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Wanted to share an observation I’ve come across while playing a natural weapon ranger and researching it on this board.
Unless you are willing to dump an obscene amount of cash and magic into your weapons Natural Attacks are always going to be a better choice if you can get them.
We seem to have a system where for regular damage output the priority goes Natural Attacks ->Ranged ->Iterative attacks. (Ranged would be tops but it has dead zone issues, Multiple Attribute Dependencies and too many concealment/range penalties). Optimally ranged is better but normally it's harder to pull off the full damage it's capable off.
Before you say it yes Iterative scales better at higher levels (past 12th or so) but most of that is spent just playing catch up and still requires an enormous expenditure of effort to equal what natural weapons have been doing since the beginning.
Here's the understanding I've come to realize about Natural Attacks and why I think it's a superior combat choice.
It has the highest number of constants with the highest synchronicity between attacks.
It's the quickest build to get multiple attacks and any variables thrown at it affects them all equally so any damage/hit buff is multiplied by the number of natural attacks with no penalties.
a). Faster Resolution = All attacks are at equal values to track (primary or secondary)
b). Easier Damage Control = Only requires 1 stat to worry about for hit & damage
c). Quicker Realization = Almost immediately starts playing the way you want.
d). Cheaper = Weapons are free and any gear you buy affects all of them equally.
Iterative and ranged attacks are the exact opposite:
a). Slow Resolution = All attacks suffer from completely different penalties
b). Complex Damage Control = Require multiple stats to track, easy to miss changes
c). Slow Realization = Unable to play the character you want until after at least 6th lvl.
d). Expensive = constant weapon/gear upgrades, multiple sets needed makes this a High resource build.
Natural weapons give you more freedom to try out the "sub-optimal" feats/skills/items you can never find room for on the other 2 styles while still being able to match their DPR. It's a far more comfortable build style for early to mid-game (which honestly is where 90% of all games are actually played).
And the biggest draw is since it’s new it doesn’t suffer from the rules history of confusion that iterative attacks have.
Now I will admit that iterative attacks will have a higher POTENTIAL maximum damage and is more visually appropriate. But the same reason most UFC matches end in grapples and crotch punches it’s simple; You want to win who cares how pretty it looks.
You've made some generalization there that don't always apply.
A) true most of the time but if you've been playing PF for any length of time you can do the -5 -10.... mental math pretty quickly.
B) not sure what your saying here, a natural attack that uses Dex to hit still uses STR for damage same as a finesse type melee weapon or ranged weapons. in both cases STR melee builds uses STR for both attack and damage.
C) Maybe its just me but the number of attacks has never limited my character concept.
D) I disagree natural weapon are cheaper, if you want to actually enchanting them your looking at a very expensive amulet of mighty fists, weapon enchantments are actually cheaper per point of enchantment. plus weapons can be enchanted to effectively +10, natural weapons unless you've got class abilities to help are limited to +5 from an amulet. this also uses up your amulet slot.
two weapon fighting iterative attacks are also important for builds that want a critical hit focus because the more attacks you can make a turn the more chances you have of making a critical, not to mention you need weapons to get those wider threat ranges.
Natural attacks are also less defined in the rules than iterative attacks making them more difficult for GM to deal with. Case in point is something like the alchemist, 3 natural prime attacks and a boatload of ways to up the damage die. You can end up with some crazy numbers for single attacks like 4d6 and 5d6, making for 20d6 greater vital strikes.
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You've made some generalization there that don't always apply.
A) true most of the time but if you've been playing PF for any length of time you can do the -5 -10.... mental math pretty quickly.
It's not the -5 -10 that complicates things, it's more of the -2 for light weapon and the +1 for this weapon group, or this gets the weapon focus bonus but that one doesn't, etc that slows things down.
B) not sure what your saying here, a natural attack that uses Dex to hit still uses STR for damage same as a finesse type melee weapon or ranged weapons. in both cases STR melee builds uses STR for both attack and damage.
Using a natural weapon you should never have to use dex to attack, it's always going to be Strength since you don't need to qualify for any TWF feats. TWF builds require too much Dexterity and suck up feats and attribute points that would be better spent elsewhere.
Nat Weps Pump everything into strength for the + to hit and damage and go to town like the 2hd fighter it's more efficient for the same or more attacks.C) Maybe its just me but the number of attacks has never limited my character concept.
If my concept is to be the awesome ginsu of doom dispatching foes with both hands I'm not interested in waiting till max level to get all my attacks. Natural Weapon I get them NOW and can play the style of warrior I want for the next 18 levels.
D) I disagree natural weapon are cheaper, if you want to actually enchanting them your looking at a very expensive amulet of mighty fists, weapon enchantments are actually cheaper per point of enchantment. plus weapons can be enchanted to effectively +10, natural weapons unless you've got class abilities to help are limited to +5 from an amulet. this also uses up your amulet slot.
Natural weapons are cheaper to enchant because you are giving up your neck slot. For instance to get flaming on all your attacks with manufactured weapons costs 8000 gold (flaming is effectively +2 for 8 grand a piece and if you TWF you have to buy 2 of em) but the amulet is a flat 5 grand and it affects all Natural attacks. Flaming Claw/Claw/Bite effectively costs 1600 per attack. Gobs cheaper and the more natural attacks you get the cheaper it becomes to enchant them with whatever you want.
two weapon fighting iterative attacks are also important for builds that want a critical hit focus because the more attacks you can make a turn the more chances you have of making a critical, not to mention you need weapons to get those wider threat ranges.
And this is my point, the two weapon fighting builds take longer to get the same number of attacks, have a lower chance to hit and suffer from MAD so their default hits do less standard damage. The larger crit ranges can close the gap in DPR but are undependable. Natural weapons are usually more consistent & higher damage.
Natural attacks are also less defined in the rules than iterative attacks making them more difficult for GM to deal with. Case in point is something like the alchemist, 3 natural prime attacks and a boatload of ways to up the damage die. You can end up with some crazy numbers for single attacks like 4d6 and 5d6, making for 20d6 greater vital strikes.
That's actually what I said, higher, faster & easier damage with a minimum of rules getting in the way. It's no worse then throwing any other optimized build at a GM this one just has a lot more room to take the roleplaying stuff too.
-2 for lights +1 for weapons are all bonuses you can factor into your attack bonus before combat even begins considering that during combat other effects such as dazzled, fatigued etc will modify your attack rolls you either doing math or doing math and honestly not playing a character because of a little extra math .....
In your case of your ranger he doesn't need Dex to get his TWT feats either. There also no reason you can't make a Dex natural weapon character they'd benefit from the higher AC and might fit the flavor of their character more. sub optimal but quite workable with its own benefits.
To attack with both hand you need only 1 feat two wepaon fighting which is very easy to qualify for a mere Dex 15 and can be taken at first level. Hell even without TWF you can attack with nasty penalties OR you can fight with a weapon in each hand choosing which to attack with each round. mechanically its only one attack but with a bit of descriptive narrative of your attack you can make him sound like he's doing alot more.
(no one should ever feel they need to roleplay the actual mechanics of a character at any given time there's no rule that says you can't fluff your character beyond the raw mechanics)
Interesting that you pick the one example which favours your argument and ignore the reality with pricing ;). sure weapons need a minimum +1 to start with but shortly after that the amulet loses on pricing.
For example
+2 Flamming Sword costs 18,000 gold
+1 Flamming Amulet costs 20,000 gold
+3 Flamming sword costs 32,000 gold
+2 Flamming Amulet costs 45'000 gold
+4 Flamming sword costs 50'000 gold
+3 Flamming amulet costs 80,0000 gold
And this is comparing weapons which are effectively +1 better than the amulet if you werre to take a straight comparison
+5 Amulet = 125'000gold
+5 sword = 50'000 gold (and buying 2 costs 100'000 gold)
Pound for pound weapon enchantment is cheaper for what you get. Not only that you can eventually get a +5 Vorpal Sword or a +5 Holy Speed Sword, with an amulet your stuck at a total of +5.
You've also neglected the fact that a two handed fighter is also a very easy iterative attacker that will outstrip you natural attacker at the mid to high levels as well
What your really saying is I want my character to be awesome from the start, which is fine , but not everyone is like that many of us are quite happy to let our character evolve and grow into their awesomeness. Its very easy to make character which are insanely awesome at levels 1-5 but they tend to end up mediocre in the mid to high levels.
Another thing to mention is that natural attacks also have a hidden downside you may not have considered
e.g. if your playing a good aligned character a simple Protection against Good spell totally negates your ability to attack. you can't touch the warded creature. plus there are other spells and effects that will trigger if you touch the creature which you have to do.
The GM may also impose on the fly effects for example say you bite into a particular vile rotting creature with a bite attack. the Gm may say since you've tasted the putrid rotting flesh you need to make a fort save or be nauseated for 1 round.
At the end of the day the reason different build exists is to make it possible to play a character you want to play just because one might be mechanically better than the other, or more economical or simplified is not the only reason to always chose it over another. This is a role playing game after all
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-2 for lights +1 for weapons are all bonuses you can factor into your attack bonus before combat even begins considering that during combat other effects such as dazzled, fatigued etc will modify your attack rolls you either doing math or doing math and honestly not playing a character because of a little extra math .....
In your case of your ranger he doesn't need Dex to get his TWT feats either. There also no reason you can't make a Dex natural weapon character they'd benefit from the higher AC and might fit the flavor of their character more. sub optimal but quite workable with its own benefits.
To attack with both hand you need only 1 feat two wepaon fighting which is very easy to qualify for a mere Dex 15 and can be taken at first level. Hell even without TWF you can attack with nasty penalties OR you can fight with a weapon in each hand choosing which to attack with each round. mechanically its only one attack but with a bit of descriptive narrative of your attack you can make him sound like he's doing alot more.
(no one should ever feel they need to roleplay the actual mechanics of a character at any given time there's no rule that says you can't fluff your character beyond the raw mechanics)Interesting that you pick the one example which favours your argument and ignore the reality with pricing ;). sure weapons need a minimum +1 to start with but shortly after that the amulet loses on pricing.
For example
+2 Flamming Sword costs 18,000 gold
+1 Flamming Amulet costs 20,000 gold+3 Flamming sword costs 32,000 gold
+2 Flamming Amulet costs 45'000 gold+4 Flamming sword costs 50'000 gold
+3 Flamming amulet costs 80,0000 goldAnd this is comparing weapons which are effectively +1 better than the amulet if you werre to take a straight comparison
+5 Amulet = 125'000gold
+5 sword = 50'000 gold (and buying 2 costs 100'000 gold)Pound for pound weapon enchantment is cheaper for what you get. Not only that you can eventually get a +5 Vorpal Sword or a +5 Holy Speed Sword, with an...
The comment was never that doing the math is hard or too hard simply that it's easier and faster this way. If you play in a large group or have limited playtime anything that speeds up resolution is appreciated.
As for your cash breakdown you made some assumptions that are a bit off, especially assuming you'd ever put a +1 on an amulet. The advantage of the amulet is that you don't ever need or really want to buy the +1. It's a nice perk but more of a waste of cash considering we are are multi-weapon fighters with no penalties on the attack roll and don't need specific +'s to bypass DR.
As for the protection from Good (evil, chaotic, etc) it doesn't quite work that way. That protection only counts against SUMMONED creatures of that type which PC's shouldn't be (your campaign may be different)
Yes it is a RPG so you can play however you want to, but at the end of the day you're character has a job that needs to be done, namely removing that target from this world before he does it to you. My way lets that be done faster and easier then the standard while still leaving more of your limited resources available for the non-combat uses you want. (Mine usually go for drinks, wenches property damage repair bills)
Hey Mathwei,
This is an interesting discussion that I would like to be involved in, but I'm not quite sure what a build would look like. In particular, I'm not sure how you'd ever get above two attacks a round. Could you spec up a natural weapon ranger for us, lvls 1, 6, and 12 or so would suffice for my curiosity...
The comment was never that doing the math is hard or too hard simply that it's easier and faster this way. If you play in a large group or have limited playtime anything that speeds up resolution is appreciated.
I'm playing a ghoul in a game tonight. Her attack routine with her claw/claw/bite is no more complicated than her attack routine with her other weapons (though her other weapons have a higher +hit due to being masterwork).
At higher levels, iterative attacks and their modifiers are counted ahead of time and noted on the sheet, with only circumstantial modifiers being applied on the fly. If you're waiting until you're in the heat of battle to apply stuff like masterwork or weapon focus, you're "doing it wrong". :P
As for your cash breakdown you made some assumptions that are a bit off, especially assuming you'd ever put a +1 on an amulet. The advantage of the amulet is that you don't ever need or really want to buy the +1. It's a nice perk but more of a waste of cash considering we are are multi-weapon fighters with no penalties on the attack roll and don't need specific +'s to bypass DR.
If I get an amulet (and believe me, I will) for my ghoul, it will indeed be a +5 amulet. The extra hit and damage is enough to warrant it, but the main reason is for piercing damage reduction. It's absolutely essential. I don't know anything about a "natural weapon ranger", but natural attacks do not automatically bypass damage reduction under normal conditions. Likewise, spells like align weapon only work on weapons, so you need the +5 amulet to break through alignment resistances, or you need the opposing creature subtype.
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The comment was never that doing the math is hard or too hard simply that it's easier and faster this way. If you play in a large group or have limited playtime anything that speeds up resolution is appreciated.I'm playing a ghoul in a game tonight. Her attack routine with her claw/claw/bite is no more complicated than her attack routine with her other weapons (though her other weapons have a higher +hit due to being masterwork).
At higher levels, iterative attacks and their modifiers are counted ahead of time and noted on the sheet, with only circumstantial modifiers being applied on the fly. If you're waiting until you're in the heat of battle to apply stuff like masterwork or weapon focus, you're "doing it wrong". :P
As for your cash breakdown you made some assumptions that are a bit off, especially assuming you'd ever put a +1 on an amulet. The advantage of the amulet is that you don't ever need or really want to buy the +1. It's a nice perk but more of a waste of cash considering we are are multi-weapon fighters with no penalties on the attack roll and don't need specific +'s to bypass DR.If I get an amulet (and believe me, I will) for my ghoul, it will indeed be a +5 amulet. The extra hit and damage is enough to warrant it, but the main reason is for piercing damage reduction. It's absolutely essential. I don't know anything about a "natural weapon ranger", but natural attacks do not automatically bypass damage reduction under normal conditions. Likewise, spells like align weapon only work on weapons, so you need the +5 amulet to break through alignment resistances, or you need the opposing creature subtype.
It's really the circumstantial modifiers that upset the math apple cart that throws things off. Only having to track 1 to hit number makes it slightly easier and faster.
Natural weapons bypass DR in a much easier way, take the feat Eldritch Claws and all your attacks are considered Silver & Magic for DR purposes and Nat weapons use the spell Align Fang and Weapon Blanches to get through other DR. Takes about the same time as switching weapons so a bit cheaper then buying a specific weapon just to get through DR which is a situational issue really.
A +5 amulet is kind of a waste, it's 125K for 5 extra damage and a better chance to hit. Those are good things but not worth that price. I'd rather take something like a Amulet of Holy Speed for the same price and get +2d6 damage on my 6 or 10 attacks per round (depends on how your DM rules it) or take a Amulet of Shocking Brilliant Energy to ignore armor to and bring the pain.
Of course, you should mention that this entire discussion involves playing a non-standard race, which may or may not be allowed by any particular GM. Using non-standard races with a generous GM can easily lead to some spectacular builds in any number of classes, if you don't mind testing the borders of cheesy Munchkinland.
Of course, you should mention that this entire discussion involves playing a non-standard race, which may or may not be allowed by any particular GM. Using non-standard races with a generous GM can easily lead to some spectacular builds in any number of classes, if you don't mind testing the borders of cheesy Munchkinland.
Or using a barbarian... or dragon disciple... or half orc... or witch...
or any combination of the above.
half orc (toothy)
Barbarian 2, witch 5, Eldritch Knight
Beast totem
Prehensile Hair
Gives us claw, claw, bite, hair
Another method would be to simply use the new summoner archetype.
There's also the Alchemist, or a shifter ranger, or a druid with wildshape...
Changeling in Carrion Crown...
I get your point, guys, but the OP was specifically talking about a ranger build, with an effective claw/claw/bite routine, which is not achievable with the standard races. I'm sure there are any number of other edge cases folks can throw up, but they are just that, edge cases.
It's really the circumstantial modifiers that upset the math apple cart that throws things off. Only having to track 1 to hit number makes it slightly easier and faster.
Natural weapons bypass DR in a much easier way, take the feat Eldritch Claws and all your attacks are considered Silver & Magic for DR purposes and Nat weapons use the spell Align Fang and Weapon Blanches to get through other DR. Takes about the same time as switching weapons so a bit cheaper then buying a specific weapon just to get through DR which is a situational issue really.
A +5 amulet is kind of a waste, it's 125K for 5 extra damage and a better chance to hit. Those are good things but not worth that price. I'd rather take something like a Amulet of Holy Speed for the same price and get +2d6 damage on my 6 or 10 attacks per round (depends on how your DM rules it) or take a Amulet of Shocking Brilliant Energy to ignore armor to and bring the pain.
I'm amused that "damage reduction" is situational, and yet you choose to put Holy on your weapons, when it only affects 1/3rd of possible alignments without house rules, while costing the same as a +2 modifier.
Also, those elemental enhancements tend to get pretty useless are higher levels where it seems like everything has energy resistance 5 or better to almost everything. Hyperbole a bit, I know, but it seems like that sometimes.
However, I like the speed weapon idea. That might actually be worth trying to get for my ghast. I don't really have to deal any damage, just land hits and hope things biff their saves so my team mate can whack them with his waraxe as a coup de grace. Hitting more often (and thus forcing more and more saves) would be convenient. :P
I get your point, guys, but the OP was specifically talking about a ranger build, with an effective claw/claw/bite routine, which is not achievable with the standard races. I'm sure there are any number of other edge cases folks can throw up, but they are just that, edge cases.
Yes it is... natural attack ranger can take a feat that gives him claws, and half orc for the bite again.
I really can't see calling it 'edge cases' when well over a third of the classes have the means of gaining natural attacks without going to the 'odd' stuff.
@The conversation on what to put on an amulet of the mighty fists:
I did a beast totem barbarian with animal fury that had an amulet of the mighty fist(furious) which was really nice.
Another option would be to have an allying amulet -- when you aren't using your natural attacks you have the enhancement bonus thrown over to some other weapon.
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Hey Mathwei,
This is an interesting discussion that I would like to be involved in, but I'm not quite sure what a build would look like. In particular, I'm not sure how you'd ever get above two attacks a round. Could you spec up a natural weapon ranger for us, lvls 1, 6, and 12 or so would suffice for my curiosity...
A natural weapon ranger is just like a normal Switch Hitter Ranger (see Treantmonk's Guide) at first level except he plays an Half-Orc and takes the toothy racial to get a primary bite attack (easiest way but any race can get the bite, there's like half a dozen ways to do it) and get your strength as high as you can.
At second he picks the natural weapon combat style and takes the claws option from aspect of the beast giving him 3 Primary Natural Attacks at full strength (only 1D4 damage but the damage die is not really important).
This is where your damage output goes through the roof since you have 3 attacks at full BAB + Strength to hit. You have a great chance to hit and do massive damage {1D4+(str bonus)+(Power Attack)}*3 and no other build class will get as many attack actions per round as you.
Around 6th Level you should have picked up Improved Unarmed Combat and MultiAttack this maxes out your attacks per round and synergy's best with your Amulet of Might Fists. You get 5 attacks a round now (iterative Kicks at +6/+1 BAB then Claw/Claw/Bite at BAB-2). All of these attacks benefit fully from your strength bonus and whatever you have put on your Amulet (power attack becomes less awesome but still worth it).
You have spent 3 of your 5 feats as follows (Power Attack, Improved Unarmed Combat, Multi-Attack (if your GM lets you get it early otherwise get it at 10th), with a recommendation to get Eldritch Claws and Boon Companion as soon as you are allowed. Everything else is up to your particular taste and interest.
This is your complete build here, all of your groundwork for playing the Feral Ranger is done and from here on in it's however you want to focus your characters RP or Flavor based interests on. I personally go with the intimidation build, Archery build, Magical Crafting or the multi-classing route but you can do anything since you have 14 levels worth of skill points, feats and levels to spend.
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I get your point, guys, but the OP was specifically talking about a ranger build, with an effective claw/claw/bite routine, which is not achievable with the standard races. I'm sure there are any number of other edge cases folks can throw up, but they are just that, edge cases.Yes it is... natural attack ranger can take a feat that gives him claws, and half orc for the bite again.
I really can't see calling it 'edge cases' when well over a third of the classes have the means of gaining natural attacks without going to the 'odd' stuff.
@The conversation on what to put on an amulet of the mighty fists:
I did a beast totem barbarian with animal fury that had an amulet of the mighty fist(furious) which was really nice.
Another option would be to have an allying amulet -- when you aren't using your natural attacks you have the enhancement bonus thrown over to some other weapon.
The best option for Mighty Fists I've been able to find is either Holy Damage, +2D6 Holy is the least resisted elemental type and has the highest chance of use as you level (higher level games are usually filled with Demons/Devils/evil dragons/etc) + has the best chance of getting some damage past that DR. Add to that the Speed enchant (depending on how it's ruled) while either give you another full strength attack or DOUBLE your natural Attacks per round.
Since Amulet of Mighty Fists applies whatever special affect it has to each natural attack the wearer has (ie. Flaming amulet gives you 3 natural attacks that each do a flaming attack) then Speed should give you 3 natural attacks that give you 1 extra attack a piece.
(It's not stacking since it's applying it to different SPECIFIC weapons and only those are only getting 1 more attack each)
I get your point, guys, but the OP was specifically talking about a ranger build, with an effective claw/claw/bite routine, which is not achievable with the standard races. I'm sure there are any number of other edge cases folks can throw up, but they are just that, edge cases.
actually the natural weapons ranger variant from the APG can get natural weapons with his first bonus feat at level 2, if he's half orc he can be claw claw bite all at level 2 not too shabby
I get your point, guys, but the OP was specifically talking about a ranger build, with an effective claw/claw/bite routine, which is not achievable with the standard races. I'm sure there are any number of other edge cases folks can throw up, but they are just that, edge cases.actually the natural weapons ranger variant from the APG can get natural weapons with his first bonus feat at level 2, if he's half orc he can be claw claw bite all at level 2 not too shabby
Take both the Toothy racial trait and the Razortusk feat, and you can claw/claw/bite/bite.
Explain how you are going to get your +6/+1 iterative attacks AND then get claw/claw/bite.
Armor spikes, Armor spikes, claw, claw, bite.
Also I don't think you are doing something right with your attack routine -- it seems likely you have assumed power attack without stating it.
IF you are including power attack lets look a bit harder at it:
Great sword +8/+3 (2d6+6+6)
Claw/Claw/Bite +8/+8/+8 (1d4+4+4)
So the claw/claw/bite is much more likely to hit with all attacks.
EDIT:
With multiattack and two weapon fighting we could have:
Armor Spikes, Armor Spikes, Boot Blade, Claw, Claw, Bite
The attack bonuses would be:
+6/+1/+6/+6/+6/+6 with damage being:
Spikes +8, Spikes +8, Boot +4, Claw +4, Claw +4, Bite +4
Explain how you are going to get your +6/+1 iterative attacks AND then get claw/claw/bite.
Also a few numbers...
Assume an 18 str for a +4 bonus and power attack.
Greatsword - 2d6 + 6 + 6 = ave of 19 damage, 38 pts if both hit.
Natural - 1d4 + 4 + 4 = 11 damage, 22 damage for 2, and 33 for 3 hits. 36 if all 3 hit max damage.It would take 2 of your natural weapons to land just to compete with the 2handers 1st attack. If the 2hander lands his second attack as well your 3 naturals can not equal his average damage even if you rolled max.
Keep in mind in that example I didnt use variables such as magic weapons or weapon focus b/c both examples could attain the same variables.
now what if your two handed fighter misses his iterative, (highly likely on difficult enemies), and the natural weapons hit 3 times, also highly likely as they're all at the highest BAB. Noone is saying the two handed fighter is bad, they're saying that natural weapons is a nice Viable option, keyword option. Note that you can use a manufactured weapon and get your natural weapons also something along the lines of longsword +10/+5, claw +8, bite +8
I get your point, guys, but the OP was specifically talking about a ranger build, with an effective claw/claw/bite routine, which is not achievable with the standard races. I'm sure there are any number of other edge cases folks can throw up, but they are just that, edge cases.actually the natural weapons ranger variant from the APG can get natural weapons with his first bonus feat at level 2, if he's half orc he can be claw claw bite all at level 2 not too shabby
Extending out, throw in 2 levels of Barbarian for Lesser Fiend Totem to get a Gore attack at character level 4.
Claw/Claw/Bite/Gore
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Explain how you are going to get your +6/+1 iterative attacks AND then get claw/claw/bite.
Armor spikes, Armor spikes, claw, claw, bite.
Also I don't think you are doing something right with your attack routine -- it seems likely you have assumed power attack without stating it.
IF you are including power attack lets look a bit harder at it:
Great sword +8/+3 (2d6+6+6)
Claw/Claw/Bite +8/+8/+8 (1d4+4+4)
So the claw/claw/bite is much more likely to hit with all attacks.
Armor spikes don't work:
(You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.)But as I posted you take improved unarmed combat making your whole body a weapon and you KICK twice then you use the natural attacks. Easy, legal and RAI since it's what Monks are all about.
And I did state using power attack but doesn't matter since we are only really talking about the BAB.
However to show what the damage breakdown is let me show that too.
Assuming the 20 str and Pwer Attack that they both should have at 6th level and the +1 equivalent in weapons they definitely should have.
Great Sword +12/+7 (2D6 base +7 str*1.5 +1 enh +6 pwr atk) = 26 (16 min 52 max assuming hits)
Claw/Claw/Bite +10/+10/+10 (1D4 base +5 str +1D6 amulet +4)= 19 (33 minimum 57 max assuming all hit)
At this level you can also burn your feats and grab Imp Unarmed and multi-attack and do this:
Kick/Kick/Claw/Claw/Bite +11/+6/+9/+9/+9 for
(1D2+1D2+1D4+1D4+1D4 base + (5 str)*2 + (5/2 str)*3 + (1D6 amulet)*5 + (4 power attack)*2 +(2 power Attack)*3 = 16+10+6+30+8+5 = (32 min 75 max)
plus 5 chances to critically hit each round.
This routine all around has more attacks, better chance to hit, Higher minimum and maximum damage per round and more chances to Crit.
@Sizik I don't think razortusk and toothy stack since both use the same body part to attack. Same reason I choose to Kick instead of Punch or Head Butt in my attack routine.
Armor spikes would work since you don't have to use them as an off handed weapon.
@Sizik I don't think razortusk and toothy stack since both use the same body part to attack. Same reason I choose to Kick instead of Punch or Head Butt in my attack routine.
I can't find anything that says you can't use the same "body part" for multiple attacks, except with regards to weapon attacks replacing natural attacks on a limb for limb basis. Also, Toothy bite comes from your "vestigial tusks", whereas Razortusk bite comes from "Your powerful jaws and steely teeth", so it's like you bite them with your tusks, but your jaws are so powerful that you close your mouth even more and make another bite with the rest of your teeth.
I get your point, guys, but the OP was specifically talking about a ranger build, with an effective claw/claw/bite routine, which is not achievable with the standard races. I'm sure there are any number of other edge cases folks can throw up, but they are just that, edge cases.Yes it is... natural attack ranger can take a feat that gives him claws, and half orc for the bite again.
I really can't see calling it 'edge cases' when well over a third of the classes have the means of gaining natural attacks without going to the 'odd' stuff.
@The conversation on what to put on an amulet of the mighty fists:
I did a beast totem barbarian with animal fury that had an amulet of the mighty fist(furious) which was really nice.
Another option would be to have an allying amulet -- when you aren't using your natural attacks you have the enhancement bonus thrown over to some other weapon.
Point conceded, so long as you are using the APG. I confess to being less familar with all the rules in it because we haven't been using it that long and I have too many commitments on my time to memorize rules before I need them. The one ranger created in our game is an archer build.
I would make the point that, in my opinion the APG is an optional rulebook, which every GM may or may not allow in part or in whole. So, in my my opinion pretty much everything that depends heavily on that, rather than the Core Rulebook, is still an edge case, in that it won't be available in a considerable number of campaigns.
I currently am allowing the APG, with the caveat that I reserve the right to disallow anything in the future that gameplay shows to be overpowered or otherwise creates problems in the game, in consultation with the other experienced players in our group.
Well it all comes down to what works at each person's table. Personally I don't think it's a bad option -- I also don't think it's the only option either though. Two handed is still very much viable, as is sword and board, archery and so on.
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Armor spikes would work since you don't have to use them as an off handed weapon.
True but then you'd have to make a grapple attempt to use them and that would require a standard action and prevent the full round attack instead.
According to the rules for using Armor Spikes:
You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.)
So assuming I attack with the claw/claw/bite I'd have to substitute the armor spike for one of the claws since I still need 1 free hand to to attack with. Same reason why TWF's don't use armor spikes to get a third attack it requires a unused off-hand to do it and both of their hands are being used.
@Sizik you may be right, I was referring to that rule you quoted and it does only cover the natural weapon to manufactured weapon exception. It feels a bit cheesy but I don't see any rules preventing it.
If it does work it gets my estimates up to 16 attacks a round now at max level. Vicious
That is still incorrect Mathwei -- you can't use armor spikes as a second off handed weapon -- but nothing prevents you from using them as a primary weapon -- and you don't even have to grapple with them.
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That is still incorrect Mathwei -- you can't use armor spikes as a second off handed weapon -- but nothing prevents you from using them as a primary weapon -- and you don't even have to grapple with them.
Been working on my search-fu and though it is hotly debated I see you are, in fact, correct about this. It does free up a feat slot since you don't need IUS now and the spikes actually do much better damage then the unarmed strikes as well.
Will say I prefer the visual for kick/kick/claw/claw/bite but the spikes are in all mechanical ways better.
edit: spelling errors.
With natural attacks if you mix them with unarmed or melee attacks they become secondary attacks with -5 to hit 1/2 str damage which also means 1 per power attack bonus. As well you apply the two weapon fighting penalties where you melee or unarmed attack is the primary weapon and the natural attacks are the off hand attacks.
So Natural isn't all that great but not bad either. For example if you kick(s)/claw/claw/Bite you are at -6 to hit with the kick(s) and -15 to hit with claw/claw/bite. As well you are exposed to an attack of opportunity and only do non lethal with kicks. You need a few feat to fix this up or don't mix the attacks as stick with 2 claw primary and bite secondary possibly primary depending how you got it. For example Razor tusk makes it secondary and 1/2 str bonus where as the Dragon Disciple is Primary and 1-1/2 str bonus. If you want to use your kick(s), claw, claw, bite then you need twf, multi attack, and improved unarmed. At that point you'd be -2 with the kicks and -4(-2 for TWF and -2 MA) with the natural attacks. No attack of opportunity and all lethal damage. Armor spikes could be used in place of kick(s) as primary attack.
If you go all natural you max out at the natural attacks you are capable of doing. Only have 2 claw only 2 attacks, add a bite 3 attacks, wings another attack, tail another attack, horns another attack. That's all you get.
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With natural attacks if you mix them with unarmed or melee attacks they become secondary attacks with -5 to hit 1/2 str damage which also means 1 per power attack bonus. As well you apply the two weapon fighting penalties where you melee or unarmed attack is the primary weapon and the natural attacks are the off hand attacks.
So Natural isn't all that great but not bad either. For example if you kick(s)/claw/claw/Bite you are at -6 to hit with the kick(s) and -15 to hit with claw/claw/bite. As well you are exposed to an attack of opportunity and only do non lethal with kicks. You need a few feat to fix this up or don't mix the attacks as stick with 2 claw primary and bite secondary possibly primary depending how you got it. For example Razor tusk makes it secondary and 1/2 str bonus where as the Dragon Disciple is Primary and 1-1/2 str bonus. If you want to use your kick(s), claw, claw, bite then you need twf, multi attack, and improved unarmed. At that point you'd be -2 with the kicks and -4(-2 for TWF and -2 MA) with the natural attacks. No attack of opportunity and all lethal damage. Armor spikes could be used in place of kick(s) as primary attack.
If you go all natural you max out at the natural attacks you are capable of doing. Only have 2 claw only 2 attacks, add a bite 3 attacks, wings another attack, tail another attack, horns another attack. That's all you get.
You have a strong mix of incorrect information in here.
Natural attacks do not add the TWF complications you speak of when mixed with iterative attacks, they just become secondary attacks at -5 to hit (-2 with Multi-attack feat) and half str & power attack.The real difficulty with Natural Attacks is it's HARD to get any more reliable sources of attacks hence the reliance on the uber expensive Amulet of Mighty Fists (Speed).
A nice build
Thank you, Mathwei, for taking the time to explain that. I hadn't seen the toothy alternate trait, had only seen the feat to get a secondary bite. Three attacks at full BAB and STR seems pretty attractive at low levels.
I suspect once you start throwing in iteratives on top that you're doing some math incorrectly though. The natural attacks don't suffer from TWF penalties, but the manufactured weapons do.
This could be addressed somewhat by swapping the first TWF feat in place of IUS, but that requires that 15 Dex, which is not where you seem to want to be.
Unless you pick up TWF as well, you're looking at (at 6th level):
Melee: 2+Str, Str-3
Claw-claw-bite: STR+1, half STR on damage.
Compared to a THW:
Melee: 6+Str, 1+Str - his secondary attack has almost as much chance to hit as your primary, and exactly the same as your naturals.
Now if you pick up TWF, it looks more like:
Melee: 4+Str, Str-1
Naturals: Str+1, half STR on damage
But your strength suffers from MAD a bit now.
At this point, you're probably hitting stuff more often than a THW fighter, but I wouldn't say you're strictly better than. Now, having to take the first TWF isn't that horrible, but it does mean you can't ignore DEX completely, while the THW guy can. On the other hand, you could drop the manufactured stuff and stay true to concept, and probably be better off (three attacks at Str+6, full STR, no DEX requirement).
I suspect once you start throwing in iteratives on top that you're doing some math incorrectly though. The natural attacks don't suffer from TWF penalties, but the manufactured weapons do.
That is a common error/misconception regarding natural attacks. The section of the PRD/core rules linked is wrong; people are directed to follow the rules listed in the bestiary:
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.
You can find the source here.
Q: The rules for Natural Attacks and weapons from the Core book are different from what is in the Bestiary. The Core rules say that if combining natural and weapon attacks that they are treated as if using two-weapon fighting, but the Bestiary matches to what is in the 3.5 rules. Which is correct?
A: (James Jacobs 10/30/09) Part of the problem, alas, is that this is a rules mechanic that Jason was wrestling with up to the very last second. The Bestiary rules are correct. The part in the core rules that contradicts this is a fragment, alas, that stuck in there. It should be cleaned up, I agree. It's unfortunate that the confusion is in there, but again, as far as I understand the game and as far as I've been using the rules for the last several volumes of Pathfinder, the rules from the Bestiary are the correct ones. [Source]
The section of the PRD/core rules linked is wrong; people are directed to follow the rules listed in the bestiary:
Interesting. I guess I'll end by noting that the natural weapon ranger is going to suffer a bit in PFS, where Multiattack isn't available to PCs. And I'm not sure whether the bestiary interpretation is valid for PCs either (in PFS).
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Interesting. I guess I'll end by noting that the natural weapon ranger is going to suffer a bit in PFS, where Multiattack isn't available to PCs. And I'm not sure whether the bestiary interpretation is valid for PCs either (in PFS).The section of the PRD/core rules linked is wrong; people are directed to follow the rules listed in the bestiary:
Ninja'd
Thanks for the link Cibulan, I was searching for that ruling again just couldn't remember where it's at.As for PFS it becomes a non-issue really, yes you are not allowed the feat but it's not really needed there. The modules are usually tuned down enough that this level of optimization are more of a hindrance then a help.
(takes to long to run through a rotation and no goon lives through it so you only get your first 3 attacks off, and bosses AC's are high enough you'll never take the to-hit penalty for adding iterative attacks in.)
90 percent of the time using the regular Claw/Claw/Bite is more then adequate for everything under 10th-12th level. After that you REALLY need to work in extra attacks or the iterative weapon attacks will rapidly leave your performance in the dust. When the TWF's are getting 6-8 (or 10 sometimes) attacks around you really have to squeeze every possible extra source of damage out you can or you become a liability to high level play.
This is really a build for a high danger game where you NEED that opponent to die RIGHT NOW before he unleashes unholy GM fury on you, I've played a few like that and it's fun.
Natural weapons bypass DR in a much easier way, take the feat Eldritch Claws and all your attacks are considered Silver & Magic for DR purposes and Nat weapons use the spell Align Fang and Weapon Blanches to get through other DR. Takes about the same time as switching weapons so a bit cheaper then buying a specific weapon just to get through DR which is a situational issue really.
Weapon Blanches are not going to help you much in this type of build:
These alchemical powders have a gritty consistency. When poured on a weapon and placed over a hot flame for a full round, they melt and form a temporary coating on the weapon. The blanching gives the weapon the ability to bypass one kind of material-based damage reduction, such as adamantine, cold iron, or silver. The blanching remains effective until the weapon makes a successful attack.
Bolded the relevant bits. Not only do you have to prepare ahead of time with the blanch, but the blanch is only good for one attack. Unless you know your next fight will need a specific material, you're not going to take the time to apply the blanch. And even then, they're only good for one successful attack each.
Bolded the relevant bits. Not only do you have to prepare ahead of time with the blanch, but the blanch is only good for one attack. Unless you know your next fight will need a specific material, you're not going to take the time to apply the blanch. And even then, they're only good for one successful attack each.
Also, um... placing your teeth over a hot flame sounds like a bad plan. Just sayin'.
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Bolded the relevant bits. Not only do you have to prepare ahead of time with the blanch, but the blanch is only good for one attack. Unless you know your next fight will need a specific material, you're not going to take the time to apply the blanch. And even then, they're only good for one successful attack each.Also, um... placing your teeth over a hot flame sounds like a bad plan. Just sayin'.
Hey, no pain no gain I always say. :p
But honestly the Weapon Blanches go on the arrows, don't forget we are basically a switch hitting Ranger after all. Everything that needs something other than Silver, Magic or Holy to get through you usually don't wanna be that close.