As it is, two passing references in APs, and one module based around a mythos monster aren't exactly a ton of references considering the entire body of work Paizo has created.
If you thought they'd leave Lovecraft out of the horror themed AP, I'm not really sure you've been paying attention to who the creative director is. Speaking of whom, when will we see a Godzilla inspired module? ;)
But if Lovecraft isn't your thing, just substitute githyanki for any references to the Denizens of Leng in the regular APs and move on. I'm sure after Carrion Crown Paizo will have had there fill for a while.
It always amuses me when someone takes two data points and assumes that the trend will continue forever.
Just because they develop an option doesn't mandate that you use it in your campaign. A ton of options pruned to taste by the GM is better for everyone than a world of goblins and orcs and. . .nothing else -.-I've read some lovecraft, and i'm not a big fan. As such I hope they keep the refrences small and in the background. I'm not a fan of 'sci-fi/space aliens in fantasy games. Didn't want anything to do with Spacejammer... don't like it here.
to Clarify,
1) Unspeakable horror monsters that are completly new and unknown... = Good!
2) Space squid from beyond the stars... = bad.
Well, he's pretty much hosed since I'm his GM, and I happen to love the Lovecraftian atmosphere. He'll put up with it, I'm sure. ;)
Yes, i have the latter, though i found it a bit dissapointing (it was just not tightly focused enough for my taste and some of the lost city generic advice was not anything i hadn't already thought of). I have not bought the former...yet. My entire current Campaign is based on a "rediscovered" city that was essentially a burial mound/prison for an old one.
Yes, i have the latter, though i found it a bit dissapointing (it was just not tightly focused enough for my taste and some of the lost city generic advice was not anything i hadn't already thought of). I have not bought the former...yet. My entire current Campaign is based on a "rediscovered" city that was essentially a burial mound/prison for an old one.
You really should pick up From Shore to Sea. It'd fit on the coast of your home campaign easily. I understand what you mean about lack of focus with Sunken Empires, but StS is a really tight adventure and a great module.
I have heard quite a few complain about the Lovecraftian elements but am I the only one who think Ninjas, Samaria and Gunslingers are even more ridiculous? Horrible fantasy elements IMO.
I was one who thought that Samurai and Ninja weren't ridiculous, they just already existed in Pathfinder as the Fighter, Paladin, and Cavalier and the Rogue. The playtest classes have me interested however, especially the Samurai one.
As for gunslingers and fantasy, I'm afraid that one of my favorite fantasy series is the Dark Tower series by Stephen King, so guns work just fine in my fantasy.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who bought Sunken Empires because I liked the idea of a party exploring an underwater city run by Aboleths and filled with other horrors.
I think that lovecraft themed adventures in pathfinder are fine but there is the fun of shooting something in CoC and having it do pretty much nothing is also a hoot, plus I love all the running and the screaming.
When we started playing CoC I gave the 3 main rules of surviving in the game. 1. Don't get too attached to your characters.
2. Never run out of ammo.
3. Don't be afraid to run.
It has worked pretty good so far for them... Well mostly.
"Lovecraft, baby Lovecraft! Lovecraft, baby Lovecraft!" **pauses for a second, then continues dancing**
Well, he's pretty much hosed since I'm his GM, and I happen to love the Lovecraftian atmosphere. He'll put up with it, I'm sure. ;)
LOL Very true!!! Have dice will travel.
I have heard quite a few complain about the Lovecraftian elements but am I the only one who think Ninjas, Samaria and Gunslingers are even more ridiculous? Horrible fantasy elements IMO.
I have no problems with Ninjas. They're really just assassins with a different name. Samuraii and Gunslingers are pushing the envelop a bit...
Since the gith aren't Open Content, I've been struggling for coming up with a "replacement race" for them. This is a good idea!
But if Lovecraft isn't your thing, just substitute githyanki for any references to the Denizens of Leng in the regular APs and move on. I'm sure after Carrion Crown Paizo will have had there fill for a while.
The problem is that the suppositions of Golarion don't match up well with Lovecraft, IMO. In the books, Cthulhu rises, gets hit in the head with a ship, end of story. Lovecraft was more about the helplessness of humanity as it was about the power of the Old Ones. By the time you take Lovecraft's work (which I enjoy very much) and run it through the system/world blender, you've got something that, apart from the name and appearance, bear little resemblance to the source material. Humans in Lovecraft were basically a universal joke living in the sheltered backwater of the galaxy. That doesn't really translate to heroic fantasy.
SJ
The problem is that the suppositions of Golarion don't match up well with Lovecraft, IMO. In the books, Cthulhu rises, gets hit in the head with a ship, end of story. Lovecraft was more about the helplessness of humanity as it was about the power of the Old Ones. By the time you take Lovecraft's work (which I enjoy very much) and run it through the system/world blender, you've got something that, apart from the name and appearance, bear little resemblance to the source material. Humans in Lovecraft were basically a universal joke living in the sheltered backwater of the galaxy. That doesn't really translate to heroic fantasy.
SJ
I disagree, it actually it does translate to heroic fantasy.
In many of his stories there are references to ancient cultures and powers that existed before the modern age. And those great ancient cultures were not as shy or as vulnerable as modern man with all his phobias. They had ancient wizards who both worshipped and fought the Great Old Ones, I can imagine more than a few non-caster (think Conan) types who would have done much to sack and destroy temples of those dark gods.
And guess what you get to play in Pathfinder? It isn't a frail historian with deep-rooted childhood traumas with a skeptical mind. You get to play the wizard who can send back the monster or the warrior with the blade that was designed and forged to cut through its servants and end its hold on the land. To send it back the horror and taint one way or another.
In CoC (the game) the characters are using tools, spells and weapons all from another age, an age when man and other races went toe-to-tentacle with the Great Old Ones. In CoC you are just picking up the pieces of lost magic just to compete.
|
Cthulhutech was awesome! It deserved more attention than it got.I know, it's the best thing ever. I weep tears of joy as well.I don't really think Lovecraft has a place in a setting that isn't Earth circa 1900-2000. But that's just me.Have you seen Cuthullutech? /cries.
As a librarian I'm proud to say that we have *four* copies of the core rulebook in our RPG collection. :)
Cthulhu and the Great Old Ones aren't just kaiju's. They aren't just big monsters with lots of power. The very reality that allows weapons and spells and whatever isn't worth Cthulhu's snot. The most insane god from any D&D world is like Mary Poppins compared to the reality that the Great Old Ones accept everyday. Even the people who have "succeeded" in Lovecraft are either dead or have brains of mush; especially in the later works that were much less pulpy in tone.
If you like Cthulhu vs. Robotech that's great; there's nothing wrong with that. But it isn't Lovecraft. You've just turned Cthulhu into Space Godzilla.
My favorite game quote about Cthulhu came from GURPS:
Question: What's the difference between a 200 pt. superhero and a 2000 pt one?
Answer: Nothing. They're both equally tasty to Cthulhu.
SJ
I don't think it's possible for me to be 'Lovecrafted out'.
Dr. Doom is an avatar of Nyarlathotep.
|
The most insane god from any D&D world is like Mary Poppins compared to the reality that the Great Old Ones accept everyday.
I'd have to disagree here. The Outer Gods fit that description. But the Great Old Ones are simply very powerful aliens, more along the lines of powerful demon lords or archdevils than actual gods.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I replaced all references to Lovecraft and the Great Old Ones with references to Doctor Doom. My game, my rules.
Dr. Doom is an avatar of Nyarlathotep.
So Dr. Doom is an avatar of Nyarlathotep. Nyarlathotep is replaced with Dr. Doom, who is, as we know, an avatar of Nyarlathotep.
Dr. Doom is an avatar of Dr. Doom who is an avatar of Dr. Doom who is an avatar of Dr. Doom who is...
Creative Director
|
The most insane god from any D&D world is like Mary Poppins compared to the reality that the Great Old Ones accept everyday.I'd have to disagree here. The Outer Gods fit that description. But the Great Old Ones are simply very powerful aliens, more along the lines of powerful demon lords or archdevils than actual gods.
True, but in Pathfinder, be they powerful aliens or not, they can still grant spells to clerics. So the Great Old Ones are technically demigods in Pathfinder.
(The method by which you gain the ability to grant spells, by the way, is probably something that even post-20th level characters will gain the ability to do as well. Not sure about the mechanics or benefits yet, of course...)
|
|
True, but in Pathfinder, be they powerful aliens or not, they can still grant spells to clerics. So the Great Old Ones are technically demigods in Pathfinder.The most insane god from any D&D world is like Mary Poppins compared to the reality that the Great Old Ones accept everyday.I'd have to disagree here. The Outer Gods fit that description. But the Great Old Ones are simply very powerful aliens, more along the lines of powerful demon lords or archdevils than actual gods.
Which lines up perfectly well with what I stated, since demon lords and arch devils can also grant spells to clerics.
(The method by which you gain the ability to grant spells, by the way, is probably something that even post-20th level characters will gain the ability to do as well. Not sure about the mechanics or benefits yet, of course...)
:) Sorry, but I've got to say I think that's the worst idea I've seen anyone officially with Paizo put forward to date. Yuck.
[(The method by which you gain the ability to grant spells, by the way, is probably something that even post-20th level characters will gain the ability to do as well. Not sure about the mechanics or benefits yet, of course...)
I haven't considered a high level campaign. Although, assuming my current crop of pathfinder players manages to survive the end of the Kingmaker AP they'll be within reasonable striking distance of level 20. So it's at least possible to run a high level game.
hmm.
|
Creative Director
|
(The method by which you gain the ability to grant spells, by the way, is probably something that even post-20th level characters will gain the ability to do as well. Not sure about the mechanics or benefits yet, of course...):) Sorry, but I've got to say I think that's the worst idea I've seen anyone officially with Paizo put forward to date. Yuck.
It's also a half-formed idea for a book that hasn't started being designed yet and may NEVER be designed. AKA: There's a lot more work to go into the thought.
But the simple fact is that part of post 20th-level play WILL involve discussing how a PC can become a god, and that includes "how does a PC gain the ability to grant spells to clerics" and "what does that ability give the PC in question?" One of the biggest post-20th-level adventure hooks we have in Golarion is the Test of the Starstone, after all. Ignoring the Starstone and its ramifications is simply not an option. It certainly IS an additional complication.
But the simple fact is that part of post 20th-level play WILL involve discussing how a PC can become a god, and that includes "how does a PC gain the ability to grant spells to clerics" and "what does that ability give the PC in question?" One of the biggest post-20th-level adventure hooks we have in Golarion is the Test of the Starstone, after all. Ignoring the Starstone and its ramifications is simply not an option. It certainly IS an additional complication.
Y'know...I wondered about that whole 'test of the starstone' thing. I'm glad that you plan on addressing the possiblity of player characters ascending to godhood, remote though it might be...
I liked how the old Savage Tide adventure path wrapped up - someone who killed Demogorgon could take his title and become Prince of Demons. A campaign along those lines could be a great way to end a long running game.
But the simple fact is that part of post 20th-level play WILL involve discussing how a PC can become a god, and that includes "how does a PC gain the ability to grant spells to clerics" and "what does that ability give the PC in question?" One of the biggest post-20th-level adventure hooks we have in Golarion is the Test of the Starstone, after all. Ignoring the Starstone and its ramifications is simply not an option. It certainly IS an additional complication.Y'know...I wondered about that whole 'test of the starstone' thing. I'm glad that you plan on addressing the possiblity of player characters ascending to godhood, remote though it might be...
I liked how the old Savage Tide adventure path wrapped up - someone who killed Demogorgon could take his title and become Prince of Demons. A campaign along those lines could be a great way to end a long running game.
Not too sound like a butt kisser james, I was always curious about the test of the star stone, and one more question were the current gods player characters at one time?
|
Creative Director
|
Not too sound like a butt kisser james, I was always curious about the test of the star stone, and one more question were the current gods player characters at one time?But the simple fact is that part of post 20th-level play WILL involve discussing how a PC can become a god, and that includes "how does a PC gain the ability to grant spells to clerics" and "what does that ability give the PC in question?" One of the biggest post-20th-level adventure hooks we have in Golarion is the Test of the Starstone, after all. Ignoring the Starstone and its ramifications is simply not an option. It certainly IS an additional complication.Y'know...I wondered about that whole 'test of the starstone' thing. I'm glad that you plan on addressing the possiblity of player characters ascending to godhood, remote though it might be...
I liked how the old Savage Tide adventure path wrapped up - someone who killed Demogorgon could take his title and become Prince of Demons. A campaign along those lines could be a great way to end a long running game.
Nope; all the gods who ascended from the Starstone were either invented for Golarion (in the case of Iomedae and Cayden Caliean) or imported from my homebrew setting (in the case of Norgorber). None of them started life as a PC.
I was thinking of adding in the Test of the Starstone to my current campaign, but I wouldn't think of it as a capstone "level 20" adventure. I mean, I would assume that testing someone for potential godhood is about more than personal power, but more tests of morality, character, conviction, dilemmas and challenging their own beliefs. If Legacy of Fire was able to have a whole chapter inside a demiplane map, it could work along the same lines. The party could be looking for the Starstone on its own, or racing to stop the bad guys from taking advantage of it. Once undertaking the test, who knows what kind of maddening things the group may be subjected to?
May not have to be a 20th level adventure, but certainly a grueling one. The kind of thing where only someone deserving of godhood could succeed (even if many of his allies/foes do not).
But the simple fact is that part of post 20th-level play WILL involve discussing how a PC can become a god, and that includes "how does a PC gain the ability to grant spells to clerics"
I would imagine it could probably start with something like Imbue with Spell Ability.
|
I really like the Cthulu mythos. I really like the themes, the writing style, the horror, etc. I like Lovecraftian themes in my rpgs. But after the Denizens of Leng in Rise of the Runelords, Legacy of Fire, Carrion Hill the module, and now Carrion Hill in Carrion Crown, I feel like the theme has been over played. Does anyone else feel like this? What other themes would you like to see? Have I gone mad?
I did write Swarm Masters set in Sandpoint...Where overnight a Giant Ball of web settles over the community and anchors down...and they start harvesting folks from their beds. Dopplegangers and Interdimensional Super-intelligent Spiders. I suppose they could turn that into an Adventure.
What seems to be lacking though in the understanding of most about Lovecraft is that all the monsters are an illusion. In The Mountains of madness when the Doctor is radioing back that they found 'ancient aliens' buried for all time in a cave, and that he is just making the first disection of their corpses now...he was loony and they were cutting open their friends...likewise you lack an understanding that when the Heroes arrive to investigate - and 'find' an ancient city just over the way with a giant creature from the pit, they too are going nuts.
If I told you that at Superposition all life is the same life - so its possible for many to share a single moment of insanity (if that insane moment is at superposition)...would you understand why they all went the same nuts?
Thanks james was always curious, only because in one of my older campaign worlds I did that with some of my characters I played in high school 2nd edition D&D.
|
|
I really don't get why people complain so much about xyz element in a setting or game.
1. No one is going to walk in on your game session and force you at foam-LARP-sword-point to use Ninjas or Shoggoths in your game. Feel free to excise guns and alchemy and whatever elements don't fit with your narrow idea of medieval heroic fantasy from the games you run. I don't like Eberron's Draconic Prophecy or the Lords of Dust, so instead the eberron game I ran was full of Emerald Claw agents, Murder Mysteries in sharn, Warforged calling people "meatbag," the Dreaming Dark, and Cannith ruins in the mournland.
2. You may not like it, but other people do. I'm not personally a fan of Ninjas or Samurai (apart from Ronin). I'm going to be honest: I don't much like japanese culture. quite the reverse; some elements of it deeply irk me, and the people who idolize it irk me more. some bits of American culture also irk me, mind you. But just because I've had some bad experiences with Weaboo roomates doesn't mean that I'm complaining that Pathfinder has an asialand or rules for samurai and ninjas. I'm fine with it. Maybe one of these days I'll pull out my Ronin character idea and have fun giving the finger to authoritarianism.
3. Lovecraft is everywhere. Conan, Neil Gaiman, Hellboy, tons of other media use lovecraftian elements. He's in D&D from the get-go; mind flayers and aboleths. He creeps in everywhere. If anything, Paizo is doing what it always does: taking something old and making it fresh again. In this case, they're not pussy-footing around with Captain Erzatzes like everyone else does, they're using the original mythos elements without dilution or much alteration. That's pretty fresh, compared to the usual practice.
Frankly, in Pathfinder, I don't like Absalom very much. I find it stylistically boring compared to places like Cheliax, Ustalav, Kaer Maga, and whatnot. I also don't care much for the Startstone, Taldor, Galt, or the marginalized roles of Dwarves in the setting. Sometimes it seems they could just be removed whole-cloth, and it wouldn't affect very much. I would have rather Paizo try to do something a little interesting with Dwarves, like they did with gnomes or elves. even halflings got a little thought put into them. I'm also not 100% on the Planetary Romance or vintage Raygun Gothic elements of the Sci-Fi section of the setting; I much prefer hard sci-fi (with a littel lovecraft mixed in) in my Fantasy in SPAAACCEEE mashups.
But I don't mind, because I trust paizo to do a decent job with even those elements I don't like, maybe even enough to make me like them despite myself.
I LIKE numeria's super-tech. I LIKE the solar system. I LIKE explicit Mythos elements. I LIKE the guns.
+1 to Rusty's number 3.
|
I am not a big fan of Love Craft. I admittedly I think I have read only two of his stories. One involved some sort of expedition to the Anartic and I seem to remember carnivorous penguins. Perhaps I’m mixing things up. I don’t know.
I remember another story that was set the area in which I live, Townsend and Brattleboro in South Eastern Vermont. I remember the story was about a farmer who was corresponding with some sort of university professor I think, and there was some sort of alien worshiping cult out to get him. As the story progressed they got him. I also remember some mention of alien corpses being washed down streams and rivers.
I will admit I did enjoy reading the author’s descriptions of Townsend, the West River, Black Mountain, and Brattleboro etc. I think H.P Love Craft lived in this area for a while as well. However the Townsend, West River, Black Mountain, and Brattleboro of his imagination were understandably much different from the Townsend, West River Black Mountain and Brattleboro of my own imagination and experience with these places as a landscape photographer. Neither the West River nor Black Mountain hold any forboding for me. Granted HP Love Craft is writing horror stories, and I am trying to do something entirely different with my photographs which is to evoke a sence of the beauty of these mish shrouded rivers and mountains.
I understand there is lots of influence from HP Lovecraft, in D&D and now Pathfinder. I don’t mind that influence.
I do like the “Kitchen Sink” nature of Golaron. I like that there are lots of elements in it and you can pick and choose what you want in your games. While I don’t particularly like guns, nor would I want the “sci fi” tec from Numeria in my games, I would prefer them to be there, because I recognize, somebody does like these things and there are some people who think these elements are absolutely “awesome”. I do recognize that the game needs to appeal to more people then just me.
While I don’t mind the influence, I would prefer the setting not become over run by HP Love craft stuff. Perhaps it could be the subject for a guide-book. Perhaps a “how to put more Love Craft in your Pathfinder.”
Just my two cents.
|
On Lovecraft: "Meh. It's okay."
On why people complain when stuff gets added that they don't like: Often times, it's because they game in a group. And when one person really likes something that just got added to the game, but everyone else hates it (or vice versa), it creates group tension. Also, some gamers will feel entitled to or expect to see the parts of the game that they like, even if they know that someone else in the group doesn't like it because it's written in a book.
|
Creative Director
|
What I see Paizo as doing, isn't so much Lovecraftian as much as it is Lumley-ian. Brian Lumley wrote an extensive number of Lovecraft/psuedo-Lovecraft stories/pastiches, the differences according to Brian Lumley: "My guys fight back. Also, they like to have a laugh along the way." (Further reading: Primal Lands, Dreamlands, and Titus Crow stories.)
Yes, they may all have the same names, but Lovecraft and Lumley are night and day in presentation.
I'd rather think of us as being more Robert E Howard or Clark Ashton Smith like in our "mythos monsters in fantasy settings." Of course, with stories like "The Dunwich Horror" or even "The Call of Cthulhu," even Lovecraft wrote stories where humans win against the Great Old Ones now and then, so saying every Lovecraft story is about humans losing or going mad at the end.
|
|
Hey, don't feel bad. I haven't read much Lovecraft, and the bits I read really didn't impress me.
Now Robert W. Chambers' The King in Yellow, that was good. I'm also a huge fan of Jorge Luis Borges, who was never a Mythos writer, but he did tackle the problems of perception and infinity. Or Kafka. Huxley. Orwell.
And what do I find cooler? The chance of being edited out of the next update of the universe, as a clerical error. Or perhaps
I'm all for more Lovecraftian selections in the beastiary.
Since the AD&D days there have always been Lovecraft inspired monsters... Gricks, Black Pudding, Otyugs, Ghouls, Carrion Crawlers and of course the now unameable Beholders and Mind Flayers.
More lovecraftian elements just give more spice to the game.
I would like to see something made like the thing in "The Color out of Space".
Ia Ia More Lovecraft F'tghn F'tghn.
|
|
For those who have never read Lovecraft you should give it a try.Not all of his stuff is Cthulhu related and honestly my favorites by him are not Cthulhu related.You can find his stuff free to read all over in the internet. Here is one site.
.
..
...
Favorites non Cthulhu related
The Rats in the Walls
Pickman's Model
The Unnameable
He
The Music of Erich Zann
Then the Cthulhu stuff
Call of Cthulhu
Dagon
The Shadow over Innsmouth
At the Mountain of Madness (maybe his best work IMO)
It was all the Yogtalk over here that got me to read Lovecraft a few years back in the first place. I second Billkilla's recommendation, and am glad to see Jacobs' make the above point again.
I don't know there is fun seeing your players squirm in there chairs but I understand mixing genres, But I am a big lover of H.P. I still think he is still one of the fathers of modern horror.
Have not yet touched Carrion Crown, but I am well pleased with the treatment of Lovecraft-related materials in PF and Golarion. It can be played up or down as preferred, and never do I feel that someone has shoehorned in gaslight and atavism just to emulate the CoC rpg.
It is worth noting that Lovecraft, as an author, cheated a bit in his writing by employing unreliable, unstable and nervous narrators. When Howard handles the same subject matter, often Conan is perplexed and worried by the horrors out there but not driven to the brink by insane revelations. Bearing this in mind saves a lot of effort in discussing the tone of Lovecraft-themed stories and chronicles; when my group wants that 'unstable' feeling they know now they have to make characters with triggers and weaknesses, people with real potential to break down. It's just as valid to do a story that involves the Mythos <i>and</i> PCs more inclined to grab their axes and torches without a second thought, but it won't have the same tone as one of HP Lovecraft's stories. [/QUOTE
+1