Here is the prd link:http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/blackTentacles.html#black-te ntacles
This spell is overpowered, and either needs to be changed, or moved up in spell level.
Why is this spell overpowered? Let's look at its basic characteristics and compare it to similar level 4 spells:
School conjuration (creation); Level sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (octopus or squid tentacle)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: none; Spell Resistance: no
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already this should give experienced players pause, a level 4 spell with no immediate draw backs? yes, it requires V, s, M, but that is minor, the M doesn't even cost anything. Compare it to the other classic conjuration spell, summon monster (IV) in this case:
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, F/DF (a tiny bag and a small candle)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one summoned creature
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Notice the range is close, this is a significant difference. But perhaps the actual spell black tentacles isn't as good as summon monster iv?
black tentacles description:
This spell causes a field of rubbery black tentacles to appear, burrowing up from the floor and reaching for any creature in the area.
Every creature within the area of the spell is the target of a combat maneuver check made to grapple each round at the beginning of your turn, including the round that black tentacles is cast. Creatures that enter the area of effect are also automatically attacked. The tentacles do not provoke attacks of opportunity. When determining the tentacles' CMB, the tentacles use your caster level as their base attack bonus and receive a +4 bonus due to their Strength and a +1 size bonus. Roll only once for the entire spell effect each round and apply the result to all creatures in the area of effect.
If the tentacles succeed in grappling a foe, that foe takes 1d6+4 points of damage and gains the grappled condition. Grappled opponents cannot move without first breaking the grapple. All other movement is prohibited unless the creature breaks the grapple first. The black tentacles spell receives a +5 bonus on grapple checks made against opponents it is already grappling, but cannot move foes or pin foes. Each round that black tentacles succeeds on a grapple check, it deals an additional 1d6+4 points of damage. The CMD of black tentacles, for the purposes of escaping the grapple, is equal to 10 + its CMB.
The tentacles created by this spell cannot be damaged, but they can be dispelled as normal. The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the tentacles last.
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Ok, I bolded and or italized the important aspects of this spell.
It attacks on casters turn and also attacks once cast (remember, med. range), As a spell to begin combat or a surprise round, it is difficult to think of anything better. It's CMB tracks with caster level, effectively turning the caster into a fighter in turns of BAB plus 5. For many characters this is crushing, and especially dangerous for spell casters. Quoting grappling rules: Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell. At spell level 4, a caster has recourse to Dimension Door (yes it is V only), what check must the caster make? 10+CMB+spell level -- now remember CMB of Black Tentacles is caster lvl +5, so when confronted with eq. casters they must roll effectively a 15+spell level-abil mod (concentration checks are d20+level+stat bonus) This assumes a caster has DD available and makes an extremely difficult check(will be in the 1/4 or %25 range), if the caster fails the spell is lost. A caster will have virtually no chance of overcoming the grapple otherwise and will be taking 1d6+4 dmg a turn(at 7 turns it is 7d6+28) (compare it to level 4 ice storm 5d6 with spell resist, or level 4 fireball (7d6, reflex save for half and spell resist)
Alright, what can other characters do to help out our beleaguered caster? Since it is a conjuration spell you assume you can attack it? No, remember The tentacles created by this spell cannot be damaged, but they can be dispelled as normal.
Also, as a play note having only one roll for everyone is "unfun", although it decreases the amount of rolls needed (too many rolls can be a headache i know) it tends towards a all or nothing effect, if the dm or caster rolls high everyone is affected, takes damage, gets an additional +5 to future grapple checks, and must spend an action attempting to free themselves. This can quickly lead to a TPK. On the other hand if the one roll is low, the spell has 0 effect, and everyone moves out of range on their turn. Both results are very "unfun" and typically, part of the job of a game designer and DM is to create fewer situations where statistics and dice lead to such extreme results.
What spell do you know of provides mid range, no save, no spell resist, and immune to damage? It tracks with caster lvl for damage of 1d6+4(no cap mind you) and tracks caster level for CMB? for a level 4 spell it is actually very similar to hold person, mass (a level 7 spell) except hold person mass only works on humanoids, provides a will save, spell resist yes, and area of effect ism(effectively) 15ft radius, oh, it also does no damage. & it is a level 7 spell!
This spell is in obvious need of errata.
Some suggestions,
raise the spell level -- level 6 seems correct to me, it would joins spells like repulsion (save yes, spell resis yes), Forceful Hand (spell resis yes) Circle of Death (save yes, spell resis yes, HD cap yes)
Want to keep spell level? Then the spell needs to either be short range, provide spell resis, or be more in line with the fact that it is a CONJURATION spell -- allow players to do damage to it. For flavor, I would recommend giving it DR of 10/magic, hp of 2 per caster level, an AC of 15 plus caster level, and Perhaps give the tentacles a similar defense profile as Devils (Immune fire, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10; SR 10+caster level) And regeneration "special", on casters turn new tentacles regenerate and allow for attacks vs. anyone in the area of effect who isn't already grappled. This would give fighters something to do if their caster gets stuck in this spell. Allows a heroic "rescue" and still slows down the combat (which really should be the primary focus of this spell, not a TPK possibility).
I hope I provided a compelling case of how this spell at level 4 is extremely over powered and some decent solutions to fixing the problem.
Here is the prd link:http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/blackTentacles.html#black-te ntacles...
It's just another legacy spell, like Fireball and Magic Missile. Yes it's more powerful than other 4th level spells, but them's the breaks. Feel free to houserule it, but it will likely always remain as is.
The short answer to your extremely long rant on black tentacles, no offence ment, would be yes it is over powered, and pretty much everyone that plays a caster knows it and uses it.
Loads of guides out there consider black tentacles a must have, along the same lines as color spray that is also rediculous powerfull. Greater invisibility and some other spells have that same label often.
So to there more relevant discussion at hand, is it OP enough to be nerfed? i would say no. The reason being that it is very good, but we cant have perfect balance for all spells, but most importantly becouse it is not an auto win button for all encounters. I would generally put it in a power level just below the raging mounted barbarian, the aura of justice paladin power (probably the best general feature in the game), the magic missile or scorching ray arcane trickster, and some other kinda broken game elements. But while i consider those other powers or classes to be broken enough that i dont play with them, i dont think black tentacles is good enough to just remove from the game, but just good enough that i almost would consider it.
so yes it is very very good, but not OP enough to remove, or atleast that is my oppinion.
For whatever it's worth, the change to grappling rules also make it weaker than its 3.5 counterpart, if only because size bonuses/penalties are less significant.
@Brotato
Yes I know the history of the spell, look at 3.0 (http://www.dragon.ee/30srd/) it had an AC (here i'll quote: It has AC 16, 1 hit point/per caster level, an attack bonus of +1/per caster level, and a Strength score of 19 (+4 bonus). It is immune to spells that don’t cause damage (other than disintegrate).
I could go further back, but I don't think it is necessary.
@Nicklas Laessoe
Color Spray: save yes, spell resis yes, lvl cap yes
Not comparable. Also, range is 15ft.
But Let's continue with your discussion, is it too OP? Everyone plays a little different, but the spell is useful in every equal level encounter with M sized creatures or smaller, and outright deadly for any spell casters. Again the spell does not conform to any of the usual drawbacks, especially considering its level.
Look, Paizo made a mistake, it happens.
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For whatever it's worth, the change to grappling rules also make it weaker than its 3.5 counterpart, if only because size bonuses/penalties are less significant.
This.
Also remember it's a CMD check, meaning melee classes will likely not be grappled in the first place.
Also grappled isn't dead.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Grappled
You can still do things grappled, just at a penalty.
Good spell, but you are at least 7th level if you have it, so it should be.
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The single roll rule is what really keeps it from being overpowered. Like you said the caster can roll low and the victims can roll high. Some times it will rule and others it will blow. It also is better in certain situations (like casting it on a bottle neck in terrain) than others (open ground where enemies not affected can just go around.
I have never had this spell be a deal breaker for my games. If it affects yours then house rule it and call it a day.
It doesn't seem that much worse than summoning a Lion to pounce on a wizard. +13 CMB for grapple, 1d8+3d4+20 total damage if all attacks hit, which includes a grab.
It is mildly annoying against casters, although freedom of movement is available at the same time and totally negates it. Our cleric has that cast practically all the time.
I think Black Tentacles is a good spell, however the last three or so times I've seen it cast (once against the part, twice or more by), it did almost nothing. The time it was cast against the party, it actually hindered the opponent minions more.
Now this is mostly due to low rolls for that CMB check, but it's not that unlikely to do very little. A fighter rolling a CMB at Level +5 isn't all that likely to get much done. A wizard doing it en masse is a bit better, certainly, but it often fails to do anything at all, except clear a region of the battle.
The only real argument I have with the numbers you presented is on the concentration check: probably the lowest chance it will ever be is 30% (needing to roll a 15) for a dimension door (few 7-8th level casters don't have an 18 stat), 35% for dispel magic. They can have the grapple broken by an ally, and could even break free on their own (with no dex, the CMD of the spell isn't all that high, relative to a grappling creature of appropriate CR).
Freedom of Movement is V S M (can't be cast once grappled) it lasts only 10/min a level with a range of touch. If it lasted 1/hr level or had a close range I would think it a viable counter against black tentacles.
It is a area of effect Lion that cannot be killed.
CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier. At level 7, you'll have rougly, maybe a little less, than 50/50 chance hitting a fighter, and you'll almost certainly snag those with a lower BAB
Allow me to present "counter black tentacles".
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/liberating-command
Hah! My players all think this is a crappy spell!
Sure, it works well on classed humanoids alright enough, but pit against nearly any monster in the Bestiary and you are going to be sorely disappointed. More often then not it will end up hindering the party meleeists more than it will the enemy!
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I blame Evard.
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It's not overpowered, and in many cases it isn't even good.
The CMB is caster level +5, against opponents at the same BAB as the caster has levels you're looking at d20+5 vs 10+STR+DEX+size+other bonuses. Many times the difficulty roll here will be stacked even further against you here.And unlike say an area effect save or suck (like confusion for example) you only get your one roll for all the opponents. Basically you have probably a 30% chance of the spell being anything other than hindering terrain for a round as the 'victims' all move...
The fact that it is only one roll is actually a worse problem than if it were roll per target. Basically one high roll could TPK. This would tend less to happen if it is roll per target (instead of a all or nothing effect, there will be more likely some effected)
And remember, level 4 spell is level 7 characters -- fighters are unlikely to have a greater or much greater than +5 bonus from str and dex together. And other characters like wizards/clerics? they'll be much worse off. Again, compare it to other level 4 spells, it is closer in power to a level 6 spell as written. Seems like most players here are coddled by their DMs, which is cool, but when you already have to make allowances for an overpowered spell it is better just to errata it instead of making special exemptions.
And remember, level 4 spell is level 7 characters -- fighters are unlikely to have a greater or much greater than +5 bonus from str and dex together. And other characters like wizards/clerics? they'll be much worse off. Again, compare it to other level 4 spells, it is closer in power to a level 6 spell as written. Seems like most players here are coddled by their DMs, which is cool, but when you already have to make allowances for an overpowered spell it is better just to errata it instead of making special exemptions.
So the fighter has a CMD of:
10 + 7(BAB)+4(Str)+2(Dex)+1(dodge)+1(ring of protection) for a total of 25.
That's a CMD 25 against a bonus of +13 -- if it isn't a human fighter that took his favored bonus for grapple and sunder... in which case the CMD is actually 32.
That is without trying too. The monk will have around the same.
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And remember, level 4 spell is level 7 characters -- fighters are unlikely to have a greater or much greater than +5 bonus from str and dex together. And other characters like wizards/clerics? they'll be much worse off. Again, compare it to other level 4 spells, it is closer in power to a level 6 spell as written. Seems like most players here are coddled by their DMs, which is cool, but when you already have to make allowances for an overpowered spell it is better just to errata it instead of making special exemptions.
So the fighter has a CMD of:
10 + 7(BAB)+4(Str)+2(Dex)+1(dodge)+1(ring of protection) for a total of 25.
That's a CMD 25 against a bonus of +13 -- if it isn't a human fighter that took his favored bonus for grapple and sunder... in which case the CMD is actually 32.
That is without trying too. The monk will have around the same.
Exactly. And again, being grappled isn't a TPK. It's being grappled until you break out of the grapple.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Grappled
Yes I know the history of the spell, look at 3.0 (http://www.dragon.ee/30srd/) it had an AC (here i'll quote: It has AC 16, 1 hit point/per caster level, an attack bonus of +1/per caster level, and a Strength score of 19 (+4 bonus). It is immune to spells that don’t cause damage (other than disintegrate).
You'll also note that that is only in 3.0. Was removed in 3.5 (probably because it made the spell stupidly easy to overcome.)
I have to go back to the 3.5 DMG, because Pathfinder doesn't have pre-made NPCs in the book.
A typical 7th level wizard (minimum necessary to cast this spell), so the spell would make its checks as 1d20+12.
A typical 7th level fighter has Str 16, Dex 13, and a +7 BAB, meaning his CMD is 21. The spell would have to roll a 9 or better, so a 60% chance it will succeed.
A typical 7th level wizard has Str 10, Dex 14, and +3 BAB, for a total CMD of 15. The spell needs to roll a 3 or better, so a 90% chance.
What do we see so far? Well, wizards are very easy to affect with this spell, but that should be the case. Wizards are weak in melee. According to the Bestiary, a CR 7 creature should have a typical AC of 20. The typical fighter above (Str 16, +7 BAB, and a +1 weapon [a bastard sword according to the DMG] according to the DMG) has an attack roll of 1d20+11, so needs to roll a 9 or better, so a 60% chance to hit.
Thats right. A Black Tentacles spell has a 60% chance to affect a fighter, and a fighter has a 60% chance to affect a typical CR 7 monster. Exactly the same. But the spell only does 1d6+4 (Average 7.5)damage, and gets one attack. That fighter gets 2 attacks, each doing (typically) 1d10+3(Str)+1(being a +1 weapon+1 (weapon specailization, so 1d10+5 (average 10.5), or 21 damage with both attacks. So a Black Tentacles spell does on average less damage to its target than the parties fighter, but can potentially harm more people. Seems like a fair trade.
Its a good spell if the enemies are bunched together, but that is where the wizard is supposed to shine. Wizards are for areas, fighters are for single targets. (Though of course there are exceptions. I'm just speaking generally.)
Remember, the numbers I used above were for the typical NPCs as presented in the 3.5 DMG. Player characters generally would have larger numbers, so would be less likely to be affected by the spell.
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Like I mentioned (twice, I believe). I was using the pregenerated NPCs from the 3.5 DMG. Player characters are typically stronger than that, but the game was actually balanced around PCs being close to those NPCs in ability.
And that is where a good amount of the "x is broken/overpowered" things come from. The game was balanced around the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), healing clerics, and blasty wizards. Not their fault no one plays the game as WotC intended. :)
Like I mentioned (twice, I believe). I was using the pregenerated NPCs from the 3.5 DMG. Player characters are typically stronger than that, but the game was actually balanced around PCs being close to those NPCs in ability.
No... NPCs use weaker stats than the PCs do, and have less wealth -- PCs are supposed to be head and shoulders better than NPCs.
NPCs have a 10 point buy -- PCs have a 'minimum recommendation' of 15.
And again these are the 'easy' build fighters too -- not even something spec'ed out to not be had by such a weak spell.
No... NPCs use weaker stats than the PCs do, and have less wealth -- PCs are supposed to be head and shoulders better than NPCs.NPCs have a 10 point buy -- PCs have a 'minimum recommendation' of 15.
And again these are the 'easy' build fighters too -- not even something spec'ed out to not be had by such a weak spell.
You'll notice my last line - I said PCs would typically be better. That would make the spell easier to resist, and would make the fighter hit the typical monster more often. Since the spell is based solely on the casters level, adding more gear doesn't help him. It does help everyone else resist the spell, or do more than the spell would of done. The more gear you add to everyone, the worse the spell actually becomes.
Doesn't change my ultimate point any - that Black Tentacles is not overpowered. It is fine as is.
I used, with great success, the Cityscape Web Enhancement version of this spell for Shadowcasters in the first campaign I played in here in VA. It also had a Will Save for a blindness effect. The DM dreaded this spell almost as much as he dreaded Black Labyrinth. Overpowered or not, it was still a lot of fun to trot out. The Shadowcaster was all about battlefield control and it does a nice job of it.
Go to Cityscape Web Enhancement.
Grasping Shadows
Master, Shadowscape
Level/School: 7th/Conjuration (Creation)
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area/Target: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will partial
Spell Resistance: See text
Stalks of shadows burst from the ground, as though desperate to escape the bonds of the earth, and immediately flail at everyone nearby.
This mystery creates an area of grasping tendrils that function as the spell Evard's black tentacles (PH 228), with one additional hazard: Anyone successfully grappled by a tentacle must attempt a Will save or go blind. A successful save means the individual is safe from blinding during that particular grapple, but if she escapes and is then regrappled, she must make another saving throw. The blindness is permanent until magically cured.
I agree Black Tentacles is quite over powered.
I have seen people die to this spell, experienced high level characters at con's.
I think the worse thing about it is you no longer can attack them.
The fighter or High Bab, may be able to escape,
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I agree Black Tentacles is quite over powered.
I have seen people die to this spell, experienced high level characters at con's.
I think the worse thing about it is you no longer can attack them.
The fighter or High Bab, may be able to escape,
Heh. I have only seen one PC at any threat at all, and that was mainly because the PC was so multiclassed, especially with 3/4 BaB classes, that his CMB was extremely low for his level.
He, and his underpowered lion AC, used up several of our spells and some healing, but the main difficulty of the encounter was that the caster went invisible after casting the tentacles, and our party lacked any way of easily finding him.
I have seen people die to this spell, experienced high level characters at con's.
"High level characters?" Presumably ones that didn't stock Freedom of Movement or wern't flying around somewhere or were terrible main line fighters.
I think the worse thing about it is you no longer can attack them.
If it was removed in 3.5, then you haven't been able to attack them in 8 years.
The fighter or High Bab, may be able to escape,
Or a Rogue with a respectable Escape Artist.
Or a divine caster who get Freedom of Movement at the same level.Or a Wizard with "Dispel Magic."
Black Tentacles is an ok inconvenience, but this isn't some mass murdering spell. I mean, the most it can possibly do is 10xCL. Sure, it looks bad for incompetent bottom of the barrel HP classes with bad Con.
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Hah! My players all think this is a crappy spell!
Sure, it works well on classed humanoids alright enough, but pit against nearly any monster in the Bestiary and you are going to be sorely disappointed. More often then not it will end up hindering the party meleeists more than it will the enemy!
This. A thousand times this.
I picked it up for my Summoner... I traded it for Magic Circle vs Evil (I believe) the next time I could.
I'm glad this has generated discussion and some stat discussion.
What everyone is forgetting is that this spell is med range and one standard action. The next round a spell caster can coat the area affected with fireball, wall of fire, wall of ice, etc, when I speak about it creating a TPK I am assuming this spell can create the basic conditions to lead to a TPK and part of the problem is that it the spell is all about grappling and CMD it also, as written, is determined by one roll of the die one high roll can grapple an entire party for at least one round -- again, go and compare this to hold person mass.
If the spell allowed for spell resist or allowed for the CONJURATION effect to be attacked (which, when it comes to flavor makes sense) the spell would be more in line with its level. Even requiring a roll per target would be a significant change as written. One thing to recall is concentration checks have changed since 3.5, it now much harder for a spell caster to escape once captured.
Also, Dispel Magic is V S, so a spell caster who is grappled (very likely) is unable to cast Dispel Magic.
Funny Thing is, in the end phase of our last campaign the bad guys cast this on my Monk and i just stood /inside/ the tentacles and ignored them.
I think the problem here is that Tentacles are really good against one specifric type of PC.
A spell which is good Vs wizards but only okay vs Monks Rangers Paladins Barbarians hardly falls in the over powered category.
Though i think the ability to ignore the tentacles entirely irked my Dm :P
If you really have a problem with Black Tentacles, then change it. Thats what house rules are for. Meanwhile, the rest of use will use it as written.
Black Tentacles can be powerful if used right. But is useless in smaller areas, as it effects part members too. It is best use against numbers of enemeies - there are far better spells to use against single targets. The strength of Black Tentacles is situational at best.
It's a nice spell for what it is, but it's only so big, attacks indiscriminately, and by the time it comes out a lot of your enemies are literally or functionally immune to it.
10 minutes/level on Freedom of Movement is more than enough time to storm the dungeon or dungeon-like structure of your choice, too, even at level 7. If you're not dead or tapped in an hour you're really not trying.
OP, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but my gut feeling is that you have some misunderstanding of how grappling works in Pathfinder. Generally speaking it's a lot lot lot less of a fight ender than in 3.5.
Legacy spell.
It's much less powerful now than before.
By the time you get it, monsters CMD have started their meteoric rise, making this less and less effective..
You're much better off with a variety of wall spells.
When you say Black Tentacles is better than Summon Monster IV, I simply disagree.
Black Tentacles is a very nice spell when it works, but it only works in limited situations. Summon Monster is extremely versatile.
1. Black Tentacles isn't selective. If your fighter or barbarian friend already rushed into melee, or if you get jumped and surrounded, it is very difficult to try to effect more than one or two enemies without affecting party members as well.
2. If you are just facing a single, challenging monster then they likely have a pretty decent CMD. At 7th level, your CMB will be +12. Even against CR 7 monsters (classed humanoids are often easier) most of them have CMDs in the 20-30 range. That means you are facing a 50% chance of this working. 50% to grapple against average opponents? Not terribly overpowering.
3. It's completely useless against flying opponents, swarms, or aquatic creatures.
4. It's harder to make this spell better through general feats or metamagic unless you are being very selective (eg even though this is a conjuration spell, it doesn't benefit from Spell Focus (conjuration)).
On the other hand, with the Summon Monster spells there is always a monster on the list that can be helpful in a battle. Fight invisible creatures? Bypass heavy DR? Be a meatshield (or three)? Fight flying opponents, swarms, or aquatic creatures? Cast a dozen or two different spells? There is a monster for that.
And outside of battle, Black Tentacles has no use. Summon Monster does. Trapfinding, spying, guarding, item retrieval, multiple spell casting, limited mounts, knowledges, translation services... etc, etc.
Merkatz is extremely generous about what a 1/rd a level monster can do outside combat.
Beyond this, I agree with the majority opinion -- black tentacles isn't overpowered and even useless at times; but this opinion is obviously the opinion of players. DMs, I suspect, are keeping quiet, because they know this is an underused player killing spell.
I can list times when this spell is useless until my face turns blue, but I know in my heart of hearts the vast majority of encounters be they city, dungeons, wilderness, occur in confined spaces without characters flying all about buffed at times with freedom of movement. Next time players count for each encounter(at their start) how many PCs would be hit by a 20 foot radius, it will be educational.
Ultimately this isn't too important, house rules will fix most problems, I brought this up as an opportunity to make the base rules more fun, because as written this spell sucks. Depending on a single d20 roll it can be overpowered or underpowered, but this spell -- because of the lack of interactions with other rules beyond CMD -- is extremely unfun. So continue to use the rules as given, but plenty of players (and DMs) are losing out on a chance to add flavor and fun to their campaigns.
the thing you need to realize is 'characters being unable to do anythig' happens all the time int he Game its just in this case it is Black Tentacles.
At the end of a campaign we just finished one Player got Energy Drained by a Nabaseu then hit with Mass hold person. The first is just a touch attack which ensured the save for the second was impossble.
So he spent the entire fight doing his obligatory role to in theory break it.
It sucks and it isnt fun but it doesnt at all imply a spell is Broken.
Taking a spell that really only works well with one group of PCs (low CMD types mages etc) And making it no loner even be effective against then is a bit pointless.
may as well just remove it.
Though Black Tentacles in an Enclosed room is great. just only ever done it once.
enclosed rooms are terrible, nothing says it doesn't try to grab the caster too
Merkatz is extremely generous about what a 1/rd a level monster can do outside combat.
By seventh level, your summons are lasting for just over a minute per cast, true. But you have access to dozens of different creatures, each with different abilities, skills, powers, spells, etc... This means you literally have hundreds or thousands of uses for this spell.
One minute is enough time for a mephit to turn that stone wall blocking our path easily into clay. Or put out a fire with a water elemental. Or start a fire with a fire elemental. Or have the earth elemental check for secret rooms in a cave. Or have a pack of dogs run wildly down a couple of suspicious hallways to spring any traps. Or ask a magma elemental a basic dungeoneering question or two. Or have a hound archon detect evil on a few things or people for you. Or have a few lantern archons fly high into the air and do a quick check of the land miles around you. Or have a rhino make a really, really big distraction for you.
You can do all this, and a 100 other things with just one spell slot prepared. That's awesome.
enclosed rooms are terrible, nothing says it doesn't try to grab the caster too
To be fair, I think they are talking about opening a door and seeing a bunch of baddies inside the closed room, at which point you black tentacle everyone inside, and proceed to slaughter them at your leisure.
I basically just ban any spell treantmonk highlights in blue. Haste, sleet storm, black tentacles, color spray... They all stink of cheese.
I lol'd.
NPCs have a 10 point buy -- PCs have a 'minimum recommendation' of 15.
Heroic class NPC's in AP's use a 15 point buy, just like everyone else.
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Or a Rogue with a respectable Escape Artist.
Or a divine caster who get Freedom of Movement at the same level.
Or a Wizard or cleric or druid or witch (or any other spellcasting class except ranger) with "Dispel Magic."
(Fixed.)
A 1st-level cleric with the Travel domain will waltz right out of the things.
A 1st-level cleric with the Travel domain will waltz right out of the things.
I fail to see how Agile Feet applies in this case:
Agile Feet (Su): As a free action, you can gain increased mobility for 1 round. For the next round, you ignore all difficult terrain and do not take any penalties for moving through it. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
Black Tentacles are quite powerful against casters that concentrate on casting. Melee opponents or monsters are usually better of. I do not think they are too powerful as they are situational, but they are at the upper end of the scale.
Maybe he meant a cleric with the Liberation domain?
"Liberation (Su): You have the ability to ignore impediments to your mobility. For a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level, you can move normally regardless of magical effects that impede movement, as if you were affected by freedom of movement. This effect occurs automatically as soon as it applies. These rounds do not need to be consecutive."
I'd love it if big spells like this got a 1 round casting time.
Otherwise I don't have too big a problem with it.
Merkatz is extremely generous about what a 1/rd a level monster can do outside combat.Beyond this, I agree with the majority opinion -- black tentacles isn't overpowered and even useless at times; but this opinion is obviously the opinion of players. DMs, I suspect, are keeping quiet, because they know this is an underused player killing spell.
I can list times when this spell is useless until my face turns blue, but I know in my heart of hearts the vast majority of encounters be they city, dungeons, wilderness, occur in confined spaces without characters flying all about buffed at times with freedom of movement. Next time players count for each encounter(at their start) how many PCs would be hit by a 20 foot radius, it will be educational.
Ultimately this isn't too important, house rules will fix most problems, I brought this up as an opportunity to make the base rules more fun, because as written this spell sucks. Depending on a single d20 roll it can be overpowered or underpowered, but this spell -- because of the lack of interactions with other rules beyond CMD -- is extremely unfun. So continue to use the rules as given, but plenty of players (and DMs) are losing out on a chance to add flavor and fun to their campaigns.
If you're now trying to say you dislike the spell because it's a player killer, you're flat wrong. By level 10 if not earlier pretty much everyone is flying unless your party is full of bads.
I basically just ban any spell treantmonk highlights in blue. Haste, sleet storm, black tentacles, color spray... They all stink of cheese.I don't get why haste, but what is wrong with spells that hamper characters? Because they can be used on pcs? So?
Cranewings has a different view of the game than most of the rest of us is all. He has a few threads around here. Those would illustrate the point better than I can.
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Year 2000 called, it wants the spell balance discussion back. Year 2003 would like to chime in as well.
I thought that spell was overpowered when I read it in Unearthed Arcana in 1985 (or whenever it was).
I banned it in my 3.5 games not because it was overpowered, but because making lots of usually-futile grapple checks for mooks was just so darn tedious for me as the DM.
Nobody has cast it in Pathfinder yet, and party composition is such that I doubt anyone will. Which is a shame, because I'd like to see how it works with the new grapple rules.