Actually, I support Paizo doing whatever they need to do to stay in business. I'd rather that involved writing more adventures or providing more campaign setting material or something than new character build options but obviously that's not the case. <snip>+1 here.
I think monthly Dungeon magazine sized adventures would be awesome. They can use RPG superstar non-winning submissions, etc.
Kind of like recreating the "Dungeon" magazine model. :)
Hey I can dream, can't I?
The problem with this line of reasoning is that a lot of their new customers (customers since PF came out) are simply not AP purchasers.
So, if they stop putting out things for the RPG, then they lose my $$$, because I don't buy APs or Golarion books. They could put out a 1000 page tome on Golarion, with a 10 by 10 fold out map of the world, full color 3 page fold outs of all the female iconics in risque poses, gold leaf on the page edges, and hand signed by all the devs and I still wouldn't get it. (Well, maybe for the signatures and risque fold outs). :)
The point is, that as good as the Inner Sea Guide may be, since I don't run APs or PFS or Golarion, it's all useless to me. Sure, I might be able to find a few ideas for my homebrew or steal a city or something. But, it's not worth the price to me to buy a $25 to $50 book for 5 pages of useful stuff for me.
You don't see me posting "Cut back on your world books to 1 a year, I don't want you wasting resources on something I'm not going to allow at my table!".
The point is, that as good as the Inner Sea Guide may be, since I don't run APs or PFS or Golarion, it's all useless to me. Sure, I might be able to find a few ideas for my homebrew or steal a city or something. But, it's not worth the price to me to buy a $25 to $50 book for 5 pages of useful stuff for me.
The exact same could be said for the Ultimate books for myself or others like Wander Weir, Evil Lincoln etc.
I dont think anyone is saying stop developing options for the RPG, just it might be better to do an APG-like book every year instead of specific option books a few times per year. This way we also avoid the bloat.
Im still a Paizo fan regardless of what they do, I'll just have less books to buy. Lord knows this hobby can get expensive. :)
YMMV
Late Edit (after more thought)*** I'm at a buying crossroads personally. Do I keep the "Completist" attitude and continue buy everything even though alot of it collects dust? Or do I finally start being more selective with my purchases? The Ultimate books will be my first PDF over HC purchases.
The point is, that as good as the Inner Sea Guide may be, since I don't run APs or PFS or Golarion, it's all useless to me. Sure, I might be able to find a few ideas for my homebrew or steal a city or something. But, it's not worth the price to me to buy a $25 to $50 book for 5 pages of useful stuff for me.The exact same could be said for the Ultimate books for myself or others like Wander Weir, Evil Lincoln etc.
I dont think anyone is saying stop developing options for the RPG, just it might be better to do an APG-like book every year instead of specific option books a few times per year. This way we also avoid the bloat.
Im still a Paizo fan regardless of what they do, I'll just have less books to buy. Lord knows this hobby can get expensive. :)
YMMV
Actually, if you go back and look at the first couple of pages, there were a dozen or so posts that very explicitly said stop producing crunch.
I do agree that it can be said for people on the side of "Slow down the crunch". My point was, I don't feel it's fair or reasonable for me to say "Slow down the useless world fluff stuff", so I feel like that's a two way street.
I'm perfectly fine with people saying "Hey, I'd rather have this type of crunch" instead. Which is what EL was after (although even he admits the first post and title didn't get that across right at first).
I honestly think this is being blown way out of proportion. They've been doing one 'APG like book' a year so far. It's just that this year they split the one book into two because it was so big (UC and UM). It's a rocky place, if you put out UM and then wait a year on UC, you alienate a lot of customers because it feels like all the magic users are getting new toys and the melee types are being kicked to the curb. If you reverse it, all the melee types get new toys and the spellcasters feel curb stomped.
Any time you're putting out a major options book for spellcasters vs martial types, you have to put both out in a fairly short time.
For the first time I can see why Paizo made the decision to roll skill monkeys into the combat book. If they'd had an Ultimate Skillmonkey book, then that would have been their entire year production run.
I honestly think this is being blown way out of proportion. They've been doing one 'APG like book' a year so far. It's just that this year they split the one book into two because it was so big (UC and UM). It's a rocky place, if you put out UM and then wait a year on UC, you alienate a lot of customers because it feels like all the magic users are getting new toys and the melee types are being kicked to the curb. If you reverse it, all the melee types get new toys and the spellcasters feel curb stomped.Any time you're putting out a major options book for spellcasters vs martial types, you have...
I can agree with this.
I can also go a step further and say combine the two books into an apg-like version, even cutting back on the stuff if its oversized. Save the excess material for the following year's APG. This way theres something for martial and magical players every time and you'll have alot of material for a steady run every year.
Kill them all and let Pharasma sort them out!
or better put in this threads context,
Publish them all and let the marketplace sort it out.
Therefore folks who want the extra stuff will buy it, those that don't won't, and Paizo will figure out right quick what sells and what doesn't.
I am blessed to have players that are not so interested in all the new-fangled things and stick to the Core book about 99% of the time. One player (out of 5) took one item and one feat from the APG as it fit his character and one player really wanted a dexterity based fighter, so I showed him the Swashbuckler from Tome of Secrets and he loved it. So this was *my* doing, not his.
As a GM, I would rather have Core + APG only, and since my guys are fine with that, it works for us. That also means I don't have to say no to all the other material. No one has it, including me.
Now, as to what I will buy, other than my AP subscription, is small PDFs that support the APs, and make my life as a DM easier. For instance I have all of Jon Brazer Kingmaker extra material, and Spes Magna Craft Made Easy, so I guess that I am mostly interested in 3PP material.
-- david
Papa.DRB
My Better Half and Me (jpg)
Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
*half-joke*
What they need to sell is a velcro rules mat or campaign notice board, with all the different optional content so we can just hang that above the door to any game and not be bothered by players asking if they can use "this or that". :P
I think you and I agree on some parts and disagree on others, Mr. President. On one hand, I agree with you that two 300 page books of similar types of character options (beginning of the game choices) is a little much. However, I disagree with you on the issue of too many character options. I don't think that's possible, personally. The more options the players have, the more likely they are to create that perfect character that allows them total immersion into the roleplaying experience.
I do feel that as of Ultimate Combat, Pazio is going to have packed on so much material onto the Base Classes and races that they are going to look a little bloated. I would like to see the following things "finished," but that's really about it:
* Enough Archetypes and Feat support to bring the two new classes, Gunslinger and Magus, up to the same level of support as the other Base Classes.
* Favored Class abilities for the Gunslinger and Magus to bring them to par with the other Core Races.
Once those two things are done, I think its time for Pazio to move on. One thing that I have been a little disappointed in is Pazio's apparent aversion to Prestige Classes in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. There's about 10 between the three Splat books that are currently published and I'm told there are a few campaign-specific ones in some of those texts. While I think it makes sense that the rules and material support your core campaign setting, I also don't think its fair to your consumer base to exclude things just because "That would never appear here!" Make it anyway and let your players make that decision for themselves! This applies to additional races, Prestige Classes, etc.
As for things I would like to see:
* Book of Races. This includes Alternate Racial Traits for each race, Favored Class abilities, and Race-Themed feats for the "Bestiary Races" (goblin, orc, aasmiar, etc.) I would also like to see an offical Pazio guide to creating your own races; there are a few good ones floating around the web, but if I'm not mistaken, Ultimate Magic has a guide for making spells, so why not?
* Book of Prestige. This doesn't have to be an entire book completely dedicated to Prestige Classes, but I really think we need more. Pathfinder seems to be in the mindset that there was Prestige Class overload in 3.5 (there was) and therefore Prestige Classes should be avoided (they should not). In my own opinion, 3.5's biggest flaw is that material would be released without apparent regards to existing material, leading to broken combinations and the idea that in order to be a successful character, you had to multiclass. I think the Pazio team could avoid this problem, personally.
THE WHOLE THREAD IS A PETITION FOR MORE RULES — JUST NOT EXCLUSIVELY CHARACTER OPTIONS.<ragequit>
Agree 100%.
*half-joke*
What they need to sell is a velcro rules mat or campaign notice board, with all the different optional content so we can just hang that above the door to any game and not be bothered by players asking if they can use "this or that". :P
Not a daft as it sounds;).
I disagree with OP.
I do like player options books; though I agree that for 2012 I'll be fine with other options - like for example a Tian Xia world guide.
Additionally, I do enjoy the trickle of options that sprinkle in from other sources such as player companions and the like - but a dedicated book that covers topics and options in-depth is always appreciated. I agree that with Core, APG, UM and UC all major needs should be covered. But there ought to be room for a good player expansion every two years or so.
wow this thread is still going strong....... i think everything that could be said has been said except walllooooooo wallloooooo walloooooooooo wallooooo
thank you that is all
And that was the point I was making with the absurdity. You state you are a customer, but no longer of the rules crunch, only the Adventure Modules, Flip Mats, Item cards, and Bestiaries. My point was, at this point, you have self-removed yourself from the "Customer of RPG Core Books" market. It is not that you don't buy anything, but you do not buy the things you are saying you don't want anyway. So... as a business, would I listen to the person who has said "I am satisfied now" and not make more books, or would I listen to the current customers who are spending money on the product line, and have evinced every intention to continue spending money?When a company does a market survey, they don't ask people who don't buy widgets what they would like in a widget. They ask people who buy widgets.
Maybe Market researchers ought to have a separate survey for people that don't buy widgets to find out why they don't buy widgets, and attempt to convert them, the more customers you can get the more profitable a business becomes!
ATM I have purchased Core Rule book, APG, GMG and both Bestiaries. I have awaiting in the local game store the inner sea world guide which I consider a flippant spend, but a nice addition as it's the setting for Golarion and "Core Rules Crunch".
Even though the Golarion setting was released under 3.5 to I never bothered as I'd got more than enough world stuff to play with!
I have Dark sun 2E, Greyhawk, Eberron and Karameikos settings sat upon my bookshelves!
The reason I'm worn out with player options books is not due to an aversion of Rules Crunch it's IMO over saturation. It's just the same as having a player sit at the table and say "My character is dual wielding Drow that's torn between good and evil! His name is Drizz'l" You just know it's going to be a long road to walk!
I'd like a lot more diversity rather than focusing on Player Options only. The better option book IMO was the GMG, simple chase rules which were just elegant, Ship combat systems and a community Stat block which presented a skill bonus / penalty for common player interactions that was just inspirational.
That said I did like the APG and all it's rules crunch to, and I haven't stated forthright that I wouldn't buy any more books!
I think I'm done GMing Pathfinder anyway except for PbP APs.
I don't have time to run Pathfinder games even when I'm unemployed. If I'm going to run stuff in the future it will be SW or FATE based. I love Paizo, I love Pathfinded, and I love the APs, I just don't have time to run this stuff as a 40yo father of nearly teenage boys.
Amen. At 42 with three daughters approaching their teen years, I'm in a similar boat. Right now I'm running two Pathfinder games - one of which is for my daughters - but after that, I'll probably stick to Savage Worlds.
I love the Pathfinder system, but wow, to do it right really does seem to require a substantial time commitment on the part of the GM.
I think I'm done GMing Pathfinder anyway except for PbP APs.
I don't have time to run Pathfinder games even when I'm unemployed. If I'm going to run stuff in the future it will be SW or FATE based. I love Paizo, I love Pathfinded, and I love the APs, I just don't have time to run this stuff as a 40yo father of nearly teenage boys.
Amen. At 42 with three daughters approaching their teen years, I'm in a similar boat. Right now I'm running two Pathfinder games - one of which is for my daughters - but after that, I'll probably stick to Savage Worlds.
I love the Pathfinder system, but wow, to do it right really does seem to require a substantial time commitment on the part of the GM.
I can see why I think that since (a) my world is completely rolled from scratch and I'm running an epic campaign and (b) I keep a bi-weekly journal of the events which usually runs 4-6 pages per game.
However, how is this the case for someone who runs only published modules? I do run a second game on occasion for my son and some of his friends - that one is only published materials and doesn't seem to require much prep time at all.
However, how is this the case for someone who runs only published modules? I do run a second game on occasion for my son and some of his friends - that one is only published materials and doesn't seem to require much prep time at all.
Fair and valid point.
For me personally, it's the world/adventure building creativity that makes it fun. I don't mind playing in published adventures, but I have no interest at all in running them.
I'm not upset. I just feel the weight of Ultimate Magic's release bearing down on my campaign, and I realize that I've hit my personal limit.
I'd like to see Paizo return to providing material that can be used after character creation. For me, the game is about more than building PCs and building NPCs to fight those PCs. Adventure content is what brought me to Pathfinder, and I think that "rule" books can be more than just character options.
I understand we're locked in for Ultimate Combat. After that, please, let's get back to more expansive, campaign-based material.
New player options are not intrinsically a bad thing, but I would rather get them spread out in smaller books so that I can process them into my campaign. With these huge player option tomes, it really amounts to having another 300 page pile of rules to familiarize.
I don't even have adversarial players (although pity those who do when a book like this comes out) ... it's a simple matter that my players WILL read this book, and want the things in it, so I more or less have to read it also to keep them happy.
I know that James Jacobs has voiced a similar opinion, and so I am content in the knowledge that I'm not out in the cold on this issue. Still, I think feedback about the product lines is really important, so I created this thread for people to express their opinions.
Who feels as I do?
Who feels differently and why?
It's all opinion, so please state yours and leave other people to theirs.
I more or less agree with you EL, though I don't exactly see it as a burden at this point. Players will want to use a few things here and there from UM and UC, and I will want to use a few things here and there as it is appropriate for the current campaign. I will familiarize myself with those rules. Dribs and drabs.
As you have mentioned, JJ answered this sentiment a while back in another "mega-thread" on this topic, and I thought his answer was meaningful and quite good. We should probably start linking to that answer every time a thread like this blows up.
I understand the idea of "front-loading" and I am fine with that as long as we spend a while (1-2 years) on all of the other stuff, it will be fine.
For the record, I like what I see in APG, UM and UC.
A book of RolePlay 101. You know, the kind of friendly book you hand out to a new player, describing interesting ways to create a complete and flavorful character, giving ideas and tips and all this stuff; could even help DMs create better NPC backgrounds. (The GMG already has NPC stat-blocks though.)
A book that would quantify or illustrate the ability scores; what's the typical 10 INT means in terms of personality, compared to a 7, or 13, or 18, and the same according to every ability score.
A book that could offer suggestions and cues about "how to roleplay X class". Really, I think this is somewhat unclear at times in the core books. I'd like 2 or 3 versions of the actual written Paladin Code. And maybe optional risks of personnality loss when raging?
Briefly, optional suggestions that are purely fluff and roleplay value.
I think after Ultimate Combat my interest in new rule options will wane for a bit, at least until I've had time to play around with the two "Ultimate" books for a while.
Put me down for a big book of multi-level NPCs of every race and class out there, I'd pre-order that now if offered since adapting NPC stat blocks from other sources is a staple of my DMing.
NOTE: I am obliviously very angry about this thread. I am angry that people can be so selfish and obtuse when trying to get their way. You don't have to buy, memorize or even reference everything Paizo releases, but telling this company to stop making excellent products is like telling someone to kill themselves.
A few things:
(a) We're not asking them to stop making excellent products, we're hoping to help nudge the direction of future excellent products,(b) I'm not sure how we're being selfish or obtuse to make the request -- or at least not any more so than someone who is making a different request.
(c) While trying to be gentle to avoid any accusation of making some sort of ad hominem I would say that your anger (and the resulting tone and suicide reference) is somewhat misplaced and, in fact, irrational.
...but telling this company to stop making excellent products is like telling someone to kill themselves.
Ignoring for a moment that no one is asking them to "stop making excellent products":
You're right...doing so would be JUST LIKE telling someone to kill themselves!1!
:rolleyes:
While trying to be gentle to avoid any accusation of making some sort of ad hominem I would say that your anger (and the resulting tone and suicide reference) is somewhat misplaced and, in fact, irrational.
Understatement of the week. That guy needs meds, stat!
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This was a long thread to read.
It was stated several times that UM and UC will be the end of heavy crunch books for some time. It was not specified how much time that is, exactly - but I believe that for the next two years or so there will not be a book of that type, except perhaps Ultimate Psionics.
The next logical step in the development of PFRPG 1.0 is High Level Play. Call it Epic, or whatever you like, but there is a certain demand for that. i have fond memories of 2nd Ed. Player's Options books, Combat&Tactics, Spells&Magic and High Level Adventures. In fact, I plan to rework a lot of stuff from those books and use it in my games.
Now, what I'd like to see, I'm not sure that Paizo will give me. I would really love a big Unearthed Arcana, Pathfinder Apocrypha type of book. I want:
1. Spell point rules; I am not satisfied with Words of Power, but even if I were, there are a lot of fantasy spellcasting tropes that can be used in roleplaying.
2. Point-buy class building; I am somewhat satisfied with archetypes, but I really loved the way you could decide to replace your fighter's armor proficiency for more skills or magic resistance.
3. Point-buy race building.
I could go on and on, but I don't think I'll get this type of book. Paizo has decided to put all the rules they want published in several books and I think that we won't see any new non-Golarion crunch for quite some time.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Ok after working through the thread, here are my three C-bills.
Now, what I'd like to see, I'm not sure that Paizo will give me. I would really love a big Unearthed Arcana, Pathfinder Apocrypha type of book.
Pathfinder Apocrypha would be an amazing title. Thank you for that.
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Now, what I'd like to see, I'm not sure that Paizo will give me. I would really love a big Unearthed Arcana, Pathfinder Apocrypha type of book. I want:1. Spell point rules; I am not satisfied with Words of Power, but even if I were, there are a lot of fantasy spellcasting tropes that can be used in roleplaying.
2. Point-buy class building; I am somewhat satisfied with archetypes, but I really loved the way you could decide to replace your fighter's armor proficiency for more skills or magic resistance.
3. Point-buy race building.
I could go on and on, but I don't think I'll get this type of book. Paizo has decided to put all the rules they want published in several books and I think that we won't see any new non-Golarion crunch for quite some time.
Many of these have been done by 3PP for Pathfinder. And you can always use the 3.x UA (especially spell-points). Why wait for Paizo?
Now, what I'd like to see, I'm not sure that Paizo will give me. I would really love a big Unearthed Arcana, Pathfinder Apocrypha type of book.Pathfinder Apocrypha would be an amazing title. Thank you for that.
Agreed it was a great title for Warahmmer for thier compendium of new rules, magic, etc from White Dwarf/ adventures.
This is a book I would like to see as our group dont do AP's or Golaron to have the rules sets that were tested out in AP's/ setting books compiled would be awesome.
Pathfinder Apocrypha would be an amazing title. Thank you for that.I've been begging for the book with that name since Beta. :)
I was lobbying for something like "Undiscovered Paths", myself. ;-)
I was lobbying for something like "Undiscovered Paths", myself. ;-)Pathfinder Apocrypha would be an amazing title. Thank you for that.I've been begging for the book with that name since Beta. :)
Paths Less Traveled?
Paths Less Traveled?I was lobbying for something like "Undiscovered Paths", myself. ;-)Pathfinder Apocrypha would be an amazing title. Thank you for that.I've been begging for the book with that name since Beta. :)
Wow...that was three years ago that I was asking for a book with class variants. Well, I can't complain about that!
It seems we have several parties here.
1.No more rule books
2.No more rule books if it means they have to be support by AP's
2b. I won't buy AP's if I have to buy rule books also.
3.To many rules spread across to many books makes feats to hard to find.I guess they might fit into number 4 though.
4.More rule books in single books like the APG
5.More rules, but in smaller books.
I am mostly a number 4 type person. I hate having to carry a lot of books or looking up several different files if I am on the computer. I used to scan pages that I need so I could avoid carrying books. If I use something from 3.5 that is what I still do now.
edit: added 2b
Director of Games
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Hey there Folks,
I will admit that I have only skimmed this thread, and while I understand the sentiments here, understand that we have been very restrained in our approach to core book releases. 3 books a year is a very small number compared to other game lines, especially when at least one each year is focused entirely on GM tools.
I know these books are big and have a lot of bits in them (oh how do I know), but nobody mandates that you use every part of them in every one of your games. I myself pick and choose depending on the campaign and my mood. You should too. Its your game after all. That philosophy, however, does not preclude us from giving you more options to chose from. It can be a lot to absorb, but we are trying to be responsible with the rate at which this content is released. Its not always easy.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
It seems we have several parties here.
1.No more rule books
2.No more rule books if it means they have to be support by AP's
3.To many rules spread across to many books makes feats to hard to find.I guess they might fit into number 4 though.
4.More rule books in single books like the APG
5.More rules, but in smaller books.I am mostly a number 4 type person. I hate having to carry a lot of books or looking up several different files if I am on the computer. I used to scan pages that I need so I could avoid carrying books. If I use something from 3.5 that is what I still do now.
I don't think I've seen a single poster advocate 1 or 2. Not in those terms. I've seen the opinion planted in many posts of the opposite opinion, but nobody actually wants Paizo to stop publishing rules altogether. (a few have said they are no longer interested in buying them. That's different.)
Nor do I feel that any of the numbered points capture my own position: the same pace of rulebooks, but less emphasis on character options in the future. Character options are okay, but there are better topics to be broached, IMO.
Hey there Folks,
I will admit that I have only skimmed this thread, and while I understand the sentiments here, understand that we have been very restrained in our approach to core book releases. 3 books a year is a very small number compared to other game lines, especially when at least one each year is focused entirely on GM tools.
I know these books are big and have a lot of bits in them (oh how do I know), but nobody mandates that you use every part of them in every one of your games. I myself pick and choose depending on the campaign and my mood. You should too. Its your game after all. That philosophy, however, does not preclude us from giving you more options to chose from. It can be a lot to absorb, but we are trying to be responsible with the rate at which this content is released. Its not always easy.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Thanks Jason,
I think you're doing a great job (although I do admit there have been some issues with proofreading in UM, although those seem to be mostly issues with last minute changes and deletions that didn't get smoothed out properly with other sections of the book referencing them).I like the current pace and amount of tools vs options. I know not everyone does, and they are entitled to that opinion, as long as they don't try to shout down mine. :)
It seems we have several parties here.
1.No more rule books
2.No more rule books if it means they have to be support by AP's
3.To many rules spread across to many books makes feats to hard to find.I guess they might fit into number 4 though.
4.More rule books in single books like the APG
5.More rules, but in smaller books.I am mostly a number 4 type person. I hate having to carry a lot of books or looking up several different files if I am on the computer. I used to scan pages that I need so I could avoid carrying books. If I use something from 3.5 that is what I still do now.
I don't think I've seen a single poster advocate 1 or 2. Not in those terms.
Nor do I feel that any of the numbered points capture my own position.
Several posters have called it unfair and claimed they feel they have to buy books if they are in the AP's. We then point out they are online. I have not read every post to see if that changed their mind though.
I am done with new rule books. I got the APG, ultimate magic does not call to me, and combat became lets make it super Asian power hour, for no reason.
I just do not want more rules for what is already a rules heavy game. And I am don e with the Ap's until they stop forcing me to buy the new books to play them.
I think forcing folks to have new optional books to play the AP's is a bad, bad call.
Anyhow the point is I am done with splat books.
PS:The list is not all inclusive, just the what I seemed to get.
I think your post had several points, one of which was to break the books down instead of one big book. A few PFS members have said the number of books was daunting.
It seems we have several parties here.
1.No more rule books
2.No more rule books if it means they have to be support by AP's
2b. I won't buy AP's if I have to buy rule books also.
3.To many rules spread across to many books makes feats to hard to find.I guess they might fit into number 4 though.
4.More rule books in single books like the APG
5.More rules, but in smaller books.
I'm type 4.I just can't justify buying anything that is not hardcover,but i can and will buy up to 2 hardcovers per month.And i'm dirt poor.
But 2 hardcovers per month is a liiiitle more than 2 video games.And less than 2 AAA video games,but it's more fun.
Even if i NEVER get to use them-it's 150+ album pages of good reading.
Put me in the more options is never a bad thing camp. i have never understood the bloat arguement and I probably never will. I have played under numerous DM's over 18 years of play and all of them simply banned the things they didnt want at their table. I view character gen books as a car lot. I prefer to go someplace where I have choices of color, engine size, body type...not just TRUCK, CAR, VAN.
I don't think I've seen a single poster advocate 1 or 2. Not in those terms. I've seen the opinion planted in many posts of the opposite opinion, but nobody actually wants Paizo to stop publishing rules altogether. (a few have said they are no longer interested in buying them. That's different.)Nor do I feel that any of the numbered points capture my own position: the same pace of rulebooks, but less emphasis on character options in the future. Character options are okay, but there are better topics to be broached, IMO.
Some of it is misunderstaind, some of it is the perspective on what should be in a 'rulebook'. Certainly there is a difference between an option book and a dm centric book, and there was some clear miscommunication on that front. However, there are definately posts in the first 3 pages of the thread that could easily give the impression of points 1 and 2.
It's not a ridiculous strawman, it's a legitimate point that's being made by using absurdity. It's directed at those that have posted "I'm not buying UM or UC or any other player option books past APG". If that is your choice, then you are already a non-customer. Paizo has to listen to the people actually spending money.
Uh not quite. Paizo has stated many times that the APs are the bread and butter of the company. So just because you stop buying rule books does not mean you are no longer a customer.
Paizo needs to be conscious that they don't drive away AP purchases because of rule book bloat. If a percentage of the customer base does not buy UC (for example) but the next two APs heavily depend on UC then Paizo has lost a percentage of AP sales. That's the point of stating what you will and won't buy. It all impacts Paizos bottom line.
--Clear implication of 'no more rulebooks if they get added to AP's
I am cutting off additions to my campaigns after Ultimate Combat, at least in this size category. If there are setting books and the like, I'll allow new options on a case-by-case basis. But as for giant amounts of new spells and feats, Ultimate Combat is my cap.
--Says to me at least 'I want setting focused books in small chunks, not harback RPG line books
I agree wholeheartedly.
I hope Paizo has now satisfied its "player option urges" and can move on. Let the PFRPG rules stand on their own, they're done now.
I especially am dreading seeing the player option stuff cluttering up the DM content. It bugs me to think that now I will start seeing Gunslingers, Alchemists, and Ninjas or whatever showing up in APs so I'll have to become familiar with these things in order to run the APs as written. At the very least I'll have to know what purpose these things serve if I want to replace them. This will be a real drag for me since my players don't like anything but core stuff, so as a DM I have to learn new player rules just to replace them with something else, great.
What I always loved about Paizo was the way they explored and utilized the existing rules in new and unique ways. I don't need them to keep creating new player focused rules and options.
I have always felt the sales of players option books can be misleading. I think these products have the lowest "sale to use" ratio of any RPG product. I think players buy them to have something to read, DMs buy them to see what the players are reading, but most people don't end up using them for various reasons.
If read carefully, he is talking about player options I think, but if skimmed quickly (like you kind of had to in this thread) the bolded text jumps out as "NO MORE RULEBOOKS!" And it definately continues the point of 'I dont want new rulebooks in my APs'
I'll be personally fine with Ultimate Combat and no big generic splats more. Focused world-specific stuff like Magic of Inner Sea is fine, from time to time.
Setting books instead of 'RPG Line' books
Like I said above I think the rules are done. Let them breathe and lets see what you (Paizo) can do with them.Well said. As has been noted by Paizo before, they're in the business of telling stories with their Adventure Paths, and the rules are there to support the storytelling.
--hard not to get the no more rulebook impression from this.
So while the thread definately escalated more then it should have, there was fuel for the fire from some relatively early posts.
It seems we have several parties here.
1.No more rule books
2.No more rule books if it means they have to be support by AP's
2b. I won't buy AP's if I have to buy rule books also.
3.To many rules spread across to many books makes feats to hard to find.I guess they might fit into number 4 though.
4.More rule books in single books like the APG
5.More rules, but in smaller books.I am mostly a number 4 type person. I hate having to carry a lot of books or looking up several different files if I am on the computer. I used to scan pages that I need so I could avoid carrying books. If I use something from 3.5 that is what I still do now.
edit: added 2b
You left one out:
0. Perfectly happy with how things are going.
Plenty of those out there, but happy people tend to be less vocal. Not all of them (I think I chime in plenty), but based on the boards you'd think that everyone is clamoring for a change - and I'm guessing that is less true than it might seem.
I just wanted to mention that I will be buying and probably even using UC and UM.
This thread was intended to be a discussion of what other options there are for rulebooks going forward. There were some really good suggestions along the way, I'd rather not see them missed for the sheer volume of vitriol that churned up.
I just wanted to mention that I will be buying and probably even using UC and UM.
This thread was intended to be a discussion of what other options there are for rulebooks going forward. There were some really good suggestions along the way, I'd rather not see them missed for the sheer volume of vitriol that churned up.
And even the vitriol that didn't turn up ;)
And even the vitriol that didn't turn up ;)
Or turned up in the posts of those complaining about its presence.
***Recursion limit reached***
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Director of Games
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Except when the rules may show up in the APs and may or may not be fully statted out. That forces me to at least be aware of the new options and at most be familiar with them by either buying the rulebook in question (in either paper or electronic form) or hunting the rules down on the web.
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I don't understand this at all, it's very cryptic, but that's fine. I know you are trying to run a business and you need to keep up the subscriber numbers up. Just try to remember why Paizo took the path it did, from what I recall that was to tell the stories you wanted to tell. I'm not sure why that takes hundreds of pages of rules every year but I'm no expert.
If I try and put a bunch of text on the cover of our products, I think the graphic designers might cut me.
All joking aside though, we do put this material up in our online database as soon as we can, so even if you do not own the book, it is easy for you to find for free.
That is really about the best we can do on that angle.
As for the second point, I am not 100% sure you can assume that the same motivations that led to us publishing the Core Rulebook continue to apply to everything we do now, over two years later. We have an active game system to support. Failing to put out new content for that system in a direct way leads to a host of problems that I'd rather not go into here.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I know these books are big and have a lot of bits in them (oh how do I know), but nobody mandates that you use every part of them in every one of your games.Except when the rules may show up in the APs and may or may not be fully statted out. That forces me to at least be aware of the new options and at most be familiar with them by either buying the rulebook in question (in either paper or electronic form) or hunting the rules down on the web.
This is why I suggest you indicate on the cover of the AP what non core rules it uses so the the buyer can beware.
I myself pick and choose depending on the campaign and my mood. You should too. Its your game after all.Yes I do this that's why I don't buy anything I don't use but when I buy a pre made adventure like an AP and it already contains something I choose to avoid I'm stuck. Everything I need to run an AP (that is not in the core rulebooks) should be in the AP.
This is why I suggest you indicate on the cover of the AP what non core rules it uses so the the buyer can beware.
That philosophy, however, does not preclude us from giving you more options to chose from. It can be a lot to absorb, but we are trying to be responsible with the rate at which this content is released. Its not always easy.
I don't understand this at all, it's very cryptic, but that's fine. I know you are trying to run a business and you need to keep up the subscriber numbers up. Just try to remember why Paizo took the path it did, from what I recall that was to tell the stories you wanted to tell. I'm not sure why that takes hundreds of pages of rules every year but I'm no expert.
Hunt down? You go to the website and click on the class or feat section as an example. You hit control F, if the list is too big and type one or two words in. Your browser takes you to the correct spot. You read.
It is not just about telling stories for them. They also need to provide us with the tools to tell our own stories. Some of us have enough tools, but others want more. 1 or 2 books a year is hardly bloat. If this were another company there would be about 20 books out by now, probably more. Most of their books(non hardback) are flavor with the occasional feat thrown in.
I just wanted to mention that I will be buying and probably even using UC and UM.
This thread was intended to be a discussion of what other options there are for rulebooks going forward. There were some really good suggestions along the way, I'd rather not see them missed for the sheer volume of vitriol that churned up.
I want a low magic setting as in Iron Kingdoms level low magic. I want it more than I want to see epic rules.
Put me in the more options is never a bad thing camp. i have never understood the bloat arguement and I probably never will. I have played under numerous DM's over 18 years of play and all of them simply banned the things they didnt want at their table. I view character gen books as a car lot. I prefer to go someplace where I have choices of color, engine size, body type...not just TRUCK, CAR, VAN.
*Insert obligatory Ford Model T joke here.*
I want a low magic setting as in Iron Kingdoms level low magic. I want it more than I want to see epic rules.I just wanted to mention that I will be buying and probably even using UC and UM.
This thread was intended to be a discussion of what other options there are for rulebooks going forward. There were some really good suggestions along the way, I'd rather not see them missed for the sheer volume of vitriol that churned up.
I would rather see a rulebook that helps you dial up and down magic then a setting. Settings dont help a big chunk of groups. A way to handle the mechanical and world building issues that occur when you try to do something to the magic item and spellcasting system would be way more useful in my opinion.
I would rather see a rulebook that helps you dial up and down magic then a setting. Settings dont help a big chunk of groups. A way to handle the mechanical and world building issues that occur when you try to do something to the magic item and spellcasting system would be way more useful in my opinion.I want a low magic setting as in Iron Kingdoms level low magic. I want it more than I want to see epic rules.I just wanted to mention that I will be buying and probably even using UC and UM.
This thread was intended to be a discussion of what other options there are for rulebooks going forward. There were some really good suggestions along the way, I'd rather not see them missed for the sheer volume of vitriol that churned up.
I would be supportive of that!
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want at least 1 new crunch book a year besides a beast/npc book.
bewilders me that we don't get new races & many actually useful magic items for low & mid level. paizo, y do you think we want 2 use the same damn stuff all the time? lack of races is not so bad(racial alt class features are wonderful by the way) but come out with the magic items already, PLEASE.
for races, preferably on the line of zero level adjustment. though splitting 1/2&1/2 or so of the same book for savage species style would also be nice.
the magic item compendium was one of the best books in the hobby because it gave WORTHY options for gear selection. not just super expensive items no low/mid level pc could afford that results in all such pcs buying the same lame staple stuff from the back of dmg reprinted into pf. this is the same stuff 4 close 2 40 years. i am not saying u cannot continue your printing of terrible mechanical options because they make "interesting flavor." i am asking 4 numerous NEW items worth the gp a pc pays for it