??? and could this gun be used to kill in the conventional sense?I know of a gun that was specifically designed to grind coffee. :)Lol, no one said that a gun can't be used for other things, but that it what it was designed for, and for some guns, do recall that's for "shoots animals" :P
It could be. You can use many coffee grinders in a violent fashion. This one was just more efficient.
I'm so incredibly and somewhat shamefully intrigued right now.
Wow, that's crazy lol. But to be fair, from what it says the coffee grinder was an extra, and not the purpose of the gun which was still to fire bullets.
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And keep in mind there's another aspect to gun ownership beyond the taking of life and that is the simple preservation of it. If a 300lb. guy decides it would be a nice idea to smash into your home and do abominable things to your and yours would you rather have a phone and a prayer or a semi automatic with those damn humie exploding bullets? One of these things is more likely to help you immediately than not.It's notable that in every case of mass shootings it's been in places where OC or CC has simply not been allowed. We could speculate what might happen if such a shooter came across a campus full of CC'ers who just got back from the range and itchy to become "heroes" but I doubt that'll ever happen since such people ultimately are suicidal not stupid.
Wow, if you really believe 300 lb maniacs are ready to smash into your house to kill you, i think you'd better move! and since when is suicidal NOT stupid? ; )
obviously we're gonna have to agree to disagree, but I have to say that your claim about CC is patently false. AK, AZ, VT, and WY are all no permit required states and a quick search finds 4 nursing students killed at UA in 2002, a teacher shot at school in VT in 2006, a sniper wounded a high school student on campus this spring in Willcox, AZ.
CO, TX, and VA are all shall permit and I believe we've had more than a few mass killings in those states...
Even CT according to Wiki "Connecticut, issuance of the temporary permit from local authorities is not a prerequisite to obtain the regular permit; however one must apply for the temporary permit and wait for a decision from local authorities before applying for the regular permit. Normally, the regular permit is generally granted for applicants that meet statutory criteria regardless of whether the temporary permit is issued or denied."
Actually I just looked it up and NEARLY EVERY STATE allows carry permits. This is a massive reversal since 1995 that I wasn't even aware of. So you see how that strategy is working o.O
You'll note that many of these mass shootings take place in gun free zones. Against unarmed people.
All that proves is that if you shoot at unarmed people they tend not to shoot back.
But yes, time, place and all that so I'll cut it out.
Actually, one more thing. Look up Switzerland's gun control policy. It is an interesting read.
I am indeed familiar with Switzerland's gun laws. Switzerland also has a homogenous, high income population of 8 million. so yeah, slightly different from the US :P and they still have limitations.
The Swiss also require everyone to buy health insurance... just saying ; )
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I think the simple answer is to ban any weapon with a magazine capable of holding more than say 6 shells. If you cannot hit the deer or home invader with that many shots you should not have the gun.
Also, require that the magazine cannot be quickly swapped out. If you implemented these two items, then the sport shooters, hunters, and paranoid home invasion people will have all the firepower they need, and you will have greatly limited the suicidal mass murders ability to get off more than a few shots.
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I err on the side of more control rather than less, but appreciate and understand that it takes a disturbed person to commit the atrocities when they do occur.
Federal gun laws should be in place in the US, I know it wouldn't be popular in certain states - but this is an issue that really needs a level and flat approach across the country.
Based on an outsider's view - there needs to be more stringent laws about how weapons are secured at home. In Australia it needs to be a dedicated gun safe that is made almost impossible to move. Better secured weapons means less theft and less illegal guns on the market.
Lastly, take a good long hard look at exactly what is legal to sell in America.
One case in point
Make the rifles bolt action breech loaded single shot and limit handguns to revolvers only - and then tightly control speedloaders.
A gun designed with the potential to kill and a car designed with the potential to kill. Used in an improper manner, through reckless behavior or criminal intent, both of these tools may result in the lose of human life. But as the number show, a car results in more deaths every year from some bozo who chose to have a drink then drive than some person who decided they would actively take another's life with a firearm. Drunk drivers specifically are scourge who care nothing for those around them.
Rose, Tark and I come parts of the country where you are born with a gun in your hand. So it is no surprise we are adamant about the need to observe the 2nd Amendment as a tool to protect ourselves from a tyrannical government if needs be or from the devils of humanity who shoot up malls or break into your home and rape our wives and daughters while we are forced to watch before having our throats slit by the junkie f#$k who's mother should have aborted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire,_Connecticut,_home_invasion_murders
I apologize if I am coming off as some sort of "gun nut," but we live in a country where violence is flying out of control and I refuse to let innocent people fall victim to the predators living among us if I can do anything about it. Even as a person trained with the skills to deal with death I have been having a hard time dealing with this one, too. It is very tragic to think of those darling children being subjected to some sick sh%tbag's cry for attention. The issue still remains that he would have found some way to make us all talk about him. He could have killed just as many people with a compound bow because victims hope that they won't be hurt if they just cooperate. Did you know that more people are killed with a machete than all other weapons combined? A Machete....
Here is a little bit from the Rwanda genocide in the early 90's
"Men, women, and children were murdered. Since bullets were expensive, most Tutsis were killed by hand weapons, often machetes or clubs. Many were often tortured before being killed. Some of the victims were given the option of paying for a bullet so that they'd have a quicker death.
Also during the violence, thousands of Tutsi women were raped. Some were raped and then killed, others were kept as sex slaves for weeks. Some Tutsi women and girls were also tortured before being killed, such as having their breasts cut off or had sharp objects shoved up their vagina."
All held by the power of fear. Don't resist and we'll let you live they say. Too bad that is a lie to get you to be an easier kill. Humans are savage animals wrapped in the trappings of a higher being. It only takes a mild disruption in our societal make up to set the beast free. Look at Katrina as a prime example. People were being raped and murdered at the stadium that was to be their sanctuary. I for one would want more than six rounds when society breaks down and I am the help to be called. 5 guys with six a piece would have me down in a heart beat. I would call my 30 round mags an odds evener.
Society is a guise we all know to be a facade. There will come a day when one of us here will face the reality of this statement. I pray that you are equipped to deal with it and have tools necessary to survive. We speak of the evil weapons commit, but we must see them as what they are, tools. That same gun in the hands of good man is what upholds or ideals and society. My heart is torn out every time I see anything related to these kids, but I feel the same way every time a commercial showing the angels killed by drunk drivers come on the tellie. People do some terrible things and it is them that need to be the focus of our outrage, no the tool they used. I don't mean to offend by any means so please see what it is that I am trying say.
Dear gods that's heartbreaking.
I err on the side of more control rather than less, but appreciate and understand that it takes a disturbed person to commit the atrocities when they do occur.
Federal gun laws should be in place in the US, I know it wouldn't be popular in certain states - but this is an issue that really needs a level and flat approach across the country.
Based on an outsider's view - there needs to be more stringent laws about how weapons are secured at home. In Australia it needs to be a dedicated gun safe that is made almost impossible to move. Better secured weapons means less theft and less illegal guns on the market.
Lastly, take a good long hard look at exactly what is legal to sell in America.
One case in pointMake the rifles bolt action breech loaded single shot and limit handguns to revolvers only - and then tightly control speedloaders.
The Uzi incident was not a weapon for sale as full auto is only legal with a very strict permit. It was a rental at a controlled site. That is a horrible story, but an accident none the less.
The US already has very strict gun laws, but they are not properly enforced. Proper enforcement is the answer not more.
Dear gods that's heartbreaking.
Indeed...indeed. It brought a tear to my eye the first time I watched that story. It is so easy to put yourself in that place and think what the hell would I have done.
So yeah, I just wrote this huge thing in response to your comment directed at me, BBB, but pazio decided to not publish it and gave me some error crap.
The short of it was though, that pointing out that other things cause more deaths does not lessen the deaths caused by guns. We need stricter gun laws, and some guns should not be in civilian hands. That isn't to say that we don't also need to do more about drunk drivers and machete wielding maniacs, but you cannot simply say that because more deaths are caused by these other things that we shouldn't worry about gun laws.
Edit: the first heartbreaking comment was about Mark's link. I hadn't seen your comments yet. Of course what you posted is very heartbreaking as well.
So, someone posted this link to two videos on facebook and I strongly urge all of you to watch them, especially in light of our current line of conversation.
I see a deep dark pit before me and I refuse to fall into it no matter where it may lead.
No rabbit holes for you, then?
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Not on the board I game on no. I already stepped beyond my bounds there and have no desire to push further lest I ruin a good thing for no reason. ;)
I suppose that's a good reason not to jump in head first.
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The Uzi incident is more indicative of the culture around guns in a large part of the US. That is that it is seen as somehow acceptable for a minor to have a go at firing a fully automatic weapon for fun
The US already has very strict gun laws, but they are not properly enforced. Proper enforcement is the answer not more.
As of today - a weapon like the AR-15 is able to be bought in the US without any specific restrictions (in the vast majority of states).
So a common citizen with no specific purpose can essentially buy and own an M-16.
You can also easily purchase a Glock 19 - which is the chosen handgun of a wide variety of military and police institutions around the world.
This is the very opposite of strict gun laws.
The Uzi incident is more indicative of the culture around guns in a large part of the US. That is that it is seen as somehow acceptable for a minor to have a go at firing a fully automatic weapon for fun
The US already has very strict gun laws, but they are not properly enforced. Proper enforcement is the answer not more.As of today - a weapon like the AR-15 is able to be bought in the US without any specific restrictions (in the vast majority of states).
So a common citizen with no specific purpose can essentially buy and own an M-16.
You can also easily purchase a Glock 19 - which is the chosen handgun of a wide variety of military and police institutions around the world.
This is the very opposite of strict gun laws.
bitingmytonguebitingmytonguebitingmytonguebitingmytongueohgodithurtsbitingm ytongue
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Rose, Tark and I come parts of the country where you are born with a gun in your hand. So it is no surprise we are adamant about the need to observe the 2nd Amendment as a tool to protect ourselves from a tyrannical government if needs be or from the devils of humanity who shoot up malls or break into your home and rape our wives and daughters while we are forced to watch before having our throats slit by the junkie f#$k who's mother should have aborted.
Bilbo - on this specific point, I'd offer a counter question. How many of the recent massacres or school shootings have actually been stopped or curtailed by a member of the public who was carrying a 2nd amendment protected weapon?
To a neutral observer it would seem that the vast majority were curtailed either by suicide or the response of professional law enforcement to the scene.
Tark - no need to bite your tongue with me, I'm not going to get offended or cut a hissy fit. PM me if you need to get it off your chest without collateral damage :P
The Uzi incident is more indicative of the culture around guns in a large part of the US. That is that it is seen as somehow acceptable for a minor to have a go at firing a fully automatic weapon for fun
The US already has very strict gun laws, but they are not properly enforced. Proper enforcement is the answer not more.As of today - a weapon like the AR-15 is able to be bought in the US without any specific restrictions (in the vast majority of states).
So a common citizen with no specific purpose can essentially buy and own an M-16.
You can also easily purchase a Glock 19 - which is the chosen handgun of a wide variety of military and police institutions around the world.
This is the very opposite of strict gun laws.
"If stupid yankee criminal want to buy or overpriced capitalist weapon of shit design with ease of jamming and expense of care Gregori say he welcome to it. Gregori prefer glorious inexpensive weapon of worker's revolution as having seen combat in two different wars. Gregori is hearing that crates of glorious weapon preserved in cosmoline still exist in certain parts of country. Has many uses, tent pole, walking stick, is good for picking apples from top of tree with bayonet, good for hat rack, or for bludgeoning to death fascist pig when out of bullet and bayonet roasting pig over fire. Gregori also hear tale of people making use of chamber for the smoking of narcotic. Gregori will neither confirm nor deny."
Colonial subject not sure of point being made by Son of Motherland with rapidly emptying wodka bottle. Is the Progeny of Glorious Revolution saying that AK-47 better choice for questionable intent of large semi-automatic magazine?
"Nazi piss gun! I spit upon it and its clan! There is but one great weapon of worker's great revolution! Nazi piss gun fit only for dark skinned savages to make shoot at each other and waste much ammo as can't hit broad side of great big barn as made by stoic farmers of glorious motherland! Vodka bottle is empty! Gregori must go now and bludgeon fascist to death with potato before political officer allow next ration of vodka."
Ahh - I understand completely in the way in which I don't at all.
Perhaps I could also recommend the Baker Rifle? This was a gun that at times it was advisable to actually piss down barrel for much ease of cleaning during battle as well as preventing yellow stains to valuable breeches.
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Just back from the Hobbit. It was good, but could have made use of Orcrist to hack off all the superfluous bits. I did actually find myself thinking "get on with it" a few times which didn't occur in LotR. I think a good 40 min of fluff could have been shorn to get a tighter and honestly better film.
Since it seems all the add on were left in the theatrical version, I wonder if the director's cut will be streamlined version this time ; )
No, I'm just tired and bored. And mostly making a point where the comparison of military weapons is silly unless you're comparing actual used in the military weapons. There's a reason you don't see too many AR-15's being owned except by guys with loads of cash to blow. Mainly because the damn things cost as much as a new car.
A person who has that much money to blow on a gun he probably got just for fun on the range or to show off his nonexistent penis probably has the things lovingly kept in a big gun safe behind his alarm system and a nice inexpensive shotgun loaded with buck shot underneath the bed.
Meanwhile a mosin nagant costs less than a new computer, probably has seen or would have seen an actual war, and is overall more manly just to have. It's almost a requirement to be a raging drunk russian just to work the action.
A lot of gun control legislation is built by people who don't know anything about firearms who also happened to be scared of them with no real rational reason why except that bad people use them. A lot of stuff gets banned because it looks scary or has some mystical hold over the lobbyists.
Honestly? The best way to prevent these sorts of tragedies doesn't involve gun legislation but getting to the roots of the problems themselves. It should be fairly obvious by now that these shootings don't occur because of the firearms, but because they were disturbed little people who wanted to be remembered for something and our wonderful sensationalist media never fails to deliver a name, some graphics, special music, and 24/7 coverage of the dead guy but next to nothing on the victims and there families. Thank you unbiased media for your glorification of a mad man. Future psychopaths will no doubt be inspired. I'd drive down to the CNN offices to punch someone in the mouth but with my luck it'd be one of the innocent interns.
Then you have our wonderful mental health system that is about as archaic but far less well maintained as our friend the mosin nagant and his friend the orbrez. Then there's this culture that glorifies hate and violence over love and compassion and , ugh, it's complicated but the bottom line is preventing this kind of massacre is not as easy as removing guns from the streets. There are deeper and not so easy things to talk about with it. Mental illness, media bias, health care coverage, a+~##!& politicians. Yeah, now you've got me ranting and raving. Goddamit.
I don't think that anyone thinks that this was caused because of the firearm, but rather believe that perhaps that even with a different firearm there would have been fewer deaths...
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I 100% agree with you on most points. When you are looking at risk mitigation there are two main arms that you can affect - Likelihood and Consequence.
Better mental health care, early intervention, better resourcing on governmental departments that help domestic violence, child abuse, etc - these will all work to reduce the Likelihood of an event such as this occurring.
However when the select few who fall through the cracks do decide to go batsh1t and wage war (such as Anders Brevik) - I'd prefer if they aren't able to get their hands on efficient instruments of death (such as semi-auto handguns, semi-auto rifles, etc). A limitation of the power of the weaponry available (such as gun control) would provide a reduction to the Consequence of an event when it occurs.
A case could be made that if the US did invest heavily enough in social welfare systems - then they would not need to restrict gun ownership. Or maybe if they followed Switzerland's model of installing a better gun culture (through yearly training and mandatory service) - then they also wouldn't need to limit the guns as much.
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Since VC brought it up, I'd like to go ahead and say just so there is no confusion, that Autism is not linked to this sort of violence. If this man was on the spectrum, it was a coincidence to his psychotic behavior and not the cause of.
First: This can't be stressed enough and nothing I write and ponder about here is meant to link Autism to violence and violent crime!
Kevin Dutton, a British psychiatrist published a book recently, that delved into the history of psychiopathic serial killers. He discovered that certain symptoms seem to date back to early childhood (mainly the inability to form bonds to ther beings (human or animal) and the complete lack of empathy while frightingly good at 'reading' other people.
Consulting collegues, he found out that many of them have seen related symptoms when working with juvenile offenders or just juveniles with behavioral problems.
Though aware of the cause of the symptoms, many psychiatrists hesitated to diagnose a psychiopathic disorder for fear of stigmatizing juveniles as 'future criminals' (a false dichotomy as not nearly everyone with a psychiopathic disorder becomes a criminal, though the barrier to become one is smaller) and because most psychiatrists think of psychiopathic disorders as more or less untreatable (which Duttons contests).
Often, the symptoms were ignored so the psychiatrists didn't have to diagnose a disorder at all, in some cases where the symptoms were too obvious to ignore or dismiss them, they were willfully diagnosed wron as 'mild autism'.
Again: I do not say that is what happened here, as there is (and should be!) too little information publicly available. But this irresponsible and highly unprofessional (and yeah, I am gettin really angry at this) behavior may sadly lead to links between diagnosed autism and psychotic behavior.
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One word is all that is necessary. Catalyst. No, guns don't kill people, but they make it a heck of a lot easier. Just as removing water from the equation greatly decreases rust, removing guns will decrease violence.
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@Fey: Don't let that information get into the wrong hands...
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Yeah, but should mass media find out and use it in the wrong away...
So I will refrain from making comments about the whole situation at the US since I'm way over my head on this subject. I do not know how much of this ever get on the international media (since I pretty much avoided any media during that time) but we had a case like this on Brazil.
On april 7 2011, a lone young man came back to the school where he studied armed with 2 revolvers (one a .32-caliber Rossi snub-nosed the other a .38-caliber Rossi 971), a speedloader and a lot of years of bullying (caused by girls) on his mind. He identified himself as an ex-student, well-dressed, hoping to provide a workshop for the school. He entered a classroom of 14 year old and proceeded to shoot the students, aiming for the girls. He went from classroom to classroom, until the police arrived on the spot, cornered and shot him. He then, wound on the stomach, shot himself.
With 2 (ilegally-obtained) revolvers and a couple of speedloaders he managed to kill 10 girls and 2 boys between 12 and 14 years of age, shooting over one hundred bullets.
This particular dude had been bullied by girls and got over-impressed with the 9/11 tragedy on the US. He somewhat identified himself with the terrorists and their mindset and purportedly converted to Islam (although I believe he had no idea what that meant and was using it all as a crutch). He shot girls in the head, and boys at their arms and legs. He left a video declaring his intentions (even to the point of declaring his suicide):
"The struggle for which many brothers died in the past, and for which I will die, is not solely because of what is known as bullying. Our fight is against cruel people, cowards, who take advantage of the kindness, the weakness of people unable to defend themselves."
I meant to retreat from this discussion completely but I thought I could provide at least a different perspective on this.
The shit that happens up there creates a ripple effect. You guys are a very big and trendsetter country, with a very powerful media. For some reason I know better of your holidays than I know of mine. If a dude gets a couple weapons and shoots out an unprotected school on the USA, sick f~!+s elsewhere are sure to follow (specially on countries with less police protection). This has been one such case.More are sure to follow, sadly.
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I am going to drop from this topic as it is difficult to discuss in this place where I come to get away from the reality of life. I wish we could be having this discussion at a time when it is not connected to the horrid events of last week. I actually enjoy the gun control debate and welcome the ideas and viewpoints of those opposed to my own. The simple fact is hot button issues like these are very difficult to change the mind of either side. So I would suggest that we start a new topic about something less inflammatory....like gay marriage. ;)
Time to go work on the Rat Rod. Found a great six part series on the development of the Aussie Ford Falcon GTHO XB while cruising YouTube. What a fantastic car. Think I am going to try and clone my '68.
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Yes. Gays should be allowed to get married.
Not that it has any impact on me personally, but from a social justice perspective it irks me plenty. What bothers me even more in this country is that it still really comes down to a religious debate, which is ridiculous in a secular country.
Every poll taken says taht as a Nation we are ready to vote in favour, yet the politicians on both sides refuse to take it to a ballot for fear of upsetting the religious ticket - the numbers are so tight between the two major parteies that the nod of the church defines the winner.
@fetytharn - yes, I've heard similar things before. There was a time, and still to some degree, that autism among other diagnosis were used as a catch all phrase for just about everything wasn't obviously something else. I feel that today, autism is more better defined if only slightly better understood. Autistic children can form bonds to people and animals, some children to a greater degree than others, but the bonds are formed differently than with non-autistic children. I'm one of the lucky ones in this regard, the social issues related to autism have manifested in my daughter quite differently than most (but not all) autistic children. She doesn't shy away from people, she doesn't freak out if she's touched, and she will make very minimal eye contact for a second or two at a time. She does, however, have absolutely NO FEAR of strangers. Will through herself bodily onto other people for hugs and play, especially adults and older children. She is very bonded to me and to my best friends daughter, those are her two strongest bonds, but that's not all by any means. She is starting to attempt to show affection to the cats, but sadly is too rough with them so I have to make her stop.
I was diagnosed as being bipolar when I was 12, that diagnosis was changed about 4 times until about the age of 22 when a therapist handed me a questionnaire about ADD/ADHD. Apparently, all of the symptoms that I had had were symptoms of ADD/ADHD, bipolar, PTSD and several other diagnosis.The diagnosis of adult ADD is what is current for me and I tend to believe it is the closest thing to accurate that the psychiatric field can get. From the age of 12 on they tried all kinds of anti-depressants (and whatever other types) of meds with me and nothing helped at all, many made it worse. When the tried an ADD med, I was floored with what it was able to do to help me. I quit taking it when I was pregnant, and haven't bothered with it again, mostly because I just don't feel like going back to therapy.
@Rune - That is a very sad thing to hear. You're right, what happens here does have a large affect on the rest of the world, and sadly, we are ill informed about what is happening in the rest of the world. On the same day, last Friday, when these last shootings happened apparently there was another school shooting in China. I'm not sure where, and I don't know the details, but it's not something that I've heard much talk about, even on international social networks where I have friends globally.
@BBB and Shifty - Gay Marriage FTW. Shifty, it's a crazy debate here too and it all boils down to the Christians. Even though we don't officially recognize any religion, making us a secular nation, it was founded on certain Christian precepts and the Christian majority still force their religious beliefs on the rest of us. Slowly progress is being made though, this last election, 4 more states made it legal!
States & countries should not recognize marriage - any marriage. If two people want to get the legal/tax benefits (health care, insurance, disability, tax breaks, inheritance, etc), then they should register as a civil union, or legal pair, or whatever it will be called. Marriage is a religious institution and it should stay as such. Government should keep its hands out of religion, and religion should keep their dirty paws off of government.
I don't see what the fuss is about Gay Marriage... I mean isn't Marriage supposed to be happy?
I'd be more concerned about Dour Marriage, Grumpy Marriage, and Only Did it Because I Got the Girl Pregnant Marriage...
and Only Did it Because I Got the Girl Pregnant Marriage...
- unless its Oprah!
How about the legality of recreational drug use? hehehehe.
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How about the legality of recreational drug use? hehehehe.
Coffee is good for you...
Marriage is an institution found in different forms across the globe both in and outside of religious context. If government gets its paws off of marriage, and it is left solely as a religious institution, however, then that would solve the problem. If two people want to get married and their religion says no, then they can either accept it or convert to one that allows it. In the USA, it would have to be respected equally.
@BBB - I think it depends on the drug. I don't ever want to see meth, crack or heroin legalized but I think it's absolutely stupid that marijuana isn't legalized.
Similarly TR, I'd not like to see those 'hard' drugs legalised, however I think that possession should be de-criminalised. I don't mean to judge someone elses lifestyle, but reckon the addicts already have enough societal and emotional damage to cart around without handing them a criminal record to go with it.
I'd prefer more money was spent on education and rehabilitation, as opposed to incarceration.
In Sydney's 'notorious' Kings Cross our Govt set up an injecting room, and thats been a great success story, however theres enough people whpo would love to see it closed to be 'tough on drugs', as though that does anyone any favours. On the other hand chucking dealers and suppliers in the clink for a very very long time sits just fine with me.
http://www.sydneymsic.com/
That's really interesting. Not a bad idea, either, in my opinion. There isn't anything like that here that I know of but I have heard of "needle exchange" programs in some areas where a user can bring their used needles in and get new, sterile needles. Obviously the idea is to prevent the spread of HIV and other contagions through needle sharing, but it serves other purposes as well such as sepsis and other illnesses that can be gotten through the use of non-sterile needles. Also, needles tend to dull out after the initial use, the more they are used the duller they get like any sharp object. If a needle is used too much it causes more tearing and scaring damage to the skin and veins.