Well, let's put this in a slightly different context.
If it does well? Yay, success. Do more of it.
Since any company has limited resources, this is a problem if the thing they are doing "more of" doesn't appeal to you. Pretty benign issue, however. Though this issue is the #1 reason why I was glad to see Goblinworks taking on the computer gaming side rather than Paizo directly.
If it does poorly? Oh well, we tried. Set it on the back burner and hey maybe down the road when things are slow we can try a revamp.
As an example: Epic level handbook, Bestiary, & Module planned & developed. The Epic level handbook flops. Thy're stuck with an overstock of said item. Since they bundled development as a rulebook, a bestiary, and a module, it's a much bigger issue than if they overestimated the print run of an individual module. If the issue is big enough, you end up with possibilities that include: a tightening of the corporate belt (no raises this year), delays in future products, or worse case - having to lay off employees. This isn't Monopoly money.
Note: This is obviously a simplified example. The scale would have to be significant or there would have to be other converging/contributing factors. However, the impact would likely not be insignificant enough to hand-wave it away with an "oh well, we tried".
I have to admit to not having much sympathy to the "if this thing comes out I'll have to cancel my subscription until it's passed" excuse personally.
It's not about wanting to elicit sympathy. I can vote in two ways: On the forums (aka hot air) or with my wallet (putting my money where my mouth is). It's a desire to provide full disclosure from my side -- I don't want this product. I don't want it so much that I'm willing to go through the hassle of cancelling subscriptions. Even if it's only temporary, I'm making an argument that's stronger than "maybe I'll get it, maybe I won't" which doesn't tell Paizo much of anything.
You see it in the AP line frequently. Someone doesn't care for where an AP is set or its theme, they post they'll drop their subscription. Personally, I think that's foolish as I find the APs to be a tremendous value even when I'm not crazy about a particular storyline. But I get why they say it and do it. Why buy a product you don't want?
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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My question...once you've turned up way past 11, where do you go? When your characters become more powerful than the gods, what point is there to playing any more? At what level does your cleric start granting Desna spells instead of the other way around? If you have Rovagug on a leash as your pet...what more is there to do?
Well, I, and many other 21+ supporters, would probably say that there's a pretty big gap between 20th level and keeping the gods as pets. We'd like to explore that gap. There are non-"kick the gods in the face" plotlines that can't be readily solved by 9th level spells, especially if you keep strict controls on wish and miracle.
Also, the system does not equal Golarion. Some of us use the Pathfinder system to run our own worlds. Personally, I'd really like to do Dark Sun in Pathfidner but that requires both psionics and 21+ to do properly. I can turn to 3PP to do psionics but I'd rather not use the ELH.
I also agree with Orthos in that I'm pro-everything. Short list of things I'd like to see someday (and will freely admit that many of these are probably not a good idea):
21+ rules
psionics
time travel
modern version of Pathfinder
sci-fi version of Pathfinder
I have to admit, I've a bit of bias in this discussion due to my mindset as far as making and selling things goes. In ANY situation where someone says "Should we do X?" My answer will ALWAYS be YES. Every time. Because I am always up for new products, new themes, new ideas being tried.
If it does well? Yay, success. Do more of it.
If it does poorly? Oh well, we tried. Set it on the back burner and hey maybe down the road when things are slow we can try a revamp.
This would either make me a very good (if lucky) or very terrible (if not) entrepreneur on my own, but hey that's how my brain works.
I have to admit to not having much sympathy to the "if this thing comes out I'll have to cancel my subscription until it's passed" excuse personally. Part of that is not being a subscriber myself; I only buy things individually, as they interest me, and can't afford a consistent subscription anyway. But on top of that my response to the "have to cancel my subscription" answer has always been "Okay you do that, that's what people who don't want the product SHOULD do" and just go from there. So there's that. Full disclosure.
+1 having more option is always better than few even if you are not going to use them
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Also, for the record, in describing the downside/risks above I am not suggesting Paizo would fall prey to those or haven't accounted for them. They've shown repeatedly that their business savvy with respect to the RPG market is second to none. It's merely to illustrate that risks exist and such project aren't undertaken lightly which too often in these threads gets hand-waved away in order to satisfy the "me want now" impulse.
And believe me, I get that impulse, too. I want Ultimate Campaigns like yesterday.
Yup, with you on that.
Things just seem to get a little heated in here is all, so yeah. =D
+1 having more option is always better than few even if you are not going to use them
Not exactly.
More GOOD options are better than few good options. More mediocre or crappy options don't make a game better. Even many of the fans/advocates of epic-level play don't hold the ELH in high regard.
While I have every confidence Paizo could provide the best epic-level treatment published, history on the handling of this topic is not a great indicator for hope. You have underlying issues with the math of the system to contend with at a minimum. You also have WIDELY diverging views of what epic-level play should entail.
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My question...once you've turned up way past 11, where do you go? When your characters become more powerful than the gods, what point is there to playing any more? At what level does your cleric start granting Desna spells instead of the other way around? If you have Rovagug on a leash as your pet...what more is there to do?
The Test of the Starstone allows you to ascend instantly.Which is one reason I would wager a good amount of money we never see an "official" Test of the Starstone published by Paizo.
Nethys did so by casting an uber spell.
IE, GM fiat.
Irori did it by merely being that awesome.
More GM fiat.
Gods happen, and adventurers ascend to become gods.
Hahah! I love the argument, "Man, your game idea sucks! So what happens when you get to X point?" because, quite simply, if you want to, you continue to game. If, on the other hand, you don't, you quit. Wow! That's such a difficult concept to fathom! I mean... can someone really quit when they want?
And your extremely trite ways of writing off what happened? Yeah. That's b#$!#@*s too.
This post is basically, "You play it wrong and you should feel wrong."
What more is there to do? Plenty! Create new worlds, seed new planets with life, explore, look at the Elder things beyond time boldly explore where all the "lesser" gods care not to go... there are literally limitless adventures that can be had with imagination.
If, on the other hand, you're asking what happens to the campaign setting when a character becomes a god?
Well, in our FR settings (which differ slightly* from the official), as the direct result of a single campaign, we've got:
1) Crystal, the Dark Dancer (successfully stole an avatar off of Shar)
- she rules a powerful tripartate flying city over the Cloven mountains, south of the Vilhoun Rea- ... er Wilds. Her daughter, Sapphire is the newest Nightsinger (after the previous Nightsinger, Tessa, a co-conspirator with Crystal who stole another avatar - was murdered by Shar after the Spellplague)
2) Basha, goddess of Turmish. Just what it says on the tin. She's now an aspect of Amaunator.
3) Stonecutter, the god of half-giants, hunters and trappers, and spiders. Short version: he hates Lolth and Shades, is best buds with the svirfneblin, and has a forest kingdom full of fey that rely on him to keep them safe from the encroaching power of darkness.
4) Chinac, the god of svirfneblin, teamwork, and information networks. He created epic illusions of the other gnome gods that lasted long enough to become real again after the spellplague. He is secretly masquerading as Calladuran Smoothhands.
5) Cervan, the Miserable - a traitor to his own goddess and friends, he was eventually destroyed by his treachery, before being "rescued" from hell's torments by Shar herself... the one goddess he always despised. He's now bound to her "forever" as an unwilling thrall, always hunting for his own son to murder in Shar's name.
These guys? All former player characters. In a recent game, some of these same players actually took up Basha as their patron, they set sail from Turmish and ended up very important people in Imaskar, Turmish, and Chessenta. My group completely forgot that the above were characters in a campaign they'd played in before**. I was asked - more than once - "Was she written up that way in the books? Which book was he from again? I don't remember that!"
That? That's a delightful, amazing thing. What I was doing? Telling them the church's interpretation of their own exploits. That's just one example. I've got more, actually.
The sheer delight on their now low-level faces as they suddenly remembered that the epic story their character had "grown up with" was, in fact, their own actions in another game, told through the lens of the faithful, was beautiful.
The actual fun they had doing those things in the first place? Amazing.
Me? I've got some stories to write with the help of my fellow players. Some of 'em grow into the really high levels. Some don't. Saying, "It's stupid if you go too high!" is really just another way of saying, "You're playing it wrong!" and that's not cool.
"What then?"
Well, "Let's find out!"
* Surprisingly ours fits in rather nicely with most WotC canon, should we choose to follow it that way. Although we've split the world into three different timelines now, each more divergent from WotC than the last due to stuff that's happened, it works for us.
** Usually they would remember moments after they asked the question.
EDIT: In my haste for sarcasm, I let grammar and spelling slip! For shame on me! For shame, I say!
I have to point out that the Serpent's Skull campaign already gives some background information that sets a precedent for mortals being able to defeat a demigod. It will only be disappointing if players are never allowed to do the same thing.
At least, the pathfinder wiki calls him a demigod. I thought he was was a full god.
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Well, in our FR settings (which differ slightly* from the official), as the direct result of a single campaign, we've got:
Okay I gotta admit, I'd play the heck out of a game like this. And I don't even like FR that much anymore. The last game I played there, I hit it with an asteroid. Thank you Malhavoc Press.
Short list of things I'd like to see someday (and will freely admit that many of these are probably not a good idea):
21+ rules
psionics
time travel
modern version of Pathfinder
sci-fi version of Pathfinder
YES! All these. My order of preference from highest to lowest would be:
Psionics
Modern
Sci-Fi
Epic
Time Travel (never thought of this one before, but am intrigued)
I have to point out that the Serpent's Skull campaign already gives some background information that sets a precedent for mortals being able to defeat a demigod. It will only be disappointing if players are never allowed to do the same thing.
At least, the pathfinder wiki calls him a demigod. I thought he was was a full god.
** spoiler omitted **
Similarly, Tar-Baphon - being not a (demi-)god, nor demonlord/archduke of hell/horseman/eldest/etc - humiliated and slew Arazni.
I think he was a god at one time, but now is barely considered a demigod. Or somesuch.
Well, in our FR settings (which differ slightly* from the official), as the direct result of a single campaign, we've got:Okay I gotta admit, I'd play the heck out of a game like this. And I don't even like FR that much anymore. The last game I played there, I hit it with an asteroid. Thank you Malhavoc Press.
Heh! I'm glad you like the sound of it! I used to live in Chattanooga, too. If you're ever down my way, however, give me a hollar!
(The first campaign mentioned was part of the "Largest Campaign I Ever GM'd" [tm])
The first (several, actually) games were from the 3.0/3.5 era, with the most recent being a (very-house-ruled) 4E. Sapphire was never a player character. Tessa should have been in her own slot. And I forgot Cheeze (short for "Cheesecake the Venerable") - a sorcerer who was played by a true outlier. He became an epic mage who was integral to the plot, only to later be hit by the spellplague while he was undergoing his 666th reincarnation, and turned into a blob of maddened stuff (like a chaos beast/gibbering mouther-mage) and was also kidnapped by Shar for revenge. He has little to no memory of his former life, and is now called "Shyz the Awful". He actually doesn't care, though, and is currently still attempting to milk yaks and cats, as he did before. It's still not working. No, I don't know either, and I was the GM.
As for non-player characters, we also have:
1) Xan, Xan, and, until recently, Xaos
Due to one of the PCs becoming super-romantically involved with him (but only after he was an Eidolon, much to his chagrin), he actually jeopardized his mission - one that he'd been working on forever - to create a "back-up" of sorts of his mind (and erase Crystal, the PC in question, and other sensitive information from it). Crystal was later able to use that to reboot him into a new all-different permanent body.
The original Xan meanwhile resides as a faithful dead in the Gates of the Moon.
The eidolon? When he went to "face off" against Shar (a battle he knew he would lose) to draw attention away from the PCs, he lost, badly. Unexpectedly, however, he was corrupted, and altered and twisted into Xaos, Shar meddling with the PCs ultimate goal. (Shenanigans were involved in attempting to create a new god-thing. Long story.) The PCs were successful (but didn't know the results until recently), but so was Shar, and (with Cervan's magical help via his new god Cyric), by throwing the corrupted Xan/Xaos eidolon into the god-mix in secret she eventually dragged it down into her dark places, driving it irreparably mad, but chaining it to herself.
The most recent campaign had them facing off against... the thing Xaos'd become (effectively a 4E primordial/demon-lord-like thing). They destroyed it. They think. It was fairly traumatic for the former Crystal player, but she handled it really well and it was kind of amazing.
Short version: three variants of the same guy (I only made one of 'em!) who were so popular only because of PC decisions. It was rather amazing.
2) Basha's Chosen. Oh my word, did that player make Chosen like nobody's business. I'd ad-hoc'd a 1/2 divine rank per chosen (forcing you into the next lower rank with only one chosen) and this player worked at wracking up the ranks only to invest them in all sorts of NPCs. She'd also become good friends with a NPC paladin of Tyr (who was also eventually chosen), so when he was 'sploded, she took the paladin on as one of her own. I gave it to her "for free" as a result. But Turmish (well, the Eternal Sun) is basically lousy with Chosen now, one of which was rather central to the most recent campaign.
ANYWAY. It's tremendously fun.
Also, to ryric's lovely list, I'd put it in the following order:
Psionics
Epic
Modern
Sci-Fi
Time Travel
It's worth noting, that with the Golarion setting...
... we currently have:
* Sci-Fi (Numeria)
... are going to have:
* Epic (promised, and part of multiple elements of the game)
... is under strong consideration and planning:
* Psionics (probably not the power-point system, though, which is a shame)
... leaving only:
* Modern
* Time Travel
... as the things that are unlikely - as far as I know - to appear in PF. The Modern because, by definition, that changes the nature of the campaign setting, or creates an entirely new one (though they could place a strange psuedo-modern location somewhere, which would be pretty neat). The Time Travel, because that would be complicated.
At this stage, I will be disappointed when Paizo begin producing mythic rules, purely because they'll also produce mythic flavor material (since I dont get enough non-mythic stuff at the moment, and getting less will be a shame).
I for one, am really hoping it's an entirely new (sub)system and is less complicated than high level play is currently. What we dont enjoy about high level gaming is the loss of speed as the plethora of options, interacting rules elements, etcetera bogs the game down. If playing a 21st level character is just like a 20th level character only better then it will be hard for us to get motivated to even try it.
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Paizo is NOT taking over the reigns of 3.5. They are one of several companies that have built entirely new games from it's rubble, and have created something entirely new with it. And they've gone directions that WOTC never would have imagined.Pathfinder is NOT Dungeons and Dragons, And it's much better for it.
I know that but for some who how do I put this delicatelly that have a very unhealty dislike for 4E and Wotc in general. Paizo might very well be. And the core book is 3.5. with a few changes. Notice I said the core not the entire PF as a whole. I'm glad that Paizo is doing a good job supporting PF. But groundbreaking not by one hell of a long shot imo. Nothing that Paizo has released is something that eventually with time Wotc could have gotten around to releasing under 3.5. Or already exists in one form or another. With the exception of the core setting book.
PF is one hell of a great rpg. It sure as hell is not the second coming of D&D.
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what bothers me is that it's not so much tht some posters don't wanta Mythic book. It's that by and large all the reasons amoun to is "I don't want this in my game. Therefore Paizo should not publish anything on it". If Paizo would listen to that we would have never received anymore books beyond the core. There were the same arguments with the ARG when it was first announced. I'm getting tired of the Aps quite frankly and unless I hear excellant feedbck I'm probably not going to purchase another AP. Notice that I'm not telling Paizo not to publish anymore Aps just that I no longer like them like I used.
That's the major difference in both sides whenever Paizo wants to add a new book that may add more rules options. One sides does not want to see it all. While the other side may not care for the rules but are like me in that buy if you want feel free to ignore it. Paizo imo is going to lsiten more to the second group.
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It's about opportunity cost - if they make a mythic module, they don't make something else. Producing mythic rules has an impact on my game whether I use them or not in that I don't get something else.
Also, fwiw, I'm not telling paizo not to publish mythic rules, I'm telling them what my preferences are. How will they know if I don't do that? Feedback isn't just about what you'd like, it's also about what you don't like.
I'm not competing with you to persuade them - I'm giving them more information about (one of) their customer's interests in the expectation they'll factor that into their deliberations before making what they think is the best decision.
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Well, I, and many other 21+ supporters, would probably say that there's a pretty big gap between 20th level and keeping the gods as pets.
Yeah, really.
I mean, what you may do in your own home mythic games is your own concern nor will I tell you to play differently, but what possible interpretation of canon Golarion lore suggests that 21st level characters setting out to embark on their mythic-level career will be keeping Rovagug as a pet?
I mean, I get that that was probably sarcasm, Kthulhu, but it's sarcasm pretty wide off the mark if that's so.
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Tacticslion, we're on separate sides of this issue. Period.
You take a why not/it adds "diversity" approach. Once upon a time, I did too. My overwhelming experience with that, in campaigns and products purchased, is that taking that approach without some judicious editorial oversight results in short-lived games, settings, and systems.
I would like to suggest that there is really no point worrying about this as a factor unique to mythic levels. It's not something that is related or intrinsic to mythic level content, it's just a general truth that sometimes books don't get edited well and turn out crappy. Is there any reason to assume this is more likely to happen with a mythic book than with any other Paizo book?
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If you don't put in some kind of level limit, and you DO define the powers of a god, then you DO have the problems of the ability to take characters to a level where they CAN keep gods.
If you do put in a level limit, the question becomes: What should that level be? And the game already gives us a perfectly reasonable answer: level 20.
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Unless you consider any amount of power over that of a 20th level character to be 'keeping gods', then no, the 'perfectly reasonable answer' is not 20, even if your sole goal is preventing that. This is a poorly thought out line of argument, that assumes that mythic PCs are god slayers, or just power gamers, or whatnot. It also presupposes that players who can challenge the gods is somehow inherently a bad thing. I have no desire to run a god slaying campaign, but I don't have a problem with folks who do.
Steve Geddes, we already get mythic level flavor, without those rules. Nethys, the spawn of Rovugug, fiendish lords, celestial paragons, the Starstone, Tar-Baphon, Baba Yaga, etc. Has all of it caused you to weep? I feel we're on a similar page here with wanting more and more of Golarion, but I'm content to have the faucet running for a long time at its current pace. If mythic flavor isn't causing the dearth of non-mythic flavor right now, what makes anyone think it is going to if you attach rules to it?
I find the entire 'limited resources' argument to be a red herring, BP and co. Paizo has put out stuff with their limited resources before that I didn't care for, but they provide for other people who, like me, play the game. I don't make it a personal crusade to keep those things from appearing in the game. You can be aggressive about what you like and what you don't like if you want, that's your freedom as a human being, but insisting loudly that your desires should always outweigh those of others is a dick move. There are consequences to exercising your freedoms. And simply because I'm willing to see others, including yourself, go ahead of me getting their pet projects and styles realized doesn't mean I'm less of a valued customer than you.
In addition to that, a lot of the stuff Paizo has produced that I had absolutely zero interest in, ended up being interesting. Dragon Kingdoms for instance, provides something to me that I don't particularly seek out, Asian themed roleplaying, but I'll be damned if the material wasn't fun to read, thought provoking, and well done anyways.
I have never even gotten to a level that epic level rules would be needed for, But I would be curious to see how Paizo took on the subject. I think at this point, they feel much more comfortable at deviating from 3.5, so I think a much stronger ruleset is possible than a tweaked 3.5 ELH.
As for stealing resources, there seems be some assumptions there. if epic rules were packaged into a general high-level play book, and epic level monsters were simply added into future bestiaries/campaign setting books as necessary/relevant, than I think they would have a limited hit on the resources. Yeah there would be some modules probably, but these could be run as nice sequels to already published APs.
Keep in mind that before the conversion, epic level material was already presented occasionally within books. See Dragons Revisited, or statted up Mantis God in one of the APs. I doubt there would be any sort of huge increase in coverage beyond the 3.5 days, if the rule set is available.
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(spoiler) an azlanti champion, beheaded the God (spoiler). This didn't truly kill the god, and (spoiler) later died from poison, but she certainly defeated him and greatly weakened him. It took thousands of years and help from his followers to even start to recover.
Thing is; you read this, and you see a great, mythic, backstory, and potential for more great mythic stories in the future.
I, and anyone who has to actually use this information in a game, sees a gigantic heap of Writer Handwaving. Material which I have to excise from the scenarios, in order to begin running the AP.
Maybe this would be an exciting premise on which to base a work of fiction. A work of fiction that had absolutely zero connection with D&D/PF.
This simply won't fly in a game of D&D/PF. Because the players would never stand for it.
Why didn't he die? Cos reasons.
Why couldn't he be restored, before now? Cos reasons.
Now that the BBEGs have the means to restore him, why don't they just, y'know, DO IT? Instead of twirling their mustasches, and allowing the PCs to advance from level 1 to level 15 and stop them? Cos reasons.
All of which 'reasons' are totally invalid long before you reach Epic-level play. And that's a fact known to the PCs and the players who play them.
Regeneration is a level 7 spell. The PCs have been able to regrow bodies onto still-living heads since they were level 13. And so have the NPCs. If they were wiling to risk a caster check, they've been able to buy a scroll and do it long before then.
But wait! Oh, no! A level 11 NPC has a 10% chance of failure!
So buy two scrolls. Or stand next to a lucky halfling, or get a cleric with a lucky domain reroll, and that guy can blow the campaign open several scenarios early, 99 times out of a hundred.
Most of the high-level content out there suffers from the same failure of internal logic. Powers get doled out to PCs in the core rules at alarming rate, yet conveniently forgotten, when it comes time to create meaningful opposition.
And we're not talking scenarios from some untested third-party, working from his garage; this is in official content, from the people crowned as saviours of the hobby.
How many times have we read "The cultists of Qwertyuiop are conducting a ritual to bring their dark god to Earth (or Oerth). The PCs have only ten days to find out about this, and stop them....but wait! The players want to dick around in town, sooooo, okay the ritual takes eleven days...plus two days to allow for that crafting, right....THIRTEEN DAYS TO SAVE THE WORLD!....What? Oh, yeah, you need to do that...thing...for that prestige class...FOURTEEN DAYS!....aaaand we've got two dead PCs, so you'll have to go back to town sell their stuff and equip some random passing stranger, okaay..SIXTEEN DAYS TO SAVE THE WOOOOOOORLD! MWUHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
"Dude, why didn't they just cast gate?"
"Huh?"
"They want to bring their dark god to Earth (or Oerth); why don't they just cast gate? Their high priest is plenty high level, given what else he's casting. It's a standard action. It's quicker than summoning a fiendish rat, ferchrissake. As soon as we started killing his minions, he should have just, like, done it."
(Other players): "Yeah, I was wondering about that. This is dumb. This adventure is stoopid. I'm going to play Call of Duty."
"But...the ritual! The fate of the world...?"
"Dude, they've already spun out the ritual weeks longer than they needed. They could have done this with a snap of their fingers, as soon they hit level 17. If they still haven't done it, it's because they don't want to do it. They're never going to do it. We may as well leave them here. Call their bluff."
And that is why you see little high-level content, let alone Epic.
Not just because the record-keeping for high-level PCs becomes a burden, not because having martial PCs get a few more +1s on their BAB throws the math out of whack.
But because the plotlines that are supposed to evoke awe and wonder, instead provoke sniggers. Because they are all built on the premise that experienced, wealthy, well-connected NPCs will stand around with their thumbs up their butt, for weeks, waiting to be killed by some 'Chosen One' level zero teenage farmhand who's yet to pick up a sword.
If you GM the Cult of the Elder Elemental Eye, The Cagewrights, The Red Wizards of Thay, The Dragon Lords of Takhisis, etc as if they were PCs, you would get a TPK every time, by level 3 or so, as they unleash Armageddon on any upstart hero who starts messing with their minions.
Why? Because the rules say they can. Those same rules the PCs are so keen to point to, when they want to scry-buff-teleport some enemy.
Adding gods into the mix won't result in more exciting stories.
Just the same head-desking, face-palming stories we already get for high-level play, except this time it's gods sat around with their thumbs up their butts, waiting to be killed.
Snorter, I have no idea about you as a person. I'm going to assume you are at the very least reasonably bright and creative.
Allow me to say that your post? It displays neither of these qualities. The answers for "why" are effectively given in the AP, if it comes up. All the very same problems you point out, in fact.
I'd be delighted to go over the numerous errors you made, oversights, and more over time, but for now, I am on an iPad, and doing so would be ugly and fragmented*. After the storms blow over here, and I have time on my desktop, I'll be glad to respond to your individual "problems" with said storyline. This may ease some of your problems in general, but it's up to you.
Also, the generic, "you feel like doing something else so the timeline gets extended" is really disingenuous to this conversation and has nothing to do with epic/mythic and everything to do with a particular playing style.
EDIT:
* As this sentence proved! Silly autocorrect!
EDIT AGAIN: Lousy Auto-correct! His name is Snorter!
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All this talk about 21+ and I keep thinking we're getting an adult version of Pathfinder.
For some people, that would be considered 'epic'.
/deadpan
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Still want mythic.
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Steve Geddes, we already get mythic level flavor, without those rules. Nethys, the spawn of Rovugug, fiendish lords, celestial paragons, the Starstone, Tar-Baphon, Baba Yaga, etc. Has all of it caused you to weep? I feel we're on a similar page here with wanting more and more of Golarion, but I'm content to have the faucet running for a long time at its current pace. If mythic flavor isn't causing the dearth of non-mythic flavor right now, what makes anyone think it is going to if you attach rules to it?
Mythic rules won't make me weep. Mythic rules won't "cause the dearth of non-mythic flavor".
If they devote one module a year to mythic level play, I only get five modules a year, instead of six in the level ranges I'm interested in. I'd like twelve, so "losing" that sixth module would be a disappointment, nothing more than that.
I find the entire 'limited resources' argument to be a red herring, BP and co. Paizo has put out stuff with their limited resources before that I didn't care for, but they provide for other people who, like me, play the game. I don't make it a personal crusade to keep those things from appearing in the game. You can be aggressive about what you like and what you don't like if you want, that's your freedom as a human being, but insisting loudly that your desires should always outweigh those of others is a dick move. There are consequences to exercising your freedoms. And simply because I'm willing to see others, including yourself, go ahead of me getting their pet projects and styles realized doesn't mean I'm less of a valued customer than you.
I don't know if I'm a member of "co" or not, but if so you've misunderstood. I'm not on a crusade and I'm not insisting that my desires should outweigh those of others. Telling paizo my preferences is giving them information, nothing more. I don't insist, demand or require anything from paizo. Telling them what I'd like to do next (or what id rather they avoid) can hardly be a dick move.
Fwiw, I think paizo would be wise to ignore my views, not pamper them. I'm going to buy whatever they put out anyway so my feedback is, in a way, less important than that from a customer who picks and chooses.
In addition to that, a lot of the stuff Paizo has produced that I had absolutely zero interest in, ended up being interesting. Dragon Kingdoms for instance, provides something to me that I don't particularly seek out, Asian themed roleplaying, but I'll be damned if the material wasn't fun to read, thought provoking, and well done anyways.
I fully expect to enjoy paizo's mythic rules. I'm not asking them not to avoid high level rules because I think they'll be bad, I expect they'll be terrific and that I'll enjoy browsing them.
I'd enjoy other stuff more, that's all. And if people who don't want mythic rules don't say anything, the appearance will be of a universal clamoring for them - which isn't the situation. (similarly, I think those happy with the PF monk should feel fine about posting in the "fix the monk" threads. Doing so doesn't mean you're trying to ruin the monklover's fun - it just means you have a different view).
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Be aware that there are serious historical spoilers below. Anything that directly relates to an AP, I'll put in spoiler text.
<SNIPPED FOR SPOILERS>
Thing is; you read this, and you see a great, mythic, backstory, and potential for more great mythic stories in the future.
Why yes, we do!
I, and anyone who has to actually use this information in a game, sees a gigantic heap of Writer Handwaving.
Thanks for speaking for me! By the way, no, that's not true at all. At least for me when I used "this information in a game".
Material which I have to excise from the scenarios, in order to begin running the AP.
Why?
Maybe this would be an exciting premise on which to base a work of fiction. A work of fiction that had absolutely zero connection with D&D/PF.
This is incorrect. See below.
This simply won't fly in a game of D&D/PF. Because the players would never stand for it.
Yours might not. I don't know why, but they might just be rude, or lacking imagination, or perhaps not understanding the rules. Mine did. Worked out well, really.
Why didn't he die? Cos reasons.
"Reasons" being: he doesn't die unless his soul is judged by Pharasma - i.e., unless he's in front of her when he dies, he'll eventually recover, presuming interfering circumstances don't get in his way.
Why couldn't he be restored, before now? Cos reasons.
"Reasons": because his head was thrown into a place that it wasn't able to be reached by said creatures. It was at the bottom of a lake of lava, and his fire-immune allies were all slain, also by said hero. Further, no one knew what she did. The entire place was madness, chaos, and destruction, and a god and near-demigod had just duked it out, complete with magic and spells flying everywhere, nearly unimaginable amounts of energy and destruction being unleashed, and more poison (which is actually equal parts acid, poison, and curse) than you could shake a stick at.
Now that the BBEGs have the means to restore him, why don't they just, y'know, DO IT? Instead of twirling their mustasches, and allowing the PCs to advance from level 1 to level 15 and stop them? Cos reasons.
"Reasons":
First, they have to find his head. Which was ritually damaged by another mage eons ago, to the point it's not even a head anymore, but an artifact. Feel free to get your players to go make artifacts for fun, or incorporate artifacts into the body of another creature. Totally viable by the rules. Or not.
All of which 'reasons' are totally invalid long before you reach Epic-level play. And that's a fact known to the PCs and the players who play them.
Nope. What's "known" to the PCs and players, is, obviously, not very known at all. Your extremely pat "cos reasons" is cute, but it's also dismissive, rude, and very misleading and deceptive. You say, "cos reasons" to make it sound silly. But those reasons are actually very valid and quite interesting for anyone who's, you know, interested in learning and not in putting down someone else's style of play, "cos reasons".
Regeneration is a level 7 spell. The PCs have been able to regrow bodies onto still-living heads since they were level 13. And so have the NPCs. If they were wiling to risk a caster check, they've been able to buy a scroll and do it long before then.
But wait! Oh, no! A level 11 NPC has a 10% chance of failure!
So buy two scrolls. Or stand next to a lucky halfling, or get a cleric with a lucky domain reroll, and that guy can blow the campaign open several scenarios early, 99 times out of a hundred.
Hey, look at all the "this doesn't work" that's going on here. Regeneration doesn't affect
Most of the high-level content out there suffers from the same failure of internal logic. Powers get doled out to PCs in the core rules at alarming rate, yet conveniently forgotten, when it comes time to create meaningful opposition.
Except when you tried, just now, to make that point, you failed due to ignorance (not your fault) and arrogance (your fault).
And we're not talking scenarios from some untested third-party, working from his garage; this is in official content, from the people crowned as saviours of the hobby.
Okay. So it looks like those you just referred to sarcastically as "saviours of the hobby" actually made a solid, interesting workable high-level scenario taking into account the high-level rules that you just dissed for no reason whatsoever.
How many times have we read "The cultists of Qwertyuiop are conducting a ritual to bring their dark god to Earth (or Oerth). The PCs have only ten days to find out about this, and stop them....but wait! The players want to dick around in town, sooooo, okay the ritual takes eleven days...plus two days to allow for that crafting, right....THIRTEEN DAYS TO SAVE THE WORLD!....What? Oh, yeah, you need to do that...thing...for that prestige class...FOURTEEN DAYS!....aaaand we've got two dead PCs, so you'll have to go back to town sell their stuff and equip some random passing stranger, okaay..SIXTEEN DAYS TO SAVE THE WOOOOOOORLD! MWUHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
"Dude, why didn't they just cast gate?"
"Huh?"
"They want to bring their dark god to Earth (or Oerth); why don't they just cast gate? Their high priest is plenty high level, given what else he's casting. It's a standard action. It's quicker than summoning a fiendish rat, ferchrissake. As soon as we started killing his minions, he should have just, like, done it."
(Other players): "Yeah, I was wondering about that. This is dumb. This adventure is stoopid. I'm going to play Call of Duty."
"But...the ritual! The fate of the world...?"
"Dude, they've already spun out the ritual weeks longer than they needed. They could have done this with a snap of their fingers, as soon they hit level 17. If they still haven't done it, it's because they don't want to do it. They're never going to do it. We may as well leave them here. Call their bluff."
Wow! Rude players! And a very generous/push-over GM! And he blames the rule system for failing him? That's... really silly. Really silly. Don't blame the rules for a GM's own mistake. Also, the GM has so many resources to prevent simple things from "working". Gate, for example, is a hoop that's 20 feet in diameter at maximum. If the creature is bigger than that, oh well.
Also:
Deities and other beings who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their presence or personal demesnes if they so desire.
So if one god is trapped in a plane ruled by another, who doesn't want a gate there, no gate. Then, of course, there's permanent Dimensional Anchor effects, Antimagic field effects, Imprisonment effects, or even a Demiplane created with an antimagic field and no gate. Sure, if you're not going to try, you could claim that it's easy enough to have a gate succeed, but really, that's hardly something that would be that simple. Heck, various combinations of several of these effects would make for an amazingly secure prison. The research to learn about this stuff alone would make for interesting rituals. Legend Lore is a great way to get information, but it takes time. Bad guys are likely to use that over, say, Vision, as that spell fatigues the caster, making them more vulnerable. Either way, it costs money every time.
Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord.
So a summoned god (or whatever) might choose not to come through. Gate doesn't say that they can see to this plane, or know anything at all about the gate, only that the gate (from this side) shows the side that it's created from what appears on the other side. Sure, other spells can easily get around that, but if an environments hostile enough ("hostile" can mean many different things), that still might not work.
A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.
A cultist who summons a tremendous evil entity with absolutely no control over it, whatsoever, is a dumb cultist. Even if they worship the thing, they will likely wish to have some bargaining chip to ensure their own survival. Thus, the ritual.
And that is why you see little high-level content, let alone Epic.
... because people sometimes lack the propensity to actually read the rules before claiming they're worthless, and instead rely on fridge logic? I could see that as a reason. A bad one, but a reason.
Not just because the record-keeping for high-level PCs becomes a burden, not because having martial PCs get a few more +1s on their BAB throws the math out of whack.
A valid point! One reason we desire a comprehensive set of rules!
But because the plotlines that are supposed to evoke awe and wonder, instead provoke sniggers. Because they are all built on the premise that experienced, wealthy, well-connected NPCs will stand around with their thumbs up their butt, for weeks, waiting to be killed by some 'Chosen One' level zero teenage farmhand who's yet to pick up a sword.
I find it strange that your NPCs are 1) all-knowing, 2) interested in a bunch of level zero farmhands to even care about them, much less go after them while their working on hypothetical rituals to open an epic gate to summon his god from a plane of entrapment and/or (as many do) choosing to live a life of luxury and decadence.
If you GM the Cult of the Elder Elemental Eye, The Cagewrights, The Red Wizards of Thay, The Dragon Lords of Takhisis, etc as if they were PCs, you would get a TPK every time, by level 3 or so, as they unleash Armageddon on any upstart hero who starts messing with their minions.
Why? Because the rules say they can. Those same rules the PCs are so keen to point to, when they want to scry-buff-teleport some enemy.
In Kingmaker, I have a super-powerful king, a very powerful arcanist, in fact, who wishes to "fix everything", but he certainly doesn't go and plow the farm for the farmers that live there, nor does he go out and fight every monster, bandit, or other agent. That's what he's got armies, generals, wardens, marshals, and other "minions" for. That's what they do. He uses his time, resources, and energy on other projects. Like creating a fountain that allows him to true resurrection at will; and have encyclopedic knowledge of every legal citizen of his country, no matter how large, so he can ensure they live their full life expectancy; and building enough power to tie lawful-good half celestial-fey-kami-guardian spirits to every tree, rock, hill, stream, and pebble in his kingdom; and making every drop of water holy water; and building armies of brass/iron/canon golems. You know, little things, like that.
My king will leave people to their jobs, because he's busy, and he'll only interfere if it becomes really obvious that something is causing tremendous chaos over and above the ability of his people to fix it. He doesn't even need reports about the 5th level, 7th level, or even 10th level bandits, whether captured or not. If one, two, or even three patrols go missing in search of them... it's a tragedy (until he raises them), but he'll likely just send stronger and stronger forces at them, unless they force him to interfere personally. Strangely, that sounds much like what the villains do against up-and-coming heroes!
Again, he's got stuff to do, important stuff. He's busy. If it comes down to him needing to interfere, well, in that case he will. But it'll be a very unusual set of circumstances for that to happen. Like, say, what an adventure path is built around.
Adding gods into the mix won't result in more exciting stories.
Just the same head-desking, face-palming stories we already get for high-level play, except this time it's gods sat around with their thumbs up their butts, waiting to be killed.
For you, maybe, and those who prefer to see the downsides alone. But, obviously, not for some of us who think about things and see how well they do work, instead of how well they don't.
EDIT: we may be on opposite sides of the issue, but Steve Geddes made a good post. Also, I made some super-aggressive words that I edited out. Also finished a sentence.
EDIT PART 2:
I think I should point out that I'm not a huge fan of Serpent's Skull. But do you know why I'm not? Because several of the middle sections seemed rushed and not thought out. I very handily fixed most of the apparent problems with the story line with only a very little bit of thought. The stuff that was spot-on? The high-end high-magic stuff. Very much so well thought-out. It was the low-to-middle levels that gave that AP the all the story-based trouble. Go figure.
If Paizo announced tomorrow: "Hey, we're stepping in and not only reworking level 21+, but we're recommending some changes to the game from 15th+" (or even 13th+)
My response would be: "Hells Yeah."
Everyone gets hung up on the 20th level ceiling. We shouldn't lose site of the big picture — all of the higher levels need a little design help.
or even 10th+
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I'm pretty sure I posted on this pages and pages ago, and I haven't at all kept up with this thread, but I'm still of the opinion that I'd rather Paiz postponed everything else they are working on, AP's, Players Guides, Ultimate Monk 3 (I mean Equipment), and just focus on an Epic Level Book. Triply so if it is NOT Golarion Specific.
I could go for something like The Primal Order that is system neutral.
I... don't actually understand what this means. Please explain?
I could go for something like The Primal Order that is system neutral.I... don't actually understand what this means. Please explain?
The Primal Order part or the system neutral part?
what is "The Primal Order"?
Still waiting on my Turbo Dragons.
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Wanna know one of the reasons that high-level, much less "epic"-level content is so rare? Because by that level, like Snorter said, it's hard to think up plots that actually stand up to the least bit of scrutiny. Either the players should use their high-level powers to make the "threat" a non-issues rather easily, or the BBEG should use his high-level powers to make the threat happen long before the characters get wind of it.
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For some itr can be a pain. It still imo not a good enough reason for Paizo not to publish an epic rulebook. What does not work for one group works smoothly for another. Who do you think Paizo listens to. Group A that says they don't like a product, don't want to see it in a game and everyone else should fell the same way or Hroup B like myself that dislikes a certin product, understands some like it and Paizo should keep publishing it. More often than not it's group B.
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From firearms to ninjas, I feel these kind of things that deviate from the norm of DnD always get a great deal of animosity from players that don't want Paizo to 'waste their time' with publishing it. And really, despite all the excuses on why it shouldn't belong, they end up adding it anyways, because it's always good to have more cool options than just the same old fantasy setting. We've seen firearms, samurai and ninjas, Asian setting... and after all the frothing protests, it turns out that it really isn't the end of the world of Pathfinder.
So yes, while I'm not interested in Epic rules or Psionics or the like, I do think Paizo should publish them for those who want it, as long as it is well done and adds a wealth of cool and fun mechanics.
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I could go for something like The Primal Order that is system neutral.
Hey, I offered to do this and no one seemed interested (with 3.5+ rules). . .
From firearms to ninjas, I feel these kind of things that deviate from the norm of DnD always get a great deal of animosity from players that don't want Paizo to 'waste their time' with publishing it. And really, despite all the excuses on why it shouldn't belong, they end up adding it anyways, because it's always good to have more cool options than just the same old fantasy setting. We've seen firearms, samurai and ninjas, Asian setting... and after all the frothing protests, it turns out that it really isn't the end of the world of Pathfinder.
I don't know, before reading this last post, I was just about to say almost the exact opposite on this same topic. Paizo really pushed the oriental themed stuff, Guns and Gunslingers, and a few other things like the Summoner even though a lot of the time fans didn't want it so much. Summoner is the exception(sort of), but even still, these things keep comming up as some of the worse pars of the game as far as power creep, ruining flavor, and being broken. More options is sometimes a good thing. If they are cool though is a very different thing and purely an opinion. This really doesn't have much to do with Epic (20+) rules.
The longer they wait to set the foundation, the harder it is going to be, the worse the rules will be, and the more difficult to understand and use they will be. Because the longer they wait, the more "core" material they are going to have to include up front, rather than with the books that come out with said new material. This is also something that has been requested over and over since Pathfinder became it's own game.
I could go for something like The Primal Order that is system neutral.Hey, I offered to do this and no one seemed interested (with 3.5+ rules). . .
From firearms to ninjas, I feel these kind of things that deviate from the norm of DnD always get a great deal of animosity from players that don't want Paizo to 'waste their time' with publishing it. And really, despite all the excuses on why it shouldn't belong, they end up adding it anyways, because it's always good to have more cool options than just the same old fantasy setting. We've seen firearms, samurai and ninjas, Asian setting... and after all the frothing protests, it turns out that it really isn't the end of the world of Pathfinder.
I don't know, before reading this last post, I was just about to say almost the exact opposite on this same topic. Paizo really pushed the oriental themed stuff, Guns and Gunslingers, and a few other things like the Summoner even though a lot of the time fans didn't want it so much. Summoner is the exception(sort of), but even still, these things keep comming up as some of the worse pars of the game as far as power creep, ruining flavor, and being broken. More options is sometimes a good thing. If they are cool though is a very different thing and purely an opinion. This really doesn't have much to do with Epic (20+) rules.
The longer they wait to set the foundation, the harder it is going to be, the worse the rules will be, and the more difficult to understand and use they will be. Because the longer they wait, the more "core" material they are going to have to include up front, rather than with the books that come out with said new material. This is also something that has been requested over and over since Pathfinder became it's own game.
I think only the summoner has really been up there with power creep. I've seen some complaints about the gunslinger and a few for the ninja. And I've heard close to no complaints about the samurai. My opinions of class balance are different than the norm on these forums so take what I said with a grain of salt...
What I do disagree with though, was the amount of people that wanted the oriental setting. I was around during that time and there was a great deal more people that wanted it than not. The people that didn't want it were very vocal about being against it but again, I always felt they were just a louder minority. And personally, I suppose I'd rather a company not be afraid of trying new things and angering a vocal minority.
And as for pushing support for it, I'm glad they did support the new setting like they did. If they just half-assed a setting with little support then it would have simply flopped and many fans of a Far East setting would have been disappointed. And given how often more standard settings of fantasy get greater support, it was a nice breath of fresh air for me and many of the other fans of an Asian setting. I enjoyed the Dragon Empires Gazetteer quite a bit. It was no IWSG but I didn't really expect it to have the same page count and support as their bread-and-butter setting.
Guns, I actually think have gotten the least support setting-wise than the other things you mentioned up there. Hell, the pirate adventure path that I felt really should've had guns and cannons didn't, which I thought was disappointing. Sure, they've had mentions in Player's Guides for APs, but always with the caveat (one I agree with) that they should clear it with their GM. I am not really into firearms, for example. But when Paizo came out with the Gunslinger, I was okay with the option because I knew that in my game, I could just say, "This setting doesn't have guns in it so no gunslingers." I knew it was optional just like other classes and I was okay with banning them. It's just like when I have a friend that wants a human-only setting campaign or one guy that only allowed druids, sorcerers, and oracles for a more savage, jungle adventure game. Different classes and rules will always be banned or allowed by the GM to fit their setting, whether they are core or brand new.
But I think that Epic Rules have a lot in common with the above. While you and I may not be interested in them, I feel that having the option for them for those that want to GM this far properly is fine. Furthermore, I'd like to see some support with it. Maybe not the same amount that the Tian-Xia setting received, but supporting what rules you come out with is something that I like in a company. And yes, it is important that they do it well so the mechanics are good and most importantly (in my opinion), it is fun. I may never play Epic rules, but I personally will be okay with people having that option.
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What I was refering to specifically with "pushing the oriental" is more along the complaints about how Paizo basically made it all better just because it's oriental. I remember a lot of people not interested in Dragon Empires, some really wanting it, and some not wanting it at all, with the majority tending to be in the "I don't really care, probably not going to buy it camp", (which also tended to be I hope others who do want it are happy with it). :) There where also a lot of complaints, I recall, about the Tian Xia focus of PFS, (and how the oriental mechanics where overpowered for PFS play, though I haven't had too much personal experience with the later).
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There are many people, myself included, who would count a pure 21st+ product as a "do not buy", simply because I have no campaigns invested in those levels.
By the same token, I would *in a heartbeat* buy a "reverse beginner's box" type product that focused on many aspect of high level play. Such a book would necessarily include 21st+ material, but not be limited to exclusively that.
There are many people, myself included, who would count a pure 21st+ product as a "do not buy", simply because I have no campaigns invested in those levels.
By the same token, I would *in a heartbeat* buy a "reverse beginner's box" type product that focused on many aspect of high level play. Such a book would necessarily include 21st+ material, but not be limited to exclusively that.
That's a fair point. Really, in the end, a company can never make something for everyone. Some people hate the idea of pirates and an evil campaign and avoid Skull and Shackles, while others probably wouldn't want a Numerian Gazetteer because it would deviate far from the standard fantasy troupe. I've actually heard some groans at my FLGS about the new Reign of Winter AP coming out, complaining about having a game on another planet (Triaxus) and some hate on Baba Yaga. And then, there was the "Winter is Coming" cracks. ;)
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Wow! Rude players!How many times have we read "The cultists of Qwertyuiop are conducting a ritual to bring their dark god to Earth (or Oerth). The PCs have only ten days to find out about this, and stop them....but wait! The players want to dick around in town, sooooo, okay the ritual takes eleven days...plus two days to allow for that crafting, right....THIRTEEN DAYS TO SAVE THE WORLD!....What? Oh, yeah, you need to do that...thing...for that prestige class...FOURTEEN DAYS!....aaaand we've got two dead PCs, so you'll have to go back to town sell their stuff and equip some random passing stranger, okaay..SIXTEEN DAYS TO SAVE THE WOOOOOOORLD! MWUHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
"Dude, why didn't they just cast gate?"
"Huh?"
"They want to bring their dark god to Earth (or Oerth); why don't they just cast gate? Their high priest is plenty high level, given what else he's casting. It's a standard action. It's quicker than summoning a fiendish rat, ferchrissake. As soon as we started killing his minions, he should have just, like, done it."
(Other players): "Yeah, I was wondering about that. This is dumb. This adventure is stoopid. I'm going to play Call of Duty."
"But...the ritual! The fate of the world...?"
"Dude, they've already spun out the ritual weeks longer than they needed. They could have done this with a snap of their fingers, as soon they hit level 17. If they still haven't done it, it's because they don't want to do it. They're never going to do it. We may as well leave them here. Call their bluff."
Yeah, gotta agree. I stopped reading here with "Wow this guy's players are jerks".
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Yeah, gotta agree. I stopped reading here with "Wow this guy's players are jerks".Wow! Rude players!How many times have we read "The cultists of Qwertyuiop are conducting a ritual to bring their dark god to Earth (or Oerth). The PCs have only ten days to find out about this, and stop them....but wait! The players want to dick around in town, sooooo, okay the ritual takes eleven days...plus two days to allow for that crafting, right....THIRTEEN DAYS TO SAVE THE WORLD!....What? Oh, yeah, you need to do that...thing...for that prestige class...FOURTEEN DAYS!....aaaand we've got two dead PCs, so you'll have to go back to town sell their stuff and equip some random passing stranger, okaay..SIXTEEN DAYS TO SAVE THE WOOOOOOORLD! MWUHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
"Dude, why didn't they just cast gate?"
"Huh?"
"They want to bring their dark god to Earth (or Oerth); why don't they just cast gate? Their high priest is plenty high level, given what else he's casting. It's a standard action. It's quicker than summoning a fiendish rat, ferchrissake. As soon as we started killing his minions, he should have just, like, done it."
(Other players): "Yeah, I was wondering about that. This is dumb. This adventure is stoopid. I'm going to play Call of Duty."
"But...the ritual! The fate of the world...?"
"Dude, they've already spun out the ritual weeks longer than they needed. They could have done this with a snap of their fingers, as soon they hit level 17. If they still haven't done it, it's because they don't want to do it. They're never going to do it. We may as well leave them here. Call their bluff."
Indeed. Besides, they should play a real FPS, like Payday the Heist ;)
There are many people, myself included, who would count a pure 21st+ product as a "do not buy", simply because I have no campaigns invested in those levels.
By the same token, I would *in a heartbeat* buy a "reverse beginner's box" type product that focused on many aspect of high level play. Such a book would necessarily include 21st+ material, but not be limited to exclusively that.
+1
The game really start fall apart at mid levels, say +10, and +13 its more than obvious. Spell casters and archers are so much more powerful than melee characters and the difference between a good save and a bad save is starting to get painful.