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Lovecraft himself was, for an amatuer, pretty up-to-date on scientific theories for his time. And it often shows in his writing.
For example, in AtMoM he has the city's historical inscriptions confirming Wegener's continental drift hypothesis. Seems kind of prophetic, especially when compared to the writings of a Certain Other SF Author who started his own religion.
Way I've been running it, having run a few of the APs and read any info I can get my hands on, to the delight of my FLGS, is as follows:
From the simple leather-bound diary of Baron Ferrick of Southshire, found in his quarters after his exile from the kingdom for undisclosed crimes of undisclosed magnitude:
"In the beginning there was something, that was also nothing. This not-thing is sometimes called Yogg-Sothoth in these times. It was the only existence, it was all existence, and it lasted for an eternity and for no time at all. It was whole, it was complete, and it was perfect.
And then it was shattered. Perhaps in its own not-existence it stretched too far, like a man dislocating his shoulder. Perhaps it was simply time for it to shatter, like a tree bearing fruit in the spring. But it was split. A portion of its essence bled away, as did a portion of its not-essence. These pools are now commonly called the Positive and Negative Energy planes. Split in two, Yogg-Sothoth, or the Dark Tapestry as it is sometimes known, now existed as a physical body and an intangible essence. The physical body is the material plane, a limitless expanse of stars, planets, cosmos, and galaxies. His essence is time itself, stretching through all things, infinite even when viewed from the infinite.
Much like a the shadow of a man left by an atomic blast upon a wall, the sundering of Yogg left shadows of the byproducts of creation and entropy upon the walls of reality. These shadows became elemental planes, reminiscent of parts of the material, concentrated, but limited. No, if I had meant to say THE elemental planes, I would have. There are multitudes, and they are tied to the regions they were spawned from.
On those planets and in the dark places, things grew. Some were tiny and benign, somewhat like the mitochondria of our own world. But some grew, and grew, and eventually they were not so tiny or so benign. These would come to be known as Outer Gods and Great Old Ones. They burrow through Yogg-Sothoths flesh, burn through his veins, and chew upon his bones. But just as a man may not pluck the virus from his tissues, so too is the Dark Tapestry unable to extract the creatures which torment it. Perhaps Azathoth is like an antibody, scouring the cosmos for the other beings which torment is father/host. Perhaps it is just one more of the tormentors.
In one region of the cosmos, a small branch of a limited galaxy, some of the lesser inhabitants, safely and distantly removed from their other, greater neighbors, began to crawl and fight and breed. The abyss formed in the space beyond space, a whirling composite echo of the frenzied proto-thoughts of primordial creatures struggling to live amidst pain and terror and death. As the eons went by, the creatures became more advanced, and their minds became capable of more, of understanding the world, of remembering and forgetting, of affection and rage. A new Maelstrom erupted in the beyond, and creatures of chaos, of change, crawled from it, curious and unfettered.
Soon the mortal creatures grew even more capable in their understanding, and they thought of hating, of loving, of obeying, of rebelling. New spaces formed in the beyond, new realms which produces their own offspring to look upon reality. These spawned realms were able to look about and see the realm that had created them.
What happened then? Who knows. Some say those of the spawned realms looked upon ours and were jealous of it, for they were created of us, and without even our intent. They were a byproduct of our existence, a sort of shed hair or spoor. The thought would have been quite humiliating, would it not? Perhaps they wished to erase the world that was and create one of their own, to reverse their cosmic roles. Perhaps they tried once in a realm created by their own thoughts, a first draft of sorts. Perhaps this realm was not of their own thoughts, but of the other half of Yogg-Sothoth, his essence rather than his body, time rather than form. Perhaps they simply instated themselves as lords, using the powers granted to them by our own thoughts to cow and impress us, subtly and not so subtly driving us to reinforce them with more thought.
It matters not what those who proclaim themselves gods choose to do. My work will return Yogg-Sothoth's severed essence to his material form, at least if only in a small part. And in that small part, he will be protected from the burrowing torments of the others. Perhaps I may even immunize enough of him to be recognized by him. Perhaps not. Many will seek to oppose me. To them, my work is blasphemous. But what can be expected of those who crawl and fight and breed in a single life upon a single planet in a single solar system. They simply lack... perspective."
Damn...this is both interesting and kinda horrifying. While I do like Lovecraftian themes, I find it a bit much to add such strong overtones to an adventure, especially when you consider that no mortal is supposed to mess with these beings. If they decide to screw Golarion over, not even the Player Characters can do much to stop them without losing all the suspension of disbelief that was left. Unless you get a VERY good explanation to how you just punched out Cthulhu.
Before anyone jumps at me, the main problem is EVERYTHING being Eldritch Abominations, not the fact that I wanna stab them in the face.
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Before anyone jumps at me, the main problem is EVERYTHING being Eldritch Abominations, not the fact that I wanna stab them in the face.
I'd concentrate on what I consider to be the defining character trait of the 'Old Ones.'
They don't care about us. 'Vast, cool and unsympathetic' is an understatement.
Their *cultists* might want to unleash unholy armaggedon upon the world, but the entities themselves really don't give a crap, and are profoundly uninterested in popping all the way over here to eat the planet, no matter how much their crazy cultists caper and chant.
If some Great Old Ones cultist hits 17th level in 'Cleric of Shub-Niggurath' and attempts to gate his patron in, his patron will be 'sir-not-appearing-in-this-adventure' because, 17th level or not, Shub-Niggurath is just not that into you.
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Thanks for not jumping at me. I might be a fan of Lovecraftian stuff, but sometimes that part of it just doesn't cut it for me. Then again, it might be due to this discussion being associated with Pathfinder, and I can't mesh these two concepts too well.
But yeah, I would find that a funny moment for the players. The Big Bad Cleric tries to direct the wrath of his alien master at the players as an ace up his sleeve, only to realize his patron doesn't give a damn...after which the players stab him in the face.
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Yeah I have reservations about Lovecraft elements too.
This is the thing, Call of Cthulhu as a game is an excellent exploration of the mythos. The entire game is set up to explore the hopeless reality that exists as the central idea behind Lovecraftian horror, namely you as a human are insignificant and your race and whole way of life is doomed. That's pretty harsh right there.
In CoC that's great because that's how the game is supposed to work. However when you apply this stuff to Golarion things get a little more problematic. In general Pathfinder characters exist to stop the big bad evil thing from destroying the world. The setting exists to provide opportunities to fight against evil and tyranny in all its myriad forms. Of course you can play evil or mercenary characters but the default assumption (as far as I see it) is that the PC's exist to stop evil from triumphing.
Therein lies your problem. Intrinsic in the Mythos is the concept that you can't prevent your hopeless fate, you can merely postpone it. With all the other threats in Golarion, (Tar Baphon, Ydersius, The Runelords, hell even Rovagug) there is the implication that they are not unstoppable, that they can be destroyed. OK it may not be easy but this truth is the assumption which permeates the system. You are the heroes, the situation is dire but it isn't hopeless and only you can remove the threat which has arisen.
So by introducing Mythos elements you combine two intrinsically opposed positions. On one side there is hope and the understanding that whatever opposes the players they can stop it; on the other side there is no hope, one can merely postpone the inevitable.
That juxtaposition of two mutually exclusive positions is what gives me pause when it comes to the Mythos in Golarion. If you want you can read anything in Golarion as relating to the Mythos. However, if you do that it turns the central belief of the setting on it's head. Worse it makes everything in the setting subserviant to the Mythos, not even the gods can rival the power of the Old Ones. That's my central issue, too much mythos makes Golarion not Golarion.
I don't share the pessimistic world view espoused by the Mythos when it comes to Golarion. So in my view Desna is not an Old One, the Starstone is merely a rock powered by the forces of creation and the stars will never, ever be right.
I was speaking with a metaphor of sorts with the "punch Cthulhu in the face" example. What I was getting at is pretty much summed up in FallofCamelot's post, emphasis on the part that the players shouldn't feel like they really aren't changing anything. I mean, why even bother to go adventuring if the Old Ones will just decide to yawn in your direction and you die instantly?
It's the kind of scenario you'd get if you played a Planescape campaign with the Lady of Pain as the main villain: No matter what you do, you just CANNOT WIN in any way (and by that I mean not even a temporary victory after a little skirmish). All she needs to do is look at you (or just think about you), and you are hit by a "death, no saves" spell the level of infinity. Your characters should have just stayed at home and weaved baskets or something, because evil wins by default.
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I hope not. The chaos stuff in warhammer ultimately made our d&d game that was set there fizzle out.
I hope it will be the case that the Lovecraft elements will be ignorable in the main setting. I like the Lovecraft stuff, but I dont like it in my fantasy settings. Keep your chocolate out of my peanut butter too, while youre at it. :)
Sure, there's also that side to all this, but are you going to force your view down my throat or are you going to agree with me now when I say "to each his own" ? Some people want a good ending, others don't (on the same note, not everyone liked Call of Cthulhu either). You're no better nor worse for favoring one over the other, but you would be an a-hole if you tried to tell people that your style of story-telling is the only right one.
I hope it will be the case that the Lovecraft elements will be ignorable in the main setting. I like the Lovecraft stuff, but I dont like it in my fantasy settings. Keep your chocolate out of my peanut butter too, while youre at it. :)
This. ^^
Though if you asked me, I'd want the peanut butter replaced with chocolate. Never really liked the former myself. XD
Going over this thread, I have to say that in the game I run, I've been debating some of the mythos for an addition. Myself, I want to add this in. There are force out there beyond comprehension, who simply don't live by the same rules, and our rules can't apply to them. At the same time, there needs to be a chance at defending yourself. No, you're not going to punch out these forces. But you do have a chance to pull a fasst one, undo his work, and if you're lucky, boop him on the nose as you get away to safety. The best to be hoped for from gods and epic level characters is a cosmic stalemate. "You shall not pass, and our henchmen can beat up your henchmen."
Going over this thread, I have to say that in the game I run, I've been debating some of the mythos for an addition. Myself, I want to add this in. There are force out there beyond comprehension, who simply don't live by the same rules, and our rules can't apply to them. At the same time, there needs to be a chance at defending yourself. No, you're not going to punch out these forces. But you do have a chance to pull a fasst one, undo his work, and if you're lucky, boop him on the nose as you get away to safety. The best to be hoped for from gods and epic level characters is a cosmic stalemate. "You shall not pass, and our henchmen can beat up your henchmen."
I'd be fine with that too. :)