How do you deal with Paladins when you're a caster wanting to cast spells with the [Evil] discriptor?
Could you convince them, for example, that you can create Zombies/Skeletons of creatures without souls?
Could you convince them, for example, that you can create Zombies/Skeletons of creatures without souls?
could you convince them of that? unlikely.
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Of course you can. But you shouldn't. Making undead is a pretty heinous thing to do, and I don't think paladins should tolerate it. Not even for a friend.
Of course, perhaps your DM feels differently. This is definitely an area where I'd talk to the DM and the other player, because there's nothing specific in the rules against it.
How do you deal with Paladins when you're a caster wanting to cast spells with the [Evil] discriptor?
Could you convince them, for example, that you can create Zombies/Skeletons of creatures without souls?
My solution when a player somewhat wanted to play a paladin was to buy him a six pack and suggest he not.
That may not apply to your situation though, especially if you only have Miller around where you live.
However, there was a PrC in 3.5 called Malconvoker, which summoned evil to fight evil. They weren't evil themselves, just neutrally ambiguous. Perhaps you could play up that angle. Or alternatively, Slay Living.
"Foul necromancer! Hellspawn! I shall not let your abomination offend common decency! Feel the swift justice of Heaven! Smite Evil!"
"Foul necromancer! Hellspawn! I shall not let your abomination offend common decency! Feel the swift justice of Heaven! Smite Evil!"
This is exactly what I want to avoid :-P
Luckily the Paladin has INT as a dump stat, but I'm looking at the long term using [Evil] spells. Perhaps if he doesn't spellcraft it I can get away with them?
But I'm sure he'll figure it out after the first it I try to cast Animate Dead...
Kill the paladin and go on about your business?
How do you deal with Paladins when you're a caster wanting to cast spells with the [Evil] discriptor?
Turn him into a newt for his impudence.
Are you deadset (groan) on playing a necromancer? Sounds like your character is going to cause a party schism.
what's the rest of the party?
Undead are considered evil in pathfinder...it does not mesh well with paladins...either hide it from him, or ask him not to play a paladin...
Was looking at the new spell in Ultimate Magic called Restore Corpse...wondering if I could disguise them as Cohorts...
Are you deadset (groan) on playing a necromancer? Sounds like your character is going to cause a party schism.
No, but I'd like to have the option for 'disposable' minions.
Tell the paladin that all of your undead are powered by volunteer spirits. Convince him/ her that you used speak with dead to send out spirit-recruiting form, and that they were all informed of the... 'sub optimal' state of the bodies they would be inhabiting and signed an ethereal waiver stating that they don't mind.
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Are you deadset (groan) on playing a necromancer? Sounds like your character is going to cause a party schism.No, but I'd like to have the option for 'disposable' minions.
As a lark, one of our players played a "secret" good necromancer. The concept was he honestly believed that the undead got a bad rap, and believed that if he could show that some undead could be used to do good, people would come around.
He would dress up the various undead he created in elaborate disguises, give them names and say they were his co-horts.
Fun part was when he had to convince the party clerics not to heal them.
It was silly, but the player really invested time and effort into making the concept work.
Int as a dump stat?
"Look out, our foe's foul undead have escaped his control! They're running wild and attacking him!"
Are you deadset (groan) on playing a necromancer? Sounds like your character is going to cause a party schism.No, but I'd like to have the option for 'disposable' minions.
Use Summons instead?
Why is it that you have to find a way to trick the Paladin? Is it that you want to ruin his fun? There's enough issues with playing Paladin without having your supposed friends trying to stab you in the back, stab you in the eyes, trying to make you play a character with TSTL syndrome (Also known as Too Stupid To Live Syndrome, because if you're letting a team mate raise dead, you are too stupid to live if you're a Paladin), and generally giving you ten times the grief you get from just being a paladin.
Here's a suggestion. Play something else. Or ask the player if they are willing to stop playing a Paladin. But if you are both dead set on playing polar opposites, do both of yourselves a favor and find a new game. Because this sort of BS is just going to make your gaming group explode. Especially since if you're summoning undead, the Paladin's Smite is likely going to smash you into little bits if it comes to a fight. Wizards are generally very squishy around Paladin's with active smites. Either way, it won't end well.
Use Summons instead?Are you deadset (groan) on playing a necromancer? Sounds like your character is going to cause a party schism.No, but I'd like to have the option for 'disposable' minions.
Summons are 1/rnd per level vs. indefinitely controlled undead limited by your HD.
Summons are 1/rnd per level vs. indefinitely controlled undead limited by your HD.Use Summons instead?Are you deadset (groan) on playing a necromancer? Sounds like your character is going to cause a party schism.No, but I'd like to have the option for 'disposable' minions.
I'm aware of the difference. it doesn't mean it's not an option however. In addition, the binding spells are not 1 rounders.
Without some kind of DM intervetion/houserule, paladins and undead users in teh same group are typically a no-go. You and the other player shoudl have a chat, and hash out your character ideas. One of you may have to change concept for this game, but i would suggest that whoever does, support the other player's concept in the next one.
Are you deadset (groan) on playing a necromancer? Sounds like your character is going to cause a party schism.No, but I'd like to have the option for 'disposable' minions.
So... a broodmaster summoner?
Summons are 1/rnd per level vs. indefinitely controlled undead limited by your HD.Use Summons instead?Are you deadset (groan) on playing a necromancer? Sounds like your character is going to cause a party schism.No, but I'd like to have the option for 'disposable' minions.
And by the time you have access to animate dead, the summoned monsters will also be worlds more more powerful than skeletons and zombies. Summon monster spells got some much needed love in PFRPG.
I find playing with people I consider friends and using a bit of common sense eliminates a lot of this silliness. If any of us want to play a class that may come with "baggage", we talk about it beforehand and make it work. If we have a Paladin in our group, then we've already built character concepts that compliment that character at least alignment wise.
A smart GM should squash the snowflake syndrome in short order.
Int as a dump stat?
"Look out, our foe's foul undead have escaped his control! They're running wild and attacking him!"
Alas, that'd be a Bluff vs Sense Motive, which is of course WIS based.
On the other hand, if the Paladin hasn't put a lot of ranks in Knowledge: Religion he might not ever ID the creatures as Undead in the first place. :D
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"Look, Sir Osric! An evildoer outside!"
"WHAT?!"
[finds no evildoer]
"Deceivers! this ends no-"
"He's over there!"
on a serious note:
What about if you used Undead Anatomy X from UM? Would the Paladin attack you, then?
Actually, the problem you have isn't necessarily with the fact that they are undead. Remember that a Paladin really has no way to differentiate between whether the pile of bones that is moving is the result of an Animate Dead spell or an Animate Object spell. So if that were a Paladin's issue it would be a simple bluff to say that you are simply animating the bones and not the actually creature itself.
They immediately show as evil if the paladin uses detect on them.
"these aren't undead, just animated objects!"
/detect.
*ping*
"i don't think so."
Sounds like someoens got to give up their concept.
That being said a necromancer causes a thousand times more issues than a paladin to group dynamics. If a paladin has any common sense he's willing to pass a blind eye to the more neutral acts of the group. It's really freaking difficult to hide your army of the damned, more trouble than it's worth outside of an evil group.
And it's not jsut the paladin, it's basically every good aligned character and civiloization ever.
My current group is discussing ways of outright murdering the groups necromancer before he brings the entire empire down on them for being near him.
The fact that he paraded his pair of fast zombie Remorhazes in front of an entire formation of paladins before a major battle essentially means every two bit inquisitor and shining knight in the world is coming for his head.
And doing the animate objects thing? Doesn't work brah. Detect evil up in this mofo.
Honestly jsut play a summoner maybe a Broodbonded variant from UM if you want to go fo the whole horde thing. They even give an option for undead appearance. That way you both get what you mostly want.
They immediately show as evil if the paladin uses detect on them.
"these aren't undead, just animated objects!"
/detect.
*ping*"i don't think so."
Oops. Ok, so the necromancer needs to invest in some lead-lined robes for his zombies then. :P
Edit: In all seriousness though, this is something that needs to be discussed GM-to-player-to-player. One or both players need to make compromises to their concept to accept the other's.
Oops. Ok, so the necromancer needs to invest in some lead-lined robes for his zombies then. :PThey immediately show as evil if the paladin uses detect on them.
"these aren't undead, just animated objects!"
/detect.
*ping*"i don't think so."
stop persecuting the heritage of my not-undead-simply-animate-objects, you ethnocentric b*tch?
I super-second MDT's post. +42 to him.
What do you intend to play? A wizard? You can play a wizard with minions (all kinds - summons, planar allies, gate) without using undead. Meanwhile, you're forcing someone to play an entirely new class. Drop the concept, stop trying to "rules lawyer" your way out of violating the Paladin code (playing a Paladin is more than words on a paper, anyway - it's about the spirit, not the details), and be a "summoning wizard" - or even Druid for spontaneous casting - and let him have his fun.
I play a paladin, if you haven't guessed. We have a Bard in our group who commits bad acts (like stealing and casting evil spell) against clearly good characters - and he complains when I don't simply overlook it. Seriously, I'm considering leaving the group because of this one person alone and forming a new one closer to home (it's a 30 minute drive to where we play anyway). A paladin is simply a "fighter who bugs me with morals" in his eyes, and vehemently refuses to give me any leeway. It's incredibly annoying.
Really, all this trouble with Paladins people have. Stop playing on the edge of evil and do things a nice proper way - you can still be really effective this way. To deny someone an entire class is incredibly selfish.
Really, all this trouble with Paladins people have. Stop playing on the edge of evil and do things a nice proper way - you can still be really effective this way. To deny someone an entire class is incredibly selfish.
While I agree for the most part with the rest of your post, I'd like to point out that Paladins force the entire party to align themselves to the party, possibly throwing out any character concept the other members had.
While I agree for the most part with the rest of your post, I'd like to point out that Paladins force the entire party to align themselves to the party, possibly throwing out any character concept the other members had.Really, all this trouble with Paladins people have. Stop playing on the edge of evil and do things a nice proper way - you can still be really effective this way. To deny someone an entire class is incredibly selfish.
Sometimes, when a Paladin pushes too far, they can become overbearing to the rest of the party. The best way you could handle this (in my eyes) is something like...
"These are the things I preach and believe in (good and law), these are the things I will vehemently and violently oppose (evil and extreme chaos), and these are the things I discourage, but won't actively oppose if it's my friends (neutral and light chaos)."
That's kinda how I go. My party does some neutral stuff and as long as it's not skirting the line, I'll go along with it if it sounds like a good idea. I actually accept a fair bit of Chaos from party members - only the most extreme of acts will I generally oppose. Evil (including channeling negative energy, casting evil spells, willingly working with evil when it can be helped), I almost always oppose - as most Paladins should, in my opinion.
Just tell the Paladin player that he has the following choices.
1. Play a character not shackled to a Good alignment.
2. Look forward to lots of party drama where he's probably a one man minority.
3. Look forward to playing a fighter without training or bonus feats.
Tell the wizard he has the following choices.
1. Play a wizard that isn't evil in everything but alignment.
2. Look forward to working with the group in a co-operative game.
3. Look forward to being just as effective as you would have been, if not more so.
Well, before taking sides, is this a new game where everyone have their concepts on the table or is this someone bringing a certain concept into an existing game? Is this online or face to face? How tight is the group?
If the Paladin was "new" to the group and the group had a certain slant, then the GM should step in and head this issue off at the pass, that's just the best way of handling these sorts of things. The same would also true the other way around if the necromancer-type caster was new to the group and the group was good/neutral leaning.
How do you deal with Paladins when you're a caster wanting to cast spells with the [Evil] discriptor?
Could you convince them, for example, that you can create Zombies/Skeletons of creatures without souls?
Fact: Skeletons and zombies are mindless.
Fact: Negative energy is not evil.Fact: Animate dead does not affect souls. It does not rip souls from heaven or hell to animate the dead.
Fact: You can use flesh to stone on a statue, resulting in a Corpse. You can then cast animate dead on that corpse, making an undead that was once stone.
Fact: Animate Dead has the Evil descriptor.
The Paladin code bars her from working with evil associates for long, or someone who constantly is offending her code. If the caster is Good (in the case of wizards or sorcerers, who have no restrictions on casting the spell), or Neutral (such as gray clerics), the Paladin may find it offensive, but perhaps tolerable.
Honestly, if the Paladin makes a fuss about it, you may not be able to convince them if they refuse to listen. However, it's absolutely impossible to argue that undead are innately evil without resorting to "well just because they are", which in a real situation has no weight.
Honestly, I'd let the Paladin and the rest of the group know that it's the Paladin being unreasonable. The Paladin has no right to say what the rest of the party does. Request, sure, but if the Necromancer in the party pops some undead zombies up, and the Paladin complains, he's free to leave. It's not you that is causing the problem, but the Paladin and his rigidness. The Paladin is the one who is creating the problem (notice the Necromancer likely doesn't have a class feature telling him he can't be friends with the Paladin), so either he can get over it, or he can get lost.
It's as simple as that.
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In my group we have a paladin and a necromancer. Yes the paladin turns a blind eye, and yes the necromancer drives everyone crazy. And yes we have conflicts, but we have been playing together for a number of years and we make it work. As the GM, I try hard to make it fun for everyone, and they all continue to show up for my games every month.
As a side note, we have lots of food and drink at our games, so its all good...
How do you deal with Paladins when you're a caster wanting to cast spells with the [Evil] discriptor?
Could you convince them, for example, that you can create Zombies/Skeletons of creatures without souls?
Fact: Skeletons and zombies are mindless.
Fact: Negative energy is not evil.
Fact: Animate dead does not affect souls. It does not rip souls from heaven or hell to animate the dead.
Fact: You can use flesh to stone on a statue, resulting in a Corpse. You can then cast animate dead on that corpse, making an undead that was once stone.
Fact: Animate Dead has the Evil descriptor.The Paladin code bars her from working with evil associates for long, or someone who constantly is offending her code. If the caster is Good (in the case of wizards or sorcerers, who have no restrictions on casting the spell), or Neutral (such as gray clerics), the Paladin may find it offensive, but perhaps tolerable.
Honestly, if the Paladin makes a fuss about it, you may not be able to convince them if they refuse to listen. However, it's absolutely impossible to argue that undead are innately evil without resorting to "well just because they are", which in a real situation has no weight.
Honestly, I'd let the Paladin and the rest of the group know that it's the Paladin being unreasonable. The Paladin has no right to say what the rest of the party does. Request, sure, but if the Necromancer in the party pops some undead zombies up, and the Paladin complains, he's free to leave. It's not you that is causing the problem, but the Paladin and his rigidness. The Paladin is the one who is creating the problem (notice the Necromancer likely doesn't have a class feature telling him he can't be friends with the Paladin), so either he can get over it, or he can get lost.
It's as simple as that.
Skeletons and Zombies are by default malevolent and evil. It was 3.x where they were mindless/neutral. Also, if someone was to walk up and tell me to "get over it or get lost" , i and my group would ask them to do the walking. Hostile Confrontationalism doesn't help anyone.
so who said something about one player denying another players creativity and the ability to play a class is extremely selfish?
sounds like you are denying other players the opportunity to play some choice character types and deadlocking the party into a moral stance...
at least the necromancer isnt a bill o reilly in plate mail
There are lines in the sand that must be drawn by a GM.
Notice under alignments it mentions "Good and neutral alignments are for PCs. Evil alignments are for NPCs and monsters". Clearly the game is designed for the PCs to be either good or evil, and intends for them to do more good acts than evil acts, if any evil acts at all.
A campaign can be run with evil characters in mind (I'm running one). It's a very different experience from normal, and somewhat difficult to run - it's easy for them to run off on a random tangent for some unexpected looting and killing.
This doesn't sound like a group that tolerates evil, so a Paladin is a viable (and very fun) choice for some players (myself included). Also notice there are no classes that PCs have access to that are always evil - but there are who are good.
It also doesn't sound like the OP's concept is based around this ability of re-animating the dead, other than having bodyguards. Therefore, it seems far simpler to simply continue his class (even continuing the summoning aspect), and changing it to fit a more neutral alignment that the Paladin, at that point, should have no issue with - if he does, he's overstretching.
As I also stated, Paladins should tolerate neutral acts as long as they are not "pushing the envelope" of evil.
And I still believe my original point stands: One player is losing a few spells and has to slightly change a concept. One player has to change an entire class and possibly alignment. It is selfish for the OP to say "Don't play a Paladin, be a LN Fighter so I can use this spell".
When players want to act evil (like reanimating undead), play chaotic (like steal from people who don't deserve it), and basically be evil in everything but alignment, they are overstretching their own bounds for how D&D is typically played.
How do you deal with Paladins when you're a caster wanting to cast spells with the [Evil] discriptor?
Could you convince them, for example, that you can create Zombies/Skeletons of creatures without souls?
Fact: Skeletons and zombies are mindless.
Fact: Negative energy is not evil.
Fact: Animate dead does not affect souls. It does not rip souls from heaven or hell to animate the dead.
Fact: You can use flesh to stone on a statue, resulting in a Corpse. You can then cast animate dead on that corpse, making an undead that was once stone.
Fact: Animate Dead has the Evil descriptor.The Paladin code bars her from working with evil associates for long, or someone who constantly is offending her code. If the caster is Good (in the case of wizards or sorcerers, who have no restrictions on casting the spell), or Neutral (such as gray clerics), the Paladin may find it offensive, but perhaps tolerable.
Honestly, if the Paladin makes a fuss about it, you may not be able to convince them if they refuse to listen. However, it's absolutely impossible to argue that undead are innately evil without resorting to "well just because they are", which in a real situation has no weight.
Honestly, I'd let the Paladin and the rest of the group know that it's the Paladin being unreasonable. The Paladin has no right to say what the rest of the party does. Request, sure, but if the Necromancer in the party pops some undead zombies up, and the Paladin complains, he's free to leave. It's not you that is causing the problem, but the Paladin and his rigidness. The Paladin is the one who is creating the problem (notice the Necromancer likely doesn't have a class feature telling him he can't be friends with the Paladin), so either he can get over it, or he can get lost.
It's as simple as that.
Except, of course, the fact that skeletons and the like are innately evil. "They just are."
If this is a good campaign, and it sounds like it is since there's a paladin, it's not the Paladin's problem. It's the problem of whoever wants to be doing evil things in a good campaign.
Are you deadset (groan) on playing a necromancer? Sounds like your character is going to cause a party schism.No, but I'd like to have the option for 'disposable' minions.
I'll join with MDT's voice.
The Paladin will likely have issues with your behaviour, because he'll be good (assuming he is a "he")
The barbarian will likely have issues with your behaviour, if he's Good.
The fighter will likely have issues with your behaviour, if he's Good.
The ranger will likely have issues with your behaviour, if he's Good.
The wizard will likely have issues with your behaviour, if he's Good.
The cleric will likely have issues with your behaviour, if he's Good.
well, you get the picture...
'findel
What do you intend to play? A wizard? You can play a wizard with minions (all kinds - summons, planar allies, gate) without using undead.
Let me get this straight? If one player wants to play a paladin, the rest of the group has to kowtow to said wish? I think not. I'm DM'ing a Carrion Crown right now, and we have a Paladin the group, but the issue was cleared with all players in character creation, and everyone built their characters accordingly, resulting in a mix of good and neutral characters.
However, conversely, if 3 of my 4 players wanted an evil campaign and the 4th wanted to play a Paladin? I'd give him the choice of playing an antipaladin instead, or any other class for that matter, or play a paladin and face the consequences. Just because the Paladin class has a strict code doesn't give one player the right to subjugate the desires of three other players on a whim to play one.
I've DM'd good, neutral, and evil campaigns and all of them can be fun and work equally well. All of them, however, are incumbent upon mutual respect for one another by everyone at the table.