I'm a bit fascinated with the Deck of Many Things, because in my group it's a bit of a "Scares the hell out of me" thing, with cards killing or ruining your character on the spot.
However, I have an idea for an adventure with a Deck of Many Things as the main feature and I'm a little bit unsure when it is the best time to use it.
Clarified: At which party level would you introduce the Deck of Many Things, as an artifact (albeit a minor one) or/and as a plot item, probably allowing the PCs to draw some cards?
Help and hints would be much appreciated and rewarded with my gratitude.
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I'm a bit fascinated with the Deck of Many Things, because in my group it's a bit of a "Scares the hell out of me" thing, with cards killing or ruining your character on the spot.
However, I have an idea for an adventure with a Deck of Many Things as the main feature and I'm a little bit unsure when it is the best time to use it.
Clarified: At which party level would you introduce the Deck of Many Things, as an artifact (albeit a minor one) or/and as a plot item, probably allowing the PCs to draw some cards?
Help and hints would be much appreciated and rewarded with my gratitude.
Actually, I don't think it matters what level you introduce the deck. Its just as harmful and beneficial, if its introduced at Level 1 or Level 20.
Just remember, be prepared to have your game shaken to its foundation. The Deck is not to be taken lightly.
Make sure you check out the Harrower PrC if you like the Deck of Many things - at 10th lvl the Harrower gets to draw two cards and pick which one to use, discarding the other.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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There are two issues here: "When should a GM introduce a minor artifact like the DoMT into his campaign?" and "When shoudl the GM allow the player characters to DRAW FROM said minor artifact?"
A Deck can be a terrific MacGuffin for an adventure at a variety of levels, with everybody from a were-rat den to a vampire High Princess all with their own agenda for the thing, and all actively pursuing the unfortunate PCs.
For the second question, my answer is "when everybody's ready for it." As you say, a DoMT has a chance of killing or crippling the character who dares to invoke it, destroying the party, and ending the campaign. If you're working through an Adventure Path, or otherwise have plans for the future of the campaign, then a DoMT can throw everything off the tracks. If you're willing to accept what fate gives the fool-hardy PCs, the party in general, and the campaign, then go for it.
My advice: the Pathfinder game has all sorts of fiddly-bits mechanics for re-rolling certain rolls or using spells like augury to reduce the risk of handling the Deck. Don't let them work. The thing is a minor artifact for a reason, and anything with that kind of power to re-write reality has the power to foil spoil-sport spells and feats. (EDIT: So, my reply to Aldin would be to watch that kind of mechanism carefully. A 10th-level Harrower is at least 15th level, though, and has spent the majority of her career studying the warp and weft of fate's tapestry. That's perhaps the only case where someone might be able to upset the probability of the Deck.)
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You bring in the Deck when you're at a point where you really don't care or have an issue that the Deck may wind up kicking your campaign far, perhaps irretrievably off track. The other way to bring it in, would be as a MacGuffin, not necessarily something that the players would actually use.
This. Almost quoted my thoughts. You bring in the deck when you don't care what happens to the campaign anymore or when it's almost over anyway.
I'm a bit fascinated with the Deck of Many Things, because in my group it's a bit of a "Scares the hell out of me" thing, with cards killing or ruining your character on the spot.
I've been in two games with a Deck of Many Things, and both times characters were killed or ruined. So I'd vote for "never". ;-)
The DoMT is a potential nuclear bomb going off in your carefully thought out campaign.
I have never introduced the deck in any of my campaigns. I had never realized that until this question came up. I guess that means I must be some sort of control freak....
Time to start thinking about when to introduce it myself. I guess I'll do so right after I get this new campaign worked into the world history/mythology... Let's see, that will probably be in three or four years, real time...
Yep, got it on my list!
Wow, thanks for the quick, helpful and assuring answers. I've always wanted to throw in the deck for a bit of randomness, maybe when the campaign needs a little bit of waking up (can happen sometimes). But I've been a bit intimidated by the best time to use it.
However, I think I use it first as a plot item, maybe allowing the use of it some time later in the game. Not sure yet.
But once again, thanks for your replies.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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If you're looking for a little whimsey in your campaign, might I suggest the wand of wonder?
On the other hand, "our party spent its entire career overcoming level-appropriate challenges and establishing objectives that others had provided for us" doesn't make for a memorable campaign years later.
"My paladin spent her days pursued by a mad hound archon, after my pal the hellknight had his soul ripped out of his body and our buddy the halfling alchemist had a fist-sized chunk of his brain turned to sandstone."
That's a story worth telling.
Keep in mind if you use it as a plot item you WILL have players that want to pull from it. Being forced to not use it as a player may rub some folks poorly.
The lure of power is there and many players like to gamble. They pull well and their character gets some nice toys... they pull badly and they make a new character.
Keep in mind if you use it as a plot item you WILL have players that want to pull from it. Being forced to not use it as a player may rub some folks poorly.
The lure of power is there and many players like to gamble. They pull well and their character gets some nice toys... they pull badly and they make a new character.
Good advice, but I only have one player and I know him and his characters really well so I think I can handle that.
On the other hand, "our party spent its entire career overcoming level-appropriate challenges and establishing objectives that others had provided for us" doesn't make for a memorable campaign years later.
"My paladin spent her days pursued by a mad hound archon, after my pal the hellknight had his soul ripped out of his body and our buddy the halfling alchemist had a fist-sized chunk of his brain turned to sandstone."
That's a story worth telling.
True, I guess if that's the sort of story you want to tell, I don't see why you need the DoMT to do that.
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True, I guess if that's the sort of story you want to tell, I don't see why you need the DoMT to do that.On the other hand, "our party spent its entire career overcoming level-appropriate challenges and establishing objectives that others had provided for us" doesn't make for a memorable campaign years later.
"My paladin spent her days pursued by a mad hound archon, after my pal the hellknight had his soul ripped out of his body and our buddy the halfling alchemist had a fist-sized chunk of his brain turned to sandstone."
That's a story worth telling.
For the randomization, most likely. It's not nearly as interesting a story if you control what happens to whom.
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Good advice, but I only have one player and I know him and his characters really well so I think I can handle that.Keep in mind if you use it as a plot item you WILL have players that want to pull from it. Being forced to not use it as a player may rub some folks poorly.
The lure of power is there and many players like to gamble. They pull well and their character gets some nice toys... they pull badly and they make a new character.
Same here. I only have one player and she's my wife. Once she gets a few more levels under her belt, I may toss in a DoMT just to see what happens. I don't think she'll pull from it though. Too much randomness for her.
I did however run a game back in 2nd Edition days, and the party kept the DoMT around to use for business purposes. They never drew from the deck themselves, but would offer a pull from the deck in exchange for much needed items (mostly magical). It worked for them.
Keep in mind if you use it as a plot item you WILL have players that want to pull from it. Being forced to not use it as a player may rub some folks poorly.
The lure of power is there and many players like to gamble. They pull well and their character gets some nice toys... they pull badly and they make a new character.
I don't recall ever having a character who had access to the deck not pulling a card or cards from the deck. That's how my first wizard got his first wish. But he didn't stop there. He was also banished to the void. It is true that the GM set up an epic quest just for the other party members to rescue him, but he didn't participate in that, and the diversion really knocked the GM off his story line and we never got back to it. He moved to a new city and we never finished the campaign, mostly due to Deck of Many Things impacts. By the time the wizard was rescued, the rest of the party had leveled up a few times and as a result that wizard was more or less retired.
Playing with the deck is playing with fire. It can be great fun, but I would recommend against introducing it if you have an existing campaign that has a clear goal and the party is making steady progress towards it. Make the deck part of the reward for attaining the goal, and at least you will have closure on one story line before introducing random craziness to the story.
You have to know your players. How would they react if the dread wraith vanquished their character? Or would they have an easy time against an incorporeal foe? Do they have the resources to retrieve a character who has been imprisoned or mind-wiped?
I completely agree that the Deck should part of a reward for finishing a quest. That way, if the characters go blooey, at least they have that bit of closure.
I agree that you have to know your players. Will they gracefully accept the bad results as well as the good? If not, don't introduce the deck.
I have introduced the deck in a couple of campaigns I've run, usually around 10th level (this would be 1e and 3.5). In both cases, the deck draws caused a little bit of disruption but nothing that could really derail the campaign. For one thing, as integrated as a PC might be, I never make a PC "the chosen one", destined to save the universe from destruction or other such nonsense that then requires a certain amount of improbable plot immunity. All PCs are ultimately expendable. If we can integrate one, we can integrate a replacement.
One thing I would point out: The Sun's XP award of 50,000 XP is very high. It's the same number as in 1e and was a totally unsuitable amount for a 3rd edition D&D game. Pathfinder has fixed the issue somewhat by greatly extending the XP needed for most levels. But that value is still pretty potent, perhaps too good for low level PCs. Let that be a guide to you to help pick when the game may be ready to introduce the item - 10th level or higher.
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Clarified: At which party level would you introduce the Deck of Many Things, as an artifact (albeit a minor one) or/and as a plot item, probably allowing the PCs to draw some cards?
As with almost everything, the answer I give is "it depends on your players." For a group that loves getting deep into their characters, loves being immersed in the game world, and loves a challenge, I would say a very high level (18+) when they are known by everyone in the well-traveled world and are venturing WAY off the map for challenges. For them it can be a great way to shake the world up and start a completely new challenge.
For powergamers like I strive not to be, the answer is "before they get access to Wish spells." You'll probably find yourself throwing more powerful things than their level suggests anyway. If you're playing an adventure path you probably find them blowing through things an average party would view as an excellent challenge. I definitely suggest in this case if you're not using the Deck itself as a McGuffin, you give them a very limited window to use it. Say a powerful spellcaster who offers to reward them with a chance to draw "before I leave this plane forever when the sun rises." Great way to end a session, let them have real time (though not game time) to consider their choice. Trust me, if you let me carry that deck around for a week or two, I WILL find a way to use it with minimal risk.
Both "I wish I hadn't drawn that card" and "why didn't I draw a card or two?" can be great laments to keep players interested and keenly searching for more decks.
The standard deck of many things, despite being incredibly cool should more or less never be introduced to a campaign. It will either almost certainly kill One or more PCs or it will give them an absurd benefit. Either way your campaign is disrupted and balance is upset.
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By the way, definitely check out Haykali's House of Cards from Classic Treasures Revisited. If you're intending to use the deck as your main storyline, the House gives you a built in side adventure that can take as long as you want it to (although you do lose some of the tension in a standard draw).
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The standard deck of many things, despite being incredibly cool should more or less never be introduced to a campaign. It will either almost certainly kill One or more PCs or it will give them an absurd benefit. Either way your campaign is disrupted and balance is upset.
Which is why I only use it with responsible PC's or in games where there is only one or two PC's.
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I'm a bit fascinated with the Deck of Many Things, because in my group it's a bit of a "Scares the hell out of me" thing, with cards killing or ruining your character on the spot.
However, I have an idea for an adventure with a Deck of Many Things as the main feature and I'm a little bit unsure when it is the best time to use it.
Clarified: At which party level would you introduce the Deck of Many Things, as an artifact (albeit a minor one) or/and as a plot item, probably allowing the PCs to draw some cards?
Help and hints would be much appreciated and rewarded with my gratitude.
I've seen the deck both ruin a campaign and split a gaming group. I would recommend never.
The deck is amusing for new players or for campaigns or groups where getting past level 10 is a lost cause. Also good for groups who love living moment to moment and having great stories to tell. For people who put a lot of effort into characters and like to watch them grow, the deck can muck up their investments and derail the game.
The standard deck of many things, despite being incredibly cool should more or less never be introduced to a campaign. It will either almost certainly kill One or more PCs or it will give them an absurd benefit. Either way your campaign is disrupted and balance is upset.Which is why I only use it with responsible PC's or in games where there is only one or two PC's.
It has nothing to do with responsible, the potential results are insane in their variation. Some of the options are kind cool and not game breaking (like the keep or the 4th level fighter), but many, just swing things way out of wack. + or - 10K xp, is a huge shift if you have more then one PC in your party. You can be imprisoned (as the spell) or have your soul ripped out of your boddy, or chased down forever by a dread wraith. You can get 1d4 wishes, or 50K wonderous item, or you can lose ALL your wealth immediately. Honestly a PC that picks up a deck of many things is by definition irresponsible. So I am pretty sure your statement is somekind of logic loop.
If you want to throw something in, but not have game derailing possibilities, may I make two suggestions?
1) Knucklebone of Fickle Fate (APG) has some randomness, but it's not as game destroying as DoMT.
2) Deck of Transformations (Races of Eberron). It's like a junior scout version of the DoMTs. It can change race, speed, gender, species, stats, but nothing game breaking.
My opinion from the view point of a DM:
NEVER - unless you want your characters and game to go to pot, really fast.
The only time I personally used a deck of many things with one of my characters was in 2E, using a wild mage and a spell that allowed me some control over the randomness of the deck. Aside from that, hI have never touched them.
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It has nothing to do with responsible, the potential results are insane in their variation. Some of the options are kind cool and not game breaking (like the keep or the 4th level fighter), but many, just swing things way out of wack. + or - 10K xp, is a huge shift if you have more then one PC in your party. You can be imprisoned (as the spell) or have your soul ripped out of your boddy, or chased down forever by a dread wraith. You can get 1d4 wishes, or 50K wonderous item, or you can lose ALL your wealth immediately. Honestly a PC that picks up a deck of many things is by definition irresponsible. So I am pretty sure your statement is somekind of logic loop.The standard deck of many things, despite being incredibly cool should more or less never be introduced to a campaign. It will either almost certainly kill One or more PCs or it will give them an absurd benefit. Either way your campaign is disrupted and balance is upset.Which is why I only use it with responsible PC's or in games where there is only one or two PC's.
Not really. Besides, as the GM I can take out the most rewarding and the most troublesome cards, and let them use the deck but not at full capacity. And besides, I did mention earlier that one group a I gave the deck to used it to bargain for things they needed. They were responsible with the deck.
The deck is amusing for new players or for campaigns or groups where getting past level 10 is a lost cause. Also good for groups who love living moment to moment and having great stories to tell. For people who put a lot of effort into characters and like to watch them grow, the deck can muck up their investments and derail the game.+1
Same. We love the deck and any campaign that gets up to the high levels without it is lesser for it. Some great roleplay has come out of the deck. LE Necromancer gets an alignment change to CG and then draws the card that gives the castle/fort and decides to put it near an unprotected small little community...
Because of the boost it can give and the damage it can do its best to do it around level 10. The severe effects (eg: Death and imprisonment) aside your players should have the funds to work around most of the negative cards. And the character wealth/gear boost isn't as huge a leap in character wealth and won't creat a big advantage over others that didn't get that card.
Love the Deck...best item in the game.
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I've seen the deck both ruin a campaign and split a gaming group. I would recommend never.
Oh, that was because you guys drew poorly or too much. :)
Honestly, a deck and set a campaign on a new track, shake things up if events are becoming stale. For instance: Deed to a Keep! Time to go find it and declare my lordship. Oh Noes! Our friends soul is in the abyss. Time to cross time and space to get it back. Emnity with outer planar creature. Hello, campaign nemesis.
I believe in using it at 3 points:
1st level- You just made that character, so if something bad happens, no real big deal. Plus, getting a keep at level 1 gives a player long term goal focus.
5th Level- You're getting into the groove. This can strengthen pc's or break them. Again, unless you are using the slow track for exp, you havent invested too much time in the characters if they are 'lost'. On the other hand at 5th level they probably are now able to start crafting and some of the rewards from the cards could provide 'starting capital' for said crafting or base HQ.
10th Level -By now the PCs should be savvy enough and tough enough to handle whatever bad draws that might come down. And the biggest rewards shouldnt be too big a derailment to your plans (IE Wish).
Still, introduce this only if you think the group can take it. And remember it doesnt disappear like it used to. The gluttons for punishment can keep drawing for long as they are able. Thats why I usually have it in someone elses possesion, and they are nice enough to let the PCs use it once, maybe twice. ;)
You can "pre-load" the DoMT to suit your tastes as well. Write the "instructions card" out in advance so that the cards you are prepared to deal with are all sitting on top and those are the ones that are drawn. Keep it simple. Maybe make a show of "shuffling" it, flashing The Void or something, before resetting it to your specification and proceeding with the next draw.
While this is certainly not RAW for the DoMT, it fits your goal for it best. After all, it is a notoriously fickle item and an artifact to boot. Who is to say for certain precisely how that particular deck will work?
If you use the Harrow Deck of Many Things the same advice would apply.