So by that interview it looks like Epic rules are definitely coming within the next few years. Awesome!!!!! I can't wait to see what paizo will do with them.
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Lots of interesting comments about a Pathfinder Epic (rather, "Mythic") from James, James, and Erik in this blog.
(All due credit to Cheapy for pointing the blog out.)
Fascinating.
Indeed, and timely as well with the advent of 5e. Now the two systems have both interesting developments in their future.
Lots of interesting comments about a Pathfinder Epic (rather, "Mythic") from James, James, and Erik in this blog.
(All due credit to Cheapy for pointing the blog out.)
Very interesting. The first I've seen anything about Paizo indicating that they do plan to come out with a Mythic book. It's always been "We've thought about it, but it depends on how much we feel it's needed/how much people want it." Finally some 'kind of' concrete info of "yes, we are working on it and will be coming out eventually."
If this remains true, I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of announcement next year at PaizoCon, or GenCon. Looking forward to it!
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Pathfinder already gave guidelines to play after level 20th. Yes the math starts to fall apart but it is something.
Paizo Publishing may eventually publish rules to take your game into these epic realms, but if you can't wait and would rather not use existing open content rules for epic-level play, you can use the following brief guidelines to continue beyond 20th level. Note that these guidelines aren't robust enough to keep the game vibrant and interesting on their own for much longer past 20th level, but they should do in a pinch for a campaign that needs, say, 22 or 23 experience levels to wrap up. Likewise, you can use these rules to create super-powerful NPCs for 20th-level characters to face.
Experience Points
To gain a level beyond 20th, a character must double the experience points needed to achieve the previous level. Thus, assuming the medium XP progression, a 20th-level character needs 2,100,000 XP to become 21st level, since he needed 1,050,000 XP to reach 20th level from 19th. He'd then need 4,200,000 XP to reach 22nd level, 8,400,000 XP to reach 23rd, and so on.
Scaling Powers
Hit dice, base attack bonuses, and saving throws continue to increase at the same rate beyond 20th level, as appropriate for the class in question. Note that no character can have more than 4 attacks based on its base attack bonus. Note also that, before long, the difference between good saving throws and poor saving throws becomes awkwardly large—the further you get from 20th level, the more noticeable this difference grows, and for high-level characters, bolstering their poor saving throws should become increasingly important. Class abilities that have a set, increasing rate, such as a barbarian's damage reduction, a fighter's bonus feats and weapon training, a paladin's smite evil, or a rogue's sneak attack continue to progress at the appropriate rate.
Spells
A spellcaster's caster level continues to increase by one for each level beyond 20th level. Every odd-numbered level, a spellcaster gains access to a new level of spell one above his previous maximum level, gaining one spell slot in that new level. These spell slots can be used to prepare or cast spells adjusted by metamagic feats or any known spell of lower levels. Every even-numbered level, a spellcaster gains additional spell slots equal to the highest level spell he can currently cast. He can split these new slots any way he wants among the slots he currently has access to.
For example, a 21st-level wizard gains a single 10th-level spell slot, in which he can prepare any spell of level 1st through 9th, or in which he can prepare a metamagic spell that results in an effective spell level of 10 (such as extended summon monster IX, or quickened disintegrate). At 22nd level he gains 10 spell-levels' worth of new spell slots, and can gain 10 1st-level spells per day, two 5th-level spells per day, one 7th-level and one 3rd-level spell per day, or one more 10th-level spell per day. At 23rd level, he gains a single 11th-level spell slot, and so on.
Spellcasters who have a limited number of spells known (such as bards and sorcerers) can opt out of the benefits they gain (either a new level of spells or a number of spell slots) for that level and in exchange learn two more spells of any level they can currently cast.
You might want to further adjust the rate of spell level gain for classes (like paladins and rangers) who gain spells more slowly than more dedicated spellcaster classes.
Multiclassing/Prestige Classes
The simplest way to progress beyond 20th level is to simply multiclass or take levels in a prestige class, in which case you gain all of the abilities of the new class level normally. This effectively treats 20th level as a hard limit for class level, but not as a hard limit for total character level.
Yes, I think most us know that is there. But as it says, it is brief guidelines beyond 20th level. It will be nice to have an actual dedicated post 20th book down the line where the rules will be fleshed out, including feats/abilities for those levels.
Also, from the sounds of it, Erik was saying they were working on a different method than just 'tacking on levels', which is how the brief post 20 rules are set up in the core rulebook.
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Yes, I think most us know that is there. But as it says, it is brief guidelines beyond 20th level. It will be nice to have an actual dedicated post 20th book down the line where the rules will be fleshed out, including feats/abilities for those levels.
Also, from the sounds of it, Erik was saying they were working on a different method than just 'tacking on levels', which is how the brief post 20 rules are set up in the core rulebook.
Instead of an E-6 or E-8 game..... kinda a E-20 game???
Instead of an E-6 or E-8 game..... kinda a E-20 game???Yes, I think most us know that is there. But as it says, it is brief guidelines beyond 20th level. It will be nice to have an actual dedicated post 20th book down the line where the rules will be fleshed out, including feats/abilities for those levels.
Also, from the sounds of it, Erik was saying they were working on a different method than just 'tacking on levels', which is how the brief post 20 rules are set up in the core rulebook.
Here is what Erik said, you can read it and you take what you will from it:
The math underlying the d20 system rules gets shaky enough at the standard high levels, so simply patching another 20 levels on top of that with a bunch of uber feats and some lame monsters doesn't really work for us. We've been experimenting with a totally different concept that allows for the sort of high-octane "mythic" adventuring that we think fans of epic content want, but with a completely different mechanical approach.
So what he means by 'different mechanical approach', I guess we'll find out. But it sounds like it won't just be a continuation of earlier levels.
E20 sounds reasonable, but there is a wide variety of how this could be done, from a one thing per level-up to a points based power-mart system.
And still Paizo could come up with an entirely different system.
Based on comments they've made there and in other threads here, I'm hoping it will be something that might add on to/build from their Kingdom Builder rules and be kind of like the Dominion rulership and Mass Combat rules from the Rules Cyclopedia.
I also note that in that linked post they talk about eventually coming out with rules for the Test of the Starstone that will probably be tied to the Mythic rules, which would also be awesome (especially if the Test were not a one-off thing, but sort of a set of guidelines for similar "Paths to Immortality.")
Not even an abacus?
There will be two people in my group that would by a "Mythic" book.....please do!
We got our characters up to level 20 not too long ago. Really could use the Mythic book. Any idea on an ETA?
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Whatever they come up with, you should definitely NOT need a calculator to play your mythic character. ;)
Unless you jump from using d20 at 20th level to a different system at 21st level, I don't see that happening, since a calculator (or better yet a spreadsheet) is already needed at 20th level.
d20 just plain doesn't support even medium-high levels within the current system well...tacking 16-20 more levels on top of it will result in an absolute mess. And trying to support infinite levels? Utterly ridiculous.
"doesn't support" is a bit much. It's unconvenient for sure, class balance can go to hell without a few houserules and the difference between optimised and non-optimised characters can easily split a group, but still, the game is playable at 15th to 20th level.
That's why I said the system doesn't support it well.
It supports it as well as the players know their characters. That's why I advocate high-level games that exist pretty much only as a result of "playing through" the lower levels.
If you've been playing that 25th-level ranger for 2 years, odds are pretty good you know what his capabilities are. If you sit at a table and someone drops even, say, a 12th-level character in your lap, you'll be far less prepared unless it's a clone of something you usually play.
I see it as far more of a player issue and far less of a game issue. Sure, high-level play is more complicated than low-level play. Why wouldn't it be? If it was exactly as simple as low-level play, why bother? I've seen that system, and wasn't a big fan.
We got our characters up to level 20 not too long ago. Really could use the Mythic book. Any idea on an ETA?
So I take it, no ETA yet on this book?
We got our characters up to level 20 not too long ago. Really could use the Mythic book. Any idea on an ETA?So I take it, no ETA yet on this book?
That is correct.
I still support this idea!
i love the idea of post 20, but I see the 20th level capstone as a marker for completed training. i would rather see post 20 designed prestige classes built to advance class abilities for 10 or fifteen levels and have original abilities and capstones. Too me it seems like going epic sort of disrepects this life goal of the capstone, but a prestige says "ok i've mastered fighter now i am going to focus my training a bit narrower". of course this brings up the whole multiclass issue, but technically you could build a sweet set of prestiges for that too. Prc's dont get as much love in pathfinder as 3.5, so this could bring them some relevence.
just my two cents, sincerely the toasted wolf
+1 for a rulebook on L 20+ characters and gameplay!
A "high-level play" book (L 12+) would also be useful. Maybe rolled together with the L 20+ rulebook?
And that point made earlier (page 1) regarding psionics is indeed valid.
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No desire for more levels after 20th, I remember the mess with the math at 3.5. I do love the Mythic book idea. The DMs for our group now target 16-18 as Epic levels anyway. No one at our table will be buying a Epic levels book for our game but maybe for their own personal reading.
Love a Planes book tied into the Mythic book, we don't use psionics but understand others' desire to have that.
EK
I'll be at GenCon running one-shots that portray high-level play in a different and interesting fashion for those interested.
I rarely have a character that makes it to level 20, much less beyond, but I still would like a Mythic Level Rulebook.
So, I'm throwing in my voice (again) for a psionics (or similar) book first, or official acceptance of Dreamscarred Press' system; in any event most definatly NON-Vancian. After this, a close examination of levels 13-20 and then 20+ (preferably linked together, and not so "seperated", ... i.e. I lsuggest as it suggested on the first few pages and as was well recieved by James Jacobs) to make a more complete system. A mythic book would be the perfect place for god-stats (with heavy emphasis on these being adjustable) and plane-hopping suggestions/rules as well, though the last might be too much for a single book.
IF the high level book comes out first, that's really okay, but high level play would then need to be incorporated into any future psionics (or whatever you'd rather call it, James, I'm not married to that name!), which does make it a bit more awkward. Also, a psi-type book SHOULD include ways of tying it into more "core" style play.
I would understand choosing not to put gods into the high level play book (though a few demon-lords, dukes of hell, and such are musts in this case), I'd strongly recommend tying them into the Golarion High Level book with such things as the test of the starstone, and the outer planes in general.
Gah. Sorry about the ugly post. iPads and I don't make pretty posts (DANG IT, AUTOCORRECT!!!)
A mythic book has already been confirmed to be coming, and that the mechanics will change in some way.
I never doubted that will come, I think the question is when, for the next year maybe?
Confirmed, to me, means officially announced and/or on the production schedule.
With that in mind, confirmed might be a strong word.
I think if Paizo ever does do an official take on psionics, it will be pretty minimal. I'm thinking it will be a sorcerer bloodline, that automatically applies Still Spell and Silent Spell to any spells that are cast.
James Jacobs has suggested similar in the past. My response is the same as Lex Luthor and forty pies: "and that's terrible".
(Seriously. I don't want any more Vancian shenanigans! Call it something else, if you must, but it's really something that needs a strong representative other option, so long as it's balanced with the Vancian stuff. I mean a bloodlines is fine and all, as a small part of it, but it's hardly representative or exhaustive for what anyone wants. Something based off of monk/ninja ki-style stuff would be entirely delightful too. I'm willing to part with more "traditional" names for things like "Yogi" or "Fakir" or whatever, as James has suggested, but Vancian is just frustrating to continue with as "the" option for magical stuff. Heck, basing it around ki-type concepts could allow a difference to be maintained between arcane, divine, and martial, too, which is pretty cool.)
I would also like to see one but I think it needs to be better than the 3.0/3.5 mechanics.
I would also like to see one but I think it needs to be better than the 3.0/3.5 mechanics.
From what I can tell, this is pretty much what everyone thinks. So I suspect that, at least, is going to be a "no worries"-type deal.
I'm on record many times saying this, possibly even upthread, but:
I want them to shore up the entire last third of the existing levels before moving past them. High level play needs a solid foundation before it can reach truly great heights.
The best option of all would be a single rules hardcover that did both! A section for working with high levels and a section for playing past 20th. Could it be Ultimate Campaign?
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The best option of all would be a single rules hardcover that did both! A section for working with high levels and a section for playing past 20th. Could it be Ultimate Campaign?
A very workable compromise I think.
The best option of all would be a single rules hardcover that did both! A section for working with high levels and a section for playing past 20th. Could it be Ultimate Campaign?
I'd like to see that also.
As much as I agree that there would need to be support for higher level (but not yet "Epic/Mythic") play, I think that you would actually need more than half of a book to address Epic/Mythic play.
I'd almost like to see something akin to the player companion line released, but aimed at GMing (maybe a quarterly thing) or a GM's Guide II aimed at alternate or scaled play (including rules for WBL adjustments to CR and ways to minimize "big six" items as well as improving 13-20 play) and an Epic/Mythic Book incorporating and building on that advise.
-TimD
The best option of all would be a single rules hardcover that did both! A section for working with high levels and a section for playing past 20th. Could it be Ultimate Campaign?The introduction at the banquet did not sound like it.
Agreed. It did not, and I don't believe it will encompass those topics.
There are always future books however.
I would also like to see one but I think it needs to be better than the 3.0/3.5 mechanics.From what I can tell, this is pretty much what everyone thinks. So I suspect that, at least, is going to be a "no worries"-type deal.
None of you know what you are talking about, The Epic Level Handbook was a thing of genius. The Mythic book would hope to be half as good.
The two "sectors" could share a bestiary rather effectively, I think.
The best option of all would be a single rules hardcover that did both! A section for working with high levels and a section for playing past 20th. Could it be Ultimate Campaign?
You mean like ELH, because for me it did in chapter 3.
I have never believed that ELH was so bad, sure it is not perfect but considering it has some very good things.
On the other hand, seriously please anyone tell me which is exactly what it does for some people unplayable pass level 12
The two "sectors" could share a bestiary rather effectively, I think.
If you mean a seperate higher level bestiary book, likely so.
If you mean using additional page count in the same book, I would disagree that a traditional bestiary (1 monster per page or more) would be an efficient use for the page count.
Templates or new Epic or Monstrous Only abilities, especially those that modify or address action economy issues and combat pacing, would be optimal for space considerations - maybe with some examples given. (ie. example template "Reactive" - create gains attack of opportunity against melee combatants who miss in melee combat ; example creature "Reactive Marilith".)
-TimD
I'm on record many times saying this, possibly even upthread, but:
I'mma let you finish, but let me interrupt for just one second: you did. And I, for one, agree with you!
I want them to shore up the entire last third of the existing levels before moving past them. High level play needs a solid foundation before it can reach truly great heights.
The best option of all would be a single rules hardcover that did both! A section for working with high levels and a section for playing past 20th. Could it be Ultimate Campaign?
That's what my vote is for! Although, Evil Lincoln, I think I may prefer the "Mythic" nomenclature.
I would also like to see one but I think it needs to be better than the 3.0/3.5 mechanics.From what I can tell, this is pretty much what everyone thinks. So I suspect that, at least, is going to be a "no worries"-type deal.None of you know what you are talking about, The Epic Level Handbook was a thing of genius. The Mythic book would hope to be half as good.
Spoiler:
Just kill me now.
No! I shall make you suffer!
EDIT:
ALSO: I'm actually quite fond of the 3.0 ELH. I mean, I really enjoy it a great deal. It's not balanced, it's horribly written, and I think most of the classes are awkward, at best. But it provides a very interesting, very different play-experience from the rules-set before it. Yes, epic magic is ridiculously "over-powered" (if the GM is permissive).
But here's the thing: as most people have noted, so is non-epic magic. gbonehead has said, near the first page, his largest problem isn't with Epic spells, it's with non-epic spells. 12th-level+ provides 6th level spells, which is really where balance tends to start breaking by a large margin.
(Pathfinder actually made this better, somewhat, by improving warrior-types, but that just means that everything gets more ridiculous, instead of just casters, which was where the off-balance mostly lay before.)
The other thing with the epic-level spells: while "Rule 0" is true throughout the game, Epic Level Magic has one magical note that is fundamental to it's balance: every spell (even the sample ones printed in the book) must get GM approval before they're finalized. This is not "Rule 0". This is a fundamental part of crafting an epic level spell. It literally cannot be done without the benefit of express GM permission. It's written into the rules of crafting an epic spell in the first place. It literally cites the pre-existing spells that they've printed in the book as being off-limits without direct GM permission, for each spell.
Now, this doesn't make it a "good" rule-set, per se. Just substantially more balanced than it appears if you forget about this rule.
Also Epic stuff can be quite fun! But it takes the right kind of campaign and players. Again, I'd recommend reading most any post gbonehead makes on the topic, as he speaks from substantial experience (though, apparently not the kind that makes use of epic level spells). Personally, some of the greatest fun some of my groups have had in all this, was some of the wildest and most chaotic epic-spellcasting things, going really crazy with the stuff, and having bizarre epic magic going everywhere. Good times. But then again, that was just us.