Dagger 1d4 damage, 19-20 crit 10 foot throw +2 SoH to hide Light weapon
War Razor 1d4 damage, 19-20 crit +2 SoH to hide Light weapon (Requires martial weapon)
Butterfly knife 1d4 damage, 19-20 crit 1hand weapon (Requires exotic weapon prof. Possibly also need Quick draw to properly use it, which still brings it up to the point of dagger.)
Isn't this backwards?
Shouldn't a dagger that goes through martial and then into exotic get progressively better?
I don't know why War-razors by the latest supplement got an 19-20 crit. In the past they had 18-20 and as a result where slightly better at melee than daggers. But when reprinted in adventurers armory, they were reduce to the 19-20 crit instead.
And butterfly knives..
Butterfly Knife: A butterfly knife has a blade concealed
between two halves of the handle that can be brought to
bear quickly. If you are proficient with the butterfly knife
(or have the Quick Draw feat) and are holding it in your
hand, you may open it as a free action; a nonproficient user
must spend a move action to open it. Otherwise, treat this
weapon as a dagger.
There is no point to this. Especially since you lose the ability to finesse the butterfly knife if you are prof with it and your ability to duel wield goes down. Not to mention you cannot throw it anymore.
[Obligatory spiked chain comment].
[Obligatory subsequent Falcata comment].
See your point, regardless the above. Flavour should be flavour, mechanics mechanics, meaningful choice should exist without an useless, unneded total balance, but remaining meaningful.
Weapon proficiency is 100% arbitrary in Pathfinder.
You are assuming that Simple Weapons are weaker then Martial Weapons then Exotic Weapons.
Each step does not have to be "better". Simple means it is simple to use. Martial means it takes a little more skill to use it right, and exotic means very few people will fight with it. There is no rule that says an Exotic Weapon must out performs a simple weapon.
What is exotic to some is martial or simple to others. (Such as racial weapons.)
Weapon proficiency is 100% arbitrary in Pathfinder.
As it is in any d20 rpg
Weapon proficiency is 100% arbitrary in Pathfinder.As it is in any d20 rpg
But especially in Pathfinder as a dev admitted to it. He didn't say it was arbitrary of course, he offered some bs definition of how it is defined.
There is no rule that says an Exotic Weapon must out performs a simple weapon.
Which is why the system is stupid. If I need to burn a FEAT to use something, it better be bloody better.
Exotic is by definition different. If it was supposed to be better they would have called it Superior Weapon Proficiency.
...SNIP...
Started to type out more of a response, then looked up the chain. Not interested in getting into a pointless argument.
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Weapon proficiency is 100% arbitrary in Pathfinder.As it is in any d20 rpgBut especially in Pathfinder as a dev admitted to it. He didn't say it was arbitrary of course, he offered some bs definition of how it is defined.
There is no rule that says an Exotic Weapon must out performs a simple weapon.Which is why the system is stupid. If I need to burn a FEAT to use something, it better be bloody better.
You complain about this, but you do not even state anything about the monk weapons (Kama, nunchaku, sai, siangham, and shuriken). Most of these are subpar weapons that, if you are not a monk, take a feat to use.
Exotic means different, not melee++.
Weapon proficiency is 100% arbitrary in Pathfinder.As it is in any d20 rpgBut especially in Pathfinder as a dev admitted to it. He didn't say it was arbitrary of course, he offered some bs definition of how it is defined.
There is no rule that says an Exotic Weapon must out performs a simple weapon.Which is why the system is stupid. If I need to burn a FEAT to use something, it better be bloody better.You complain about this, but you do not even state anything about the monk weapons (Kama, nunchaku, sai, siangham, and shuriken). Most of these are subpar weapons that, if you are not a monk, take a feat to use.
Exotic means different, not melee++.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure what part of "If I need to burn a FEAT to use something, it better be bloody better." is confusing to everyone.
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Weapon proficiency is 100% arbitrary in Pathfinder.he offered some bs definition of how it is defined.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure what part of "If I need to burn a FEAT to use something, it better be bloody better." is confusing to everyone.
If you weren't so antagonistic, a decent discussion could be had here.
[edit: included previous antagonistic posts]
The monk weapons could not be a point because monks use special stuff with those (flurry, perfect strike). So OK, ther are not super awesome but someone use them differently.
Other exotic weapons are just.. WHAT?
Has anyone ever looked at the APG boomerang? It does not even come back.
WHY?
Has anyone ever looked at the APG boomerang? It does not even come back.
WHY?
Just replying to the boomerang specifically: boomerangs are sophisticated-ish throwing clubs. They were made to return to the thrower if they did not strike their target so that the thrower could try again.
When hunting in the wild, in real life, the aboriginals of Australia, who invented the boomerang, would aim for the head of kangeroos, in order to stun them so that they could run up to the stunned animal and kill it. You miss = a second attempt; you hit = run up and kill it.
The boomerang does not return on a successful strike because it has imparted it's kinetic energy into the target, doing damage, and drops to the ground.
You are assuming that Simple Weapons are weaker then Martial Weapons then Exotic Weapons.
Each step does not have to be "better". Simple means it is simple to use. Martial means it takes a little more skill to use it right, and exotic means very few people will fight with it. There is no rule that says an Exotic Weapon must out performs a simple weapon.
What is exotic to some is martial or simple to others. (Such as racial weapons.)
I can see you point for simple and martial. But for exotic, you better offer me something more for the feat I'm spending.
i beleive the designers should have gone with generic weapon templates with customizable trait pools.
the same could also be done with armor.
Kyrt Ryder has a great system for it that he happens to be working on.
boomerangs only come back if you miss. I have an Aussie Rabbi his demonstration was somewhat painful.
as for exotic being better I will state that it is not truly exotic as quick draw (a common rogue/knife fighter) feat can replace this, now then it does take some time and hand eye coordination to use a butterfly knife, on the other hand they are reasonably balanced so being able to throw them would make some sense to me.
Now then it has been somewhat standard to have gear progress up the charts with proficiency
IE: a short sword simple deals less damage than the martial equivalent the long sword which deals less damage than the exotic equivalent the bastard sword. (in the view of wielding them one handed) Same with axe progression, and I do believe spear progression but I would have to double check that one.
Now then if you don't want to spend the feat on it, then you can either not get the weapon and get your dagger, or you can talk with your GM about revamping the gear.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Just replying to the boomerang specifically: boomerangs are sophisticated-ish throwing clubs. They were made to return to the thrower if they did not strike their target so that the thrower could try again.
When hunting in the wild, in real life, the aboriginals of Australia, who invented the boomerang, would aim for the head of kangeroos, in order to stun them so that they could run up to the stunned animal and kill it. You miss = a second attempt; you hit = run up and kill it.
The boomerang does not return on a successful strike because it has imparted it's kinetic energy into the target, doing damage, and drops to the ground.
Hunting boomerangs don't generally return hit or miss. They're throwing sticks. Paizo got this one dead right in the books.
Hunting boomerangs don't generally return hit or miss. They're throwing sticks. Paizo got this one dead right in the books.
Cool, didn't realize that. *thumbs up*
Actually, butterfly knife requires proficiency OR quick draw to open as a free action. So if you are a character that has quick draw for some other reason, you might as well use a butterfly knife as your spare weapon instead of a dagger.
Dagger 1d4 damage, 19-20 crit 10 foot throw +2 SoH to hide Light weapon
War Razor 1d4 damage, 19-20 crit +2 SoH to hide Light weapon (Requires martial weapon)
Butterfly knife 1d4 damage, 19-20 crit 1hand weapon (Requires exotic weapon prof. Possibly also need Quick draw to properly use it, which still brings it up to the point of dagger.)Isn't this backwards?
Shouldn't a dagger that goes through martial and then into exotic get progressively better?
I don't know why War-razors by the latest supplement got an 19-20 crit. In the past they had 18-20 and as a result where slightly better at melee than daggers. But when reprinted in adventurers armory, they were reduce to the 19-20 crit instead.
And butterfly knives..
There is no point to this. Especially since you lose the ability to finesse the butterfly knife if you are prof with it and your ability to duel wield goes down. Not to mention you cannot throw it anymore.Butterfly Knife: A butterfly knife has a blade concealed
between two halves of the handle that can be brought to
bear quickly. If you are proficient with the butterfly knife
(or have the Quick Draw feat) and are holding it in your
hand, you may open it as a free action; a nonproficient user
must spend a move action to open it. Otherwise, treat this
weapon as a dagger.
To be blunt and honest, it is just item bloat best ignored in most circumstances.
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IF you want to talk about a weapon that needs to be changed lets talk starknife. 1d4 damage??? really? Either every representaiton of it is way off or it is way underdamaged. Too bad because I love the concept but even as a priest of Desna how can you justify a main weapon that does 1d4 and you throw it away. Perhaps if proficiency also gave you the ability to have it return like a boomerang. That might make it cool enough to overcome the low damage.
Cartigan has made a very valid point: burning a feat should grant you some sort of mechanical advantage. That's what feats do. I understand that one might claim, "Exotic weapons are by definition different; you're spending the feat to be different." Still, I can't think of a single feat that doesn't offer some sort of mechanical advantage.
IF you want to talk about a weapon that needs to be changed lets talk starknife. 1d4 damage??? really? Either every representaiton of it is way off or it is way underdamaged. Too bad because I love the concept but even as a priest of Desna how can you justify a main weapon that does 1d4 and you throw it away. Perhaps if proficiency also gave you the ability to have it return like a boomerang. That might make it cool enough to overcome the low damage.
Priests of Desna, like Priests of Pharasma (favored dagger) most likely use maces or morningstars in combat and carry a ceremonial version of the favored weapon for rites and such. However, I think ceremonial athames et all could be covered and flavor and favored weapons, by definition, should be more combat oriented. I've been of a mind for some time to redo the favored weapons wholesale, as many of them need improvement.
Cartigan has made a very valid point: burning a feat should grant you some sort of mechanical advantage. That's what feats do. I understand that one might claim, "Exotic weapons are by definition different; you're spending the feat to be different." Still, I can't think of a single feat that doesn't offer some sort of mechanical advantage.
+1 Feats are not something PCs can just buy... If not for that, I would agree that it's not a big deal that they have their own category, but the use of a feat should confer something more than a +1 to CMD for disarm attempts, or a +2 to sleight of hand to hide the item. Those bonuses are far beneath the use of a feat.
I may be onto something with "buying feats"... maybe just paying a fee in gold to train with a weapon rather than using a feat...
Removed a post - please post nicely, thanks!
Cartigan has made a very valid point: burning a feat should grant you some sort of mechanical advantage. That's what feats do. I understand that one might claim, "Exotic weapons are by definition different; you're spending the feat to be different." Still, I can't think of a single feat that doesn't offer some sort of mechanical advantage.
This. The big problem is that the category "Exotic Weapons" is a little too all-encomapssing, and includes both weapons that are more powerful than martial weapons, but were historically or setting-specifically actually pretty common, as well as weapons that are barely superior to martial counterparts (or equal to, or in some cases inferior to them), but are truly "exotic." The category blurs the line between flavor distinction and mechanics/balance issue. Anyone who doesn't believe that while some weapons are listed as exotic simply for flavor, others are there for balance, try suggesting a new weapon, and give it some abilities that make it do what an existing weapon does, only better. Someone will say it should therefore be exotic in 5,4,3,2,1...
Perhaps the answer is to separate the two from each other. The gimped/nerfed/unimpressive weapon that are "Different", still call them "Exotic" -- but proficiency with them requires only A) Spending a trait and/or B)Having Martial Weapons Proficiency and spending a/some skill point(s). The truly badass weapons, the ones that do things other weapons can't and pot the fear of the gods in NPC's... rename those "Prestige Weapons", and yes, proficiency with them requires a feat.
Weapon proficiency is 100% arbitrary in Pathfinder.As it is in any d20 rpg
Star Wars Saga's proficiency system is extremely balanced by comparison (you get what you pay for when spending feats on weapon training). It's a d20 product. WotC and Paizo have no excuse.
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Cartigan has made a very valid point: burning a feat should grant you some sort of mechanical advantage. That's what feats do. I understand that one might claim, "Exotic weapons are by definition different; you're spending the feat to be different." Still, I can't think of a single feat that doesn't offer some sort of mechanical advantage.No he isn't. First, nobody is forcing you spend a feat on something you don't want. If you don't think it's worth the effort, don't take the feat.
Just like Acrobatic, I find it retarded to spend a feat on it though that does not mean that it has to be excluded from the rules. And here is why.
First, there are other people besides us. And some way find it worth a feat, some want to play with special fluff or some GM might hand the feats out for fun just because they don't really change much anyway.
Second, there are parts of the rules that are there to support NCP. I'm not an expert in cleric though the Animal Domain seem complete underwhelming. I'm not an expert on sorcerers though blood line feat that require a melee touch attack seems not so interesting for a d6 character class. And last but not least, I'm no expert on druids though the dog and poison viper are not good choices for animal companion.
But this doesn't mean we should start complaining about class features that don't offer anything. They are there to offer special, unique concept to some characters. And yes, some of these choices are not the best and some are probably best reserved for NPC's, though this is not a problem.
+1
Cartigan has made a very valid point: burning a feat should grant you some sort of mechanical advantage. That's what feats do. I understand that one might claim, "Exotic weapons are by definition different; you're spending the feat to be different." Still, I can't think of a single feat that doesn't offer some sort of mechanical advantage.No he isn't. First, nobody is forcing you spend a feat on something you don't want. If you don't think it's worth the effort, don't take the feat.
Just like Acrobatic, I find it retarded to spend a feat on it though that does not mean that it has to be excluded from the rules. And here is why.
First, there are other people besides us. And some way find it worth a feat, some want to play with special fluff or some GM might hand the feats out for fun just because they don't really change much anyway.
Second, there are parts of the rules that are there to support NCP. I'm not an expert in cleric though the Animal Domain seem complete underwhelming. I'm not an expert on sorcerers though blood line feat that require a melee touch attack seems not so interesting for a d6 character class. And last but not least, I'm no expert on druids though the dog and poison viper are not good choices for animal companion.
But this doesn't mean we should start complaining about class features that don't offer anything. They are there to offer special, unique concept to some characters. And yes, some of these choices are not the best and some are probably best reserved for NPC's, though this is not a problem.
I don't have to buy it with a feat is not a good excuse. I might want the weapon, and I should not have to spend a feat on flavor since that is really what the exotic weapons are for the most part. That is like if I want my character to exceed the normally height or weight for his race by a small amount and the GM makes up feat called "Extra Large", and requires me to take it. I am probably just going to pass on the idea the same way many people do with the exotic weapons.
I am not saying all choices should be equal and neither is Cartigan. We are saying that if I spend a resource I expect a return.
A GM fixing it or handing out the feats for free does not mean there is nothing wrong with it.
The exotic weapon rules are not here just for NPC's either so that argument does not really apply. I think the assassin class was made as an NPC class for the most part, but it was also in the DMG in 3.5.
I don't have to buy it with a feat is not a good excuse. I might want the weapon, and I should not have to spend a feat on flavor since that is really what the exotic weapons are for the most part.
+1
Star Wars Saga's proficiency system is extremely balanced by comparison (you get what you pay for when spending feats on weapon training). It's a d20 product. WotC and Paizo have no excuse.Weapon proficiency is 100% arbitrary in Pathfinder.As it is in any d20 rpg
Could you elaborate some more, without breaking any copyright laws? I'm intrigued.
Could you elaborate some more, without breaking any copyright laws? I'm intrigued.Star Wars Saga's proficiency system is extremely balanced by comparison (you get what you pay for when spending feats on weapon training). It's a d20 product. WotC and Paizo have no excuse.Weapon proficiency is 100% arbitrary in Pathfinder.As it is in any d20 rpg
There are certain weapons that are definitely better than other weapons in SW Saga, but they cost a feat.
RD has a good point here though.Light Sabers ignore DR
Another weapon forces you to take half the original damage on the following round if it beats your reflex and fort defense bonuses.
There is a ranged weapon that can disintegrate people. It is illegal though so don't get caught with it.
There is another that can bypass a jedi's ability to block/deflect ranged attacks.
There is one with a base damage of 2d12. I would take a feat for that.
You complain about this, but you do not even state anything about the monk weapons (Kama, nunchaku, sai, siangham, and shuriken). Most of these are subpar weapons that, if you are not a monk, take a feat to use.
Exotic means different, not melee++.
Actually lets go through the monks weapons here that are "subpar".
Kama 1d6 light tripping weapon. Compared to sickle. Yes weapon wise these are the same. Historically Kama are actually sickles in eastern areas.
Kama is a traditional Filipino and Japanese farming implement similar to a sickle or a small scythe used for reaping crops and also employed as a weapon
However there is a use for it. And that is the monk. Why they couldn't say sickle in the first place, I dunno. For this to be the equivalent of say, the Butterfly knife, We would first need to put on some obstinate rules about how you cannot just draw the weapon, but you also have to preform some sacred ritual as a move action unless you have (x) feats.
Nunchaku and Sai both have the disarm tags. No light simple weapon has disarm. No light martial weapon has disarm. So these are actually better as now even if you are not a monk you can duel wield disarming weapons if that's what you want to do.
Shurikin count as ammo when drawing. No Quick Draw is needed in order to use them as a full attack. This is better than darts in this matter since they can more easily be thrown. Their size is also a benefit, as you can more easily hide them (There were some rules for this back in 3.5).
Saigiam.. Well that's basically the short sword. Only benefit of course is again that it is a monk weapon. There was some sort of trick that was suppose to be used with this though, but I forgot what it was. I think something to do with duelist or whatever.
So only 2/5 of the "subpar" weapons are truly subpar. That is the kama and saigiam. However they are no where as bad, as they have their use as a monk weapon.
Many of the people posting in this thread seem to forget things. A weapons use isn't just about how big its damage die is, or its critical. Its the other things that the weapon can do. If say the war razor, due to being its own sheath, had additionally hide bonuses on top of the normal dagger bonuses.. Then it would have use over the dagger and thus be a better weapon worthy of its martial weapon prof.
And butterfly knives.. Why do we like them?
In otherwords, put in a free Dazzling Display when you first open the knife in combat with the prof, and poof. You now have a feat worthy weapon.
Especially if it wasn't a 1handed weapon. Cause I'm sorry, but you don't freeking use brute strength to handle this weapon. You aren't wielding a battle ax. You are handling a needle.
Heck you should probably also throw in a +2 feint bonus when using this weapon, as it is kinda disorienting having a guy open and close his dagger all the time.
IF you want to talk about a weapon that needs to be changed lets talk starknife. 1d4 damage??? really? Either every representaiton of it is way off or it is way underdamaged. Too bad because I love the concept but even as a priest of Desna how can you justify a main weapon that does 1d4 and you throw it away. Perhaps if proficiency also gave you the ability to have it return like a boomerang. That might make it cool enough to overcome the low damage.
On the function of a star knife.
This weapon, while disappointing a bit compared to other martial weapons, has a comparable weapon in the simple category. The Punching Dagger. The advantage gained over the punching dagger is the ability to throw it.
While not great, there is still a versatility over the normal punching daggers. (It is thrown further than a dagger even too)
I'll agree though that there could possibly be a special fighting style feat.
ON this topic we have the Dueling Sword which is nothing more than a glorified longsword unless you take a certain fighter archetype and have to take 2 feats to be able to finesse it.
since even the archtype doesn't gain the prof for free, Its not quite the same as a monk's exotic weapons. (Note how the Bow Monk actually gains the use of bows over normal weapons..)
Could you elaborate some more, without breaking any copyright laws? I'm intrigued.Star Wars Saga's proficiency system is extremely balanced by comparison (you get what you pay for when spending feats on weapon training). It's a d20 product. WotC and Paizo have no excuse.Weapon proficiency is 100% arbitrary in Pathfinder.As it is in any d20 rpg
Download this document. It's a database containing all of Saga's weapon stats for all their books. Some friends and I put it together along with a companion document to help players and GMs get all the game's crunch in one location, rather than having to go through 10+ books (Saga doesn't have a convenient SRD). Son't worry, it is perfectly legal. The project has been supported by Saga's designers for years.
Anyways, click the ranged weapon and melee weapon tabs at the bottom and look at the tables. You can see all the weapons, with their respective weapon groups and stats. Compare them. You will see that almost everything listed has a mechanical niche to fill.
The different weapon groups you can get with a single feat are advanced melee weapons, heavy weapons, pistols, rifles, and simple weapons. Exotic weapons take a single feat for a single exotic weapon.
There may be some inconsistencies (no system is perfect), but it's still worlds better than even Pathfinder (which makes you pay for flavor).
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Actually, butterfly knife requires proficiency OR quick draw to open as a free action. So if you are a character that has quick draw for some other reason, you might as well use a butterfly knife as your spare weapon instead of a dagger.
Except you'd have an attack penalty for non-proficiency.
That's the point of this thread. The 'special' rules for the butterfly knife basically state that, if you've spent a feat on Quick Draw, this amazing knife allows you to use the benefits of the Quick Draw feat.
Gee thanks; you shouldn't have.
You know, that feat that you are already using on all your other daggers, without needing to have it spelled out for you.
But in order to deal the same damage, with the same threat range, with the same crit multiplier, but less effective at throwing, as you (and almost every other person in the world) already is with every other dagger in existence, you must spend a feat on exotic weapon proficiency.
It's like creating a 'Swinging Sword', that has the same damage, threat range and crit multiplier as a longsword, but had the 'special' rule of "If you have the Power Attack feat, or proficiency with this weapon, you may apply the effects of the Power Attack feat to your attack and damage rolls with this weapon", and declaring it to be an Exotic Weapon.
You can buy Quick Draw, and use it with all weapons; or you can spend a feat to quick draw with this one specific weapon and no others.
You can buy Power Attack, and use it with all weapons; or you can spend a feat to Power Attack with this one specific weapon and no others.
In what way is this not a trap?
Actually snorter, its even worse than that
You have to have already drawn the weapon and have it in your hand before you can benefit from quick draw. So with the butterfly knife you have to draw it twice before you can use it.
Benefit: If you are proficient with the butterfly knife (or have the Quick Draw feat) and are holding it in your hand, you may open it as a free action; a nonproficient user must spend a move action to open it. Otherwise, treat this weapon as a dagger.
Though now thinking with my sleep deprived hat on.. Maybe they made it so sucky when your prof with it, so you wouldn't take prof with it.
Maybe it is a weird weapon that if you are not prof with it but are prof with daggers, and just take quick draw, you are better with the weapon than a person who took prof with it.
:/
In otherwords, while you just have dagger prof and quick draw, the weapon is nice and flavorful. You can throw it, gain the +2 to hiding it, and even use it as a light weapon. But you go and take prof with it, and you just screwed it all up and now suck with it. The reason I say this is because of that last line "Treat this weapon as a dagger"
What does that mean? Currently I read it like the dueling sword, where if you arn't prof with it, you treat it like a longsword.
Could you elaborate some more, without breaking any copyright laws? I'm intrigued.Star Wars Saga's proficiency system is extremely balanced by comparison (you get what you pay for when spending feats on weapon training). It's a d20 product. WotC and Paizo have no excuse.Weapon proficiency is 100% arbitrary in Pathfinder.As it is in any d20 rpgDownload this document. It's a database containing all of Saga's weapon stats for all their books. Some friends and I put it together along with a companion document to help players and GMs get all the game's crunch in one location, rather than having to go through 10+ books (Saga doesn't have a convenient SRD). Son't worry, it is perfectly legal. The project has been supported by Saga's designers for years.
Anyways, click the ranged weapon and melee weapon tabs at the bottom and look at the tables. You can see all the weapons, with their respective weapon groups and stats. Compare them. You will see that almost everything listed has a mechanical niche to fill.
The different weapon groups you can get with a single feat are advanced melee weapons, heavy weapons, pistols, rifles, and simple weapons. Exotic weapons take a single feat for a single exotic weapon.
There may be some inconsistencies (no system is perfect), but it's still worlds better than even Pathfinder (which makes you pay for flavor).
So its a more elegant system, for a more civilised age?
Sorry couldnt resist. Thanks for the information!
The quick draw thing with butterfly is "or", so if you're not proficient you can still open it without hurting your finger. I don't actually think it was meant to be a bonus, so much as a poorly worded restriction. (I could be wrong though.)
As for the point of these sort of weapons, *shrug* flavor. If the proficiency required seems to much change it (if you're running) or ask your DM. They're more like guidelines. But it is awful nice when running a game to be able to just hand someone a book when they come asking about having some left field weapon.
Also as an aside about spending a feat for a weapon prof., I've been letting players spend hero points after spending time with a weapon to become proficient instead of waiting for a feat. It hasn't unbalanced things at all.
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Still, I can't think of a single feat that doesn't offer some sort of mechanical advantage.
This feat does absolutely nothing, but you wanted it anyway
Benefit: Taking this feat uses up your feat for this level
Special: You can gain Pointless Feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new feat.
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When the AA came out this was a complaint I made about a few weapons in it. The buttrfly knife was one of them. The designers told me that it was intended that people would make equipment trick feats for it that wouldn't apply to the standard knife, and that they themselves intended to, but couldn't for space. So that's the deal with that.
They also told me that the line Otherwise, treat this weapon as a dagger means that if you have it out and open, you treat it as a simple weapon for the purpose of weilding it. Much in the way a bastard sword can be used two handed as a martial. I think it's terribly worded and that needing two feats means that the second feat better be full of awesome. So that's what we need to do, make an awesome equipment trick feat.
We solved this in my games by going to the following system.
Proficiencies are by groups (See Fighter Weapon Groups).
Exotic Weapon Proficiency is by group (See Fighter Weapon Groups).
Full BAB classes get Simple + 4 groups.
2/3 BAB classes get Simple + 2 groups.
1/2 BAB classes get Simple + 1 group.
Exotic weapon proficiency in a group provides access to all exotic weapons in that group.
If you have a racial 'Treat as Martial', then you can use that weapon if you have the group. For example, an elf with Heavy Blades can use the Elven Curve Blade.
If a human had Weapon Proficiency (Heavy Blades) and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Heavy Blades) then he could use both an Elven Curve Blade, and a Bastard Sword one handed.
Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization work the same way. You pick Weapon Focus (Heavy Blades) and you get the feat for all heavy blades (including exotics if you have exotic proficiency).
This makes all the proficiency feats worth taking, and also means that taking exotic is worth a feat, since you get all the weapons in the group.
On the bright side, Butterfly Knives are fairly subpar IRL, too.
-Kle.
True. There's only two reasons to use them.
1) You want to do flashy knife tricks (which would make them good for dazzling display).
2) You want to carry a knife on you that you are sure won't accidently stab you when you are doing strenuous activity, and you want to conceal it somewhere sensitive, like your inner thigh.
EDIT : I'd probably give a +1 circumstance bonus on Dazzling Display if you use a butterfly knife.