...people are still on about this.
I don't know what to say.
Aside from maybe starting any Mythic rules with Apostae as the launch point.
"Apostae"?!
Why, I love a good pasta!
(I'm thinking spaghetti, tonight! It'll be amazing! Mythic even!)
I'm more partial to the meatballs, myself. Pasta just doesn't do it, ya know.
Well what about roast chicken (which is what I did tonight instead)?
Also, Macaroni and Cheese is excellent, even without meat! (Although, I've got to say, chili, chicken, and tuna each go great with it, although, you know, not at the same time... maybe.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"Apostae"?!
Why, I love a good pasta!
(I'm thinking spaghetti, tonight! It'll be amazing! Mythic even!)
Just remember to provide some food for the pet Rovagug handed out by the 21st level welcoming committee. I hear the little guy can get a bit agitated if he's not properly fed!
I'm more partial to the meatballs, myself. Pasta just doesn't do it, ya know.Well what about roast chicken (which is what I did tonight instead)?
Also, Macaroni and Cheese is excellent, even without meat! (Although, I've got to say, chili, chicken, and tuna each go great with it, although, you know, not at the same time... maybe.)
Chicken-based chili (as opposed to the more common beef base) is really not all that bad. It's definitely a different taste, but not an unpleasant one.
Not a tuna fan though.
Just remember to provide some food for the pet Rovagug handed out by the 21st level welcoming committee. I hear the little guy can get a bit agitated if he's not properly fed!
Hahahahahahah! Okay: you really got me! Well, played!
Chicken-based chili (as opposed to the more common beef base) is really not all that bad. It's definitely a different taste, but not an unpleasant one.I'm more partial to the meatballs, myself. Pasta just doesn't do it, ya know.Well what about roast chicken (which is what I did tonight instead)?
Also, Macaroni and Cheese is excellent, even without meat! (Although, I've got to say, chili, chicken, and tuna each go great with it, although, you know, not at the same time... maybe.)
Actually, yes, chicken (and turkey) based chili can be pretty good! (And is definitely different.)
Not a tuna fan though.
Yeah. Neither is my wife. :/
Not a tuna fan though.Yeah. Neither is my wife. :/
Ummm. My wife makes a wonderful Tuna Melt.
-- david
Papa.DRB
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For those who are desperate for 21+ level gameplay, are you all aware of Little Red Goblin Games' Legendary Levels and Legendary Levels II?
Double-checked, to make sure I'm not spelling it wrong.
Apostae, the Messenger.
Yup, that's the right planet.
Start Mythic stuff there, if you're going to do it.
That's something on which the godhunter optimunchkins can use their noodles.
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Double-checked, to make sure I'm not spelling it wrong.
Apostae, the Messenger.
Yup, that's the right planet.
Start Mythic stuff there, if you're going to do it.
That's something on which the godhunter optimunchkins can use their noodles.
Optimuchkins is kinda insulting on several levels. It's not as if anyone needs epic levels to optimize and create "broken" characters.
Regarding your suggestion, put all the Mythic stuff far away on another planet, well it might just as well be another plane. Not really in love with the idea, when people want to play pathfinder at these levels they want Golaron to play in/with.
Some of the scenarios where the heroes lose, where the BBEG is not stopped and transforms into a terrible monster/recovers his old power/unleashes something terrible from its prison - thats where an epic campaign could start. ^^
Double-checked, to make sure I'm not spelling it wrong.
Apostae, the Messenger.
Yup, that's the right planet.
Start Mythic stuff there, if you're going to do it.
That's something on which the godhunter optimunchkins can use their noodles.
Optimuchkins is kinda insulting on several levels. It's not as if anyone needs epic levels to optimize and create "broken" characters.
Regarding your suggestion, put all the Mythic stuff far away on another planet, well it might just as well be another plane. Not really in love with the idea, when people want to play pathfinder at these levels they want Golaron to play in/with.
Some of the scenarios where the heroes lose, where the BBEG is not stopped and transforms into a terrible monster/recovers his old power/unleashes something terrible from its prison - thats where an epic campaign could start. ^^
While intended to be mildly derisive, it was more intended as the sort of chicanary one saves for siblings whim one disagrees with but will ultimately defend from outside sources, and a simple smiley emote doesn't convey that well enough. My apologies if sensibilities were dinged - I'm just having a bit of jest. However, I'm still not convinced that what you've described would necessitate play above the 15-20 range of levels, based on purely the description without filling in particular names as wildcards.
For example - the Whispering Tyrant. No way in the Nine Hells one person, let alone one party, should be able to take him on, without unbelievable amounts of luck, gear, and coordination. But, as a major counterpoint, they should be able to whittle away at his power source...if they can find it. They should be able to win by wits and luck, even where brute force and luck would fail. To give another example - the aboleth attempting to Colony Drop on top of Golarion again should be thwartable by characters before level 20, even if the aboleth use their abilities, talents, and abilities to the utmost. Such a scenario would not suffice as a mere hack and slash fest with bigger numbers - every bit of knowledge, ability, and skill the characters can bring to bear should be utilized to the utmost.
I also respectfully disagree with the idea of people necessarily wanting to play on Golarion at Mythic levels, because by that point if they've not already scoured the planet for artifact and antiquities of every shape, size, and variety, they'll want to basically TAKE OVER THE WORLD *thundercrack* and, while at least partially plausible via Kingmaker and fun in the River Kingdoms, the fact that there's other champions out there, others who might have a problem with the PCs declaring themselves the uncontested rulers of the planet, and while the idea might appeal to some, it really doesn't tickle my fancy. Truth be told, I'd more want to go into the Intrigue and Conspiracies end of things, a la Dynasties and Demagogues, but I'm also a politicking nerd.
One reason why Apostae appeals to my Mythic Sensibilities is the idea that, for lack of a better term, it seems to me like the seed for a Pathfinder-izd version of Titan AE. Not only would a whole new planet be a potential play reward, far and away a trophy beyond the scope of most play, but then the REAL conflicts can begin.
After all, those involved with its Genesis are most qualified to become the world's new gods...literally or metaphorically. Then again, maybe they just want to experience this new world from the same perspective of its inhabitants. Or maybe its very creation draws the ire of the greater cosmic forces of entropy, who are very put out at a freshly spawned new source of life that is insufficiently corrupt...or, in the case of world-scouring qlippoth, that is a potential torrent of new souls to reinforce their demonic enemies.
One thing is true, at least for me, Epic levels are not supposed to be in only one plane, bi level 20 you should have explore most of the world, you need to go to others planes and maybe planets, but I do not seem right to be banned from Golarion
I almost forgot.
Optimuchkins is kinda insulting on several levels. It's not as if anyone needs epic levels to optimize and create "broken" characters.
No, but it is the most common justification for content to pander to their dysfunctional wish-fulfilment avatars. :D
Also, Optimunchkin Prime would need to be voice acted by Richard Gautier. His nemesis would be Rolemaster, as in the RPG, and as a book would never speak. Yet OP would react as if it were speaking and threatening him.
...I was going somewhere with that but I got lost.
Honestly, at epic levels you should be defending Golarion from outside threats. Things the non-epic characters have no idea exist, Men In Black style.
I want to hate you for making me want that. I can't. It's too...spiffy.
I would like to see a Psionics book then an Epic level book. Even though I have not seen epic level play in many years, most play seems to fall apart around 13th-15th level.
I came close to seeing high level play with the group I was in back in Arizona. The GM was running the Rune Lords path, but I had to move before he finished it.
Wanna know one of the reasons that high-level, much less "epic"-level content is so rare? Because by that level, like Snorter said, it's hard to think up plots that actually stand up to the least bit of scrutiny.
Either the players should use their high-level powers to make the "threat" a non-issues rather easily, or the BBEG should use his high-level powers to make the threat happen long before the characters get wind of it.
This I believe is true.
Paizo has said repeatedly - if I recall correctly - what they will support the mythis rules, if they produce them. I fail to see how, so I would not worry to much about opportunity cost.
Mythic tales require a setting that support it - like Mazalan, Melnibone or the Forgotten Realms. Mona wrote something about setting integrity (regarding Greyhawk), so Golarion fans should not worry either. Paizo is unlikely to wreck Golarion just because they can with any new rules.
Also, a 32 page one-shot is IMO a contradiction in terms. A mythic one-shot? Really? Mythic adventures needs more space, and probably a fair bit of handwaving, and is thus hard to do in a marketable format.
I still want epic rules, but Paizo need to carefully consider just what they want to do with them, and of course opportunity cost.
I think the ELH and the Legendary Levels rules both made the mistake of making the game more complex. I'm hoping for a solid hardcover that over levels 15-36. I hoping for a lean and mean rules set with no new subsystems, based on e20, with 100+ epic feats (the campaign feats from Ultimate Campaigns sounds like a fine building block to me), and a handful of epic level templates for monsters.
This would give us tools to create our own stuff and more time to play with our munchkin characters (Waldorph! anybody? anybody?), James Jacobs could finally stat up demon lords, Paizos loss would be minimized if the book flops, the book works as a reference for "normal" campaigns, and the rules would be fairly manageable compared to the current rules.
(Almost) everybody wins!
Sorry! My bad! (I actually was literally just thinking of pasta, though, just before I read that, so it seemed like perfect opportunity.)
Also, while I'm aware of legendary levels (at least the first one, I was not of the second, and I've not purchased either yet), there's another thread 'round here that perfectly describes what it's like trying to overcome the heavy anti-3PP sentiment about... well... anything.
Personally, I'd be perfectly fine with the idea of Paizo just straight-up adopting Dreamscarred Press' psionics stuff, because, if Paizo used that, it'd suddenly be a lot easier to get others to accept it. If Paizo does it, than it suddenly becomes "official" to many. Epic/Mythic is similar.
Basically mythic levels has its detractors (even from those who like the idea). 3PP has its detractors (even from those who like the Open License). Attempting to place both of those together into a single package has double the difficulty in getting that accepted at all.
Personally, I'm all for 3PP, but I don't know how Legendary Levels deals with stuff. Is it good? I don't know! (Though the first has a four-star rating, so that's definitely something in its favor.)
The other side of it is that we'd like to see Paizo's take on it, because Paizo has a certain feel they're going for with Golarion. Similarly, I like to make my own worlds, but they each have very different "feels" to them (and thus slight rules adjustments) compared to Golarion. If I published epic works, such things would necessarily cater to my style of play and world-creation. (Incidentally, the most "power-gamey" world I created, "The APG, Worldbuilding, and You", also has a level cap... that can be removed, only so you have a new level cap).
So if I made it, it'd be complicated, intricate, and have lots of "fiddly bits", as I like to call them. Whereas if someone else made it, it would look and feel different. And Paizo has it's own thing. They've got a history, and they've got an understanding of what that history is. They need to build the rules that cater to their style, otherwise it won't really fit in with Golarion when they do try to publish a book. I don't mean simple, stylistic choices like "Clerics must have a god.", but rather important things like, "How does this event even happen? Can it? In what way such a thing occur in Golarion?" You know, that kind of stuff.
So, while I'm actually quite interested in the 3PP stuff, I'm also hesitant to embrace it as the One True Path for Golarion, because it might mess with the setting, style, and tone, and - more importantly to me - the history and canon.
On the other hand, it might be perfect. :)
Official support would be nice, because Paizo has resources most 3pp lack. While that isn't a problem for things like monster manuals, feats, fluff, etc, I think Mythic Levels would require fairly extensive playtesting as well as a design team fully focused on the matter. WOTC I don't think pulled off epic levels well, which makes me skeptical that a 3pp is up to the task.
All good - one of my favorite things about these boards is people can have very vocal opinions, and yet agree to (vehemently) disagree. It's no kumbaya, but still gives the warm and fuzzies.
Though on one thing, I have to agree - when it's done, it will be done right. Paizo as yet to let me down.
I just want to see it after a bit more 15-20 content. And a metric tonnage of Vudra goodies. Cause, seriously? VUDRA.
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Honestly, at epic levels you should be defending Golarion from outside threats. Things the non-epic characters have no idea exist, Men In Black style.
Exactly!
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Well what about roast chicken (which is what I did tonight instead)?
Also, Macaroni and Cheese is excellent, even without meat! (Although, I've got to say, chili, chicken, and tuna each go great with it, although, you know, not at the same time... maybe.)
To be completely honest, chicken really doesn't do it for me either. I know, odd. I've always found it rather tasteless, (no matter what you do to it), with the exception of a few cajun awesomenesses and fast food which I mostly gave up. M&C can be wonderful, though meat certainly does help. I'm particularly fond of tuna, though.
:)
Beckett, RE: Fast-Food Chicken - Chick-Fil-A and Popey's. They are beautifully tasty (though I don't eat out much, anymore, either.) RE: M&C-with-Tuna - ROCK ON! RE: 3.5 - yeah, I know; me too, sometimes, buddy... me too.
Kind of reminds me of the Keepers of the Corelean Sign in 3.5, and makes me miss 3.5, again. . . :(
THAT's the name of that group! THANK YOU SIR! Could not for the life of me find/remember it!
I'm not sure about that idea... sounds great on paper, but sounds complicated in the end, simply I just don't WANT it to be like the Epic Level Handbook.
- Base attack bonus should keep on increasing on their normal rates, thus a fighter gaining more than 4 attacks per round.
- Saves should keep on increasing on their normal rates.
- There should be a 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th and 14th spell level, complete with brand new spells. Same would apply with Bards and Magi passing 6th-level and Paladins and Rangers passing 4th-level.
- Get rid of the spell creation aspect... it got out of hand pretty quick.
- There should be Item Creation feats that bypass some limits, like crafting wands above 4th level and potions above 3rd level.
- The Prestige Classes should be more balanced and less over-the-top.
- Monsters should be relatively low level, like 20 to 35... not above that much.
- There should be rules to guide DMs on how to use low-level creatures against epic characters, like swarms, squadrons and such.
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I'm not sure about that idea... sounds great on paper, but sounds complicated in the end, simply I just don't WANT it to be like the Epic Level Handbook.
- Base attack bonus should keep on increasing on their normal rates, thus a fighter gaining more than 4 attacks per round.
- Saves should keep on increasing on their normal rates.
- There should be a 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th and 14th spell level, complete with brand new spells. Same would apply with Bards and Magi passing 6th-level and Paladins and Rangers passing 4th-level.
- Get rid of the spell creation aspect... it got out of hand pretty quick.
- There should be Item Creation feats that bypass some limits, like crafting wands above 4th level and potions above 3rd level.
- The Prestige Classes should be more balanced and less over-the-top.
- Monsters should be relatively low level, like 20 to 35... not above that much.
- There should be rules to guide DMs on how to use low-level creatures against epic characters, like swarms, squadrons and such.
Sorry, but some of those ideas are really not that awesome:
-Base attack bonus: A level 20 fighter already has a preatty bad chance fot his worst attack to be meaningfull if he has 10 attacks at BAB 50 about 5 of those are completely useless in a challenging encounter. Well at least that was the logic the designers of the ELH used and I happen to agree.
- Saves: nice in theory but it quickly comes to a situation, where some characters can only save on a nat. 20 and others fail only on a nat. 1. Thats not really all that much fun. Of course there could be a better solution than the old one.
-Spells: cool idea but a lot of work, but hey give them the slots and some example spells and let some other publsihers try it
-You know I spend about 90000 times longer tinkering with epic spells, than playing ... but yeah the system has to go or be replaced with something wayyyy more solid.
- Item Creation: Of course no problem with that, even before mystic levels, but wands might be a bad ivestment if staffs are available because of the DC and CL. Alchemist can cast up to 6th level spells no reason not to allow some way to brew those - of course they are way more expensive than scrolls.
- Presige classes: You know there is not reason why all prestige classes should not be balanced - not just the mystic ones
- Monsters, I see no good reason to limit yourself here. Depending on the setting, there could monsters even the gods are scared of (the snarl, wolfs and snakes that eat the world...)
-GM stuff - sure lots of it. How to handle the transition in you world, how to keep characters on their from breaking the game...
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Aaaaaand boom goes the dynamite....
Mythic Adventures announced on Buhlman's facebook, playtest next month
slightly ninja'd by TOZ, but this one's from the man hisself
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Kind of reminds me of the Keepers of the Corelean Sign in 3.5, and makes me miss 3.5, again. . . :(THAT's the name of that group! THANK YOU SIR! Could not for the life of me find/remember it!
No worries my friend. They can be found in Lords of Madness, the bestiary sort of book for Aberrations. I'm very surprized with Paizo's vaunted love of Lovecraftianess, that there are not many more PC's and organizations like this in their Golarion?
So how do I sign up for the playtest!
So how do I sign up for the playtest!
Chances are it's public.
It will be a public test. I have this from the Man Himself.
... yes. Sorry! My silliness was not clear enough in my previous post.
Sorry, but some of those ideas are really not that awesome:
-Base attack bonus: A level 20 fighter already has a preatty bad chance fot his worst attack to be meaningfull if he has 10 attacks at BAB 50 about 5 of those are completely useless in a challenging encounter. Well at least that was the logic the designers of the ELH used and I happen to agree.
Well in that case, cap it at 5 attacks then, and yes, have wizards go beyond 2 and rogues beyond 3. That would be a fair deal.
- Saves: nice in theory but it quickly comes to a situation, where some characters can only save on a nat. 20 and others fail only on a nat. 1. Thats not really all that much fun. Of course there could be a better solution than the old one.
My reasoning is that in the ELH, the saves increase at the same rate, when they shouldn't and keep increasing that their standard rate. A fighter should still have a lower Reflex and Will save bonus.
-Spells: cool idea but a lot of work, but hey give them the slots and some example spells and let some other publsihers try it
Indeed, because it ended up like that same spell with 4 metamagic feats attached to it... kinda boring.
-You know I spend about 90000 times longer tinkering with epic spells, than playing ... but yeah the system has to go or be replaced with something wayyyy more solid.
The problem is the balance: you could make a spell that deals 1000d6 points of damage, but could also had an army of disciples sacrifice a spell slot and take damage. Where's the scaling ? None of the requirements had the usual "per caster level" mecanic, it was all fixed. The Spellcraft DC mecanic was also a joke. The risk vs reward for casting a spell you've created was underwhelming.
- Item Creation: Of course no problem with that, even before mystic levels, but wands might be a bad ivestment if staffs are available because of the DC and CL. Alchemist can cast up to 6th level spells no reason not to allow some way to brew those - of course they are way more expensive than scrolls.
Wands vs Staves is debatable. I personally think a wand is better than a staff do to the 50-charge capacity. Sure, it's not rechargeable, but a 10-charge staff that you can only recharge 1 charge at a time can be tedious to use. The wand is ready anytime.
- Prestige classes: You know there is not reason why all prestige classes should not be balanced - not just the mystic ones
Just because you've passed level 20 doesn't mean you should get overpowered.
- Monsters, I see no good reason to limit yourself here. Depending on the setting, there could monsters even the gods are scared of (the snarl, wolfs and snakes that eat the world...)
Well, no DM uses high-level monsters. I mean, who seriously used a CR 50 monster in a game that started at level 5 ? I'd rather have lots of "low-level" monsters I could use then have a bunch that I might never use.
-GM stuff - sure lots of it. How to handle the transition in you world, how to keep characters on their from breaking the game...
I'm also trying to avoid the "one-man army" scenario, where a single PC can single-handedly plow throught thousand of soldiers. That PC should get hurt at some point.
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Aaaaaand boom goes the dynamite....
Mythic Adventures announced on Buhlman's facebook, playtest next month
slightly ninja'd by TOZ, but this one's from the man hisself
Yes finally. Now if only we can get psionic rules I will be a happy gamer. And yes I know and own the Dreamscarred psionics books. Wonder how long before the doom and gloom start with the announcment.
Yes finally. Now if only we can get psionic rules I will be a happy gamer.
And then the Numeria AP.
I'm a happy gamer anyway, but those would make me even more joyful. :)
I rather get the Numeria AP, then a Swords & Planet AP.
Sounds intriguing, but it also sounds a bit more akin to Deific rather than Epic (levels you can gain not tied to XP). Of course, I'm withholding any actual judgements until more details are available. (And regardless, I'm sure the final product will be fun.)
*a lot of stuff but this is what caught the eye*
I'm also trying to avoid the "one-man army" scenario, where a single PC can single-handedly plow throught thousand of soldiers. That PC should get hurt at some point
This...oddly, would bother me less in a Mythic scale campaign, if done RIGHT.
The problem I run into is describing it in a way as awesome as it deserves to be. I can only shamelessly crib from Shin Sangoku\Sengoku Muso and Sengoku Basara *so* much without it becoming obvious.
I honestly would not have a problem with, say, ways to recreate Extreme Mode Battle of Hu Lao Gate, with the PCs as Lu Bu. Sure, they'd get scuffed up, and take some damage, but they should, in theory, be able to survive. After all, they've geared up, and buffed up, so they should be able to weather a living tide...right?
Just got out of the rules design seminar. It's going to be an overlay system. You can be a 10th level fighter, or in a mythic campaign you could be Fighter 10/(Mythic Path Name) 5. They don't follow an experience system and are more subjective when you level, but the basic design goal is that whatever level you are, you could also be half that level in mythic progression and that would be most appropriate.
It's not going to be a lot of numerical increases, but new options and some more powerful options that stack ontop of your other stuff. Like a fighters iterative attacks can be boosted to have the same attack value of their first attack. A wizard could cast a normal fireball, or he could spend a mythic point and turn it into a mythic fireball.
For monsters it follows a similar track, their mythic progression is 1/2 their CR and if you add the two values that's their new standard CR. They're useful in a mythic game, of course, but it sounds like they'll work really well as solo enemies in a standard campaign as well (they can spend mythic points to increase their action economy).
It sounded like they weren't big fans of the mathematical disparity at 20+, and they also wanted to make it a system useable at lower levels as well.
There was lots of cool stuff and I'm sure the video or one of the 3-4 audios will surface in a couple days.
I'm going with "cautiously optimistic". I can't say for certain until I see how this overlay thing works, but the basic premise sounds interesting at least.
Thirded!
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I almost forgot.
Optimuchkins is kinda insulting on several levels. It's not as if anyone needs epic levels to optimize and create "broken" characters.No, but it is the most common justification for content to pander to their dysfunctional wish-fulfilment avatars. :D
Also, Optimunchkin Prime would need to be voice acted by Richard Gautier. His nemesis would be Rolemaster, as in the RPG, and as a book would never speak. Yet OP would react as if it were speaking and threatening him.
...I was going somewhere with that but I got lost.
^^ ok but just keep the movie rights close ... under no circumastances is Uwe Boll allowed near the project . :P
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Sorry, but some of those ideas are really not that awesome:
-Base attack bonus: A level 20 fighter already has a preatty bad chance fot his worst attack to be meaningfull if he has 10 attacks at BAB 50 about 5 of those are completely useless in a challenging encounter. Well at least that was the logic the designers of the ELH used and I happen to agree.
Well in that case, cap it at 5 attacks then, and yes, have wizards go beyond 2 and rogues beyond 3. That would be a fair deal.
- Saves: nice in theory but it quickly comes to a situation, where some characters can only save on a nat. 20 and others fail only on a nat. 1. Thats not really all that much fun. Of course there could be a better solution than the old one.My reasoning is that in the ELH, the saves increase at the same rate, when they shouldn't and keep increasing that their standard rate. A fighter should still have a lower Reflex and Will save bonus.
-Spells: cool idea but a lot of work, but hey give them the slots and some example spells and let some other publsihers try itIndeed, because it ended up like that same spell with 4 metamagic feats attached to it... kinda boring.
-You know I spend about 90000 times longer tinkering with epic spells, than playing ... but yeah the system has to go or be replaced with something wayyyy more solid.The problem is the balance: you could make a spell that deals 1000d6 points of damage, but could also had an army of disciples sacrifice a spell slot and take damage. Where's the scaling ? None of the requirements had the usual "per caster level" mecanic, it was all fixed. The Spellcraft DC mecanic was also a joke. The risk vs reward for casting a spell you've created was underwhelming.
- Item Creation: Of course no problem with that, even before mystic levels, but wands might be a bad ivestment if staffs are available because of the DC and CL....
Well lets be optimistic - playtest next month.
I would like to see a Psionics book then an Epic level book. Even though I have not seen epic level play in many years, most play seems to fall apart around 13th-15th level.
Sorry, while Psionics has been in the game since 1st .ed DnD, I just feel that they don't fit in the genre when you already have magic.
... but why?
(Actually, if you wish to articulate that, please do so in this thread to avoid further derail. I'd like to know your thoughts, though.)