read either way, and I tend to come down on the side that keeps the PCs powers being more useful without being overpowered.
I disagree, because of this line :
We will probably have to agree to disagree.
The way the rules are written the augmented subtype is meaningless.
The designers carefully and dutiful told us how the augmented subtype is acquired, but they didn't bother to mention how this affects the rules.
"Augmented Subtype: A creature receives this subtype when something (usually a template) changes its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type."
As I said above I believe that a vampire is an undead(augmented humanoid[human]) creature.
So, it is in fact, undead. Augmented(humanoid[human]) subtype tells us how it got there but doesn't affect the fact that a vampire's type is undead.
The original type doesn't change. All this means is that vampires have it the worst of two worlds. They count as both Undead and Original Subtype for bane and ranger abilities. Just as a Half-Elf counts as both Elf and Human for the same things.
Half-elves are explicitly called out as counting as both. There is no where in the rules (at least that I can find) a simple statement like that for the augmented subtype.
I'm beginning to wonder if this just vestigial rule left over from 3.5. In which "A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type." Features being Hit Dice, BAB, saves, and skills. This little tidbit no longer appears in the augmented subtype entry.
In 3.5, the augmented subtype was needed because for vampires unlike other undead templates you did not recalculate Hit Dice, BAB, or saves (which would have been calculated based on the creature's original type).
In Pathfinder, they edited it ever so slightly to read "Do not recalculate class Hit Dice, BAB, or saves." This seems to say that a creature with many racial Hit Dice are recalculated as if they were undead all along. Which means the augmented subtype is unneeded.
So you're saying that despite the word "human" being repeated 3 times in the header for wererat a wererat isn't human?
It comes down to one of the following :
A) Augmented Humanoid keeps their original subtype as well (Human, Elf, etc). A Human Vampire has the name Human in her stat block as well.
OR
B) Augmented Humanoids no longer count as their original subtypes, only as Humanoids. Which means neither a human were nor a human vampire still count as human.
Unfortunately, the Augmented Humanoid text is pretty vague on exactly how that works.
In Pathfinder, they edited it ever so slightly to read "Do not recalculate class Hit Dice, BAB, or saves." This seems to say that a creature with many racial Hit Dice are recalculated as if they were undead all along.
Which really makes more sense if you stop and think about it. An undead dragon is probably actually weaker, as his body is no longer gaining his extremely potent supernatural draconic blood powering it. On the other hand, a bugbear should be somewhat naturally tougher than it was in life, since it's body wasn't supernatural to begin with. So the dragon would drop to D10's for his racial hit dice, and the bugbear would go up to d10's as he get's supernaturally tougher.
while it may be vague, the examples we have show they do not stay Humanoid{human} but simply {humanoid}.
In the case of argumentation, it seems the former type becomes the subtype and the former subtype is lost.
Unless ya can find where something has a sub-subtype anyhow.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Actually, you are both wrong.
You do add the shapechanger subtype, but it also gains the Augmented Humanoid subtype. Please see the bestiary entry. I'll reproduce it for the wererat header.
So, now that you've done with your high fives that seem a bit premature...
Wererat (Human Form) CR 2XP 600
Human natural wererat rogue 2
LE Medium humanoid (human, shapechanger)
That's an obvious error, because a) it's the only one of the lycanthropy stat blocks with that line and b) it's not even on the correct line. The type line above makes it clear that a wererat is a humanoid (human, shapechanger). A humanoid never has the subtype augmented humanoid anyway.
The high-fivers are correct -- a human/animal lycanthrope is a humanoid type with human and shapechanger subtypes, and would qualify under the Favored Enemy of humanoid (human).
Unfortunately, the Augmented Humanoid text is pretty vague on exactly how that works.
True dat.
It just seemed to make a little more sense in 3.5, where there was at least one effect (even if that wasn't very clear).
I would probably split the differnce if I was a DM.
For purposes of being affected by magic or bane weapons... NO it is NOT a human anymore.
For the Ranger favored enemy class... I would say if it walks like a human.. looks like a human... then it would still prvoke his hatred of humans.
I CERTAINLY wouldn't ever let a ranger see through it's 'disguise' based solely on the fact that it doesn't trigger his rage.
Same goes for any shapeshifter that shows up in human form.
I dont think the wording of Augmented Subtype is as a vague as you say.
I agree that how the subtype is acquired isn't vague.
What the heck does the subtype actually do?!
That's an obvious error, because a) it's the only one of the lycanthropy stat blocks with that line and b) it's not even on the correct line. The type line above makes it clear that a wererat is a humanoid (human, shapechanger). A humanoid never has the subtype augmented humanoid anyway.The high-fivers are correct -- a human/animal lycanthrope is a humanoid type with human and shapechanger subtypes, and would qualify under the Favored Enemy of humanoid (human).
Then it needs to be errata'd. I still find the augmented humanoid to be vague. But as I put in earlier in the thread, however you want to read it works for me, as long as it's consistent.
A Worm that Walks also has the augmented humanoid subtype.
I'm actually wondering if they originally intended for inherited shapeshifters to get the Augmented Humanoid subtype? Because Augmented talks about that, but none of the things that get it can inherit it. :)
A Worm that Walks also has the augmented humanoid subtype.
That depends on which creature was used to create one. If you start with a spellcasting dragon, you end up with a vermin (augmented dragon). If you start with a lich, you end up with a vermin (augmented undead).
Worm that Walks is a great example since it can be applied to any spellcasting creature.
I dont think the wording of Augmented Subtype is as a vague as you say.I agree that how the subtype is acquired isn't vague.
What the heck does the subtype actually do?!
As near as I can tell, the subtype is completely for book-keeping purposes.
Also, thank you everyone, you've been quite helpful. I think I'm going to go with the argument that vampires, while once human, lack certain characteristics that make them actually human. So no bane, no favored enemy.
while it may be vague, the examples we have show they do not stay Humanoid{human} but simply {humanoid}.
In the case of argumentation, it seems the former type becomes the subtype and the former subtype is lost.
Unless ya can find where something has a sub-subtype anyhow.
The sub-subtype argument is fallacious.
What about a ranger with favored enemy ooze fighting Jell-o-cula, the Vampiric Gelatinous Cube? This would without a doubt be Undead(Augmented Ooze). So, does the augmented subtype mean it counts as both or not.
My opinion: subtypes, sub-subtypes, it doesn't matter, its the type that counts.
The sub-subtype argument is fallacious.
What about a ranger with favored enemy ooze fighting Jell-o-cula, the Vampiric Gelatinous Cube? This would without a doubt be Undead(Augmented Ooze). So, does the augmented subtype mean it counts as both or not.
My opinion: subtypes, sub-subtypes, it doesn't matter, its the type that counts.
I agree. An X (augmented Y) is not a Y anymore; it used to be. Effects based on its type work on it as an X and not as a Y.
My opinion: subtypes, sub-subtypes, it doesn't matter, its the type that counts.
The type is undead. The subtype is Augmented Humanoid.
In the case of the vampire undead was the type.
As humanoid is now the subtype it can not have yet another subtype.
As Tim points out above, if the Humanoid subtype is lost, this causes Bane and FE to work sometimes and not others.
For example :
FE : Animals works on Undead (Augmented Animal) in the case of a vampiric bear or wolf.
Bane : Fey works on Undead (Augmented Fey) in the case of a vampiric grick.
Both somehow cease to work if you have a vampiric (augmented humanoid) due to the subtypes.
I feel this is counter intuitive, personally. Whether the vampire is human or animal should not effect whether a Ranger's FE works or not.
It's confusing issues like these that the Devs added the FAQ button to the boards...
And so far, it would seem that only 2 people have used it for the OP's original question...
Uhm,
I posted it for the OP in the 'put all FAQ questions here' thread that's been going on all week. And I FAQ'd it here.
AH!
I knew there was something nagging at me about the whole augmented thing and not being the original type.
Awaken Spell[/i]]
magical beast (augmented animal)
FE : Animal and Bane : Animal should still work on an awakened animal....
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AH!
I knew there was something nagging at me about the whole augmented thing and not being the original type.
Awaken Spell[/i]]
magical beast (augmented animal)
FE : Animal and Bane : Animal should still work on an awakened animal....
I think that we need more cleanup and clarification on exactly what the subtype "augmented" does, other then to tag something that it normally a type into the subtype field.
I say this since a vampire should not have all the info from the type "humanoid" but only some of them.
For example, if you compair the following:
• Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (medium progression).
• One good save, usually Reflex.
• Skill points equal to 2 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die or by character class. The following are class skills for humanoids without a character class: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Profession, Ride, and Survival. Humanoids with a character class use their class's skill list instead.
Traits: A humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
• Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class.
• Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
• Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.
and
• Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (medium progression).
• Good Will saves.
• Skill points equal to 4 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. Many undead, however, are mindless and gain no skill points or feats. The following are class skills for undead: Climb, Disguise, Fly, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcane), Knowledge (religion), Perception, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Stealth.
Traits: An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
• No Constitution score. Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution (such as when calculating a breath weapon's DC).
• Darkvision 60 feet.
• Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
• Immunity to bleed, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
• Not subject to nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Constitution, Dexterity, and Strength), as well as to exhaustion and fatigue effects.
• Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature's Intelligence score.
• Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
• Not at risk of death from massive damage, but is immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points.
• Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
• Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
• Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
• Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
Do you just merge the two and if there is conflicts, take the undead version? And is a type moved to a subtype via the augmented subtype, still effected by all spells and effects that normally affect that type?
(you know, I hate the affect/effect combo sometimes :P)
I think that we need more cleanup and clarification on exactly what the subtype "augmented" does, other then to tag something that it normally a type into the subtype field.I say this since a vampire should not have all the info from the type "humanoid" but only some of them.
For example, if you compair the following:
** spoiler omitted **
and
** spoiler omitted **...
Yup.
It's another thorny hornet's nest in the dark it is. :)
Do you just merge the two and if there is conflicts, take the undead version? And is a type moved to a subtype via the augmented subtype, still affected by all spells and effects that normally affect that type?
(you know, I hate the affect/effect combo sometimes :P)
Fixed it for ya. ;-)
As I mentioned above, what features and traits go was slightly clearer under 3.5. You retained racial features (number of Hit Dice, BAB, saves, and skills) but changed traits (everything else). Now Pathfinder seems to be ditch everything except class features.
AH!
I knew there was something nagging at me about the whole augmented thing and not being the original type.
Awaken Spell[/i]]
magical beast (augmented animal)
FE : Animal and Bane : Animal should still work on an awakened animal....
Should it?
Some druid casts awaken animal on a bear. Now this bear is more intelligent than a normal animal.
"Sorry, Mr. Ranger, Sir." No favored enemy bonus. "I'm smarter than the average bear!"
But the bear is no longer of the animal type. Bane would not work, nor would FE . Its no longer a bear. It just happens to look like a bear.
Question.. in the Bestiary entry of vampire it lists human, is this purely descriptive?
Vampire
XP 6,400
Female human vampire sorcerer 8
CE Medium undead (augmented humanoid)
Question.. in the Bestiary entry of vampire it lists human, is this purely descriptive?
More or less yes. Her type is Undead, subtype is (augmented humanoid). She is no longer Human.
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Question.. in the Bestiary entry of vampire it lists human, is this purely descriptive?
Vampire
XP 6,400
Female human vampire sorcerer 8
CE Medium undead (augmented humanoid)
That is just an example vampire..
From the prd
Creating a Vampire“Vampire” is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature with 5 or more Hit Dice (referred to hereafter as the base creature). Most vampires were once humanoids, fey, or monstrous humanoids.
They give you an example one, but you can apply the template to any living creature with 5+ HD.
That is just an example vampire..
-_- Is this example vampire considered human? It is listed in the bestiary. Does the "base creature" in this case Human, still factor in? Since Vampire is added, I am leaning towards yes...
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That is just an example vampire..-_- Is this example vampire considered human? It is listed in the bestiary. Does the "base creature" in this case Human, still factor in? Since Vampire is added, I am leaning towards yes...
That is the crux of this whole thread.
While it was human, the type/subtype combo no longer state human as a subtype. I could see a yes if the augmented subtype changed it to this:
Undead (augmented humanoid, human)
But it instead changes it to this:
undead (augmented humanoid)
that first would be, if they intended it to still count as a humanoid(human) for spells and effects, the correct way to go, since you can have more then one subtype on any creature.
If they intended it to no longer be humanoid(human) for spells and effects, then the second would be correct.
Now from what I can see, RAW states that they are no longer affected, but what RAI is, is still up for debate.
I'd say a human vampire is a human, and should be listed as such in either an additional subtype or as a "sub-subtype". However the favored enemy ability looks for type "Humanoid" and subtype "human" but would find type "Undead" and not care about subtypes.
So it wouldn't work, RAW. Personally, I think it should.
I think the entry should read as Vampire= Augmented undead
As in, the base creature type changes to undead, then gets augmented.