Maybe all of them were first, each universe on its own (proto-axis, abyss, first world ...), then the proteans dissolved the barriers
i'm sure you could, but the answer is 'nothing'. as in...nothing. No up, no down, no light, no dark. A void in every sense of the word. hence my earlier comment that mortal brains simply lack the equipment to process what something like that means.
Here's my problem with Nothing. For there to be Nothing, there must be Something with which to contrast it. One can only define Nothing by comparing it to Something. Nature abhors a vacuum and all that jazz.
Compare it to modern physics: phycisists can tell you what the universe was like within a fraction of a nanosecond following the Big Bang, yet they have no clue what immediately preceded it. However, they know that something was going on before that singularity. It certainly wasn't Nothing. Sky's the limit as to what that Something was though (insert any religion/sci fi fantasy/crazy theory here).
Of course at this point we're entering a realm more philosophical than anything, so to each his/her own.
no..you're just wrong. But as you say, to each their own.
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After a bit more reading, I bet that Zon-Kuthon is less "alien" than we think.
Just as Asmodeus is a deity-level devil (Yes, I know, not an ascended devil), and Lamashtu is a deity-level demon, and Rovagug is a deity-level qlippoth... the shadow of Zon-Kuthon inhabiting Dou Bral is a deity-level kyton.
Kytons occur in two places in the multiverse: Hell and the Shadow Plane. They're older than devils. Souls don't become kytons.
Also note that petitioners cannot become angels. Angels exist independently of the present-cosmos. Sarenrae is a deity-level angel.
So now we've got a base world of qlippoth, kytons, proteans(?, see below), and angels. Angels claim to have exterminated a similar evil-outsider, but what it is, and whether it actually occurred, isn't known.
Finally, petitioners (i.e. mortal souls) can become proteans and aeons, so unless proteans changed themselves so that they can use souls (and the qlippoth falied to do so), they're younger than they admit to being.
About what, specifically, am I wrong? The philosophical meaning of "nothing"? The Big Bang theory? I know I really shouldn't bother, but hey, let's see what you come up with (I imagine - cue dramatic music - Nothing!).
no..you're just wrong. But as you say, to each their own.
stop looking for a fight. i'm not going to give you one. I think you're wrong and I agree to simply disagree. let it go.
Kytons occur in two places in the multiverse: Hell and the Shadow Plane. They're older than devils. Souls don't become kytons.
Though that doesn't imply that they're necessarily older. I'm not saying that they are or aren't, just that if they were created at some point independant of mortal souls it could have been done at any time before or after mortal souls started to appear on the planes.
Also note that petitioners cannot become angels.
I would dispute that. :)
Finally, petitioners (i.e. mortal souls) can become proteans and aeons, so unless proteans changed themselves so that they can use souls (and the qlippoth falied to do so), they're younger than they admit to being.
Well here's the catch. Proteans can make souls into proteans. They can also make air into liquid molten iron, or a tree into a bolt of lightning depending on whimsy. It doesn't absolutely mean that souls can change into proteans naturally, and any "natural" change without protean action might be a result of outside influence by the protean gods (for lack of a better word for them/it).
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Though that doesn't imply that they're necessarily older. I'm not saying that they are or aren't, just that if they were created at some point independant of mortal souls it could have been done at any time before or after mortal souls started to appear on the planes.
Kytons occur in two places in the multiverse: Hell and the Shadow Plane. They're older than devils. Souls don't become kytons.
The Bestiary implies heavily that they're older.
Also note that petitioners cannot become angels.I would dispute that. :)
Not by Bestiary 2's entry for petitioners.
Finally, petitioners (i.e. mortal souls) can become proteans and aeons, so unless proteans changed themselves so that they can use souls (and the qlippoth falied to do so), they're younger than they admit to being.Well here's the catch. Proteans can make souls into proteans. They can also make air into liquid molten iron, or a tree into a bolt of lightning depending on whimsy. It doesn't absolutely mean that souls can change into proteans naturally, and any "natural" change without protean action might be a result of outside influence by the protean gods (for lack of a better word for them/it).
But daemons and agathions and all that don't turn souls into daemons and agathions. The plane changes them. Now, the question remains whether the nature of the Maelstrom (although listed as "Limbo" in Bestiary 2) has shifted to change souls into proteans (and not into something else), but it definitely stands out there as a major ambiguity.
Given the nature of chaos, I wouldn't be opposed to there being a paradox, though; I could easily imagine a multiverse in which proteans existed before souls and souls existed before proteans.
Certainly, we may be operating on conflicting statements in the published materials and coming up with different answers in our own campaigns. That goes without saying. Myself, I'm just pointing to books and discussing the implications; our campaigns can throw all that out if we want to. I know I'm going to run with some different assumptions.
The Bestiary implies heavily that they're older.Not by Bestiary 2's entry for petitioners.
The Bestiary isn't Golarion specific. That's big.
But daemons and agathions and all that don't turn souls into daemons and agathions. The plane changes them.
I would love to say more on the first part there, but we'll have to wait on that one. So commentary by me pending BotD3's release (and post final edit content which I don't know yet).
I am actually curious what connection (if any) might exisit between Mhar (one of the Golarian specific Old Ones) and Rovagug. Mhar is supposed to be birthed from the crust of the world. Could it's "birth" trigger the release of Rovagug? Was Ravagug's imprisonment within Golorian a attempt to stall it's birth?
I am also curious about Xhamen-Dor (the other Golorian specific Old One) fell to the world as part of the assault of Azlant. Xhamen-Dor's write-up made me think about the yellowmusk creepers. Imagine if each is but a tendral of its body and with each bit of intelligence drained, Xhamen-Dor learns more of Golorian and moves one step closer to fully awakening.
Just to add my own 2 cents to the x-files thread. What if the aboleths simply missed with the Starstone or it was a test run, on dropping a space rock into the Pit of Gormuz to wake up Rovagug?
When you tell someone their opinion is wrong next time, try backing it up with thoughts of your own. It will make for a far more interesting discussion.
stop looking for a fight. i'm not going to give you one. I think you're wrong and I agree to simply disagree. let it go.
when you decide you want to participate in a discussion. don't go around waving that chip on your shoulder in everyone's face. it will make for a far more interesting thread.
just sayin' man. you seem to approach everything on this board like its a personal insult.
Maybe all of them were first, each universe on its own (proto-axis, abyss, first world ...), then the proteans dissolved the barriersThat's actually a really cool idea. If I remember right, it said in Lords of Chaos that the proteans basically "discovered" the Abyss by digging too deeply into their home realm. It would make sense if they repeated this mistake in other distant realms. I guess they're sort of like the termites of the multiverse.
I've always liked the idea of the Abyss being a 'flaw' in creation. kind of like the leftovers that sat in the fridge for too long only it got smart and decided that it had to murder everything in creation so that it could go back to sleep.
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Regarding Rovagug, I think he fits neatly in the "Outer Gods" category, along with Azatoth, Shub-Niggurath, and Nyarlathotep. Heck, maybe he's a localized avatar of Azatoth?
An interesting thing to consider about Rovagug is his power compared to the other deities. Remember, it took many gods (Sarenrae, Asmodeus, Zon-Kuthon, et al) to bind R - not kill him, just bind him. A coalition of gods had to work together to take on the Rough Beast, and he managed to permanently kill many of them in the process. That begs the question: if R is that tough, how do other Outer Gods compare? (Assuming, of course, that I'm right in calling him an Outer God).
Asmodeus, for example, is one of the oldest and most powerful gods in the Great Beyond. Was he really no match for R on his own? Or perhaps he was feigning weakness - after all, he now holds the key to R's cage. Regardless, this doesn't bode well if, say, Azatoth decided to eat Golarion.
I somehow don't see the Outer Gods as being any more concerned with the Golarion Gods than they are with the Golarion mortals. Also, you're ascribing reasoning and purpose to Azathoth. He has none. He's pure destructive impulse.
I somehow don't see the Outer Gods as being any more concerned with the Golarion Gods than they are with the Golarion mortals. Also, you're ascribing reasoning and purpose to Azathoth. He has none. He's pure destructive impulse.
If there is ever made Pathfinder Rules Encyclopaedia Azathoth's photo will be placed under Lack Of Intelligence Ability Score section. Now, dear reader, make a DC 80 Will save or suffer 2d10 points of Wisdom and Charisma drain due to overwhelming madness of seeing the Daemon Sultan...
Some more thoughts on a possible way to put the difference between the Dark Tapestry and the gods and planes in perspective:
Assume that each of the elemental, energy, outer planes (or planar layer), etc. is about the size of a solar system. Compared to a single world, they are tremendously vast (golf ball vs. football stadium complex and parking areas). There are also thousands of planes/planar layers known to mortals (possibly millions if you count all the smaller planes and demi-planes).
Compared to the billions of stars in a single galaxy of the Material Plane, that's a very small pond. The Outer Gods and Great Old Ones are looking at a much bigger picture than the relatively few worlds that mortals live on, or even what the gods are doing in the planes.
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Another thing to consider about the size of the universe as compared to the size of the outer planes: Although the universe is many orders of magnitude larger, it is almost entirely empty. The planes, on the other hand, are almost entirely full. The outer planes may be a bit like a universe that never expanded.
Another thing to consider about the size of the universe as compared to the size of the outer planes: Although the universe is many orders of magnitude larger, it is almost entirely empty.
The Outer Sphere is massively, massively larger than the Material plane. Same with the elemental planes of the Inner Sphere as well.
The entire physical universe fits inside the smallest inner plane.
That tells me that both entities are aware of Golarion... and when an Outer God is aware of you, that's never a good thing.
But is that better or worse than when you're aware of an Outer God?
The Outer Sphere is massively, massively larger than the Material plane. Same with the elemental planes of the Inner Sphere as well.
The entire physical universe fits inside the smallest inner plane.
Sorry, but that would mean that mortal life and the material plane would have been overrun eons ago. There would be no other logical result when elemental beings and outsiders would be able to send/devote billions or even trillions of entities to take over each world on the Material Plane. Only if the elemental beings/outsiders were ignorant of the existance of the Material Plane, which they most definitely are not, would this be avoided.
The Inner and Outer Planes are massive when compared to any single world, no question. If you want to posit that they are larger than the Material Plane, which is so vast that it takes billions of years for light to travel from one side to another and contains countless galaxies, stars, and worlds, then the Material would not have lasted even this long.
Sorry, but that would mean that mortal life and the material plane would have been overrun eons ago. There would be no other logical result when elemental beings and outsiders would be able to send/devote billions or even trillions of entities to take over each world on the Material Plane.
You're assuming they can.
Sorry, but that would mean that mortal life and the material plane would have been overrun eons ago. There would be no other logical result when elemental beings and outsiders would be able to send/devote billions or even trillions of entities to take over each world on the Material Plane.You're assuming they can.
And just what was/is preventing them? Especially considering that many can take class levels to learn spells (not to mention the ones with innate planar travel abilities).
When you're discussing the number of inhabitants that the Inner and Outer Planes can support if they truly are that large, even 0.1% of the population on one of the Inner or Outer Planes with the capability of planar travel would outnumber all of mortal life on the Material; especially considering that mortal life is such a recent development in terms of the multiverse.
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And just what was/is preventing them?
There was a thread sometime back that talked about this. Couldn't find it, but I'll keep looking.
Here's my thoughts on what keeps the material realms "safe" from outsider invasion.
Aeons: The don't care.
Agathons, Angels, Archons, Azatas: Although they may not agree with how life conducts itself, they agree that it has a right to do so how it will. Archons and some angels may actually see unfortunate events as all part of a greater plan, i.e. the raid of a city leading to the creation of a hero who saves the world.
Daemons: The mortal world is already a part of their plans, a breeding grounds for the delicious souls they crave. Although many daemons would love to wreak havok on the mortal plane and pig themselves on mortal souls, they're kept in check by the Horsemen, who are waiting for the End Times.
Demons: Demons don't ally with one another. They'd love to destroy the material plane, but they're far too busy slaughtering one another. Note that there was a time when Desna descended to the abyss to kill a Demon Lord in their own realm, and the result was the most terrifying unification of demon forces ever known. But baring something like that, they're pretty occupied.
Devils: Don't really want or need to invade the material plane. Maybe someday, but right now it's doing exactly what it's suppose to be doing - sending corrupt mortal souls to Hell.
Elementals, Genies: They already have their perfect realms of pure fire/air/mud/whatever. Why bother taking over some little uncomfortable dirtball. Plus, whenever you visit, you seem to end up with an itty bitty living space...
Inevetibles: Busy with the proteans.
Proteans: Busy with the inevetibles.
Quilppoth: Possibly the most dangerous. Driven, destructive, dangerous. Also few in number, and very far away. Their big gambit was Rovagug, and he's currently chained away. Still a serious threat.
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I always thought of the Material Plane as all possible mortal worlds. Think of the Material Plane as a foam where each bubble is it's own universe with it's own natural laws. In some magic never existed and in others high level tech cannot function. Some of these universes are predatory and readily absorb nearby universes while others are completely blocked from outside intrusion. Our entire universe as we understand it would be but one of these bubbles. The spaces between these bubbles could allow for travel between them; however, some legends say that it is HIGHLY flammable...
At the center of each of these universes sits Azathoth and his entourage.
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Our entire universe as we understand it would be but one of these bubbles.
And if they are like quarks, at any given moment, our universe may or may not actually exist, or be temporarily unavailable, as the universe where Spock has a beard is currently occupying that space...
"No, the spell didn't fail. Your teleport took you *exactly* to the spot you designated. It's just that 'here' isn't where you left it..."
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Our entire universe as we understand it would be but one of these bubbles.And if they are like quarks, at any given moment, our universe may or may not actually exist, or be temporarily unavailable, as the universe where Spock has a beard is currently occupying that space...
"No, the spell didn't fail. Your teleport took you *exactly* to the spot you designated. It's just that 'here' isn't where you left it..."
I love these boards. Where else can I get a discussion on Lovecraftian Mythos and quantum physics in the same thread.
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I love these boards. Where else can I get a discussion on Lovecraftian Mythos and quantum physics in the same thread.Lovecraft himself was, for an amatuer, pretty up-to-date on scientific theories for his time. And it often shows in his writing.
Ken Hite makes a decent argument that "At the Mountains of Madness" was less a 'scary story' than a cutting-edge techno-thriller - more Michael Crichton or Tom Clancy than Stephen King or Dean Koontz.
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Lovecraft himself was, for an amatuer, pretty up-to-date on scientific theories for his time. And it often shows in his writing.
Plus, there was an article linked a while back on Boing Boing, about how the descriptions of Azathoth would accurately model a higher-dimensional being as viewed through a "human" perspective. Good stuff!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Actually, the planar maps of infinite planes make me think of Doctor Who.
Doctor: Well there are all these planes, inner and outer, all together, nestled.
Rory: Like an Onion! The prime is the heart and it's surrounded by the elemental, then the astral then the outer planes.
Doctor: Yes! Yes! Well, No! Not really. But if it makes you feel better... Forget the onion!
Actually, the planar maps of infinite planes make me think of Doctor Who.
** spoiler omitted **
What about a parfait? Everybody likes parfaits. You ever offer someone a parfait and he was like, "Hell no, I don't want no parfait!"?
Creative Director
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Ken Hite makes a decent argument that "At the Mountains of Madness" was less a 'scary story' than a cutting-edge techno-thriller - more Michael Crichton or Tom Clancy than Stephen King or Dean Koontz.I love these boards. Where else can I get a discussion on Lovecraftian Mythos and quantum physics in the same thread.Lovecraft himself was, for an amatuer, pretty up-to-date on scientific theories for his time. And it often shows in his writing.
Quite true. And "The Colour Out of Space" is a pretty good anticipation of the fears of nuclear contamination. And "The Whisperer in the Darkness" is one of the first "the aliens are among us already" stories, I believe.
A lot of his stories are indeed better classified as science fiction than they are horror. They certainly straddle the line between the two genres (and sometimes throw the fantasy genre in there as well).
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A lot of his stories are indeed better classified as science fiction than they are horror. They certainly straddle the line between the two genres (and sometimes throw the fantasy genre in there as well).
To me, it seemed that quite a few of his stories flowed from some sort of reaction to mankind discovering that not only was the earth not the center of the universe (and far, far older than mankind, and likely to be around, blithely going about it's business, millenia after mankind was dust), that it was a tiny insignificant part of that universe, and that if there was anything 'out there,' it didn't really care about us at all.
It sometimes felt like H.P. was flailing about in the aftermath of Neitzche's 'God is dead' declaration, which led to Lovecraft making stories set in worlds, were, if there were 'gods' at all, they were incomprehensible and maddening things, and that any belief or philosophy or faith thing that one might draw comfort from was probably just a lie.
One man's (very entertaining) descent into immortalizing the realization of his own insignificance, in the cosmic scheme of things, and railing against that understanding.
Or, yanno, maybe not.
HPL took note of the possibility of the ninth planet, Pluto, when he wrote of Yuggoth as the (one of) home of the MiGo.
Curiously (in relation to the Carrion Crown AP) its moons are Charon and Hydra...
Apostae seems like an ideal candidate as the home of the MiGo in Golarion...