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I have my opinion. I still buy Paizo products. How about we put it in the closet again?
When you say "X did Y" that's not an opinion, it's a statement of fact. They have a nasty tendency to require a proof to be accepted, and the burden of proof lies on you.
Or you're just running around saying random things, that happens on Internets sometimes. Even I do it from time to time.
CEO
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I have my opinion. I still buy Paizo products. How about we put it in the closet again?
I have no problem with you having an opinion. I actually value that highly, which is why our messageboards are so open and accommodating.
What I don't like is people making accusations about me, saying that I am taking pot shots at a company that is near and dear to my heart, without backing up those accusations. It really isn't a matter of opinion. Either I took pot shots at 4e, or I didn't. This is a factual statement, not something that is open to opinion. So, once again, I ask, please provide me with an actual time I took a pot shot at 4e. I am betting that you can't. Which is why I am pushing this so hard. I take my reputation VERY HIGHLY and am not about to put this "in the closet again" until you either show me the link OR take back your comment about me taking pot shots at 4e.
I await your answer...
-Lisa
I have my opinion. I still buy Paizo products. How about we put it in the closet again?When you take pot shots at one company, then turn around and sell their product in your store, your credibility with me isn't very high.When did I take pot shots at any company? Seriously. I can't think of a single company that I have ever taken pot shots at in my lifetime. That just isn't me. So please elucidate me on when this happened.
-Lisa
4e.
Once again, when did I take pot shots at 4e? To the best of my knowledge, I have never said anything remotely disparaging towards Wizards of the Coast (a company, btw, I helped to create) or towards 4e. Please point me towards a post I made somewhere that you consider a pot shot at 4e.
-Lisa
Wait so let me see if I got this straight...
Just up-thread someone attributed something to you that you might have said or done and you took umbrage and asked for a link to PROVE THAT YOU SAID THAT.
And pretty much in the same breath you flat out accuse the CEO of taking potshots at 4E (which I've never seen her do.) but when proof is directly asked for you're now saying that it's your OPINION and lets move on?
CLASSY.
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CEO
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You still don't seem to grasp certain concepts. Lisa gave an opinion, and back it up with some facts that she has observed. Her post had context, and weight. Your opinion that the details were not complete dosen't change that, and I really have no further intrest in trying to explain it to you and wasting more time. You have done me a service though. Now I know how much weight to give your posts. Thank you.It was ambiguous. Perhaps you are willing to take what someone of authority says at face value, I'm not willing to do that.
I was referencing posts I have seen on a private industry website. I would post a link but a) it is a private messageboard, so you wouldn't be able to access the link and b) it has privacy policies which prevent me from copy and pasting and attributing the post to someone. So I related the content of the post here as a point of reference.
I really have no horse in this race. WizKids is doing what they do regardless of whether anybody thinks that they are doing well. The Pathfinder minis set they are doing with us will stand or fall on its own merits.
-Lisa
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I have my opinion. I still buy Paizo products. How about we put it in the closet again?When you take pot shots at one company, then turn around and sell their product in your store, your credibility with me isn't very high.When did I take pot shots at any company? Seriously. I can't think of a single company that I have ever taken pot shots at in my lifetime. That just isn't me. So please elucidate me on when this happened.
-Lisa
4e.
Once again, when did I take pot shots at 4e? To the best of my knowledge, I have never said anything remotely disparaging towards Wizards of the Coast (a company, btw, I helped to create) or towards 4e. Please point me towards a post I made somewhere that you consider a pot shot at 4e.
-Lisa
You see, to me, this response is nothing but pompous and arrogant. As others have pointed out, your claim that Lisa took pot shots at 4E is not an opinion. You stated that she did it - you presented it as a fact. Now, when numerous people have called you on it, and even asked you to provide proof (just like you demanded when you felt someone mis-quoted you) you fall back on "I have my opinion"
I'm sorry, but that is cowardly.
Tell you what Quiterjon. Posts are archived on these boards. Click on Lisa's name and go to the posts tabs - all her posts back to Fri, Oct 29, 2004 are there. Find proof of her taking a pot shot at 4E or Wizards. If you can do that, fine. If you can't (or won't) then in my opinion (hey look, I used the term correctly) you owe Lisa an apology..
Tell you what Quiterjon. Posts are archived on these boards. Click on Lisa's name and go to the posts tabs - all her posts back to Fri, Oct 29, 2004 are there. Find proof of her taking a pot shot at 4E or Wizards. If you can do that, fine. If you can't (or won't) then in my opinion (hey look, I used the term correctly) you owe Lisa an apology..
I wouldn't hold your breath..
"Anyone who has declared someone else to be an idiot, a bad apple, is annoyed when it turns out in the end that he isn't."
Friedrich Nietszche
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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And I await YOUR answer as to whther or not you want my chihuahuas to pose for the sculpt of the "Dire, Fey-Touched, Half-Fiend, Undead Were-Chihuauha" mini! I'm sorry, Ms. Stevens. I am just trying to lighten up an intense mood that Quiterjon has created.I await your answer...
-Lisa
Only if she uses my Chihuahua for the paragon Chihuahua mini. (seriously, Rocky's unique)
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2. Last I heard they were about 3 times the size of what they were in the sets 4-5 years ago (edit at least that was the rumors based on case number information:
Old sets:
Hypertime 8500 cases
Icons 3799 cases (seems low, must not include 96ct boosters)
Collateral Damage 8320 cases
Universe 96ct boosters 1500 cases
Fantastic Forces 9000 cases
Sinister 9290 cases
Indy 600 cases
Since NECCA bouth them out
31,000 cases, and they have been selling out before they are released31,000 cases over, well without 'context'(dontcha love it), 10 releases but only 4 look like they were an actual set is around (discounting the other 6) 7,000 per set Which is lower than half of the sets Cpt kirstov posted. But it gets better, Necca's case sizes is smaller, something like 20,18(according to the internet/secondary markets) you compare that to what was done by Wizkids and Topps of 96, 48 and 20, couple that with what appears to be Necca only producing X amount of product and stopping production. (Hence why you can still buy boosters/cases/singles of old sets, but Necca produced sets are difficult[sometimes extremely] to come buy.)
Ummm... no, that 31,000 cases was for the DC 75th anniversary set... one set. and the threads I've seen say that numbering is consistent with each booster set NECCA has but out, 31,000 cases PER SET. on my reading since I posted the above figures, no one has reported a case below number 10,000 in the DC75 set though (these were most likely opened to confirm that the randomness was generating correctly, and so they would have replacements for figures that arrive broken in the package). So figuring that in, you're still at 21,000 confirmed cases of DC 75th anniversary set, more than double and one set put up by wizkids or topps. unfortunately, I couldn't find any hard numbers on the print runs for the other NECCA sets, just that DC75 number (of 31k) was 'slightly larger' but that they had confirmed cases much lower, so the number that went to distribution should be about the same
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Whereas Quiterjon did not predict the downfall of PFRPG, he did say the following in a Thread tiled "Why Do Pathfinder?":
I guess I question the why of doing this.
One of the reasons given was the issues with not having the rules for 4e, but isn't this doing the same thing? Now other 3rd parties will have to wait until after june-09 to release the updates(ed) versions, lesser of two evils or something?
I understand as a community we are supposed to hate the man, and root for the underdog and all that, I just don't get it. Do you really think the fence sitters will wait another year?
As you can see. Nothing was said about PFRPG's downfall. However, his words make it seem that he insinuated that PFRPG was a bad idea. Sales have proven otherwise. So Quiterjon, on behalf of the ones who misquoted you, all apologies! Okay you have your apology! Now as easy as it was for me to quote you correctly I am sure that you can do the same thing and find Ms. Stevens' quote where she "bashed" 4E, D&D, Wizards of the Coast or Hasbro...OR...you can do the honorable thing of admitting your mistake and apologizing. Time to grow a back bone!
Most of this threrad is really lousy. All I can add is a big "wow" to Lisa. As a small business owner an entrepreneur myself, your willingness and energy to engage in such an inflammatory dead end conversation in commendable.
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Most of this threrad is really lousy. All I can add is a big "wow" to Lisa. As a small business owner an entrepreneur myself, your willingness and energy to engage in such an inflammatory dead end conversation in commendable.
Agreed!
How about if we all do our best to forget about what more or less amounts to a massive thread derail by our friend Quiterjon. No more piling on or commenting etc. IF (and I suspect that is a BIG if) Quiterjon comes back and offers an appology or whatever else, we can let Lisa take it from there.
Otherwise, let's all try to get back to the actual topic - Pathfinder's pre-painted minis from WizKids.
To start us off, here is an actual question:
Did I hear that there will be any kind of samples of these at PaizoCon or are we way to early in the process for that?
Thanks!
You know if the minis are nice {and they prob will be} the next step might be a Mini based game. Which is the best way to get people buying large numbers of mini's, which then allows a large number of game based mini's to be made.
Wizkids does seem to have that area's covered, having Experience in Mini based games, so a partnership for such a game Golarion based most likely would be an interesting and possible next step
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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You know if the minis are nice {and they prob will be} the next step might be a Mini based game. Which is the best way to get people buying large numbers of mini's, which then allows a large number of game based mini's to be made.
Wizkids does seem to have that area's covered, having Experience in Mini based games, so a partnership for such a game Golarion based most likely would be an interesting and possible next step
Hmm, could WizKids make minis that could be on a 1" round base that is removable from a larger dial?
I see no reason why they could not, from what we have heard in this thread the ones they are making for pathfinder are scaled correct and I would think Paizo would make sure they would fit upon the flipmate included in the box.
Wizkids systems use the dials and large base, but that does not mean in partnership or licensed game they may make MUST use that system and large dial now does it?
I see no reason why they could not, from what we have heard in this thread the ones they are making for pathfinder are scaled correct and I would think Paizo would make sure they would fit upon the flipmate included in the box.
Wizkids systems use the dials and large base, but that does not mean in partnership or licensed game they may make MUST use that system and large dial now does it?
Also take into consideration how easy it would be to go the new heroclix format-esque with a card being included with each mini that had very simple version of the characters stats, and maybe a point cost with a nifty little sample booklet with scenerios (maybe even lifted from pathfinder society ones or something) that you could play at... Hmmm...
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You know if the minis are nice {and they prob will be} the next step might be a Mini based game. Which is the best way to get people buying large numbers of mini's, which then allows a large number of game based mini's to be made.
Wizkids does seem to have that area's covered, having Experience in Mini based games, so a partnership for such a game Golarion based most likely would be an interesting and possible next step
At least that would be licensed and not produced by Paizo. Two of my favorite RPG settings effectively died when the publishers of those RPGs decided to get into the miniatures markets with their settings (Heavy Gear and Iron Kingdoms). I'd hate to see the same happen to Pathfinder.
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Most of this threrad is really lousy. All I can add is a big "wow" to Lisa. As a small business owner an entrepreneur myself, your willingness and energy to engage in such an inflammatory dead end conversation in commendable.
Let me attempt to once again "unlousy" it. As others have said, if the future minis concentrate on stuff that are useful to the game (ala Bestiary stuff), and maybe some "special" stuff (Iconics and what not) thrown in here and there, then there would be no problems with sales (well at least not from yours truly). As far as "non-blind packs" an AP collection would be viable (in my opinion only) if it left out any Bestiary items. That way blind, packs would still have to be bought to get everything required for a certain AP. This is even more true if someone is plans on playing iconics with that particular AP and all Iconics are random. Hey these are just my thoughts! You are free to disagree!
Also take into consideration how easy it would be to go the new heroclix format-esque with a card being included with each mini that had very simple version of the characters stats, and maybe a point cost with a nifty little sample booklet with scenerios (maybe even lifted from pathfinder society ones or something) that you could play at... Hmmm...
That would be doable I would think, they could stick to the beastry for much of it, but Sets based off past AP's or area's of Golarion could be fun and provide many interesting and reusable mini's
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Once the futility of locating a direct quote on the Internet becomes an exercise in Google futility, I anticipate a Chewbacca defense.
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Hmm, could WizKids make minis that could be on a 1" round base that is removable from a larger dial?You know if the minis are nice {and they prob will be} the next step might be a Mini based game. Which is the best way to get people buying large numbers of mini's, which then allows a large number of game based mini's to be made.
Wizkids does seem to have that area's covered, having Experience in Mini based games, so a partnership for such a game Golarion based most likely would be an interesting and possible next step
Yeah, it would be kind of a bummer to have to re-base the Paizo pre-paints the way I have to do the horrorclix.
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Lisa is a beacon of integrity - so say we all.
Now, back to the minis...
Would it help if we pre-ordered cases of minis? I still wish to keep my subscriptions, but I would be willing to buy in cases rather than little 4 or 6-packs. I'm not a collector, just someone who plays PATHFINDER RPG and would love to see the beasts come to life as minis. If grouping is a valuable way to distribute, and if we can eliminate random, I would be willing to buy large cases to offset production costs. I would be willing to buy multiples, even without the silly randomizations that supposedly lead people to buy more than they normally would.
One ideal way would be to sell sets, so the purchaser knows what they're getting. I don't need a lot of fancy packaging at all, if it would help reduce costs and get more minis. The quality of the minis is key - by quality I mean design and verisimilitude to the bests within PATHFINDER BESTIARY and any other PFRPG sources. While I love the very strong plastic, even softer plastic with good design appeals to me. In short, maybe the community can figure out how to cut costs... and share what they would buy to help make more efficient choices in production.
I probably own thousands of minis - I haven't counted. Some of my rows are 6-12 deep of the same figure. But my point is that I would still purchase PATHFINDER RPG minis without being a "collector". The value is the "gaming value", especially when it comes to those which spark the imagination or bring classic or new PFRPG beasts and people to life. I should note, the majority of my figures I purchased aftermarket - at costs lower than retail. I figure its worth saying that premium prices could be prohibitive, even if I love the items. So whatever new arrangement we can innovate that avoids random, I'm happy to help with.
Gaming on a battlemat/paizo maps etc. has never been easier than with this rule system. Miniatures such as "complete token sets" would be of value as well. Its true that different GMs play PFRPG differently, and for years I made tokens of my own out of 1" circular magnets and pictures that I would affix to them.
The oddest part of the miniature market over the years has been, for me, the brain-numbing way they were released and the types that were released. Everything PAIZO has done so far has made "gaming sense" as though decisions were made by the players at my table - for this I love you all. This is contrasted by the wierd penchant for "other" companies to release the equivalent of the "hydra-marked clawborn featherfuzzed linnorm". This is to say, I've always been confused why odd altered goofy things were released instead of sticking with bringing the core and classic game material to life.
Probably the most affordable set to make and sell would be COMPLETE BESTIARY TOKENS I, and COMPLETE BESTIARY TOKENS II. But as you can tell by my rambling today... I long for the day when I, as a non-collector, can purchase PATHFINDER RPG pre-pained figures.
Okay, enough for now. As always thanks for listening. Good luck with decisions, no matter which way you go. Whichever you pick-we likely get 100% PAIZO quality goodness.
Thanks,
Pax
Yeah, it would be kind of a bummer to have to re-base the Paizo pre-paints the way I have to do the horrorclix.
I think I'd upgrade that to a royal pain.
It would be a mistake not to implement the round bases used by WOTC, or a close equivalent. I had my fair share of converting bases. I love the legendary encounter miniatures from reaper as well, but I want the round bases ...
It would be a mistake not to implement the round bases used by WOTC, or a close equivalent. I had my fair share of converting bases. I love the legendary encounter miniatures from reaper as well, but I want the round bases ...
I'm in the other camp. Round bases are OK for medium figures. Possibly for large creatures; but huge+ on round bases end up with gaps on the battle mat.
That is one thing I'm really glad WoTC did with the Gargantuan and Colossal dragons. Square bases were a must there.
Basically, I can tolerate round on medium and smaller figures but prefer square bases. IMO square bases work better for squads too.
That makes sense, and I have never purchased the colossal figures, or tried any type of war gaming. But using the throw back molded bases from casted miniatures, or ones that don't use a scale the corresponds with 1 inch square battlemaps, or similar aids was my main concern.
Hot diggity!
Base size was a concern of mine too... I've also had to convert a good portion of Mage knight/ Heroclix/ etc. over to the 1'' bases..
Round.... Square.... i don't care either way, as long as they fit on OUR maps, and not wizkids maps....
Just for those asking about bases. From up the thread.I asked WizKids today about the size for these minis, and they said that size medium creatures will have a 1" base. The approximate height will be 25mm to 30mm.
-Lisa
A timely reminder. Thanks, S.R.
I think I'd upgrade that to a royal pain.
Yeah, it would be kind of a bummer to have to re-base the Paizo pre-paints the way I have to do the horrorclix.
+1
Luckily that will not be a problem here and 25-30" hsould be compatible in size to the mainstream of D&D minis (given that these vary quite a bit by themselves).
So all is golden, as it seems.
Golden, and of course, the future looks green for Paizo and Wizkids. All I need now is more previews. Delicious pictorial previews. The blog would be a great place for that. Anytime Wizkids is ready. Anytime now. I'll check back later today.
Yeah, pictorial previews are it.
I have the DDM gallery bookmarked and, from time to time, ogle at the images and speculate which rare to hunt for next when previewing an Adventure Path module.
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Ah, I think I was misunderstood.
I was thinking of a CMG game, with WizKids dials. It would be nice if the mini had a 1" base attached to the dial so it could be removed/popped off for the RPG, but still have the dial to be used for a 'clicky' CMG.
My son and I used to play MageKnight a lot - it was a lot of fun.
Having said that, I actually hope they don't do that with these. I think these need to be as straight forward as possible and that would include stanard round DDM style bases. I think what you are hoping for would confuse consumes as well as make the minis more complicated (and more expensive) to manufacture.
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Based on the pictures posted from the Beginners Box, it looks like the minis set will probably have a half-dozen goblins, 4 PCs, and large mini of some sort ( can't get a clear shot on what the larger standee is) and a few other odds n ends.
I think that would put it in the $45+ price point... I'm guessing it's just the 4-6 inconics for under $25...
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Based on the pictures posted from the Beginners Box, it looks like the minis set will probably have a half-dozen goblins, 4 PCs, and large mini of some sort ( can't get a clear shot on what the larger standee is) and a few other odds n ends.I think that would put it in the $45+ price point... I'm guessing it's just the 4-6 inconics for under $25...
Lisa previously mentioned a $29.99-$34.99 price point for the set. Based on WizKids' other products, I'd venture that a dozen minis is reasonable for that.
NOT a fan of making a 'game' out of the minis. In fact that was one of the things that bugged me about the WotC ones... and Heroclix for that matter...
The ones with the best 'stats' became uber popular and EXTREMELY expensive.... when all I wanted was to cut off the arms and repaint the head!!
I didn't care about THEIR game... I wanted stand ins for OUR games.
NOT a fan of making a 'game' out of the minis. In fact that was one of the things that bugged me about the WotC ones... and Heroclix for that matter...
The ones with the best 'stats' became uber popular and EXTREMELY expensive.... when all I wanted was to cut off the arms and repaint the head!!
I didn't care about THEIR game... I wanted stand ins for OUR games.
The issue with having no game is thier is nothing to drive them to make massive numbers of mini's. Sure we want them for our game, but RPG needs do not make it profitable to make a large number of different minis.
You need something to drive the creation and sales of the figs, with out some type of game why would you make swarms?Or Dogs? Or any other number of useful minis folks want?
Without some other outlet those minis never get made as the sales numbers can not justify them.
+1 to the game driving more sales.
It's a big benefit - and, it gave me something additional to do with my minis. Always fun to have a pick-up game using the same stuff I've already got for the RPG.
For the WizKids Pathfinder minis - there are 4 in the box:
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Lisa previously mentioned a $29.99-$34.99 price point for the set. Based on WizKids' other products, I'd venture that a dozen minis is reasonable for that.Based on the pictures posted from the Beginners Box, it looks like the minis set will probably have a half-dozen goblins, 4 PCs, and large mini of some sort ( can't get a clear shot on what the larger standee is) and a few other odds n ends.I think that would put it in the $45+ price point... I'm guessing it's just the 4-6 inconics for under $25...
That price was for someone else's hypothetical set which included a flip-mat and other things.
The Beginner Box is a separate product, so the pix from it are not a guide either.
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Lisa previously mentioned a $29.99-$34.99 price point for the set. Based on WizKids' other products, I'd venture that a dozen minis is reasonable for that.Based on the pictures posted from the Beginners Box, it looks like the minis set will probably have a half-dozen goblins, 4 PCs, and large mini of some sort ( can't get a clear shot on what the larger standee is) and a few other odds n ends.I think that would put it in the $45+ price point... I'm guessing it's just the 4-6 inconics for under $25...That price was for someone else's hypothetical set which included a flip-mat and other things.
The Beginner Box is a separate product, so the pix from it are not a guide either.
Yeah. I also realized that the Beginners Box is supposed to have a LOT of standees, so it occurred to me that aside from the iconics I have no idea what subset of the remaining standees might be suitable for the set (although I am hopeful for goblins).
Tho with the news above from ICv2, if the set is ONLY the four iconics, the price point will have to be very friendly for it to spike my interest.
Interesting news. Well, I was hoping for more than four figures, but I will certainly be buying a set with the hope that success with breed more minis.
EDIT: I wonder why the news is up at ICv2 but still not at the Wizkids site. Or, for that matter, here. PaizoCon announcement that got scooped?
Interesting news. Well, I was hoping for more than four figures, but I will certainly be buying a set with the hope that success with breed more minis.
EDIT: I wonder why the news is up at ICv2 but still not at the Wizkids site. Or, for that matter, here. PaizoCon announcement that got scooped?
Four is smaller than I was expecting. Thought it'd be 1 for each PC AND a BBEG. I guess this'll keep the price down to an impulse buy.... $9.99 perhaps?
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Interesting news. Well, I was hoping for more than four figures, but I will certainly be buying a set with the hope that success with breed more minis.
EDIT: I wonder why the news is up at ICv2 but still not at the Wizkids site. Or, for that matter, here. PaizoCon announcement that got scooped?
Hmm.Interesting news. Well, I was hoping for more than four figures, but I will certainly be buying a set with the hope that success with breed more minis.
EDIT: I wonder why the news is up at ICv2 but still not at the Wizkids site. Or, for that matter, here. PaizoCon announcement that got scooped?
Vic always takes care of me. Thanks!
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CEO
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Four is smaller than I was expecting. Thought it'd be 1 for each PC AND a BBEG. I guess this'll keep the price down to an impulse buy.... $9.99 perhaps?Interesting news. Well, I was hoping for more than four figures, but I will certainly be buying a set with the hope that success with breed more minis.
EDIT: I wonder why the news is up at ICv2 but still not at the Wizkids site. Or, for that matter, here. PaizoCon announcement that got scooped?
There just wasn't the time to do a bigger set and get it out in October when the Beginner box is hitting. So we went with the four so we could move quickly.
-Lisa