So am I right that a Rogue UMDing a scroll of this could get off 15 sneak attacks in the surprise round.
Cold Ice Strike is going to need errata, since as written it is overpowered for a lvl 6 spell, and has no components listed
Cold Ice Strike is not overpowered for it's level. It's like delayed blast fireball, with considerably less range, lower damage cap, and without the ability to delay, which is a 7th level spell.
Cold Ice Strike is not overpowered for it's level. It's like delayed blast fireball, with considerably less range, lower damage cap, and without the ability to delay, which is a 7th level spell.
While I understand your arguments, one must not forget that Cold Ice Strike is a swift action. That alone makes it worth having - just toss off some extra damage with that swift action without bothering with Quicken Spell and its caveats.
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So am I right that a Rogue UMDing a scroll of this could get off 15 sneak attacks in the surprise round.
I think you're talking about the spell Holy Ice's Holy Ice Javelin version.
School transmutation [cold, good, water]; Level cleric/oracle 5
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a flask of holy water or 5 pounds of powdered silver worth 25 gp)
EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect wall of ice or flying ice javelins (see text)
Duration 1 minute/level, instantaneous, or until expended (see text)
Saving Throw Reflex negates or none (see text); Spell Resistance yes
Paizo Peripheral
This content is from material published by Paizo Publishing, LLC, but is not part of the Pathfinder Core Rules.
DESCRIPTION
This spell creates a large mass of frozen holy water that can be used for one of two effects.
Holy Ice Wall: This functions like wall of ice (hemisphere or plane). Any creature that takes damage from holy water takes 1 point of damage every time it touches or attacks the ice wall with melee attacks; extended contact with the wall (such as standing or walking on it) deals 1d6 points of damage. Even when the ice has been broken through, a sheet of frigid holy air remains. Any creature that steps through it (including the one who broke through the wall) takes 1d6 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (no save); half of this damage is cold damage, half is damage from holy water (creatures unharmed by holy water do not take the damage).
Holy Ice Javelins: The spell creates a number of javelins of frozen holy water in your square equal to your caster level (maximum 15), which hurl themselves toward one or more targets that are no more than 10 feet away from each other. You must succeed on attack rolls (one per javelin) to hit the target with the javelin, using your base attack bonus + your Wisdom modifier. The javelins deal 1d6 damage each, plus 1 point of cold damage and 1 point of damage from holy water. The javelins are destroyed by this attack.
The UMDing rogue would have to have the scroll in hand within 30 feet to sneak attack with it. You get one javelin per CL; the scroll would have to be CL15 to get 15 javelins. If using the volley rule for sneak attack, only one of the javelins would get sneak attack.
Cold Ice Strike is not overpowered for it's level. It's like delayed blast fireball, with considerably less range, lower damage cap, and without the ability to delay, which is a 7th level spell.While I understand your arguments, one must not forget that Cold Ice Strike is a swift action. That alone makes it worth having - just toss off some extra damage with that swift action without bothering with Quicken Spell and its caveats.
No I'm talking about th Javalin use oh holy ice. That allows an independently targeted 1d6 ranged attack per caster level. That's a bit weak for a cleric but max hat t 15 ranged attacks in one round n a rogue could really go to town.
The UMDing rogue would have to have the scroll in hand within 30 feet to sneak attack with it. You get one javelin per CL; the scroll would have to be CL15 to get 15 javelins. If using the volley rule for sneak attack, only one of the javelins would get sneak attack.
Snack Attack applies to every attack roll that is made. If you target 15 different creatures, and they are all flat-footed, and they all are hit, roll sneak attack 15 times.
So am I right that a Rogue UMDing a scroll of this could get off 15 sneak attacks in the surprise round.I think you're talking about the spell Holy Ice's Holy Ice Javelin version.
** spoiler omitted **...
Where are the volley rules? The core does not carry that limitation.
The UMDing rogue would have to have the scroll in hand within 30 feet to sneak attack with it. You get one javelin per CL; the scroll would have to be CL15 to get 15 javelins. If using the volley rule for sneak attack, only one of the javelins would get sneak attack.Snack Attack applies to every attack roll that is made. If you target 15 different creatures, and they are all flat-footed, and they all are hit, roll sneak attack 15 times.
Spell says you can put more than one attack on the same creature. That's 8d6 * 15 or 120d6 (+30) max potential damage with a 15th level rogue.
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Where are the volley rules? The core does not carry that limitation.
As far as I know, the volley rule isn't printed in PF material, but is in 3.5 material pre-PF; I don't recall the source. If not using it, whatever it's source, then yes, each attack gets sneak attack dice.
Edit: Complete Arcane, p.86; weapon-like spells w/multiple attacks in the same round do SA damage one time. If not using it, it's moot.
That's 8d6 * 15 or 120d6 (+30) max potential damage with a 15th level rogue.
The number of javelins is based on the CL of the scroll, not the level of the rogue, unless you were just using the rogue's level to calc out the potential sneak dice.
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The UMDing rogue would have to have the scroll in hand within 30 feet to sneak attack with it. You get one javelin per CL; the scroll would have to be CL15 to get 15 javelins. If using the volley rule for sneak attack, only one of the javelins would get sneak attack.Snack Attack applies to every attack roll that is made. If you target 15 different creatures, and they are all flat-footed, and they all are hit, roll sneak attack 15 times.
Snack attack generally just applies for when you have the munchies. :)
Sneak attack applies to every attack that qualifies for sneak attack. If using the volley rule, only one of the attacks qualifies. If not using the volley rule, yes, each of them qualifies.
Spell says you can put more than one attack on the same creature. That's 8d6 * 15 or 120d6 (+30) max potential damage with a 15th level rogue.The UMDing rogue would have to have the scroll in hand within 30 feet to sneak attack with it. You get one javelin per CL; the scroll would have to be CL15 to get 15 javelins. If using the volley rule for sneak attack, only one of the javelins would get sneak attack.Snack Attack applies to every attack roll that is made. If you target 15 different creatures, and they are all flat-footed, and they all are hit, roll sneak attack 15 times.
Yep, you're right. Thought I remembered a dev clearing that one up to the way I mentioned. But you are correct sir.
If my GM ever permits the 15 sneak attacks in 1 round, I'd argue that stacking wall of sound and sleet storm to generate an infinite damage combo should be permitted too. And that a magus using consecutive "borrowed time" words of power should be able to chain 20 full attacks in a round.
UM seems to have unleashed alot of insane cheese...
Does it actually state you get to make all the attacks in the same round, or simply that you have that many attacks to make?
I'm reminded of spells like chill touch where you can make 'x' number of attacks -- but it doesn't give you unlimited attacks in a round.
I do not have a copy of the spell in question however.
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If my GM ever permits the 15 sneak attacks in 1 round, I'd argue that stacking wall of sound and sleet storm to generate an infinite damage combo should be permitted too. And that a magus using consecutive "borrowed time" words of power should be able to chain 20 full attacks in a round.
UM seems to have unleashed alot of insane cheese...
I'm not sure that a DC35 UMD to do at most 11d6+2 to 15 targets within 30 feet (assuming lv19+ rogue)is all that cheesy, since you could do the same with a CL11 cone of cold scroll at a lower DC.
I'm not sure that a DC35 UMD to do at most 11d6+2 to 15 targets within 30 feet (assuming lv19+ rogue)is all that cheesy, since you could do the same with a CL11 cone of cold scroll at a lower DC.If my GM ever permits the 15 sneak attacks in 1 round, I'd argue that stacking wall of sound and sleet storm to generate an infinite damage combo should be permitted too. And that a magus using consecutive "borrowed time" words of power should be able to chain 20 full attacks in a round.
UM seems to have unleashed alot of insane cheese...
The cheese is in the 11d6+2 being dealt 15 times to a single target. Pathfinder does not have a "volley rule".
But I sense that we are really arguing the same point from 2 different angles: the 11d6+2 15 times on a single target from 1 scroll should not be allowed.
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I'm not sure that a DC35 UMD to do at most 11d6+2 to 15 targets within 30 feet (assuming lv19+ rogue)is all that cheesy, since you could do the same with a CL11 cone of cold scroll at a lower DC.If my GM ever permits the 15 sneak attacks in 1 round, I'd argue that stacking wall of sound and sleet storm to generate an infinite damage combo should be permitted too. And that a magus using consecutive "borrowed time" words of power should be able to chain 20 full attacks in a round.
UM seems to have unleashed alot of insane cheese...
The cheese is in the 11d6+2 being dealt 15 times to a single target. Pathfinder does not have a "volley rule".
But I sense that we are really arguing the same point from 2 different angles: the 11d6+2 15 times on a single target from 1 scroll should not be allowed.
For some reason I thought that you couldn't target the same creature twice. The real spell is a bit more abusable, but I'll still point out:
DC35 UMD means this is tough for low level characters to pull off.
1500 gp per scroll of icy nuke
not touch attacks, and uses base attack plus Wisdom mod(usually not awesome for rogue types)
I'm not sure that a DC35 UMD to do at most 11d6+2 to 15 targets within 30 feet (assuming lv19+ rogue)is all that cheesy, since you could do the same with a CL11 cone of cold scroll at a lower DC.If my GM ever permits the 15 sneak attacks in 1 round, I'd argue that stacking wall of sound and sleet storm to generate an infinite damage combo should be permitted too. And that a magus using consecutive "borrowed time" words of power should be able to chain 20 full attacks in a round.
UM seems to have unleashed alot of insane cheese...
The cheese is in the 11d6+2 being dealt 15 times to a single target. Pathfinder does not have a "volley rule".
But I sense that we are really arguing the same point from 2 different angles: the 11d6+2 15 times on a single target from 1 scroll should not be allowed.
For some reason I thought that you couldn't target the same creature twice. The real spell is a bit more abusable, but I'll still point out:
DC35 UMD means this is tough for low level characters to pull off.
1500 gp per scroll of icy nuke
not touch attacks, and uses base attack plus Wisdom mod(usually not awesome for rogue types)
You've not seen the rogues a certain friend of mine plays. -_-;; That's a comment about him, not a point of argument btw.
But I will agree that for many players it will be an interesting trick with insanely high damage POTENTIAL. Out of 15 shots, however, I do expect more than a few to hit. I suppose it's a YMMV trick.
Now have you seen my post about overlaying a sleet storm over a wall of sound? =)
So am I right that a Rogue UMDing a scroll of this could get off 15 sneak attacks in the surprise round.Only if the DM allows such volleys to be treated this way. It's nothing new mind you as TK will do the same thing. This spell just makes it a bit easier to walk around..
-James
Yeah,
It's not borked.The scroll costs 1150 gp. So, let's see, a 10th level rogue could pull off a 35 UMD if he were going with a CHA build...
Base : 20 (+5)
Belt : +2 (+1)
Skill Focus (+6)
Ranks : 10 (+10)
Trained : (+3)
Total Bonuses : +25
A typical 10th level rogue has 62,000gp.
So, if he puts all his money int scrolls and buys nothing but the belt, he would have 58,000gp. So, 58,000gp / 1150 gp = 50 autokills.
So he could autokill 50 times using this trick. Of course, he wouldn't survive long enough to do so, since he'd have no equipment and no way to hurt anything other than this spell. Even at 20th level, his wealth is only 880,000. Now, at that point, he could afford to start doing this, and it might be helpful then. But by then, you're dealing with things like elder dragons that do things to stop stuff like that. :)
Even at 20th level, his wealth is only 880,000. Now, at that point, he could afford to start doing this, and it might be helpful then. But by then, you're dealing with things like elder dragons that do things to stop stuff like that.
The idea of "it's not broken because it's expensive" doesn't work.
If you have a one shot kill machine, you'll be able to beat tougher monsters than you normally could. You'll get more treasure. It will pay for itself.
Say you're spending a couple grand on each fight. Say it lets you fight and kill CR 18s instead of CR 16s.
CR 18s have an expected treasure value 16,000 gp higher than CR 15s. You're way in the black.
Every spell that isn't broken because of material component cost has a point where the cost ceases to matter and only the broken does. For a few spells this point would be higher than 20 (such as Wish/Miracle, where the costs are so high as to never be trivial in core, though they did in epic levels back in 3.x) but for most it is lower. For shots of a couple grand that point lies somewhere in the teen levels, depending on just how one-shot the spell is.
Even at 20th level, his wealth is only 880,000. Now, at that point, he could afford to start doing this, and it might be helpful then. But by then, you're dealing with things like elder dragons that do things to stop stuff like that.The idea of "it's not broken because it's expensive" doesn't work.
If you have a one shot kill machine, you'll be able to beat tougher monsters than you normally could. You'll get more treasure. It will pay for itself.
Say you're spending a couple grand on each fight. Say it lets you fight and kill CR 18s instead of CR 16s.
CR 18s have an expected treasure value 16,000 gp higher than CR 15s. You're way in the black.
Every spell that isn't broken because of material component cost has a point where the cost ceases to matter and only the broken does.
Not if you are in a game with a GM who's controlling the treasure. Yep, you can take out one bad guy. There's no guarantee that that bad guy has treasure. Treasure by enemy is a suggestion, not a rule. Additionally, a lot of high CR monsters can have no money at all.
It's the GMs job to balance things in a game. By the time they can afford to blow thousands of gold on this trick, the things they are going against are going to be having defenses against it. Heck, just sending a bunch of 3rd level mooks swarming at the rogue makes this just a way to thin the ranks, not a BBEG instakill.
If you have a one shot kill machine, you'll be able to beat tougher monsters than you normally could. You'll get more treasure. It will pay for itself.
Well I would hope it pays for itself. I hate buying gear that doesn't do what I bought it to do.
Sidenote -- Miracle is free for most uses.
Sillyness and hyperbole.
Do you think you could possibly post without trying to insult someone? Oh wait, never mind... *sigh*
If you're planning on casting 50 times then you invest in a staff, save money and have a much lower DC UMD check. Furthermore then just have a fellow PC recharge the staff (or next level have your cohort do so).
Staff would be 21,250 gp with 10 charges. If you wanted to make it 1 charge per day, it would be 2,125 gp. That's more expensive than the scroll, but it's also requiring a level 10 cleric to recharge it every day, and they can only recharge it to workable condition every 10 days. So, you're getting your friend to give up one 5th level spell slot to keep you in the staff working once every other week. Again, not broken IMHO.
Likewise a circlet of persuasion would really be called for here in such a build. (And I think you meant headband instead of belt).
Meh, yeah, headband. Keep defaulting to thinking of belt = stat item.
Its an easy fix, and honestly something that should make it into the pathfinder core rules.
Not sure what fix you're even talking about.
Technically, the spell says that the javelin's propel themselves. Given that, you wouldn't get sneak attack at all. Just because they use your BAB and wisdom modifier doesn't give you sneak attack (see spiritual weapon for instance).
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Technically, the spell says that the javelin's propel themselves. Given that, you wouldn't get sneak attack at all.
I don't see how this is relevant.
Just because they use your BAB and wisdom modifier doesn't give you sneak attack (see spiritual weapon for instance).
Correct. It isn't the BAB and wisdom modifier that does it. It is that the rogue is making an attack with a weaponlike spell (involves an attack resolved through an attack roll) vs a target who is flat-footed, and thus subject to SA. Spiritual weapon can also be used for SA in the right conditions.
Technically, the spell says that the javelin's propel themselves. Given that, you wouldn't get sneak attack at all.I don't see how this is relevant.
Just because they use your BAB and wisdom modifier doesn't give you sneak attack (see spiritual weapon for instance).Correct. It isn't the BAB and wisdom modifier that does it. It is that the rogue is making an attack with a weaponlike spell (involves an attack resolved through an attack roll) vs a target who is flat-footed, and thus subject to SA. Spiritual weapon can also be used for SA in the right conditions.
Don't think it works that way, and I've never seen anyone suggest that spiritual weapon would receive sneak attack. I know that isn't right.
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Don't think it works that way, and I've never seen anyone suggest that spiritual weapon would receive sneak attack. I know that isn't right.Technically, the spell says that the javelin's propel themselves. Given that, you wouldn't get sneak attack at all.I don't see how this is relevant.
Just because they use your BAB and wisdom modifier doesn't give you sneak attack (see spiritual weapon for instance).Correct. It isn't the BAB and wisdom modifier that does it. It is that the rogue is making an attack with a weaponlike spell (involves an attack resolved through an attack roll) vs a target who is flat-footed, and thus subject to SA. Spiritual weapon can also be used for SA in the right conditions.
Sneak Attack: The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
The rogue is attacking. The target is flat-footed (and thus denied Dex). The conditions are satisfied. The rogue gets sneak attack damage.
As for spiritual weapon, it cannot flank, but if it satisfies the conditions otherwise, it works fine. I've never seen it either, but that's more a function of the rarity of clerics who can deal sneak attack damage than it not working.
If you don't think it works this way, that attacks with the right condition grant sneak attack, how does it work?
If you don't think it works this way, that attacks with the right condition grant sneak attack, how does it work?
The weapon is making the attack, not the rogue.
I was ready to roll with the ruling until I realized that.
A weapon made of force appears and attacks foes at a distance, as you direct it, dealing 1d8 force damage per hit, + 1 point per three caster levels (maximum +5 at 15th level).
Though you may be able to interpret "as you direct it" in a way that qualifies.
As it appears to be a interpretation issue, I'd still go with it. I mean how often can this occur anyway? The target would have to be blind or in magical darkness.
If you don't think it works this way, that attacks with the right condition grant sneak attack, how does it work?The weapon is making the attack, not the rogue.
I was ready to roll with the ruling until I realized that.
A weapon made of force appears and attacks foes at a distance, as you direct it, dealing 1d8 force damage per hit, + 1 point per three caster levels (maximum +5 at 15th level).Though you may be able to interpret "as you direct it" in a way that qualifies.
As it appears to be a interpretation issue, I'd still go with it. I mean how often can this occur anyway? The target would have to be blind or in magical darkness.
Rogue : Weapon! Attack him from the opposite side as I do!
Weapon : Okie Dokie Boss!Rogue : Cool! We both flank now and we both get SA!
*buzzzzzzz*
Sneak Attack: The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.The rogue is attacking. The target is flat-footed (and thus denied Dex). The conditions are satisfied. The rogue gets sneak attack damage.
As for spiritual weapon, it cannot flank, but if it satisfies the conditions otherwise, it works fine. I've never seen it either, but that's more a function of the rarity of clerics who can deal sneak attack damage than it not working.
If you don't think it works this way, that attacks with the right condition grant sneak attack, how does it work?
Spiritual weapon is not the rogue's attack -- the spiritual weapon has its own attacks.
Same with summoned creatures among other things.
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If you don't think it works this way, that attacks with the right condition grant sneak attack, how does it work?Spiritual weapon is not the rogue's attack -- the spiritual weapon has its own attacks.
Same with summoned creatures among other things.
Ok, so the argument is that a separate object that has attacks of its own don't get sneak attack. I agree with this. Summoned creatures most certainly don't get sneak attacks; the rogue isn't doing the attacking, the critter is. Such is the nature of conjuration (summoning or calling).
Spiritual weapon is an evocation spell. It manipulates energy (in this case force) to bring the weapon into existence. The abilities of the weapon are modified by the caster, but the caster doesn't expend additional actions to make attacks. Ok, I'd agree that the caster isn't attacking and thus doesn't SA. My bad and thanks for helping me learn something new.
Holy Ice is a transmutation spell. As an aside, I'm calling foul on this. It shouldn't be transmutation. "Transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, thing, or condition." This does none of these. Rather, it creates stuff, which should be evocation if the creation is of energy or conjuration (creation) if of matter (that sound is Einstein rolling in his grave). I would think evocation in this case (see wall of ice). However, the rogue is making the attacks. This part of the thread stemmed out of the observation that the javelins propel themselves; I'd call this fluff text..the rogue makes the attack roll.
So, rogues making attacks with spells in the right conditions gives sneak attacks. Spiritual weapon doesn't because the rogue isn't making the attack. Holy Ice (javelins variation) has rogue making the attacks; sneak attack stands.
Rogue : Weapon! Attack him from the opposite side as I do!
Weapon : Okie Dokie Boss!
Rogue : Cool! We both flank now and we both get SA!*buzzzzzzz*
:p
The spell text says it doesn't threaten. The only way it's possible is if the target was unable to react to the threat. And that's with a liberal interpretation of the rules.Spiritual weapon is not the rogue's attack -- the spiritual weapon has its own attacks.
Same with summoned creatures among other things.
That was my thought as well. I just don't know that it's a big deal.
Holy Ice is a transmutation spell. As an aside, I'm calling foul on this. It shouldn't be transmutation. "Transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, thing, or condition." This does none of these. Rather, it creates stuff, which should be evocation if the creation is of energy or conjuration (creation) if of matter (that sound is Einstein rolling in his grave).
I think it's altering the moisture in the air and turning it into ice. That would be transmutation.
Back in 3.5, if you tried to cast an [Ice] or [Water] spell in the desert, you had issues with it working (see Sandstorm). So that works for me, an arid environment would cause issues for it working, a moist cold environment might give it boosts (see Frostburn).
Rogue : Weapon! Attack him from the opposite side as I do!
Weapon : Okie Dokie Boss!
Rogue : Cool! We both flank now and we both get SA!*buzzzzzzz*
:p
The spell text says it doesn't threaten. The only way it's possible is if the target was unable to react to the threat. And that's with a liberal interpretation of the rules.
Yes, but then I don't get to do my funny weapon voice. :)
The spell creates a number of javelins of frozen holy water in your square equal to your caster level (maximum 15), which hurl themselves toward one or more targets that are no more than 10 feet away from each other. You must succeed on attack rolls (one per javelin) to hit the target with the javelin, using your base attack bonus + your Wisdom modifier.
They throw themselves -- you don't do so. You make the attack roll because it is 'your' spell.
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The spell creates a number of javelins of frozen holy water in your square equal to your caster level (maximum 15), which hurl themselves toward one or more targets that are no more than 10 feet away from each other. You must succeed on attack rolls (one per javelin) to hit the target with the javelin, using your base attack bonus + your Wisdom modifier.They throw themselves -- you don't do so. You make the attack roll because it is 'your' spell.
Yeah, as said, I see this as fluff. I expect this would see variance based on that. I think the volley rule concept is the solution to this. Allow one sneak attack and be done. YMMV.
Yeah, as said, I see this as fluff. I expect this would see variance based on that. I think the volley rule concept is the solution to this. Allow one sneak attack and be done. YMMV.The spell creates a number of javelins of frozen holy water in your square equal to your caster level (maximum 15), which hurl themselves toward one or more targets that are no more than 10 feet away from each other. You must succeed on attack rolls (one per javelin) to hit the target with the javelin, using your base attack bonus + your Wisdom modifier.They throw themselves -- you don't do so. You make the attack roll because it is 'your' spell.
Now if you were an arcane trickster with their capstone yeah I could see the damage being done, but without that I'm seeing individual weapons attacking without actual guidance from the rogue in question.
Which is the biggest problem for me on this.
Yeah, as said, I see this as fluff. I expect this would see variance based on that. I think the volley rule concept is the solution to this. Allow one sneak attack and be done. YMMV.The spell creates a number of javelins of frozen holy water in your square equal to your caster level (maximum 15), which hurl themselves toward one or more targets that are no more than 10 feet away from each other. You must succeed on attack rolls (one per javelin) to hit the target with the javelin, using your base attack bonus + your Wisdom modifier.They throw themselves -- you don't do so. You make the attack roll because it is 'your' spell.Now if you were an arcane trickster with their capstone yeah I could see the damage being done, but without that I'm seeing individual weapons attacking without actual guidance from the rogue in question.
Which is the biggest problem for me on this.
emphasis changed
But then it says "You must succeed on attack rolls".
Ok so which is it? Anyone got further evidence or insight?
The spell creates a number of javelins of frozen holy water in your square equal to your caster level (maximum 15), which hurl themselves toward one or more targets that are no more than 10 feet away from each other. You must succeed on attack rolls (one per javelin) to hit the target with the javelin, using your base attack bonus + your Wisdom modifier.They throw themselves -- you don't do so. You make the attack roll because it is 'your' spell.
This is how I see it as well. I can understand why Howie might think it is fluff text, but there is nothing else to indicate that the caster is affecting the attack (as an attack). I don't see this getting any benefit from Bless or Haste or Inspire Courage or any other benefit of the attacker either. Bonuses due to conditions on the target (like blindness) would apply, but I can't see sneak attack having anything to do with it.
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Well... The javelins won't roll the dice for you.But then it says "You must succeed on attack rolls".
Ok so which is it? Anyone got further evidence or insight?
*drops 15x d20s into holy water spell component, and casts spell* "Go attack!" 15 ice javelins, each with a d20 frozen inside fly at my opponent... miraculously the ones that hit all roll a 15 or higher after the shattering ice releases the dice.
Technically, the spell says that the javelin's propel themselves. Given that, you wouldn't get sneak attack at all. Just because they use your BAB and wisdom modifier doesn't give you sneak attack (see spiritual weapon for instance).
Personally, I think this is correct, and major props to you for noticing it!
Unlike a ray that is aimed by you and directed by you, "The spell creates a number of javelins of frozen holy water in your square...which hurl themselves toward one or more targets that are no more than 10 feet away from each other". It sounds like the extent of your control over the javelins is choosing which targets the javelins launch themselves at. Further indication that this is the right reading is that they do not benefit from buffs or items that increase your accuracy-heroism or a bard's spell would not help you aim them better. It just does not seem that you have the fine control over them required to deal precision damage of any sort.
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Unlike a ray that is aimed by you and directed by you, "The spell creates a number of javelins of frozen holy water in your square...which hurl themselves toward one or more targets that are no more than 10 feet away from each other". It sounds like the extent of your control over the javelins is choosing which targets the javelins launch themselves at. Further indication that this is the right reading is that they do not benefit from buffs or items that increase your accuracy-heroism or a bard's spell would not help you aim them better. It just does not seem that you have the fine control over them required to deal precision damage of any sort.
I'm curious why folks think that buffs wouldn't help. I guess this is consistent with the idea that the rogue isn't attack, the javelins are, so goes along with that opinion split. Not sure if I'm in my own little world here or what. :)
Edit: On additional thought, if the no-buffs stems from the "javelin attacks, rogue doesn't" idea, then using it to support that this is the correct interpretation is a bit of circular reasoning.
I'm curious why folks think that buffs wouldn't help. I guess this is consistent with the idea that the rogue isn't attack, the javelins are, so goes along with that opinion split. Not sure if I'm in my own little world here or what. :)Edit: On additional thought, if the no-buffs stems from the "javelin attacks, rogue doesn't" idea, then using it to support that this is the correct interpretation is a bit of circular reasoning.
Uhm, how about the spell itself?
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per javelin) to hit the target with the javelin, using your base attack bonus + your Wisdom modifier.
If you are a level 15 rogue, your base attack bonus is 10. It doesn't matter what you have on, you have a base attack bonus of 10. If you're wearing a +6 Wisdom headband, then you get your wisdom mod +6, but that's it. None of your feats help, your dex doesn't help, your str doesn't help.
Unlike a ray that is aimed by you and directed by you, "The spell creates a number of javelins of frozen holy water in your square...which hurl themselves toward one or more targets that are no more than 10 feet away from each other". It sounds like the extent of your control over the javelins is choosing which targets the javelins launch themselves at. Further indication that this is the right reading is that they do not benefit from buffs or items that increase your accuracy-heroism or a bard's spell would not help you aim them better. It just does not seem that you have the fine control over them required to deal precision damage of any sort.I'm curious why folks think that buffs wouldn't help. I guess this is consistent with the idea that the rogue isn't attack, the javelins are, so goes along with that opinion split. Not sure if I'm in my own little world here or what. :)
Edit: On additional thought, if the no-buffs stems from the "javelin attacks, rogue doesn't" idea, then using it to support that this is the correct interpretation is a bit of circular reasoning.
Short answer would be that the javelins do not seem to be wielded by you, but rather by the magic of the spell, in a manner similar to mage's sword and twilight knife. Comparison of the way the spells are worded seems to support this.